York goes public in the Spring of 2017

C W Burfle posted:

Its great when the TCA and York can do things to be more welcoming to folks more interested in operating than collecting. But it shouldn't be at the expense of the collector crowd.

Well from where I sit the "collector crowd" halls are safe from the orange soda dropping kids and their parents.  Since the member halls will still be off limits to the public.  While I doubt a ton of folks will sign up with the TCA you may get a few more "collectors" signed up to browse those halls and purchase from there as well.  If folks in the orange hall are concerned about their products they seem to have a choice to have a more strategic setup or move to a members only hall.  Last year their seemed to be plenty of tables available.

 If folks in the orange hall are concerned about their products they seem to have a choice to have a more strategic setup or move to a members only hall.  Last year their seemed to be plenty of tables available.

Maybe I have been misreading the definition of dealer. According to my read, they cannot just move to a member hall. Maybe the ED is going to create a members only hall for the dealers who do not want to display to the general public? - its getting complicated.

Or is there something new in the arrangement with the PA tax department that has not been revealed yet?

C W Burfle posted:

 If folks in the orange hall are concerned about their products they seem to have a choice to have a more strategic setup or move to a members only hall.  Last year their seemed to be plenty of tables available.

Maybe I have been misreading the definition of dealer. According to my read, they cannot just move to a member hall. Maybe the ED is going to create a members only hall for the dealers who do not want to display to the general public? - its getting complicated.

Or is there something new in the arrangement with the PA tax department that has not been revealed yet?

 

I'm not sure it's that complicated.  I guess we'll have to wait and see.  It's a change for sure.

“Change is inevitable. Growth is optional.”

― John C. Maxwell

Is this another 'Y2K' hysteria all over again???

IMO the idea of an event such as York open to the public which doesn't provide access to all venues at the event is problematic.  The public is eventaully going to ask why they are barred from entry to selected halls.  Rationales stated so far are not compelling from a public point of view.

Again despite the "cute" little graphics and angry face, this discussion has been fairly civil and informative with exchange of opinions and ideas.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

And not have all these pages of speculation?  That would be a terrible waste of this forum; there's plenty of time to get more angst, hand-wringing, denouncement, and panic in play before reality arrives.

If only. 

aussteve posted:

 

Funny how a simple good ole boy get together meeting in a barn has turned into a financially oriented monster trying to please everybody. 

 

Maybe the EDTCA should just go back to having a train meet/ train show/swap meet for members only and let Greenberg and WGH, cater to Lionel etc. 

And I'm still waiting for that poster or organization that steps up and starts their own train show and demonstrates to the EDTCA how it's done properly.  You know you too can rent the York Fairgrounds.

Good stuff. Thanks. As far as Lionel goes, I was not impressed by their small booth at the Philadelphia WGH show, nor was I impressed with the 2 guys manning it, who looked like they would rather be anywhere else. As far as promoting the hobby goes...I think it would be far better to show a small layout under a Christmas tree, than a large layout containing $5,000. worth of "stuff".

aussteve posted:

Also consider that York may have a higher number of shows to compete against in a 300 mile radius compared to the Rocky Mtn show.

Good point. In fact there are about 27 train shows per year within a 2 hour drive from York, and about 6 of those are 30 minutes away in Timonium, MD. 

shorling posted:

IMO the idea of an event such as York open to the public which doesn't provide access to all venues at the event is problematic.  The public is eventaully going to ask why they are barred from entry to selected halls.  Rationales stated so far are not compelling from a public point of view.

Actually, a pretty good point!

Allan Miller posted:

shorling posted:

IMO the idea of an event such as York open to the public which doesn't provide access to all venues at the event is problematic.  The public is eventaully going to ask why they are barred from entry to selected halls.  Rationales stated so far are not compelling from a public point of view.

Actually, a pretty good point!

And that would suggest to me that having all model train scales present might be a factor that would speak positively to "the public" and something they might or would expect. After all, how many of them are likely to solely be interested in "O" gauge.

FrankM.

Joe Hohmann posted:

aussteve posted:

Also consider that York may have a higher number of shows to compete against in a 300 mile radius compared to the Rocky Mtn show.

Good point. In fact there are about 27 train shows per year within a 2 hour drive from York, and about 6 of those are 30 minutes away in Timonium, MD. 

Yes, but how many of those would a typical non-model-train-hobbyist be aware? I really have no idea and am skeptical. If they don't buy model trains magazines, how would they know about the shows?

FrankM.

And that would suggest to me that having all model train scales present might be a factor that would speak positively to "the public" and something they might or would expect. After all, how many of them are likely to solely be interested in "O" gauge.

Just the fact that the show is sponsored by a TCA group is probably going to keep a lot of the HO and N gauge scale model railroaders away. Scale Modelers typically do not want their interest to be confused with playing with children's "toy trains" or collecting them.

shorling posted:

IMO the idea of an event such as York open to the public which doesn't provide access to all venues at the event is problematic.  The public is eventaully going to ask why they are barred from entry to selected halls.  Rationales stated so far are not compelling from a public point of view.

I've stayed out of this mess so far, but this comment (and a few others) moved me to chime in here...  This really ain't rocket science, folks.

For years now, I've been attending a PhotoExpo show in the Jacob Javits Center in NYC.  Crowds of people galore... In fact, it's an order of magnitude more than our little York train show.  

I often pre-register so I can pick up my badge quickly when I arrive, but the general public can just as easily check in unregistered, pay an entrance fee, and get a badge for just the expo display (where a sea of vendor booths reside).  The badge is labeled "EXPO ONLY".

Some folks attend the show for all 3 days (Thursday-Saturday), and can attend the expo vendor area as well as special break-out seminars.  Badges indicate the access level to these different seminars or just the expo vendor area (and a few other events open to the general public who didn't pay to attend a break-out seminar).

My point is simple... We're not blazing a trail here.  This type of thing has been done before in other industries -- some with WAY more attendees than what we're talking about at York.

At this point, I think it's fair to say that the EDTCA management will likely come up with a perfectly workable approach to admit John and Jane Q. Public on Friday and Saturday.  So let's just see how it all works out.  One thing is for certain.  The York show will NEVER be all things to all people.  Nor should the EDTCA attempt to make it so.  It doesn't need to be a Greenberg show or WGH show.  It only needs to be York.  Folks who want to attend will attend, and those who don't won't.  It's really that simple.

David

For those folks that don't  understand why they should renew their annual TCA membership if the halls will be open to the public are missing the larger picture in that the TCA does not solely exist to host a "private" train show.  they maintain a world class museum and research library for their members.  not to mention annual convention and a host of additional benefit's.  please understand your money goes a lot further than the entrance to the orange hall. 

BURFLE You have really gotten into this thread hook, line & sinker. I'm just going to wait and see.

BURFLE You have really gotten into this thread hook, line & sinker. I'm just going to wait and see.

I'm just having some fun "chatting". Hopefully nothing I've written has been upsetting to anyone. That is not my intention.

Hi Rockmountianeer,

You hit the nail on the head.  Exactly my point.  Other events as you pointed out, permit public access to all venues at the event, abet there my be a price difference based on venue selection.  The mechanics of such is fairly straight forward.   My point is the public will "expect" access choice  to the entire York event, which may be at higher ticket price than a "dealer hall only" ticket.  If the public is barred from a venue at the event, eventually they are going to want to know why.

C W Burfle posted:

I'm just having some fun "chatting". Hopefully nothing I've written has been upsetting to anyone. That is not my intention.

Some folks are looking for fire where there is none.  I am enjoying the exchange of thoughts.  We don't have to agree with each other just respect the others point of view.  So far I think the thread has done that for the most part.

shorling posted:

Hi Rockmountianeer,

You hit the nail on the head.  Exactly my point.  Other events as you pointed out, permit public access to all venues at the event, abet there my be a price difference based on venue selection.  The mechanics of such is fairly straight forward.   My point is the public will "expect" access choice  to the entire York event, which may be at higher ticket price than a "dealer hall only" ticket.  If the public is barred from a venue at the event, eventually they are going to want to know why.

Twice a year the subject comes up about letting non TCA members into the York show. The reason in the past for not doing this is currently TCA members selling in the member halls do not have to collect sales tax. As long as only TCA members are allowed into the member halls this perk will continue. There was apparently a deal made to continue the practice as long as only TCA members were allowed in the member halls but non members would be allowed in the dealer halls where sales tax was collected. It was made clear to the EDTCA directors the deal would be off if non members were allowed in the member halls.

Making the members collect sales tax would surely eliminate enough sellers to kill the meet in short order. As it is now its just hanging on by a thread.

Pete

MIKATT1 posted:

Roman posted:

You all close enough to attend York should just be thankful for such a large meet twice year compared to the slim pickin's we have out West. Yes there's Cal Stewart but sheesh. This is fun reading though! 

So Roman, I guess you're finally admitting after all these years : York doesn't suck!

Dang, it I let the cat out of the bag. My fellow Westies will get me for this!

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the clearity.   There is only question I have, is that when the general public asks why they are barred from member halls will that explaination fly ?

I stopped going to York a few years ago because of the TCA dues increase, and because just Building 8 had trains of interest to me. If York opens to the public on Friday, it is likely that I will start going again.

shorling posted:

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the clearity.   There is only question I have, is that when the general public asks why they are barred from member halls will that explaination fly ?

 

The general public can visit the member halls.  All they have to do is join TCA at the meet, pay their annual dues and admission and they will have a badge to visit all the halls.  Just like you and I and other TCA members.  Simple!

Hi Bob,

Good logic except when they join the TCA they are no longer the general public.

shorling posted:

Hi Bob,

Good logic except when they join the TCA they are no longer the general public.

 

I thought the goal was to recruit new TCA members.

Seems to me like they need to decide if they want to be TCA members with unlimited access or general public with orange and purple hall access only.  To have it both ways diminishes any advantage to being a TCA member.

shorling posted:

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the clearity.   There is only question I have, is that when the general public asks why they are barred from member halls will that explaination fly ?

 

Doesn't matter one bit if it "flies".   Any more than if I go to a concert and don't like it that a ticket closer to the stage costs more than nosebleed seats.  That's just the way it is, like it or not.

The public doesn't run the meet, the EDTCA does.

The TCA is trying to turn in the right direction.  The alternative is if the public doesn't like it, they turn around, don't pay any admission at all and just don't attend.  (or join and attend as full members with access to every hall)

Another analogy is the pricing at many science museums.  General admission ticket gets you into part of the museum.  If you want to see the butterfly exhibit, or IMAX movie, you pay extra. 

A couple of the posts in the thread, also seem to suggest that only TCA members are serious train hobbiests or have the budget to spend big money.  I think that either suggestion is kinda silly.

Jim

Another analogy is the pricing at many science museums.  General admission ticket gets you into part of the museum.  If you want to see the butterfly exhibit, or IMAX movie, you pay extra. 

The Hoover Dam had two tour levels when I was there a few years ago.
The Kennedy Space Center in Florida has all sorts of different options / levels of admission.

Well, there will be two or three tiers at York next April depending on whether you have ever been to York. Tier one, non members attending the Dealer Halls only (X amount to be decided), Tier two, non members who have never been to York can visit all the Halls for 22 bucks, Tier three, those who have been to York before can join the TCA for 50 bucks and pay the 22 bucks to walk all the buildings.

Pete

C W Burfle posted:

BURFLE You have really gotten into this thread hook, line & sinker. I'm just going to wait and see.

I'm just having some fun "chatting". Hopefully nothing I've written has been upsetting to anyone. That is not my intention.

I'm an Eastern Division TCA member, as well as an Upstate New York Chapter TCA member, and have really enjoyed this thread. Kudos and Thanks to the OGR folks for providing the platform!

Mike

One point I didn't see brought up, unless I missed it, will vendors in the dealer halls still have to be TCA members, or will non TCA dealers be allowed to vie for sales space?

Don

shorling posted:

There is only question I have, is that when the general public asks why they are barred from member halls will that explaination fly ?

 

The EDTCA could head this off at the pass by presenting all options at the public registration -- $XX for admission to dealer halls, $YY for membership (maybe at a one-time discounted rate) and admission to all halls.  The "guest of member" option might also be presented as a try-before-you-buy option between $XX and $YY.  That way the public knows they have choices up front.

Another thing that might help -  the EDTCA should have a "benefits of membership" brochure to be given to all non-member attendees when they register.  It would be a simple way to promote the organization if lots of the non-member public do show up.

Andy

Good.  Maybe attendance will go up instead of down.  BigRail 

C W Burfle posted:

Another analogy is the pricing at many science museums.  General admission ticket gets you into part of the museum.  If you want to see the butterfly exhibit, or IMAX movie, you pay extra. 

The Hoover Dam had two tour levels when I was there a few years ago.
The Kennedy Space Center in Florida has all sorts of different options / levels of admission.

You may want to consider a National Parks and Federal Recreational Lands Pass,  for places  like Steamtown .  There is a Senior, (62 and older), life time pass available.  It may not apply to all fees, but amazingly 2014 Southwest trip with the Scouts, it was accepted anywhere we showed it.  Hoover Dam, Grand Canyon South Rim, Grand Canyon North Rim, Bryce, and Zion.   There was (9) of us in a 12 passenger van.

We took the full dam tour, which is currently listed on the dam web site as costing $30 per person. No mention of the national park pass. I think we had a pass when we were on vacation visiting several national parks a few years back. I really liked Zion and Bryce Canyon.

The bottom line to me is that if I have join the TCA to attend the York Meet, I will not go. However, I would pay a reasonable entry fee, not to exceed $20 to attend York without any restrictions on entry to the buildings.

Bobby Ogage posted:

The bottom line to me is that if I have join the TCA to attend the York Meet, I will not go. However, I would pay a reasonable entry fee, not to exceed $20 to attend York without any restrictions on entry to the buildings.

Seems to me you will not be happy or going then.  The "public policy" currently will keep you from the members halls.  Can't please everyone in this entitled society.

Bobby Ogage posted:

The bottom line to me is that if I have join the TCA to attend the York Meet, I will not go. However, I would pay a reasonable entry fee, not to exceed $20 to attend York without any restrictions on entry to the buildings.

Maybe the TCA should set up an entrance booth where people can privately bargain their own deal.  After all, it's a place where people get together to negotiate prices, why not the entry fee?  Sorry, maybe I've been entitled too long and just pay the price to buy expensive toys I don't need.