Joe Hohmann posted:richabr posted:Since PA has no personal income tax, I'm sure a lot of states are easier with tax collection than PA.
They don't? Gee, I've been paying a PA personal income tax since 1960.
Joe,
I thought that some income streams, like pensions, social security, and IRA withdrawals (after age 59 1/2) are exempt from PA income tax.
I know of a number of folks who chose to retire to PA, from neighboring states, for this reason.
Jim
If some of you were given $1 million in $100 bills, you would complain about how heavy it was.
Let's test that supposition. You put $1 million in $100 bills in front of me and we'll see whether I complain about its weight as I walk out the door with it.
Hooray!!! 10 pages of meaningless speculation........
mwb posted:If some of you were given $1 million in $100 bills, you would complain about how heavy it was.
Let's test that supposition. You put $1 million in $100 bills in front of me and we'll see whether I complain about its weight as I walk out the door with it.
Hooray!!! 10 pages of meaningless speculation........
LOL, the only difference between you and me Martin is you wouldn't even see me walking out the door, just the door closing as if some sort of apparition had gone through it!
This fella named Al once poked his head into our break room at work and said, "That's it guys, I'm retiring." By the time we got out of our seats he was already at the exit doors some 150 feet away! That's the way to do it. No time for pleasantries.
jd-train posted:Joe,
I thought that some income streams, like pensions, social security, and IRA withdrawals (after age 59 1/2) are exempt from PA income tax.
I know of a number of folks who chose to retire to PA, from neighboring states, for this reason.
Jim
That's a very small list of exceptions, contrasted to the previous claim someone made of "not having personal income tax". (believe it or not, not everyone in the TCA and/or selling at a table is retired - I have at least 20-25 years to go before I can consider that dream)
While PA may not be as tax burdensome as some other states, it has it's hand out in a few "little" ways (in addition to the PA income tax).
Many townships have an additional "wage tax" that has you pay an additional 1% (or more) locally (you get to pay this either by working in the township or living there). My township joined that club this year, lucky me! If you work in Philadelphia, it's currently I think 4% (maybe something similar in Pittsburgh - these 2 major cities also share the honor of an additional percentage on regular state sales tax (on everything) and additional tax on alcohol served at a restaurant).
Some of this is offset by lower real estate taxes than neighboring states of NY/NJ and exemptions of sales tax for some life necessities such as most clothing.
To get back to the York Meet aspect of this, if member table holders ever need to deal with tax collection, I'm out. I'm on a really small scale. I don't do enough sales to even clear my expenses of coming to York, I'm still in "hobby mode". I've just tried for the last few years to unload a few items that I've decided I don't need to hold on to anymore. My sales may offset or pay for my purchases (spending less since I'm at my table instead or roaming around for much of the meet), but I'm certainly still in the red for meet attendance, just not as much as if I was purely shopping.
And while we are at it, if members have to deal with sales tax, it will basically end up eating into the price realized for any item. Most buyers are not going to accept paying an additional 6% for the items after the negotiated purchase price. Since dealers often figure the tax into their final negotiated price, buyers will expect the member table holders to do the same. I don't see the buyers adding 6% to what they want to pay to cover the sales tax.
-Dave
TCA membership has no value to me, so I am negative of having to pay the $50 TCA membership dues to enter the York show. However, I am willing to pay a reasonable $20 entrance fee to enter York without any restrictions. When the foregoing becomes the policy of the TCA, I will return to York but I doubt it will happen anytime soon.
Bobby Ogage posted:TCA membership has no value to me, so I am negative of having to pay the $50 TCA membership dues to enter the York show. However, I am willing to pay a reasonable $20 entrance fee to enter York without any restrictions. When the foregoing becomes the policy of the TCA, I will return to York but I doubt it will happen anytime soon.
So you want all the privileges of membership...without the membership?
TCA membership has no value to me, so I am negative of having to pay the $50 TCA membership dues to enter the York show. However, I am willing to pay a reasonable $20 entrance fee to enter York without any restrictions. When the foregoing becomes the policy of the TCA, I will return to York but I doubt it will happen anytime soon.
As it is many of us believe that opening the dealer halls to the public is going to cost the TCA memberships. If they opened the whole show to non-members, there is no doubt it would cost the TCA a whole lot more members. And while some table holders might welcome the theoretical increase in traffic, others will drop out because they don't want their goods exposed to those not familiar with how to handle their high end stuff. And when the high end stuff disappears from the show, even more people will drop out. Why travel hundreds or thousands of miles for the common stuff you can find near home or on-line. And why people into current stuff just don't buy locally or online is a mystery to me.
C W Burfle posted:.......And why people into current stuff just don't buy locally or online is a mystery to me.
Not to go too far off topic, but dealing with shipping items and the schedules of when the trucks do their rounds is not a small inconvenience to some of us.
I'd rather walk into a store and make a purchase than order something on-line. This is especially a problem for items that are shipped with signature required (I am not suggesting high value items should be shipped without signature required).
Your choices are either to be home whenever the truck arrives or call the shipping company when they leave the note on your door and ask them to hold it at their facility where you can go pick it up yourself. For me, the local UPS "hub" where they hold stuff is ~ 14 miles away (and involves a toll road to boot). For items not requiring a signature, I need to worry about whether the item will still be there when left in plain sight form the street (not that my area is high crime or anything, but I also only have about 30-40 feet from the street to my porch, so it's easy to observe items left).
And then there is shipping damage risk. Far too much of a diversion to cover here.
Bobby Ogage posted:TCA membership has no value to me, so I am negative of having to pay the $50 TCA membership dues to enter the York show. However, I am willing to pay a reasonable $20 entrance fee to enter York without any restrictions. When the foregoing becomes the policy of the TCA, I will return to York but I doubt it will happen anytime soon.
Doesn't sound like membership has "no value" to you. You obviously have some level of interest in the meet, it's just not at a price point you are willing to consider.
CW, regarding current 'stuff' a lot of time folks want to see what they are buying and the items may not be available locally. Add in that a lot of folks like to talk to the manufacturing representatives and have a look at pre-production samples. Also, some folks pick up items at York to save of shipping costs (which might be significant) for large or heavy items. Lastly, some folks report that they receive some great deals at York from some of the dealers.
Jim
"When the foregoing becomes the policy of the TCA, I will return to York..."
The TCA has not, does not, and will not, set York meet policy. How many times do we need to remind people of this?
jd-train posted:Joe Hohmann posted:richabr posted:Since PA has no personal income tax, I'm sure a lot of states are easier with tax collection than PA.
They don't? Gee, I've been paying a PA personal income tax since 1960.
Joe,
I thought that some income streams, like pensions, social security, and IRA withdrawals (after age 59 1/2) are exempt from PA income tax.
I know of a number of folks who chose to retire to PA, from neighboring states, for this reason.
Jim
The income tax on Social Security, pensions, and 401Ks are lifted, but I'm still paying tax on investment income, even though I'm 74.
That being said, what does that have to do with selling at York?
Joe, its kinda a follow up to your previous post. 
Besides, if we just stuck to the topic, there is no way we would have gotten 10 pages out of this topic! 
Jim
So you want all the privileges of membership...without the membership?
Doesn't sound like membership has "no value" to you. You obviously have some level of interest in the meet, it's just not at a price point you are willing to consider.
If I were to rejoin the TCA, York is the only function I would participate in. Thus any other aspects / privileges of the TCA are of no value to me. Is it worth $50 to enter York because I must join the TCA? No. There is no train show on this planet worth a $50 entrance fee. However, I would pay up to a $20 entry fee to York. I am not asking for something for nothing.
If I were to rejoin the TCA, York is the only function I would participate in. Thus any other aspects / privileges of the TCA are of no value to me. Is it worth $50 to enter York because I must join the TCA? No. There is no train show on this planet worth a $50 entrance fee. However, I would pay up to a $20 entry fee to York. I am not asking for something for nothing.
Those who don't believe that belonging to the TCA is worth the fifty dollar annual dues certainly do not need to defend their decision. Heck, I am not a member of any number of train clubs.
If you were to rejoin the TCA, and attend York twice a year, each show would cost $45, or $15 a day. Attend once a year, and then the costs almost double to $70 for one show.
I belong to the TCA (Eastern Division), have skipped the last few York shows, and don't know when I'll get there again. So, when it comes to shows, I am paying $50 for nothing.
As far as the admission fee goes: My buddy recently asked me if I'd like to see Elvis Costello. Not being a big fan, I might have been willing to pay somewhere around $50 to see him. Trouble is, the tickets are (were) around $100 each. I won't be going. (Great seats, but the tickets won't get you backstage.)
Its the same thing for the York train show, if the price of admission is too high, or the rules of attendance unacceptable, then don't go.
To be clear, I see nothing wrong in making a statement about the admission price and access restrictions. I am certain that the Eastern Division folks who manage the show are aware of what is posted here.
Hi BURF, I didn't realize that you have missed the last several meets at York. Hope you will be going again soon. Are you retired, or still working?
Hi BURF, I didn't realize that you have missed the last several meets at York. Hope you will be going again soon. Are you retired, or still working?
Retired.
If admission to York at say $10/day also included a temporary membership to the TCA would it then be possible to open up the member halls to all persons admitted without the need for the PA sales tax to be collected? Some of you "old codgers' could bring your "yuppie" kids and their "orange soda drinking" grand kids along and share this grand hobby with them. It would be a good way to drive up membership and if the people liked what they saw, maybe they would join up after some mass market mailing after the show.
Train Geek
Train_Geek posted:If admission to York at say $10/day also included a temporary membership to the TCA would it then be possible to open up the member halls to all persons admitted without the need for the PA sales tax to be collected? Some of you "old codgers' could bring your "yuppie" kids and their "orange soda drinking" grand kids along and share this grand hobby with them. It would be a good way to drive up membership and if the people liked what they saw, maybe they would join up after some mass market mailing after the show.
Train Geek
What you are advocating has always been possible with the Guest program. No need to join if you want to attend just once to see if it's worth it for you. Full access to all the halls as a guest, you just couldn't come back again unless you joined.
As to the exact way you spelled it out, I don't think the any PA tax man is that stupid to not see right through such an arrangement, so I'm sure the EDTCA would never propose such a thing.
-Dave
Want more people exposed to the hobby? Want model railroading to be back in the mainstream of our culture? Let's not put this just on organizations like the TCA or events like the York Meet.
It will take a concerted effort by any and all companies who manufacture and/or sell model trains to advertise on a broader scale. I'm not talking about just advertising in hobby publications, I'm talking about national advertising. Radio and television commercials, national magazines, billboards and any other way possible. And train shops to advertise locally. The hobby has to be put in front of people like everything else that grabs our attention.
Model train organizations are a result of the popularity of the hobby. If all the attributes of this great hobby are presented to the masses, vendors and manufacturers won't need to worry about show traffic or sagging sales. If it's presented to be as great an activity as we know it is, more people will gravitate to it. How many times have we read on this forum that people outside the hobby didn't even know Lionel still existed or still made trains?
If they can charge $90 for a caboose and $2000 for a locomotive, it's time to start advertising to the public what a great pastime model railroading is. That will get people into the hobby.
So, I beg the question. Has anyone else seen this alleged Email from either the Eastern Division or National HQ? I haven't. Can anyone confirm? Or are we up to 10 pages of simple hearsay and speculation?
Happy member of TCA Atlantic Division
...... are we up to 10 pages of simple hearsay and speculation?
I hope so.
The suspense is killing me..... I hope it lasts.
So, I beg the question. Has anyone else seen this alleged Email from either the Eastern Division or National HQ? I haven't. Can anyone confirm? Or are we up to 10 pages of simple hearsay and speculation?
I think that two dealers have reported receiving the Email, which should only come from Eastern Division, it's their show. As I wrote earlier, the Eastern Division is very poor at communicating with its division members or anybody else for that matter.
Derek the original poster has reported it. Derek does not create hearsay, he reports. His reputation in reporting facts as the host of the Notch 6 Podcast is unquestionable.
Perhaps the Eastern Division has "run it up the flag pole to see if anyone salutes".
CJ Meyers posted:Has anyone else seen this alleged Email from either the ... or National HQ?
Not meaning to be difficult here, but many here don't seem to be following along at home. The National does not dictate Eastern Division policy, come on people this isn't rocket science. And as CW has pointed out , communication with the ED is not one of their best features.
Jerry
C W Burfle posted:So, I beg the question. Has anyone else seen this alleged Email from either the Eastern Division or National HQ? I haven't. Can anyone confirm? Or are we up to 10 pages of simple hearsay and speculation?
I think that two dealers have reported receiving the Email, which should only come from Eastern Division, it's their show. As I wrote earlier, the Eastern Division is very poor at communicating with its division members or anybody else for that matter.
Anyone know how many TCA/ED members actually have computers and email addresses? I don't but I do know by far the majority of members register for York via snail mail. That might be an indicator.
Many have missed the point that the ED is in the red and mailings cost many thousands of dollars. Besides would you expect them to mail this notice to all TCA members or only Eastern Division members?
I am sure the announcement will be made at the October show and also the registration booklet for April.
Anyone who wants to comment on how they could improve the experience just has to show up at the next business meeting, 8AM October 22nd.
Pete
Bonus points to MWB for the Willy Wonka / Gene Wilder quote.
As Marty said, I would not put any information out there that I did not have in black and white or confirmed. My reputation rides on providing accurate information. This info was a bullet point sent to York dealers by the Eastern Division on August 17th.
Anyone know how many TCA/ED members actually have computers and email addresses? I don't but I do know by far the majority of members register for York via snail mail. That might be an indicator.
Many have missed the point that the ED is in the red and mailings cost many thousands of dollars. Besides would you expect them to mail this notice to all TCA members or only Eastern Division members?
I've been an Eastern Division member for better than 30 years. The division has never been good about communicating with its members, even in flush years. At a minimum, ED members should have been notified. (heaven forbid we should ever be polled on anything)
Has the Eastern Division made any attempt to gather emails, either directly from members, or from National?
I do not think that the number of people who register via snail mail is any indication of how many TCA members or ED members have computers.
IMHO, it is insanity to trust a small, non-profit organization like the Eastern Division or the TCA itself with credit card information. So snail mail it is. (Remember the hacked ED website of a few years ago?)
Notch 6 posted:Bonus points to MWB for the Willy Wonka / Gene Wilder quote.
One tries to meet certain standards..........
C W Burfle posted:....IMHO, it is insanity to trust a small, non-profit organization like the Eastern Division or the TCA itself with credit card information. So snail mail it is. (Remember the hacked ED website of a few years ago?)
The ED uses a third party vendor to handle the online registrations.
Opening York up to the public on Saturday is a reasonable thing to try. Let's see how it goes! Got to incentivize the dealers - large and small alike - and nothing does it like buyers!
Attention, attention!!
We are about to enter Page Eleven of this continuing discourse.
Time for an intermission...
For those of you that want a end to this, I suggest you stop reading it. For me, it is a interesting and civil discussion.
As pointed out earlier; discussion forums are created for the open exchange of ideas and opinions. As long as the dialogue is kept civil, I see only positive things that can come from it. Obviously everyone will never completely agree on how the York meet will need to be modified to survive but opinions and ideas can be interesting to read and at times helpful. Personally I do not believe that opening one building of the meet to the public for one day will do the trick. The meet needs large attendance numbers to pay the huge costs associated with keeping it going and to provide enough of an audience to allow dealers to be profitable and keep coming back. If the meet is not wide open, advertised and promoted as such, you might as well keep things as they are and just hope for the best.
Personally I do not believe that opening one building of the meet to the public for one day will do the trick.
I thought the announcement stated that both dealer halls (with the Orange dealer hall being the largest one in the show) would be open to the public on Friday and Saturday.
C.W. you thought correctly. And add in the building with the modular layout.
If I was at the meeting that decided this change, here's some of what I would have brought up:
1. Exactly what is the measure to be used by Lionel, MTH, OGR, and others to judge whether or not things have improved to their satisfaction? If OGR has a 10% increase in subscriptions due to non TCA members visiting their booth, will that suffice? Lionel and MTH don't sell at their booths. If Chas Ro's booth has a spike in sales will C-Ro tell Lionel to tell Eastern Div it's a good thing?
2. Allowing cell phone use and some photography has not done a thing to bring back members. In fact, some posters claiming they will join TCA if allowed into the show also said this about cell phones and cameras in the past.
3. What type of general public has the ability to show up on a work day? More retired people? I thought that one of the the complaints was about a lack of new young blood... Don't forget that Friday is a school day.
4. Folks that won't join TCA because it's too expensive --- will you pay for travel to York and also pay for a hotel room?
5. If it rains will those who are not committed to a hotel room and haven't pre-paid admission show up?
This whole thing bothers me a lot. I don't believe it is going to work out. Just my gut feeling. I think the eastern div. needs to go back to the drawing board.
bigo426 posted:If I was at the meeting that decided this change, here's some of what I would have brought up:
1. Exactly what is the measure to be used by Lionel, MTH, OGR, and others to judge whether or not things have improved to their satisfaction? If OGR has a 10% increase in subscriptions due to non TCA members visiting their booth, will that suffice? Lionel and MTH don't sell at their booths. If Chas Ro's booth has a spike in sales will C-Ro tell Lionel to tell Eastern Div it's a good thing?
.....................................
While the vendors may have pushed the issue, I don't think the response to their particular sales alone is what makes this a success or not. It may determine whether it helps for their investment to attend.
I guess I could sense a bit with the lower number of tables and all (as well as the "gentleman's agreement by the large importers to tone down the elaborate displays several years back), but until it was revealed in this thread that the ED had actually been losing money on the meet for the last few years, I was not fully aware of that being an actual fact.
Step 1 is finding out if admitting the public does a lot to help the ED turn around the financials for the meet so they are not losing money.
Step 2 is if the anticipated larger crowds actually spend enough money (or generate enough interest that an uptick in sales later can be considered driven by the public attendance) to help make it more worth wile for the vendors to spend the money to show up.
If the ED financials don't turn around for running the meet, it would seem the impact on the vendors will be a moot point. Obviously it can become a catch-22 depending on how long this experiment has to play out to see if it helps both the ED and the vendors.
I think your other points/questions are very good as well, but I didn't have anything to add to those.
-Dave
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