It's my impression that opening up the dealers halls to the public is intended to help achieve 4 goals:

Increase York attendance to help pay for the show
Increase York attendance to help the selling dealers make more sales
Increase York attendance to help the manufacturers/importers reach a wider audience
Increase TCA membership.

Keeping the member halls closed to the public is likely to still be required by the PA Tax department in order for them to remain tax free. And it provides some incentive for joining the TCA.

Sorry, but you cannot please everybody.

C W Burfle posted:

Keeping the member halls closed to the public is likely to still be required by the PA Tax department in order for them to remain tax free. And it provides some incentive for joining the TCA.

Sorry, but you cannot please everybody.

Well, a wise man once said,

"You can't always get what you want, but if you try, sometimes you get what you need."

Time will tell if this experiment pans out.

Jerry

C W Burfle posted:

Sorry, but you cannot please everybody.

And it is pretty much futile to even try!

The Eastern Div. and TCA National should be looking at the "big picture" to determine what best suits the mission and goals of those entities. I will view this new initiative as successful when I see an actual (significant) increase in attendance AND an actual (significant) increase in TCA membership.

As I noted in an earlier post: I imagine there may possibly be a short-term spike in York Meet attendance as area folks "check it out" for a time or two, but I also anticipate a drop in TCA membership, almost immediately, as many "only-belong-to-go-to-York" TCA members determine that Friday and Saturday attendance will work for them (as public participants) at lower overall cost (including hotel/meals/etc.).

We'll just have to wait and see, which I am certainly willing to do. In the meantime, I'll continue to enjoy the Meet and the great people. The Eastern Division deserves a whole lot of commendation for having put on a truly great event over a good many years.

Another wise man said:

"You see, you can’t please everyone so you gotta please yourself"

baltimoretrainworks posted:

Well, a wise man once said,

"You can't always get what you want, but if you try, sometimes you get what you need."

Time will tell if this experiment pans out.

Jerry

Ah yes, some Sympathy For The Devil then?

Bobby Ogage posted:

The bottom line to me is that if I have join the TCA to attend the York Meet, I will not go. However, I would pay a reasonable entry fee, not to exceed $20 to attend York without any restrictions on entry to the buildings.

Bobby , I think I hear your train coming around the bend and I don't think it is going to stop at York.  Probably for the same reason I don't get allowed backstage at a music concert, or all the tours of the Hearst castle; the admission I paid didn't include those additional features.  If I were willing to pay the fare like the other people did, then I could.  Sometimes you just can't get a free ride and you have to pay the fare.  Currently it does exceed $20.

This thread is so much fun. I can't wait for April to get here.  235 day's till April meet.

Can't believe this thread is still rolling....

Each of us are free to join, or not join TCA. I applaud ED-TCA for allowing the public to pay to go to Orange Hall Fri-Sat. I hope it is a great moneymaker for them and the folks in that hall. IF I receive an email from ED-TCA soliciting further input/suggestions, I'll be happy to respond. Otherwise, they're big boys and I'm confident they can figure this thing out without our never ceasing chatter.

eddie g posted:

I can't wait for April to get here. 

Yeah, and then there will be another 9-10 pages of commentary about how bad/good this change was........  It'll probably tick off a lot of electrons,

The bottom line to me is that if I have join the TCA to attend the York Meet, I will not go. However, I would pay a reasonable entry fee, not to exceed $20 to attend York without any restrictions on entry to the buildings.

I don't know what to say about this comment whether a person has interest in the type of trains in the halls or not. Comparing York to an $8 per day train show - Allentown - here's what I think we have in York:

Silver Hall $12 per day / Blue Hall $12 per day / Orange Hall & Purple Halls combined $15 per day /Red & White Halls combined $8 per day. Total value of attending York for one day $47. I think I may be low as you could fit at least 3 Allentown shows in the Orange Hall alone. York is a major buy - sell event. You can't cheapen it. Not in admission or the cost of the goods for sale. You have to pay for the access to products and customers. York is highly under valued and apparently not well understood. If the York meet was understood, this thread would be a lot shorter.

mwb posted:

eddie g posted:

I can't wait for April to get here. 

Yeah, and then there will be another 9-10 pages of commentary about how bad/good this change was........  It'll probably tick off a lot of electrons,

Yes, but just think of the fun that will be had, ostensibly, for all those voices who can say they were right.

Interesting that everyone wants to pull up the "paint drying" and "beating dead horses" memes but things have changed.  Any chance that the discussions were partial instrumental in the changes?  If so I guess it didn't hurt did it?

I said it a couple of times now, this discussion has been rather tame and has a lot of folks participating civilly. 

This IS a discussion forum, after all (or is supposed to be). The more reasonable discussion--despite one's individual point of view or perspective--the better. When you feel you have had enough and just can't take it any more, simply move on to another topic or thread.

Allan Miller posted:

This IS a discussion forum, after all (or is supposed to be). The more reasonable discussion--despite one's individual point of view or perspective--the better. When you feel you have had enough and just can't take it any more, simply move on to another topic or thread.

AMEN!

I still think it's humorous that this statement started on a small message someone received in an e-mail. (I never received this notice from the TCA or the ED ). All the rest of the comments are purely conjecture!  We are probably not going to know how this is going to work (or not work) until  nearer to April. THEN the comments are gonna fly!

bigo426 posted:

York is highly under valued and apparently not well understood.

Sounds to me like if this statement is true (and I have no clue as I've never been to the show), that'd be an excellent reason to open it to the public, so they can get more money from admissions and greater exposure to the hobby among the 'unwashed masses.'

Heck, the NMRA puts on a massive model train show at every convention, but it's also open to the public for a gate fee. It gets the venue and organizers more money, greater chances for vendors to make sales, and a greater exposure to the hobby than if it were limited to members only.

The only valid reasons I could find to prevent this are:

• That's the way we've always done it
• Let's keep this just for the 'insiders'

Both of which are horrible reasons to not change.

 I never received this notice from the TCA or the ED.

IMHO, it would have been inappropriate for TCA national to send out notifications to anybody. It's not their show. The York train show, is an Eastern Division function.
To me, it is disappointing that the Eastern Division does not communicate with division members. If anything was to make me drop out of the TCA, it would be the lack of communications from my division.  (Not that I intend to drop my membership). I am an Eastern Division member. I cannot remember the last time I received anything other than a show notice from the division.

Most closed, member only clubs ARE just for the insiders.  That's why you join, is to be inside with the other members, and support the costs of what the group of insiders are doing.  If you want the benefits, then you join and share the costs.

Don't feel lonely if you want to boycott, not join, and not pay your share of the burden to support the TCA or the EDTCA.  There are millions of people in just the USA alone, who boycott the TCA and the York show.  They also refuse to join or pay admission.

OK.

"Enough!", said the bosses,

As they looked at the losses,

"It's time that we take new direction!"

"The dealers aren't happy,

Attendance is crappy, 

And the budget's in need of correction!"

So Eastern Division,

They made their decision, 

A new policy they'd employ.

In April next year,

At the York meet held dear,

They'd invite the grand hoi polloi! 

Then shortly thereafter,

Came cries of "DISASTER!",

And balancing hoots of "HOORAY!"

Midst threats of defection,

Came some predilection, 

And hope for a new day come May!

Yet some things are certain,

'Ere York's final curtain,

There's always a problem to grapple.

From cell phones to photos,

Those strollers, floor arrows,

And, oh yes, the virtues of scrapple! 

'Til then I would rather

Get less in a lather.

Raise suds in a glass!  You and me!

As we work hard as one

Who should always have fun

Running trains in the World's Greatest Hobby!! 

.

.

.

KD 

Well after seeing 9 pages on this subject, it is time to chime in with my thoughts. York twice a year is a 3 day vacation for me and many of my friends. At $50 for annual dues and $14 for each event, York costs me a whopping $39 for each event. Sharing a room at the Yorktown Inn costs us about $74 for each person. So, not taking into account about $25 for gas and about another $80 for food, the entire 3 days away from home and reality costs me about $190 out of pocket expense for a 3 day vacation.

Seeing my friends from around the country and oh yeah, secondary, buying trains is well worth it. Hands Down!!

For all the "negative nancies" here, open your eyes, let EDTCA try something new to reverse the negative attendance on the BEST TOY TRAIN MEET IN THE USA!

YORK RULES!

J Daddy posted:

...I notice that Trainz Market place did not even bring any trains... why in the heck show up?

 

 

 

 

They don't bring any product because they can't charge their ridiculous buyer's premium.

Ted Bertiger posted:

For all the "negative nancies" here, open your eyes, let EDTCA try something new to reverse the negative attendance on the BEST TOY TRAIN MEET IN THE USA!

I don't know squat about the York event, itself. I live thousands of miles away and am very unlikely ever to attend.

But after reading a lot of posts in this thread, I realize I've seen this mindset before: Some folks would rather an event die a slow death due to dwindling attendance than let the unwashed masses dare to invade their inner sanctum. I've watched a few other types of shows die for this very reason. Folks of this ilk (I've never liked ilk, much) want to keep stuff the way it was, not realizing that the hobby, like almost everything else, is slowly changing into something that it never was before. Folks of that ilk just can't accept this.

The NMRA seems to be accepting this concept of change and at least trying to do something about it. I've been watching the National RR Historical Society slowly drown in this sea of change, mostly because of the folks that insist on clinging to the old ways. Folks, people aren't going to library meeting rooms to watch people narrate their repetitive slides from a creaky projector anymore.

They're also not buying 3-rail like they used to.

If York is to be an insulated event where no non-member can get it (even at a premium admission), then it deserves exactly what it is destined for; to eventually have attendance draw down to a trickle, then no vendors will bother to show up.

Frankly, I find it hilarious that people don't think that allowing people to show up wouldn't boost membership. I joined the NMRA after a visit to a national train show where I learned what they were all about. I never would have joined had I not gone to that show.

p51 posted:

Ted Bertiger posted:

For all the "negative nancies" here, open your eyes, let EDTCA try something new to reverse the negative attendance on the BEST TOY TRAIN MEET IN THE USA!

I don't know squat about the York event, itself. I live thousands of miles away and am very unlikely ever to attend.

But after reading a lot of posts in this thread, I realize I've seen this mindset before: Some folks would rather an event die a slow death due to dwindling attendance than let the unwashed masses dare to invade their inner sanctum. I've watched a few other types of shows die for this very reason. Folks of this ilk (I've never liked ilk, much) want to keep stuff the way it was, not realizing that the hobby, like almost everything else, is slowly changing into something that it never was before. Folks of that ilk just can't accept this.

The NMRA seems to be accepting this concept of change and at least trying to do something about it. I've been watching the National RR Historical Society slowly drown in this sea of change, mostly because of the folks that insist on clinging to the old ways. Folks, people aren't going to library meeting rooms to watch people narrate their repetitive slides from a creaky projector anymore.

They're also not buying 3-rail like they used to.

If York is to be an insulated event where no non-member can get it (even at a premium admission), then it deserves exactly what it is destined for; to eventually have attendance draw down to a trickle, then no vendors will bother to show up.

Frankly, I find it hilarious that people don't think that allowing people to show up wouldn't boost membership. I joined the NMRA after a visit to a national train show where I learned what they were all about. I never would have joined had I not gone to that show.

It was the same type of reaction when women wanted to vote.

It was the sane type of reaction when women wanted to vote.

Can you explain that one?
What does opening a train show to the public have anything to do with women's voting rights?

York has 4 member halls and 1/2 of each the orange and purple dealer halls house tables that could be considered as member sellers. They and the show would survive without the manufacturers participating and still be the largest show around. The large hobby store dealers may or may not participate depending on competition. The sideline manufacturers and Lionel etc. probably wouldn't unless they could see an advantage over the competition not participating.  Those who have never attended might not understand that the majority of the show is resale items. York cannot be compared to ANY current train shows. It still more resembles a GIANT version of the types of weekend train shows that existed in the northeast during the late 70's. To compare it to anything available today is incorrect and the only way to realize that is to attend the show and tour all the buildings.   I'm not into HO, N or Z but the only quantities I've seen while searching for S gauge of any type are Gilbert or Lionel HO. Anything else is usually at "junk" tables.  At York the smaller gauges don't seem as popular or collectible to most members. I support the try at allowing the public to attend the dealer halls as it may bring in additional sales and satisfy the demands of the manufacturers and hobby dealers. I really hope the public will not be the type that is just burning time with the kids and purchasing Thomas stuff just to quiet the kids. No way should the public be allowed into member halls. The PA tax dept will crack down, the average tableholder will bolt and all will be lost as the show will resemble a lame Greenburg show or a big E exposition. We shall see.

I wonder if any of the members will want to move to the dealer halls?  Maybe for some, the extra exposure to the public might be worth the cost of paying or collecting sales tax.

Jim

jd-train posted:

I wonder if any of the members will want to move to the dealer halls?  Maybe for some, the extra exposure to the public might be worth the cost of paying or collecting sales tax.

Jim

Register for a tax number, record keeping, added income tax forms since you're now a business....  Sure, everybody loves more forms and multiple tax offices to deal with depending on whether you a PA or other resident. Gosh, that sounds like fun and entertainment to me and an added dimension for my hobby. 

mwb posted:

jd-train posted:

I wonder if any of the members will want to move to the dealer halls?  Maybe for some, the extra exposure to the public might be worth the cost of paying or collecting sales tax.

Jim

Register for a tax number, record keeping, added income tax forms since you're now a business....  Sure, everybody loves more forms and multiple tax offices to deal with depending on whether you a PA or other resident. Gosh, that sounds like fun and entertainment to me and an added dimension for my hobby. 

Man-o-man, Martin, you got that right! As a simple hobbyist considered a "dealer" in the Orange Hall due to my modest Layout Refinements business, I can assure everybody that the Pennsylvania Sales Tax department is absolutely unrelenting about forms, dates of submission , and payments. I am so glad I always paid the tax bill on time for each October and April TCA Meet. But now that I have surrendered "my spot" in the Orange Hall and will likely not be displaying ever again, the PA tax man is still after me for submission of the forms for $0.00 items sold, zero presence in the hall, and zero taxes collected. Gruesome, man. I'm not sure if it will ever end.

frank m

Moonson posted:

mwb posted:

jd-train posted:

I wonder if any of the members will want to move to the dealer halls?  Maybe for some, the extra exposure to the public might be worth the cost of paying or collecting sales tax.

Jim

Register for a tax number, record keeping, added income tax forms since you're now a business....  Sure, everybody loves more forms and multiple tax offices to deal with depending on whether you a PA or other resident. Gosh, that sounds like fun and entertainment to me and an added dimension for my hobby. 

Man-o-man, Martin, you got that right! As a simple hobbyist considered a "dealer" in the Orange Hall due to my modest Layout Refinements business, I can assure everybody that the Pennsylvania Sales Tax department is absolutely unrelenting about forms, dates of submission , and payments. I am so glad I always paid the tax bill on time for each October and April TCA Meet. But now that I have surrendered "my spot" in the Orange Hall and will likely not be displaying ever again, the PA tax man is still after me for submission of the forms for $0.00 items sold, zero presence in the hall, and zero taxes collected. Gruesome, man. I'm not sure if it will ever end.

frank m

They will have their pound of flesh,

No big deal here in Maryland.  If you are not a business and selling at a show, simply fill out one short form and mail in a check afterward.  Nothing else to do.

Jim

Since PA has no personal income tax, I'm sure a lot of states are easier with tax collection than PA. Since the show is in PA, the problem exists.

Moonson posted:

mwb posted:

jd-train posted:

I wonder if any of the members will want to move to the dealer halls?  Maybe for some, the extra exposure to the public might be worth the cost of paying or collecting sales tax.

Jim

Register for a tax number, record keeping, added income tax forms since you're now a business....  Sure, everybody loves more forms and multiple tax offices to deal with depending on whether you a PA or other resident. Gosh, that sounds like fun and entertainment to me and an added dimension for my hobby. 

Man-o-man, Martin, you got that right! As a simple hobbyist considered a "dealer" in the Orange Hall due to my modest Layout Refinements business, I can assure everybody that the Pennsylvania Sales Tax department is absolutely unrelenting about forms, dates of submission , and payments. I am so glad I always paid the tax bill on time for each October and April TCA Meet. But now that I have surrendered "my spot" in the Orange Hall and will likely not be displaying ever again, the PA tax man is still after me for submission of the forms for $0.00 items sold, zero presence in the hall, and zero taxes collected. Gruesome, man. I'm not sure if it will ever end.

frank m

I used to have a sales tax license (not train related) and kept it active for several years after I stopped actually selling anything.  Yeah, I had to submit the yearly form for $0 sales.  Took me all of 10 minutes each year, and I had to buy a stamp until it went electronic a few years ago.  

Sheesh, some folks will complain about anything.  Figure it into the cost of doing business.  If it isn't worth it, stop doing it and move on to something else.

I have said this here before and it bears repeating

If some of you were given $1 million in $100 bills, you would complain about how heavy it was.  

Unbelievable. Nine pages about...what?

Nobody is complaining here. This has been a very civil thread.

eddie g posted:

Nobody is complaining here. This has been a very civil thread.

Probably one of the most civil threads on the subject. 

Stop by and check out this TCA Thread. Your executive board is doing the right stuff for the TCA . 

https://ogrforum.com/t...on-new-forum-sponsor

Say Hi and give a welcome.

Gary

Mallard4468 posted:

Moonson posted:

mwb posted:

jd-train posted:

I wonder if any of the members will want to move to the dealer halls?  Maybe for some, the extra exposure to the public might be worth the cost of paying or collecting sales tax.

Jim

Register for a tax number, record keeping, added income tax forms since you're now a business....  Sure, everybody loves more forms and multiple tax offices to deal with depending on whether you a PA or other resident. Gosh, that sounds like fun and entertainment to me and an added dimension for my hobby. 

Man-o-man, Martin, you got that right! As a simple hobbyist considered a "dealer" in the Orange Hall due to my modest Layout Refinements business, I can assure everybody that the Pennsylvania Sales Tax department is absolutely unrelenting about forms, dates of submission , and payments. I am so glad I always paid the tax bill on time for each October and April TCA Meet. But now that I have surrendered "my spot" in the Orange Hall and will likely not be displaying ever again, the PA tax man is still after me for submission of the forms for $0.00 items sold, zero presence in the hall, and zero taxes collected. Gruesome, man. I'm not sure if it will ever end.

frank m

I used to have a sales tax license (not train related) and kept it active for several years after I stopped actually selling anything.  Yeah, I had to submit the yearly form for $0 sales.  Took me all of 10 minutes each year, and I had to buy a stamp until it went electronic a few years ago.  

Sheesh, some folks will complain about anything.  Figure it into the cost of doing business.  If it isn't worth it, stop doing it and move on to something else.

Sheesh? It's the process of stopping having to make those bi-yearly $0.00 reports that has not been clear to me. I'd like very much not to have to keep submitting those forms for the rest of my life. But thanks for the condescension. It helped marvelous well and fits right in with the convivial atmosphere of the forum. Did it make you feel superior and wonderful about yourself, Mallard?

Sheesh!

richabr posted:

Since PA has no personal income tax, I'm sure a lot of states are easier with tax collection than PA.

They don't? Gee, I've been paying a PA personal income tax since 1960.

richabr posted:

 the show would survive without the manufacturers participating and still be the largest show around. 

I agree. They don't actually sell stuff at York, but they do have some free catalogs (which the dealers have for a dollar), and you can take a "selfie" with Mike Wolf. If you see something you want, and a York dealer does not have it, you are out of luck. 

Register for a tax number, record keeping, added income tax forms since you're now a business....  Sure, everybody loves more forms and multiple tax offices to deal with depending on whether you a PA or other resident. Gosh, that sounds like fun and entertainment to me and an added dimension for my hobby. 

I will not do out of state shows because I don't want to deal with tax forms. I have my NYS tax number. I submit my forms and pay what's due. It would not be worth the effort to sell in any other states.

I think the York show lost a lot of causal sellers when they went to three days. I know several people, including myself who quit setting up because of it.  the ED does not need to make the situation any worse by doing something that causes tax numbers to be required in member halls.