NJCJOE, To answer your Question about the meet starting on Thursday, The eastern div. did it to try and kill the bandit meets.

JDADDY, To answer your question about the meet should be all week, The bandit shows start on Sunday, & run thru Wednesday. So it is trains all week long.

BucksCo posted:

............................ It is always great to go out and show the product to the public but the manufacturers have an obligation to bring new people into the hobby so that it can grow. We love spending time speaking to everyone about the hobby but we also need to speak with the uninitiated out there who see our products as something "New" - even the older products. This is key - when new people take an interest in the hobby all of the products in a manufacturer's catalog are new to them which means the manufacturer sells more items making it possible to produce new ones for you the "Old guard". I know it is hard to believe but if manufacturers can't keep selling the older products they can't afford to make that new locomotive that you guys want. .............

I have to admit I am not a regular WBB customer, so maybe this is not as much of an issue if some products may be readily available from previous releases.

I'm curious how the public would react if they decide they like product xxx or yyy from a given catalog. 

If product xxx is in a catalog released at York, many people (those not already accustomed to current production timelines in this hobby, like most on this site are) would probably assume they should be able to get one by Christmas.  Would they still be interested when they find out that actual availability is normally (minimum average estimate on my part) 6-9 months out for most items?  And, by the way, to ensure you get item xxx if you really want to make sure you get one, you have to place an order with a dealer so you actually may get one when it is made.

The opposite situation could apply for item yyy.  Customer sees  this great yyy train in a catalog from last year.  Where can I get one, they ask?  While there may have been a few dealers with a few spares ordered for large items, that seems to become less frequent due to the huge variety of stuff being produced (a double edged sword - variety is great, but means no dealer will be able to order a few extras of every item, where would they put them?).

I realize vendors here are a small subset of the total population, but it would be very interesting to see if such conversations with the public are commonplace and what  the public reaction is. 

Of course, none of this is specific to York, these situations have existed for years and if importers were to meet the public at any other open show/meet the questions may have come up.

-Dave

C W Burfle posted:

 ........................
This is an unpopular view around here, but outside of the dealer halls, the table holders are fellow members  They have other things going on too, and may not be able to stay for all three days. Or they may run out of sellable merchandise. With an overabundance of tables, is it better that the tables remain vacant for all three days, as opposed to one day?.......................

While it's not happened to me (I always seem to have a few items that buyers have as little interest in buying as I do keeping the item ), a friend of mine who is also on this forum has run out of items when he had a really good sale going on some stuff he was trying to sell for a relative who had lost interest.  He asked the hall captain, and since he had no merchandise left to sell, he was allowed to leave his table.

I think we are talking an extreme outlying case there though.  Very few people "run out" of items on their table.

-Dave

NJCJOE posted:

Does anybody remember the reason the meet was switched from a two day meet to the current three day schedule? I thought part of it had to do with dispersing the larger crowds we had back then over the three day period. Maybe it's time to go back to a two day meet again. The first day would only be opened to TCA members and the second day could allow the public to attend. I would think this would also make a lot of vendors happy by saving them an extra day of expenses.

While I'm sure Eddie's response is accurate too, was it also due to the Orange Hall and the larger booth spaces that were now available to dealers?  Some of these require much more setup time than moving stuff in with a hand truck for an hour or so before the meet.

Before the Orange hall, most dealers either just had a large number of tables based on how many family members they had signed up to obtain the tables and/or the small alcoves in the Yellow Hall (which were possibly also sold as a certain "# of tables", I'm not too familiar with how that used to be handled since I am not a dealer). 

-Dave

I know, let's take this thread and fast-forward to April 30 2017.

Considering all the above comments, I'll bet the most prevalent on that day will be....

'I told you so!'

KD

Joe Yuppie who needs to kill time with his kids will look at the Lionel booth, then buy his Polar Express set on Amazon. Of course he will first compare prices on his smart phone.

bigo426 posted:

Joe Yuppie who needs to kill time with his kids will look at the Lionel booth, then buy his Polar Express set on Amazon. Of course he will first compare prices on his smart phone.

Many of you forget that as children it was Lionel layout in a department store that baby sat you during the holidays while your parents shopped.  So while Joe Yuppie entertains his children  at York and introduces them to the magic of toy trains he will also have paid an entrance fee to the TCA. Some of you need to remember where this hobby came from. Good for Joe if he's smart enough to price shop his set. There are plenty of large dealers in the orange hall, many of whom have some of the best prices in the country. Also, if he wants to go home and buy his set on Amazon that's his right. He owes NOTHING to the dealers at the meet, myself included. 

I hope opening up the York meet will set a pattern for the behavior for other TCA divisions. Our Midwest Division sure could use an infusion of new participants and giving the public an opportunity to come and visit our almost monthly meets would I believe help the Division grow and prosper. Our meets are usually from 10-1 on Sundays and I can envision having the first hour for members only followed by 1-2 hours of admitting the public. I can't think of a more positive step the Division could take to insure its future.

turbgine posted:

I hope opening up the York meet will set a pattern for the behavior for other TCA divisions. Our Midwest Division sure could use an infusion of new participants and giving the public an opportunity to come and visit our almost monthly meets would I believe help the Division grow and prosper. Our meets are usually from 10-1 on Sundays and I can envision having the first hour for members only followed by 1-2 hours of admitting the public. I can't think of a more positive step the Division could take to insure its future.

I thought all Divisions already did this. Our Atlantic Division does.

gmorlitz posted:... And a rule without penalty is simply a wish.

Gerry

That's a good one. I'm going to remember it and wrote it into my "Ideas to Remember" notebook. For real.

FrankM

OGR Ad Man posted:

BucksCo posted:

... I believe opening the meet to the public  is an attempt to help out the manufacturers by bringing fresh blood into the halls to help grow the hobby and it is a chance for the TCA to grow it's membership by showcasing what they are to a new generation of potential train enthusiasts....

...Giving them a shot at a new audience can be beneficial to everyone involved! ...

Could not have been said better!!!    Alan

Makes sense to me.

Our hobby needs to grow, not stagnate, nor waste-away. However, layouts do fill up. Collections do reach critical-mass. Budgets and expenditures for trains and all related items do get curtailed. And natural attrition is a hugely significant factor - a generation is leaving, bit by bit, the likes-of-which we will never  see again in the hobby, their having grown up during a time (40's , 50's, and early-60's) when trains (and trolleys), real and toy, were omnipresent in daily life. That demographic will not occur again; of that, I am absolutely certain.

FrankM.

They are going to have another problem. Not everyone in the orange hall is a dealer.

They are going to have another problem. Not everyone in the orange hall is a dealer.

I think you are mistaken on this one. As far as the state of Pennsylvania is concerned, they have a PA Tax Number, and they are dealers.

eddie g posted:

They are going to have another problem. Not everyone in the orange hall is a dealer.

Even if this is true the simple solution would to be to relocate them to a member hall. 

This appears to be a done deal, or done decision to try.  I think we should all just relax and enjoy the October 2016 York and the next April York in 2017. 

None of us has any guarantee of being at either one. 

If we just make it there, then count it a privilege, and get out your wallet.

bigo426 posted:

Joe Yuppie who needs to kill time with his kids will look at the Lionel booth, then buy his Polar Express set on Amazon. Of course he will first compare prices on his smart phone.

Please keep in mind that purchases from Amazon can be sold directly by the Manufacturer/importer or on consignment to Amazon.  The Lionel RTR sets that were Amazon holiday season lightning deals during the past few years shipped directly from Lionel's warehouse to Amazon's distribution warehouse.  There appeared to be no use of dealers or the normal Lionel distributors.  I would guess this practice "annoyed" a number of dealers who purchased their stock through the traditional channels and at a higher price.  But sometimes higher than planned inventory levels, traditional sales outlets are not performing as desired or management just miscalculated and the need to move product before it misses its peak sales period cycle is most important to generate sales cash flow.

Please reconsider and not dismiss "Joe Yuppie" who you describe "needs to kill time with his kids will look at the Lionel Booth", maybe he/she WANTS to be with his children and possibly introduce them to toy trains.  Possibly Joe Y. could not find a local train shop, found a shop and was treated poorly or ignored by someone who caters only to their few crotchety croanies, or... just happened to see or hear the advertisement for the York weekend show and had some time to kill with the kids. 

Before, during and after the train hey days of the late 1990's through 2008 we heard and continue to hear so often on this forum by those of us already into model trains that York is an amazing and overwhelming toy train experience.  Think of the possible impact the York ORANGE HALL experience with its many dealers AND manufacturers might have on someone who took the time to take the kids, pay their entry fee and take a look around.

At times, how we found this hobby is irrelevant.  The point is, we found it or it found us and we like (love) it for the many qualities toy trains and model railroading provide.

None of this changes any of the enjoyment I have at the meet.  I'll still be there from the DCS meeting on Wednesday night, the National Anthem on Thursday to "Happy Trails" on Saturday!  Then top it all off with a cheesesteak at Latucca's!

Moonson posted:

, layouts do fill up. Collections do reach critical-mass. Budgets and expenditures for trains and all related items do get curtailed. And natural attrition is a hugely significant factor - a generation is leaving, bit by bit, the likes-of-which we will never  see again in the hobby, their having grown up during a time (40's , 50's, and early-60's) when trains (and trolleys), real and toy, were omnipresent in daily life. That demographic will not occur again; of that, I am absolutely certain.

FrankM.

Just think how many boys prior to the end of steam wanted to be a steam engine engineer when they grew up (I'd guess about 20%). Now we have kids welded to hand-helds and wanting to be computer programmers. Where do electric trains fit in for them? Back in my grandfather's day, building ship models was popular. How many do that anymore?

Sorry, but I find all the "Grow the Hobby" stuff a bit humorous...unless you work for, or own the stock of a company making electric trains.

FYI, York already has Public train shows, right in the Orange Hall, and they are poorly attended. 

I do believe opening to the public will be a good change.  

- A lot has been said about the "public" and parents getting turned off by the high price of trains.  Obviously some parents cannot afford trains for the kids right now.  But there are an awful lot of parents who can easily afford iPads, iPhones and video games for their kids.  Buying a starter set would be no issue for them.  Buying add on accessories over time in many cases would be no more costly than a new video game.  I think it a mistake to undervalue that demographic.

- No doubt kids are locked into their electronics these days.  But I would guess that for the most part none of them has ever seem an operating model train layout.  Getting to see all there is in the dealers halls would definitely be an attraction for them.

Certainly I have no idea how successful this change will be.  I hope it works out very well for everyone involved.  What I do know is that doing nothing will keep things on track for a slow decline.   

Regards dropping my membership to save $ and goto York as public.  For me that would seem like I was getting a kind of free ride in that I got to have the York fun without paying for any of the underlying support structure.  Clearly that is a personal decision

I don't see any downside to this decision other than the dealer hall being more crowed on the days open to the public.  And if this change does not have the desired impact then ED/TCA can change it back as quickly as they made this change.

Thanks,

Ed

Joe Hohmann posted:

Moonson posted:

, layouts do fill up. Collections do reach critical-mass. Budgets and expenditures for trains and all related items do get curtailed. And natural attrition is a hugely significant factor - a generation is leaving, bit by bit, the likes-of-which we will never  see again in the hobby, their having grown up during a time (40's , 50's, and early-60's) when trains (and trolleys), real and toy, were omnipresent in daily life. That demographic will not occur again; of that, I am absolutely certain.

FrankM.

Just think how many boys prior to the end of steam wanted to be a steam engine engineer when they grew up (I'd guess about 20%). Now we have kids welded to hand-helds and wanting to be computer programmers. Where do electric trains fit in for them? Back in my grandfather's day, building ship models was popular. How many do that anymore?

Sorry, but I find all the "Grow the Hobby" stuff a bit humorous...unless you work for, or own the stock of a company making electric trains.

Hi Joe, I don't see the humor, but rather, an "inevitability". It appears we are agreed that the ship has already sailed, and is sailing, for what interests the vast majority of young people, these days. And it is not trains, not by any measure like what it used to be.

Everything "has its day." I can recall when big fins on a '59 Caddy were the passion, but I have heard that even muscle car hobbyists, nowadays, are finding their  numbers diminishing, with no further interest, or like-interest, among the younger folk. Such is life, my friend. Such is life.

I simply enjoy it all, am grateful every day, and consider myself fortunate to have been able to revive my interest in model trains after decades of pursuing other interests, having discovered with joy and surprise the large number of fellow hobbyists out there, across the globe, and having had a healthy number of customers and clients that have included my work on happy layouts in a lot of places.

FrankM.

Well, here are my two cents,

I heard this news last week while on vacation in Vegas. I applaud the TCA and Eastern Div. for making the change. With exception (Chris's birth) I have not missed a show since 1973, so like 84/85 shows. Since we had only one hall and we had to run to secure our tables. The hobby has grown over the years and now is going the other way. In 1973 it was like almost 90% old toy trains and hardly any new product.  Now operators have blown past collectors and the industry has changed. I sell old and new trains. The old market prices have tanked (except for rare or mint items). New trains are the excitement these days. The way we (Nassau Hobby) does business has changed too. Over 90% of our sales are not made in the store. Shows like York are critical for us. But York has changed too. We use to go for almost a week. Do the Holidome show, rent a huge truck, extra car, tents and personnel. My costs were in the thousands. But we sold a ton of stuff. Now we are still selling to the same customers, who are aging and disappearing. Lionel, MTH, Atlas and the others do WGH shows and Lionel even has a Lionel National Train Day now. FANTASTIC! We need to get new and younger blood into the hobby. Without them there is no hobby. My old saying to the old-timers, " Remember when you went to a garage sale and bought a 400E for 25.00 bucks? Well those days are coming back!" 

     This will help, I see very few TCA members dropping out over this and many new member joining up to get into the other halls. I see the TCA working a deal to sign up new members. How about Lionel making a special car or something to offer as an excitement to join the TCA on the spot? Are you listening Mike Phillips and Howard Hitchcock? Lets partner to grow the TCA! And Eddie G, I will always get you in early to the Olive Garden. 

C N.....may I say you boxed that round rather well, spot on in every angle 

When you talk about the Olive Garden, do you mean you are putting him out to pasture? 

AIRDALE, Charlie & I go way back with a thing about the Olive garden restaurant.

Ed Walsh posted:

I do believe opening to the public will be a good change.  

- A lot has been said about the "public" and parents getting turned off by the high price of trains.  Obviously some parents cannot afford trains for the kids right now.  But there are an awful lot of parents who can easily afford iPads, iPhones and video games for their kids.  Buying a starter set would be no issue for them.  Buying add on accessories over time in many cases would be no more costly than a new video game.  I think it a mistake to undervalue that demographic.

However, the kids will likely be using their i-whatevers every day.  If the trains are going to join the pile of little used toys in a matter of days or weeks, the parents are certainly not going to buy more train stuff.

- No doubt kids are locked into their electronics these days.  But I would guess that for the most part none of them has ever seem an operating model train layout.  Getting to see all there is in the dealers halls would definitely be an attraction for them.

IF they can get their noses out of their i-whatevers...  Cripes, I see parents letting their kids play games on their phones in Church during mass.

Certainly I have no idea how successful this change will be.  I hope it works out very well for everyone involved.  What I do know is that doing nothing will keep things on track for a slow decline.   

Time will tell...

Regards dropping my membership to save $ and goto York as public.  For me that would seem like I was getting a kind of free ride in that I got to have the York fun without paying for any of the underlying support structure.  Clearly that is a personal decision

I don't see any downside to this decision other than the dealer hall being more crowed on the days open to the public.  And if this change does not have the desired impact then ED/TCA can change it back as quickly as they made this change.

Thanks,

Ed

Rusty

 

"Sorry, but I find all the "Grow the Hobby" stuff a bit humorous...unless you work for, or own the stock of a company making electric trains."

Seriously?!? C'mon - Seriously?!? With that attitude the hobby deserves to shrivel up and die!

If a manufacturer can't grow his consumer base how do you expect them to manufacture the things you want? The best show going hands down is the World's greatest Hobby on Tour - why? Because they bring a whole new group of enthusiastic young  people through the doors who are excited to learn about the hobby and have no preconceived notions about why the hobby is only for old guys who have thrown their hands up and decided that the hobby is on it's last legs! A typical WGH show will bring an average of 20 to 30 thousand people through the doors on a weekend - multiply that by 4 or 5 shows. That's a whole lot of potential new hobbyists. How do they do it? PROMOTION. Perhaps the TCA could talk to the WGH guys and use some of their ideas to draw folks into the meet.

- A lot has been said about the "public" and parents getting turned off by the high price of trains.  Obviously some parents cannot afford trains for the kids right now.  But there are an awful lot of parents who can easily afford iPads, iPhones and video games for their kids.  Buying a starter set would be no issue for them.  Buying add on accessories over time in many cases would be no more costly than a new video game.  I think it a mistake to undervalue that demographic.

The solution is to marry the technology to the trains. Bachmann has just begun to sell Bluetooth equipped HO scale locomotives that are the perfect pairing of smart device technology and model trains. Reports show that parents are interested in toys that combine smart technology and traditional toys - children demand it these days. There is a world of difference in giving a child a traditional train set and handing them something that they can use in combination with the iPad or iPhone that has become a central part of their life. The beauty of the Bluetooth trains are their simplicity. If someone has a smart device all they need is a locomotive - no peripherals, extra interface boxes, controllers, etc.. It is truly plug and play technology. I understand that most of the people reading this forum do not want to run trains this way - although when I hand it off to the guys who visit my booth at the York show they appear to have a pretty good time with it! My point is that without introducing the hobby to the next generation we are doomed to becoming obsolete and even if you don't like the idea of a new way to control them you don't need to embrace it but don't discount the impact that it can have on bringing new people into the fold.

Bob Kazian posted:

The "Security Guards" in the four Member Halls will have a hard job looking at every badge to prevent the Public from coming in.

Not really, make the badge a different color, I can't count how many times I've been stopped at the door because my badge was flipped over so a different color would make it even easier to spot.

Jerry

baltimoretrainworks posted:

Bob Kazian posted:

The "Security Guards" in the four Member Halls will have a hard job looking at every badge to prevent the Public from coming in.

Not really, make the badge a different color, I can't count how many times I've been stopped at the door because my badge was flipped over so a different color would make it even easier to spot.

 

Jerry

Not having a badge would make them even easier to spot. I doubt the "public" will get badges. Maybe just a hand stamp or wrist band. That would eliminate them having to go to the Silver Hall and have badges printed out. Also make entry easier for the TCA members who haven't pre registered.

Pete

I've been lobbying for this for years. Lets take a look at the TCA charter. 

If a manufacturer can't grow his consumer base how do you expect them to manufacture the things you want? The best show going hands down is the World's greatest Hobby on Tour - why? Because they bring a whole new group of enthusiastic young  people through the doors who are excited to learn about the hobby and have no preconceived notions about why the hobby is only for old guys who have thrown their hands up and decided that the hobby is on it's last legs! A typical WGH show will bring an average of 20 to 30 thousand people through the doors on a weekend - multiply that by 4 or 5 shows. That's a whole lot of potential new hobbyists. How do they do it? PROMOTION. Perhaps the TCA could talk to the WGH guys and use some of their ideas to draw folks into the meet.

On the other hand the vast majority of families I've made aware of and have attended a WGH show, went with the kids just to burn some time.  The parents were not into trains and the kids quickly went back to the mind numbing electronics. Without encouragement from parents............

Over the years, I have taken many friends to York as guests; some have joined TCA, and some have not. One friend and coworker I took was in his 60's, and having no room in his house for a layout, and limited space for displaying his trains, which he later sold, joining TCA was just not for him. However, he would have gone to York again, as would some of the others I've taken, if the meet was open. 

It was mentioned that there are other meets at York open to the public, but the reputation of the TCA York meet adds a different dimension to the mix. I know of many folks who have heard about the ED  York meet, and expressed a desire to go. Most don't go because they don't know someone to take them as guests. 

I'm sure there will be members who will drop their memberships, knowing they can go to York without membership. The TCA does need to examine its current status, and take some steps that the LCCA has taken to better promote its mission. Only time will tell if this is good for Eastern Division. Many other divisions open their meets to the public, and many are thriving.

Don

I would take the posts from Jack (WBB) to heart. He has made some good points on how to grow the hobby. The marrying of Bluetooth to our trains will bring big dividends in the near future. 

I bought some of the HO locomotives he is talking about and it is incredible. All you need is the locomotive some track and power and off you go running trains. Download the app onto your phone or tablet then go run trains. 

The kids I have showed this to, just love it and for once running trains in the way they like to do. And just think this is only the beginning of what this Bluetooth Technolgy will be able to do. 

Dave

I can't believe how many EXPERT'S are on this thread.

eddie g posted:

I can't believe how many EXPERT'S are on this thread.

Eddie, mark your calander. October 22nd, 8AM, Orange Hall, Eastern Division Buisness meeting open to all TCA members. Attend the meeting and you can become an expert too. Not all of the reasons for this change have been mentioned. Attend the meeting and you will find out.

Pete

eddie g posted:

I can't believe how many EXPERT'S are on this thread.

How would you go about promoting our hobby eddie g?  You never said. Go ahead I'm all ears (and eyes!). Easier still, how much has changed from when you started trains till this present time? .........*"Tempora mutantur, nos et mutantur in illis"

There is some very good recommendations here, what is wrong with that?

*Times change and we change with them.

Airedale,

Thanks a lot - trying to remember my high school Latin was painful 

Ed

The bottom line is to have as many dealers and member tables as possible because more trains and peripherals means a better show. If York continues to wither, dealers would continue to withdraw which would likely have just perpetuated the cycle. 

York is impacted by the changes wrought by the Internet as any train show or hobby shop would be. Soon, we will have only supermarkets, liquor stores and Starbucks. I digress.

If the bleeding is to stop, more traffic is required. For more traffic, you need more people and that means the public. If you want a bigger York show, these changes are an absolute necessity.

PS: Growing the hobby? What a "No brainer." Any train person should know that. Bring trains into the schools. I have been banging away at that idea for years. I did a train show at a local elementary school and I have NEVER seen kids more excited about anything, including video games. Period.

Scrapiron

eddie g posted:

I can't believe how many EXPERT'S are on this thread.

I'm not an expert but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. 

This is a good move.  The goal should be to grow the hobby and restrictions/exclusions do not support that goal.  I will continue to support train clubs with my renewals because its not about what I can get but about supporting a group that fosters the hobby.