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Moonson posted:

I respect, of course, your intention in what you are saying, here, MartyE, but I don't think immersion in this hobby can be solicited, nor even deliberately inculcated, at least not in such significant numbers as we are all part. The hundreds of thousands (millions?) of us model train hobbyists were touched by societal and historical and personal factors in our lives that will likely not be repeated ever again among the contemporary younger generation(s). IMO. They have already  been moved and inspired by other factors and interests.


FrankM.

If we do nothing then there is little room to complain about the EDTCA and it's efforts.  No one says it will take hold but you have to water the plant before it will grow. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you're saying.

Last edited by MartyE
eddie g posted:

So I will repeat what I said on page 2, This is what is going to happen, The members that only go to the orange hall & purple halls will drop out of the TCA and go as public on Friday & Saturday. It's too bad that the manufacturers & the large dealers have gotten so much control over this meet.

I totally agree with this and Dennis Lagrua will lead the way.

It would be very interesting if, after the meet, the ED would release the attendance numbers stating how many TCA members attended and how many non-TCA members (the public) attended. Of course there won't be any way to know how many people of the public were former TCA members who just dropped out of the TCA due to the fact they can now attend the dealer Halls without paying any dues.

George Harritos posted:

LONG! LONG OVERDUE!!

Now and my wife will be able to go without messing with all the protocol.

AMEN !!!

Wow, the "protocol" or registration process of bringing your wife to York is what stopped you from going? To each his own, but if you pre-register I don't understand the difficulty. I agree that 10 or 12 years ago if one didn't pre-register there was a very long line you had to wait in to register at the meet. That line moved slowly. I remember it taking me about 30 to 40 minutes to get through it.  In recent years that line has been streamlined and is much smaller and moves much quicker. The last time I registered at the meet I believe I was through the line in under 10 minutes.

I guess no one knows the answer to my question above but I am assuming that even the public will have to where a badge and go through some sort of registration or protocol. Or will the doors to the dealer halls be wide open so anyone could walk through? I assume the public will have to have something to prove they paid their entrance fee. Maybe a hand stamp? Or maybe a different colored badge?

Last edited by Hudson J1e
aussteve posted:

I find it most interesting that some of the most vehement contributors to this thread are not TCA members.  Hmmm, , ,  Complaining about something you don't even belong to or contribute to ?  I guess one of the subtle advantages of this forum.

Joe Hohmann's comments above have it pretty close to right.   The only one that wins in Joe's scenario is the WGH staff.

The important thing to measure between York and those other highly successful, Greenberg, WGH, etc, train shows is the $$ sales per hour or $$ sales per attendee.  I would like to see hard data on the total dollars spent per show per attendee compared against any York $$ numbers.  Not just some vendor saying I had a great show.

Also consider that York may have a higher number of shows to compete against in a 300 mile radius compared to the Rocky Mtn show.

I know personally I will drive a 58 hour round trip of 3342.7 miles to go to York and spend several hundred dollars.  Its much cheaper and easier than going to the WGH/Greenberg highly successful shows.  There, it's the same old vendors with the same old repainted, reproduction, etc stuff.  Those people go to York also, but at least with the TCA you have recourse and they are usually smart enough to not bring that junk to York.

No where else can Lionel, MTH, Atlas, Bachmann, etc., etc., find a concentrated gathering of people WITH CASH IN THEIR HAND that are interested in their product.  Why do you think those manufacturers keep coming back every six months?  And the ones that don't come back may not have the correct product, or business model to be successful.  No business is America is guaranteed to be successful except the gov't and monopolies.  Everyone else has to COMPETE to survive.  To my knowledge, no train gauge or train manufacturer get excluded from York.  But the market may not be there for them like it would be at a NMRA event.

I view York as similar to a manufacturers expo, like APEX.   They aren't open to the public and it costs a fortune for manufacturers to rent space to display.  Like York, it's not nearly as big as in years past due to companies restricting travel to save money.  BUT they know the traffic (attendees) will be a highly concentrated group of people with money or buying influence to look at their product and decide.  Most often all of the major competitors in a market niche will be there for the attendee to do a close comparison.   At York, it's not many feet from Lionel to MTH to Bachman or other competitors in the orange hall. 

Are the York attendance numbers decreasing from years past, yes.  Are more and more manufacturer's/ LHS getting out of the business, yes.  I think those two things are linked by a dying demographic, internet sales, and a loss of spendable income in the modern American family.

"I find it most interesting that some of the most vehement contributors to this thread are not TCA members.  Hmmm, , ,  Complaining about something you don't even belong to or contribute to ?  I guess one of the subtle advantages of this forum."

Since it is not a TCA run activity, only Eastern Division of the TCA members would have any say unless they also asked the tables holders for their input via suggestions and opinions as well. It seems nearly all, at least those TCA divisions growing, have their meets open to the public.

One thing that has always fascinated us is the many guys who go to these York meets and brag about the stuff they picked up for .10 or .25 on the dollar. Who in their right mind would hold something all year to sell it for pennies on the dollar? Why not sell it right away? The social aspect is very nice, but being on a budget and spending $200 for fuel, $400 in hotels, plus food and entry equals a new engine. (or two if we purchase used! ) The dealers and manufacturers should really love this change.

 

Hudson J1e posted:

I guess no one knows the answer to my question above but I am assuming that even the public will have to where a badge and go through some sort of registration or protocol. Or will the doors to the dealer halls be wide open so anyone could walk through? I assume the public will have to have something to prove they paid their entrance fee. Maybe a hand stamp? Or maybe a different colored badge?

Phil

I suspect it's still too early for some of these answers.  I'm sure the EDTCA is working through this.

Or maybe a different colored badge?

Can't use a badge. A person leaving could just pass theirs on to someone waiting outside.
They use wristbands at the Springfield, MA show.
Some shows use hand stamps.
I'd go with wristbands.

I was wondering about whether folks from the general public would be registered.
I think it would be preferable, but not feasible. If the masses show, it would take too long to get people through the door.

MartyE posted:
Hudson J1e posted:

I guess no one knows the answer to my question above but I am assuming that even the public will have to where a badge and go through some sort of registration or protocol. Or will the doors to the dealer halls be wide open so anyone could walk through? I assume the public will have to have something to prove they paid their entrance fee. Maybe a hand stamp? Or maybe a different colored badge?

Phil

I suspect it's still too early for some of these answers.  I'm sure the EDTCA is working through this.

Wrist bands seem to be the easiest method to denote paying customers for admission unless the intent is to gather personal information. And that would take forever!

Last edited by BobbyD
BobbyD posted:
MartyE posted:
Hudson J1e posted:

I guess no one knows the answer to my question above but I am assuming that even the public will have to where a badge and go through some sort of registration or protocol. Or will the doors to the dealer halls be wide open so anyone could walk through? I assume the public will have to have something to prove they paid their entrance fee. Maybe a hand stamp? Or maybe a different colored badge?

Phil

I suspect it's still too early for some of these answers.  I'm sure the EDTCA is working through this.

Wrist bands seem to be the easiest method to denote paying customers for admission unless the intent is to gather personal information. And that would take forever!

What ED could do is offer the dealer hall admission for X amount while informing them if they have never been to York they could walk over to the Silver Hall and get a one time admission to all the Halls for 22 bucks. I would think for anyone who has traveled any distance and has never been to York this would be a no brainer once they see the place. ED has been admitting first timers while acting as their sponsors for a few years now.

The old bait and switch.

Pete

Last edited by Norton
Norton posted:

What ED could do is offer the dealer hall admission for X amount while informing them if they have never been to York they could walk over to the Silver Hall and get a one time admission to all the Halls for 22 bucks. I would think for anyone who has traveled any distance and has never been to York this would be a no brainer once they see the place. ED has been admitting first timers while acting as their sponsors for a few years now.

The old bait and switch.

Pete

It will be interesting to see if that practice is affected by this change in April.

Interesting reading! I really haven't given this announced change a whole lot of thought yet (and probably won't even do so in the future ), but my initial reaction is that it will likely result in a short-term net gain for the Eastern Division (until the novelty wears off) and a long-term net loss for the TCA as a significant number of current members (including younger, operation- and tech-oriented members) fail to renew due to the lack of any "special" status afforded their membership and the availability of Friday/Saturday participation, at less cost as a John Q. Public, in the hall or halls they are most interested in frequenting.

I have continually preached for years that the York event is a "Meet" and not a "Show" (as it properly should be given the organization and its mission), and my guess is that any attempt to change it from one to the other is destined be less than successful. But, heck, that's just my opinion based on a zillion years in the hobby and in the publishing end of the industry . I could most certainly be wrong! Time will tell!

I have enjoyed a good many York Meets over the years, and hope to get a few more under my belt...primarily because I thoroughly enjoy the social aspects of the event. There are more than a few truly GREAT people in this hobby!

Although we may be beating this to death...I wonder if some Orange Hall dealers might feel "uncomfortable" about having the "public", especially with kids, near their stuff. I'm thinking of the booths with the very expensive antique German and British trains and related objects. You do not see this stuff at Greenberg shows. Comments?

Joe Hohmann posted:

Although we may be beating this to death...I wonder if some Orange Hall dealers might feel "uncomfortable" about having the "public", especially with kids, near their stuff. I'm thinking of the booths with the very expensive antique German and British trains and related objects. You do not see this stuff at Greenberg shows. Comments?

They were the ones pushing for it. Take the good with the bad and be careful what you ask for. 

This thing is going to turn out fine.  It will take a couple of years, maybe four meets, to iron the bugs and cheats out of the format.  In the meantime get ready for threads about how EDTCA is not spending enough money on advertising to get the public into the show.

Funny how a simple good ole boy get together meeting in a barn has turned into a financially oriented monster trying to please everybody. 

I never seem to see any comments or threads posted on OGR that begin with "Well as a current dues paying member of the Eastern Division"  . . . .  

Maybe the EDTCA should just go back to having a train meet/ train show/swap meet for members only and let Greenberg and WGH, cater to Lionel etc.  I haven't heard anyone comment on the size of the Lionel, MTH, Bachmann, Atlas booths at the WGH and Greenberg shows.  Comments ?   Crickets?

And I'm still waiting for that poster or organization that steps up and starts their own train show and demonstrates to the EDTCA how it's done properly.  You know you too can rent the York Fairgrounds.

Were ALL of the dealers were pushing for this? 

Finally spoke to my cousin. He and his 6 buddies set up in the dealer halls. They sell new and used equipment. However their table tops look like what you would see in the member halls. They have no interest, according to my cousin, of having kids come near their stuff. As far as pushing for the change, apparently it was a surprise to them. Maybe they didn't get the memo....

Last edited by bigo426

Man oh man 7 pages of support, whining, I know better how to do it. Allowing the unwashed public in to run over my table, turn it upside down and set it on fire.

wow, do you guys ever go out or are you stuck in your basement worrying somebody is planning to steal your trains.

Time for some of you guys to go outside and get some fresh air. 

PLEASE LET THIS THREAD DIE!  You will feel much better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As a paying member of the EDTCA, I have a thought or two for what it's worth. If it is true that Lionel, MTH, Bachmann, Atlas and other manufacturers were pushing to welcome the public to gain more exposure, why haven't they been advertising to draw more people (kids) to the hobby? Why not a TV ad at Christmas time or an internet ad, the kids are always on the net, perhaps it could spark an interest, where's their marketing?

Food for thought,  I used to set up in White Hall and one meet a young child with his granddad (I assume) dropped a bottle of orange soda in front of my table, soda splashed ALL OVER when it hit the floor and exploded, luckily my table cloth took the brunt of it but it wasn't pleasant, a sticky mess, my trains could have been ruined. Something to think about..............

Gene M. 

gene m posted:

As a paying member of the EDTCA, I have a thought or two for what it's worth. If it is true that Lionel, MTH, Bachmann, Atlas and other manufacturers were pushing to welcome the public to gain more exposure, why haven't they been advertising to draw more people (kids) to the hobby? Why not a TV ad at Christmas time or an internet ad, the kids are always on the net, perhaps it could spark an interest, where's their marketing?

Food for thought,  I used to set up in White Hall and one meet a young child with his granddad (I assume) dropped a bottle of orange soda in front of my table, soda splashed ALL OVER when it hit the floor and exploded, luckily my table cloth took the brunt of it but it wasn't pleasant, a sticky mess, my trains could have been ruined. Something to think about..............

Gene M. 

Gene,

Good point on the advertising.

TCA Adult Members drink orange soda too and can be clumsy and spill their drink in front of your table just as easily as a young child.

 

 

 

 

youn

 

 

 

 

 

Gene M, thanks for your input.

I have finally heard a comment on this forum about York from an actual "dues paying EDTCA member".  

By the way, let me thank you and your several thousand division members for an outstanding bi-annual train meet.  The best and smoothest running train show I have ever attended.  (And I wouldn't drive 3400 miles if it wasn't.)  Judging from just the size and longevity of the show, I would have to say it is easily the crown jewel or utopia of train meets in the toy train universe.  Please pass my thanks and appreciation on to your leaders and volunteers.  This thread and other similar threads are a testament as to how lonely it is at the top.

Roman posted:

You all close enough to attend York should just be thankful for such a large meet twice year compared to the slim pickin's we have out West. Yes there's Cal Stewart but sheesh. This is fun reading though! 

So Roman, I guess you're finally admitting after all these years : York doesn't suck!

I never seem to see any comments or threads posted on OGR that begin with "Well as a current dues paying member of the Eastern Division"  . . . .  

I guess you've skipping all my posts. When it's been appropriate, I have identified myself as an Eastern Division Member. There are no Eastern Division dues, just the TCA national ones. I suspect that some of the posters in this thread are not TCA members at all.

Finally spoke to my cousin. He and his 6 buddies set up in the dealer halls. They sell new and used equipment. However their table tops look like what you would see in the member halls. They have no interest, according to my cousin, of having kids come near their stuff. As far as pushing for the change, apparently it was a surprise to them. Maybe they didn't get the memo....

As an EASTERN DIVISION MEMBER, with experience holding train show tables, and experience promoting train shows, I have long held that knowledgeable table holders (both dealers and members) match the goods they bring to the crowd that they expect. For now, the member table holders are safe. Those in the dealer halls are at risk.

Are there poorly behaved TCA members / guests? ...... yes, but the percentage is very low, keeping the risk low.

Maybe it won't happen at the first show, but if there is significant attendance by the general public, the nature of the goods sold in the dealer halls will evolve, and I think some dealers (like those guys selling high end prewar) will drop out.

Maybe the EDTCA should just go back to having a train meet/ train show/swap meet for members only and let Greenberg and WGH, cater to Lionel etc.  I haven't heard anyone comment on the size of the Lionel, MTH, Bachmann, Atlas booths at the WGH and Greenberg shows.  Comments ?   Crickets?

Fine by me. Close the all dealer halls, return the show to two days, and only one table per member. Close any unneeded halls.

Last edited by C W Burfle

Well at least you won't have to walk anywhere any more because the orange hall would do it.

That would be fine by me.
To be clear, I have never objected to the dealer halls, some of my best purchases have come from the Orange hall. But if their time has passed, so be it.

Its great when the TCA and York can do things to be more welcoming to folks more interested in operating than collecting. But it shouldn't be at the expense of the collector crowd.

Last edited by C W Burfle
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