York goes public in the Spring of 2017

riki posted:

i have yet to see, where raising the price of anything , solves the problem, the show needs to be moved,  so its in a major city,  with access, parking, highways etc...

So the solution is to move it somewhere that will cause costs to run the meet to increase?  How will that help?

I feel pretty confident guessing that it would cost a hell of a lot more to hold it at  "major" city and venue than at the York County Fairgrounds.

And even with hotels very close to the fairgrounds being jacked up in price a bit for the meet days, it's still possible to get a hotel reasonably within a short drive.  Hotel prices closer to a more "major" city would make it  more costly for members to attend.

Where exactly do you draw the line to count something as a "major" city?  Harrisburg is only about 20 miles away...  That's the third largest city in PA, I'm pretty sure, only behind Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.

As to highway access, it's not terribly off the beaten path to high speed interstates as it is.  It's only a couple miles to route 83 off of route 30.  and there is plenty of (free!) parking at the fairgrounds.  Lets add ~$20 per day for parking for each attendee to hold the event in a "major" city with less parking availability.

PUFFRBELLY posted:

........................... they are all "Toy Trains" (I know I'm going to get dinged for that last statement).   So, if one joins the TCA they realize they are joining because they have a love of "Toy Trains".   ..............................

Chief Bob (Retired)  

For the topic of this thread, I think your generalization is well warranted.   Any argument about the finer distinction between toy train and scale model is on a small enough scale it would have no impact on the meet's survival.  This whole post was spot on, IMO!

PUFFRBELLY posted:

It's $15.50 if ya do it on line and have your badge mailed.

Chief Bob (Retired)

That used to bug me just a little (not that I was complaining, I just never did it). 

Thinking more clearly about it though, when you consider the cost of the 2 first class stamps you are not mailing away with your registration (currently a total of 94 cents), it's only 56 cents more to do it on-line. (the delta goes down by a few cents if you count the cost of your 2 envelopes too). 

I always sort of assumed the higher cost of doing it on-line was because the TCA needed to recoup the fees from the vendor that is providing the on-line registration service.  If the EDTCA actually saves money by us doing it on line, I would consider doing it that way in the future (too late for October though - mailed mine in last week).

-Dave

Dennis LaGrua posted:

 York needs to be an attractive family event with a carnival outside, games and rides for the children..   For those that disagree I must remind them that ideals and reality are often very far apart and that ignorance is defined as doing things the same way and expecting a different result.

Carnival Rides?  Seriously?  York may need many things but carnival rides is not one of them unless they are O scale.  Why not a beer garden for the adults?  Maybe a petting zoo.  I agree you need something to bring folks in but I think I'd have additional layouts and more train oriented kid activities.

MartyE posted:

Dennis LaGrua posted:

 York needs to be an attractive family event with a carnival outside, games and rides for the children..   For those that disagree I must remind them that ideals and reality are often very far apart and that ignorance is defined as doing things the same way and expecting a different result.

Carnival Rides?  Seriously?  York may need many things but carnival rides is not one of them unless they are O scale.  Why not a beer garden for the adults?  Maybe a petting zoo.  I agree you need something to bring folks in but I think I'd have additional layouts and more train oriented kid activities.

Clowns.....

MartyE posted:

...  Why not a beer garden for the adults?  ...  I agree you need something to bring folks in but I think I'd have additional layouts and more train oriented kid activities.

I like the idea of a beer garden...   I'd buy a few over-priced (craft) beers to help keep York going!

Train-oriented kid activities would be good, except that the first two days of York tend to fall on school days.  I've often wondered if making York Friday-thru-Sunday, and keeping the same hours, would be a better move as it would allow people to bring their kids.   I know it would cost more for security, and possibly other things, but what would the difference be if it were spread out between the vendors, table-holders, member attendees and the non-member public?  I know I'd be willing to pay a little more for my table and registration fees if it went to a F-S-S schedule as it would save me a couple of vacation days a year.

Andy

How 'bout a circus come-to-town, complete with parade including clowns loaded into a miniature train that rolls along the route to the fairground, horrifying the kiddies?

(I'm being veerrrrry facetious. I trust everybody knows that. A little attempt at jocularity within a thread that has explored a whole variety of opinions and possibilities.)

FrankM.

Moonson posted:

How 'bout a circus come-to-town, complete with parade including clowns loaded into a miniature train that rolls along the route to the fairground, horrifying the kiddies?

Terrifying.........the horror, the horror.........  

I like it! 

(I'm being veerrrrry facetious. I trust everybody knows that. A little attempt at jocularity within a thread that has explored a whole variety of opinions and possibilities.)

Having a sense of humor is what makes one human.

Dave45681 posted:

riki posted:

i have yet to see, where raising the price of anything , solves the problem, the show needs to be moved,  so its in a major city,  with access, parking, highways etc...

So the solution is to move it somewhere that will cause costs to run the meet to increase?  How will that help?

I feel pretty confident guessing that it would cost a hell of a lot more to hold it at  "major" city and venue than at the York County Fairgrounds.

...  Lets add ~$20 per day for parking for each attendee to hold the event in a "major" city with less parking availability.

From this vendor's standpoint, it would take one heck-of-a place to match the convenience of being able to off-load and on-load simply by rolling/carrying from the parking lot through those huge roll-up doors, such as in the Orange Hall. I am able to park my vehicle right outside the door, literally, just on the other side of the wall, from my booth. We wouldn't need more  work.

FrankM, Layout Refinements

I think Andy ideas make a lot of sense.  Keep Thursday and Friday as members only and open Saturday and Sunday to the public.  My experience is there are a lot of parents with kids that attend the large meets held on Saturday and Sunday and the kids want to see trains running.  York could start by making Saturday the public day and if successfuly expand to Sunday although tables would have to remain until closing.   York would need a lot more layouts to be a successful public meet IMO.

Frankly I don't get the money issues.  O gauge is not an inexpensive hobby and the cost attending York IMO is not outragious compared to other persuits like days at Disney, a couple of hours at the movies or going out to dinner for a couple of hours.

RIKI "TCA needs to be moved" to where, California? Maybe near Fishermans wharf hotels $350. a night?

This will be the perfect opportunity for the major dealers to have some display space aimed solely at 1st time train buyers displaying some reasonably priced entry level sets or some other enticements to gain new customers.  Hopefully the public shows up in enough numbers to make a difference for the dealer's expense outlay.

Ed

Dennis LaGrua posted:

Do you find it odd that the WGH Show on tour draws 30,000 to 40,000 in two days while York draws maybe 14,000 in three?

Not at all. The Philadelphia WGH show (held in the town of Oaks) had T.V., radio, print, and even digital billboards to drum up over 40,000. The major highway, RT422, had to have the exit closed by the State Police due to exit and show area gridlock, and no parking space to be found at the convention center...period. Dealers I talked to said, "Never again!" due to poor sales (except for inexpensive Thomas" items).

The Rocky Mountain TCA shows are open to the public and extremely popular.   There are always a huge number of children there.

Ed Walsh posted:

This will be the perfect opportunity for the major dealers to have some display space aimed solely at 1st time train buyers displaying some reasonably priced entry level sets or some other enticements to gain new customers.  Hopefully the public shows up in enough numbers to make a difference for the dealer's expense outlay.

Ed

I don't see first time train buyers with kids being the solution here. If you want enough people to come in the door you are going to have to attract the HO and N gauge train people. They are more likely to travel some distance if they know there will be something there to buy. Bachmann, Atlas, and MTH could help advertise the fact and shops like Ro, Nicholas Smith and Train World could bring lots of product to sell to them as well as the smaller full line train stores. Put ads in Model Railroader, RMC, etc to let them know.

Pete

I think the infield carnival would likely be a poor choice.  There have been recent reports that the fundraising carnivals used by a number of PA volunteer fire companies have had disappointing results over the past 2 or 3 years.  Also the fall timing would put it very late in the season and after the fill of a multitude of county fairs wrapped up in August and September.  The carnival attendance is directly impacted by the weather and often the traveling carnival ride safety can be a concern to organizers and parents.  York already has the outdoor food vendors that provide the typical fair-type food. 

As others stated, the craft beer or wine tasting (or some food based event) might be something to consider.  These events are tent protected and more weather resilient, having a trendy following with disposable income.  Pair your Lager with a shay or heisler and finish with a pumpkin funnel cake for dessert.

NORTON's above suggestion to start to include more HO & N might be the best solution since there is much overlap with manufacturers, dealers and buyers.

Regardless of the public's impact on future attendance or gate revenue but more so based on the rising venue costs, the continued decline in dealer table holders and member attendance I would not be surprised to see York w/ dealer and member halls become a once a year event.

Keystone posted:

I think the infield carnival would likely be a poor choice.  There have been recent reports that the fundraising carnivals used by a number of PA volunteer fire companies have had disappointing results over the past 2 or 3 years.  Also the fall timing would put it very late in the season and after the fill of a multitude of county fairs wrapped up in August and September.  The carnival attendance is directly impacted by the weather and often the traveling carnival ride safety can be a concern to organizers and parents.  York already has the outdoor food vendors that provide the typical fair-type food. 

As others stated, the craft beer or wine tasting (or some food based event) might be something to consider.  These events are tent protected and more weather resilient, having a trendy following with disposable income.  Pair your Lager with a shay or heisler and finish with a pumpkin funnel cake for dessert.

NORTON's above suggestion to start to include more HO & N might be the best solution since there is much overlap with manufacturers, dealers and buyers.

Regardless of the public's impact on future attendance or gate revenue but more so based on the rising venue costs, the continued decline in dealer table holders and member attendance I would not be surprised to see York w/ dealer and member halls become a once a year event.

I always believed that a once a year show was the answer to the problem as someone who has been on both sides of the event, As a volunteer and a person who just attends I see both sides of the argument, But I feel that if you want to make this a event and not just a show then maybe we need to think of once a year.  As for the public we will just have to see what happens, Its a gamble and it will take time to develop a following  of non members who want to come, But I also believe there will be people who will leave TCA national, And that's something I feel is the unknown part of this, I hope I am wrong but as someone who does not run any older trains , Most of my time at York is in the dealer halls and I believe there are a lot of people like me, So I hope it works out like they want it we will just see

Keystone posted:

................................As others stated, the craft beer or wine tasting (or some food based event) might be something to consider.  These events are tent protected and more weather resilient, having a trendy following with disposable income.  Pair your Lager with a shay or heisler and finish with a pumpkin funnel cake for dessert..........................

There is that pesky little thing about no alcohol on the fairground property (in every registration book I've ever seen).  I'm guessing that's insurance related.  I'm not sure I'd still be as interested if there was a high probability of people walking around tanked at the meet.

So many ideas (not just Keystone's, I mean the whole thread).... most of which could/would add significant cost in some way or the other.

Sort of reminds me of the phrase "champagne wishes and caviar dreams on a beer and weenies budget."

I find it most interesting that some of the most vehement contributors to this thread are not TCA members.  Hmmm, , ,  Complaining about something you don't even belong to or contribute to ?  I guess one of the subtle advantages of this forum.

Joe Hohmann's comments above have it pretty close to right.   The only one that wins in Joe's scenario is the WGH staff.

The important thing to measure between York and those other highly successful, Greenberg, WGH, etc, train shows is the $$ sales per hour or $$ sales per attendee.  I would like to see hard data on the total dollars spent per show per attendee compared against any York $$ numbers.  Not just some vendor saying I had a great show.

Also consider that York may have a higher number of shows to compete against in a 300 mile radius compared to the Rocky Mtn show.

I know personally I will drive a 58 hour round trip of 3342.7 miles to go to York and spend several hundred dollars.  Its much cheaper and easier than going to the WGH/Greenberg highly successful shows.  There, it's the same old vendors with the same old repainted, reproduction, etc stuff.  Those people go to York also, but at least with the TCA you have recourse and they are usually smart enough to not bring that junk to York.

No where else can Lionel, MTH, Atlas, Bachmann, etc., etc., find a concentrated gathering of people WITH CASH IN THEIR HAND that are interested in their product.  Why do you think those manufacturers keep coming back every six months?  And the ones that don't come back may not have the correct product, or business model to be successful.  No business is America is guaranteed to be successful except the gov't and monopolies.  Everyone else has to COMPETE to survive.  To my knowledge, no train gauge or train manufacturer get excluded from York.  But the market may not be there for them like it would be at a NMRA event.

I view York as similar to a manufacturers expo, like APEX.   They aren't open to the public and it costs a fortune for manufacturers to rent space to display.  Like York, it's not nearly as big as in years past due to companies restricting travel to save money.  BUT they know the traffic (attendees) will be a highly concentrated group of people with money or buying influence to look at their product and decide.  Most often all of the major competitors in a market niche will be there for the attendee to do a close comparison.   At York, it's not many feet from Lionel to MTH to Bachman or other competitors in the orange hall. 

Are the York attendance numbers decreasing from years past, yes.  Are more and more manufacturer's/ LHS getting out of the business, yes.  I think those two things are linked by a dying demographic, internet sales, and a loss of spendable income in the modern American family.

I think Andy ideas make a lot of sense.  Keep Thursday and Friday as members only and open Saturday and Sunday to the public.  My experience is there are a lot of parents with kids that attend the large meets held on Saturday and Sunday and the kids want to see trains running.

York has minimal running layouts running for display. Maybe we should empty out the Orange hall and fill it with layout displays.

Really pleased to see York opening dealer halls to public for at least part of the meet.  This should help to incentivize dealers to attend.  They have been dropping off in recent years and are the key to making York the great meet it is.

Harold

mwb posted:

Clowns.....

Jerry

aussteve posted:

I find it most interesting that some of the most vehement contributors to this thread are not TCA members.  Hmmm, , ,  Complaining about something you don't even belong to or contribute to ?  I guess one of the subtle advantages of this forum.

Joe Hohmann's comments above have it pretty close to right.   The only one that wins in Joe's scenario is the WGH staff.

The important thing to measure between York and those other highly successful, Greenberg, WGH, etc, train shows is the $$ sales per hour or $$ sales per attendee.  I would like to see hard data on the total dollars spent per show per attendee compared against any York $$ numbers.  Not just some vendor saying I had a great show.

Also consider that York may have a higher number of shows to compete against in a 300 mile radius compared to the Rocky Mtn show.

I know personally I will drive a 58 hour round trip of 3342.7 miles to go to York and spend several hundred dollars.  Its much cheaper and easier than going to the WGH/Greenberg highly successful shows.  There, it's the same old vendors with the same old repainted, reproduction, etc stuff.  Those people go to York also, but at least with the TCA you have recourse and they are usually smart enough to not bring that junk to York.

No where else can Lionel, MTH, Atlas, Bachmann, etc., etc., find a concentrated gathering of people WITH CASH IN THEIR HAND that are interested in their product.  Why do you think those manufacturers keep coming back every six months?  And the ones that don't come back may not have the correct product, or business model to be successful.  No business is America is guaranteed to be successful except the gov't and monopolies.  Everyone else has to COMPETE to survive.  To my knowledge, no train gauge or train manufacturer get excluded from York.  But the market may not be there for them like it would be at a NMRA event.

I view York as similar to a manufacturers expo, like APEX.   They aren't open to the public and it costs a fortune for manufacturers to rent space to display.  Like York, it's not nearly as big as in years past due to companies restricting travel to save money.  BUT they know the traffic (attendees) will be a highly concentrated group of people with money or buying influence to look at their product and decide.  Most often all of the major competitors in a market niche will be there for the attendee to do a close comparison.   At York, it's not many feet from Lionel to MTH to Bachman or other competitors in the orange hall. 

Are the York attendance numbers decreasing from years past, yes.  Are more and more manufacturer's/ LHS getting out of the business, yes.  I think those two things are linked by a dying demographic, internet sales, and a loss of spendable income in the modern American family.

Lots of good stuff here aussteve.  I am one of those that sets aside my 'train budget' money and arrive at York determined to spend some of it!

I'm an S gauge guy and find the York Meet has a good selection both quality and quantity wise, especially in the members halls. It's part of the fun to search and find that bargain item, as prices can be all over the place.

While I personally head for the member halls first, I do spend a good amount of time in the dealer/mfrg halls. Great variety, good people, large and small businesses.

I find the traveling shows not for me - never found anything of interest. The local clubs and other groups that put on train shows here in western New York state do a better job than the traveling shows that have come through here. For me, there is no comparison to traveling to York and spending a couple of days thinking about nothing but trains with thousands of like minded people!

I'm taking a wait and see approach to the admittance of non members to the York meets, hope it's a good thing, I trust the hard working and sometimes under appreciated folks of the Eastern Division York team to do the right thing.

Mike

Joe Hohmann posted:

Dennis LaGrua posted:

Do you find it odd that the WGH Show on tour draws 30,000 to 40,000 in two days while York draws maybe 14,000 in three?

Not at all. The Philadelphia WGH show (held in the town of Oaks) had T.V., radio, print, and even digital billboards to drum up over 40,000. The major highway, RT422, had to have the exit closed by the State Police due to exit and show area gridlock, and no parking space to be found at the convention center...period. Dealers I talked to said, "Never again!" due to poor sales (except for inexpensive Thomas" items).

Joe,

Your misleading everybody about the first WGH show, yes it jammed and yes they had to shut down the highway for a time. But it was the first time they had the show at that location. 

Things have smoothed out and the next WGH show is there it should be much better. I go to every show there some non train related and have never had a problem like that first time. 

 After a few days of reading this long thread, here is what I have learned:

The new policy is great.

The new policy is horrible.

"I know better how to run this"

"No. I know better how to run this"

York open to the public will be the third best improvement to York since I started going.  Best change was allowing the dealers into the member halls early to set up.  Second was going to 1/2 day Thursday to mitigate the hotel shows.

I personally think letting the public in will give several of the disgruntled forum members the incentive to join TCA as well as the new found public. (Wow did I really say that?)

No one so far has mentioned the Big E show in Springfield, MA It draws about 24.000 people. I am a prewar collector and operator I also collect some postwar. I find NOTHING at the Big E, & if the WGH is same kind of show, I would find nothing there either. Years ago I used to go to the Greenberg shows. I found nothing there either, & most of the stuff is over priced. The dealers there would up the prices from what they asked for at tca meets because a lot of the public does not know what they should be paying. 

FLYER 52, You have it right.

So I will repeat what I said on page 2, This is what is going to happen, The members that only go to the orange hall & purple halls will drop out of the TCA and go as public on Friday & Saturday. It's too bad that the manufacturers & the large dealers have gotten so much control over this meet.

aussteve posted:

York open to the public will be the third best improvement to York since I started going.  Best change was allowing the dealers into the member halls early to set up.  Second was going to 1/2 day Thursday to mitigate the hotel shows.

I personally think letting the public in will give several of the disgruntled forum members the incentive to join TCA as well as the new found public. (Wow did I really say that?)

Aussteve, when I started going to York, the dealers were jammed into the concession area under the main grandstand, which I believe was called the yellow hall. Lionel had a tent set up near by. Move dealers to orange hall might be added to your improvements list, although the yellow hall had a certain raw charm to it.  

Mike

although the yellow hall had a certain raw charm to it.

Crowded small aisles and no way to establish a pattern to walk thru without having to repeat parts.  Lovely.

richabr posted:

although the yellow hall had a certain raw charm to it.

Crowded small aisles and no way to establish a pattern to walk thru without having to repeat parts.  Lovely.

I'm glad the Orange hall has those new arrows to make it easy for us to find our way around

 

Joe,

Your misleading everybody about the first WGH show, yes it jammed and yes they had to shut down the highway for a time. But it was the first time they had the show at that location. 

Things have smoothed out and the next WGH show is there it should be much better. I go to every show there some non train related and have never had a problem like that first time. 

 

Misleading? The parking lot is still the same size. I did not know there was going to be another WGH show at Oaks. What is the date? In any event, the point I was trying to make was that 40,000 people do not always mean those people are spending money over the price to get in. The Eastern Division will see ticket sales increase, but the dealers may or may not see increased sales. The other point I was trying to make was the impact of heavy advertising on the number of those attending. Advertising has not been needed for previous TCA Yorks.

I'm glad the Orange hall has those new arrows to make it easy for us to find our way around

Only the front half, back has no arrows. As much as people harp about it, the arrows in the narrower member halls were a good thing when instituted. Granted things were more crowded then but when started the arrows greatly reduced bottlenecks in the aisles.

Flyer 52, I remember the yellow hall/grandstand.  I wasn't including changes that were germaine to the York Fairgrounds like the Silver and Orange Halls.  For that matter I really miss the Friday night auction in the green hall.  Now that was pure enjoyment to the seller, buyer and spectators. 

Eddie, I would imagine that the admission price for the public will have to be high enough to make it a difficult decision to give up TCA and just do only the public part on Friday and Saturday.  Or lower the admission cost to the TCA members.

I would personally love to know what the ratio is of Eastern TCA members to other division members that attend the York show.  I would also like to know how many members of this forum are TCA members and how many regularly go to York.  (Just wishful fact thinking)

And for the life of me I can't understand why Lionel, MTH , Bachmann, Atlas and whomever don't form a cartel and do their own shows and blow off the WGH, Greenberg and York shows.  (For that matter some of the people on this forum or OGR seem really knowledgeable on how to do this).  They can pick the venues and times across the country.  Or maybe York is that big dog that makes all the other little dogs stay on the porch and squeal.  Or maybe York is already that one place they (manufacturers, collectors, members, dealers, wannabe dealers) can all go and meet their cash cow customers for three days.

The Dallas train clubs have done it.  Pretty much all the train shows are run by one combined "train council" now.  The proceeds etc are divided up according to man hour participation and other formulas.  Been that way for many years now.  They basically ran GATS and the GATS successor out of Dallas and Fort Worth by boycott. 

I don't see why someone can't unseat York, but no one seems to ever get off of the porch, now do they.

Personally, I am just glad to have one decent train show to go to twice a year.  A bit of a very long drive, and don't know what I will see, but it's kind of like a vacation.  In the end, I hope we can all still enjoy the trains and each other, while we're still here.

I have a serous question. Will John Q Public have a name badge like TCA members such as myself? I don't mind other TCA members knowing who I am but I would rather not have the public know who I am IF I can't know who they are. I assume the public will have a different colored badge which only will allow them entry into the dealer halls. I apologize if this information was posted somewhere, if it was I somehow missed it. 

And for the life of me I can't understand why Lionel, MTH , Bachmann, Atlas and whomever don't form a cartel and do their own shows and blow off the WGH, Greenberg and York shows. 

They are not the reason for this decision as they do not actually sell to attendees. They are there to show their wares to those who are eventually buying their products. The train and related dealers are the ones who are pushing for public entrance as their expenses are rising and revenues dropping. The sellers in the member halls probably couldn't care less as their merchandise is not aimed at kids or new entrants to the hobby.

I don't see why someone can't unseat York, but no one seems to ever get off of the porch, now do they.

Why would anyone want to unseat York and turn the show into a WGH or Big E type show? The red, white, silver and blue along with some of the smaller stores in the purple and orange halls are the places to find those trains that are other than the newest manufactured available. The new stuff can easily be found online at any of the train stores sites.

Boy BigO426 sure got it right when he wrote: " A slippery slope".

It's a slippery slope indeed. First there was the call from some dealers and some train folks for the Eastern Division to open up the show to the public. That would fix everything!
Now that its been leaked that the Eastern Division is doing just that, there are all sorts of calls for changing the show to make it more attractive to kids and families.

Tell you what: The Amherst Railway Society's annual show in Springfield Mass is a large, well attended show. The sponsoring group makes plenty of money. They have a long waiting list for tables. But as Eddie wrote, there is very little there that would be of interest to collectors. I go when the weather is clear because it isn't all that long of a drive. I wouldn't drive the six hours it takes me to get to the York show. And I just don't see people traveling across the country to attend.
I hope the Eastern Division doesn't turn their show into a Springfield.

Well many pages and many ideas.  Regardless of all the suggestions, it is ultimately up to each one of us to keep this hobby going.  The EDTCA deserves a ton of credit for trying something which obviously has created some angst among some of the hard core York attendees and for some didn't do enough.  York now in the spring will give more folks access to the meet / show now it's up to us to get some folks there.  Seems pretty simple if you got a friend that is interested in the new stuff that are at the dealers to drag them along.  Maybe they'll see reason to join and explore the other halls. 

I hate when folks say that the TCA, LCCA, Lionel, MTH and so on don't do enough when maybe in reality we don't.  Lots of great clubs do a wonderful job but on an individual level we may be a great way to help the EDTCA in this new venture.

C W Burfle posted:

They hope to get back in the black. The ED has been in the red for the last two Yorks. Costs are going up and revenue is going down despite raising the charge for members and their spouses. If they continue to loose money York, as you know it, will be gone. Simple as that. This fact was made public at the business meeting last April. Anyone could have attended. Make point of attending the next one.

For heavens sake, why didn't they raise the admission and table fees enough to cover expenses? What would they have to charge?

Perhaps they feel that opening up the dealer halls to the public will bring in extra revenue at a MINIMUM impact (no increase in either table fees or admission costs to TCA members)?  Seems to me that ED needs to do whatever they feel is in their best interest in getting the York back into the black, so that it will be viable in the future.  I wish the ED the best of luck!

Jim

MartyE posted:

Well many pages and many ideas.  Regardless of all the suggestions, it is ultimately up to each one of us to keep this hobby going.  The EDTCA deserves a ton of credit for trying something which obviously has created some angst among some of the hard core York attendees and for some didn't do enough.  York now in the spring will give more folks access to the meet / show now it's up to us to get some folks there.  Seems pretty simple if you got a friend that is interested in the new stuff that are at the dealers to drag them along.  Maybe they'll see reason to join and explore the other halls. 

I hate when folks say that the TCA, LCCA, Lionel, MTH and so on don't do enough when maybe in reality we don't.  Lots of great clubs do a wonderful job but on an individual level we may be a great way to help the EDTCA in this new venture.

I respect, of course, your intention in what you are saying, here, MartyE, but I don't think immersion in this hobby can be solicited, nor even deliberately inculcated, at least not in such significant numbers as we are all part. The hundreds of thousands (millions?) of us model train hobbyists were touched by societal and historical and personal factors in our lives that will likely not be repeated ever again among the contemporary younger generation(s). IMO. They have already  been moved and inspired by other factors and interests.

For example, my wife and I have two young male cousins, brothers, now ten and twelve, who were introduced to model trains one Christmas, several years ago, by visiting our layout for the first time. They were both smitten. Yet, subsequently, and perhaps simultaneously, one of the boys took more to modern electronics, and the other loves his trains. (Yes, "his trains" because I gave them , both, enough track to make several loops; transformer; diesel locomotive, and several freight and passenger cars.)

The older brother isn't interested in trains any further. The younger boy jumps and cheers with glee every time we give him a new passenger car or locomotive, which is every time we go to their home.

They even traveled into NYC to see the layout their "Uncle Frank"help make at F.A.O. Schwarz, and loved it; however, the boys also play with their remote-controlled vehicles and Tyrannosaurus, which responds to their approach to it, and with their remotely-operated helicopters, and with their (the latest gift from us) pocket-pens that take photos covertly.

The father, very involved with his boys, every day, set up a platform for them to operate and contain their trains, but it has been put aside, into the garage, due to space needed for other activities in their playroom, as well as due to their waning interest in the trains. I did my best, and it was no small effort, but I came to realize there are forces at-play that are far larger than I can affect significantly.

Such is life. IMHO.

FrankM.

6 pages of speculation over a decision on an event that takes place next year.....

I'm sure it'll be far more entertaining next year after this actually happens.