York goes public in the Spring of 2017

We've seen the TCA membership age up and with that the decline in members over the past several years as well as a decrease in York meet table holders and observed attendance.  I'm sure the EDiv board sees the trends in both numbers and dollars.  York IS the EDiv's baby and likely their financial bread & butter, where the TCA also benefits through the recruitment of new members.  This mutually beneficial relationship has grown and matured.  The venue costs are likely growing where as the gate receipts are declining or projected to decline.  Even though the York meet is EDiv and primarily entirely under their control, I'm happy that both groups opened the dialog with some of the manufacturers and large dealers to see what can be done to strengthen the show and hobby.

I'm in favor of the change.  If the public access implementation is thoughtfully planned, marketed and executed this could be a win/win/win for the EDiv, TCA and the hobby.  As others mentioned, public access can be established later in the meet's run (FRI and or SAT) and possibly at later times so that TCA members get a few hours of early access on those public days.  Building access and admission rates can likely be easily monitored without much change to their current setup; like other venues or events possibly use colored wristbands to easily identify the public from the TCA badge holders.  I also hope members remember that the post meet evaluation success or failure process will definitely take more than one meet cycle.

Lastly, as others mentioned this public access which was somewhat spearheaded by the mfr & dealer groups should put emphasis on those same Orange Hall mfr & dealers to maintain their full tables for the entire listed length of the meet and not be permitted to pack up with hours remaining.

eddie g posted:

I can't believe how many EXPERT'S are on this thread.

Many of us come from the business world and if we are successful, we can be indeed be considered experts. However, you don't need to be an expert to understand a basic principle of how business operates. You widen your audience, you win, you limit your audience, you lose.  Its really that simple! Do you find it odd that the WGH Show on tour draws 30,000 to 40,000 in two days while York draws maybe 14,000 in three?

Can I assume that everyone contributing to this thread so far has actually been to York? I have not, and I am not even sure what is there. Being sponsored by TCA gives me the impression that the York shows emphasize three-rail O gauge trains, with perhaps a bit of "large scale" and S gauge thrown in. If the entire show, or merely the dealer hall as you have suggested, is opened to the public, then will the public be forewarned that this is not the place to find additions for their HO nor N scale worlds? In other words, how does York differ from WGH, Greenburg and other all-scales NMRA train shows?

I have not avoided York because of the distance from Oregon. In recent years I have hopped on Amtrak for the 3-day and 3-night train ride to NASG S scale conventions in New York and Massachusetts and a National Narrow Gauge Convention in Maine. But I do hesitate to take off for York without knowing whether On30 manufacturers other than Bachmann will be there, or attending S scale manufacturers will anticipate customers who discard hi-rail trucks and couplers for scale-compatable alternatives.  

eddie g posted:

I can't believe how many EXPERT'S are on this thread.

Eddie,....

....and 'we' are all here to help you through this!...

...Even if we aren't staying at a Holiday Inn Express!!........

.

.

.

.

BAZINGA!!!!!

KD

Gil in Oregon posted:

 

I have not avoided York because of the distance from Oregon. In recent years I have hopped on Amtrak for the 3-day and 3-night train ride to NASG S scale conventions in New York and Massachusetts and a National Narrow Gauge Convention in Maine. But I do hesitate to take off for York without knowing whether On30 manufacturers other than Bachmann will be there, or attending S scale manufacturers will anticipate customers who discard hi-rail trucks and couplers for scale-compatable alternatives.  

I would suggest waiting until next October to get some feedback on what is offered in April. If the Eastern Division gets the word out that it will be an open show then more vendors may show up and also some of the multi scale dealers that already show up will bring some of their HO, N, and On30 items rather than just their O, S, or G scale items. Bachmann will be there and I know of one vendor that sells On30 almost exclusively but I can't recall seeing any other On30 besides Bachmann.

On the other hand the vast majority of families I've made aware of and have attended a WGH show, went with the kids just to burn some time.  The parents were not into trains and the kids quickly went back to the mind numbing electronics. Without encouragement from parents............

Well I'm a "Glass half full" kind of guy. I see 25-30, 000 potential new hobbyists and I enjoy spreading the word to new blood about what a great hobby it model railroading is. They would not be there if there wasn't an interest and you would be surprised at how many folks tell me about their experiences doing it with their dad or grandfather when they were growing up. It is also amazing to see how many folks out there are totally unaware of the hobby and it is a great opportunity to play evangelist to them. No sir I wouldn't give up the WGH shows - we consider them the most important shows of the year!

Excellent Idea!!!!!

Gil in Oregon posted:

Can I assume that everyone contributing to this thread so far has actually been to York? I have not, and I am not even sure what is there. Being sponsored by TCA gives me the impression that the York shows emphasize three-rail O gauge trains, with perhaps a bit of "large scale" and S gauge thrown in. If the entire show, or merely the dealer hall as you have suggested, is opened to the public, then will the public be forewarned that this is not the place to find additions for their HO nor N scale worlds? In other words, how does York differ from WGH, Greenburg and other all-scales NMRA train shows?

I have not avoided York because of the distance from Oregon. In recent years I have hopped on Amtrak for the 3-day and 3-night train ride to NASG S scale conventions in New York and Massachusetts and a National Narrow Gauge Convention in Maine. But I do hesitate to take off for York without knowing whether On30 manufacturers other than Bachmann will be there, or attending S scale manufacturers will anticipate customers who discard hi-rail trucks and couplers for scale-compatable alternatives.  

Its no secret ... that York is an O gauge meet, if you are ho,s, whatever, you will likely be disappointed

Its no secret ... that York is an O gauge meet, if you are ho,s, whatever, you will likely be disappointed

I collect and run only S. I've never been disappointed. Nowhere at any all gauge show that I have ever attended since  starting in the late 70's have I seen as much quality or quantity of S gauge available. The sheer logistics of the quantity of O gauge available mirrors the quantities and market share that O gauge had and currently has. The old adage "If you can't find it York, chances are that you can't find it" is something that I believe in. Greenburg shows are a mere shell of what's represented at York and the WGH shows I've attended are mostly manufacturer oriented with little selection of resale trains.

Gil in Oregon posted:

Can I assume that everyone contributing to this thread so far has actually been to York? I have not, and I am not even sure what is there. Being sponsored by TCA gives me the impression that the York shows emphasize three-rail O gauge trains, with perhaps a bit of "large scale" and S gauge thrown in. If the entire show, or merely the dealer hall as you have suggested, is opened to the public, then will the public be forewarned that this is not the place to find additions for their HO nor N scale worlds? In other words, how does York differ from WGH, Greenburg and other all-scales NMRA train shows?

I have not avoided York because of the distance from Oregon. In recent years I have hopped on Amtrak for the 3-day and 3-night train ride to NASG S scale conventions in New York and Massachusetts and a National Narrow Gauge Convention in Maine. But I do hesitate to take off for York without knowing whether On30 manufacturers other than Bachmann will be there, or attending S scale manufacturers will anticipate customers who discard hi-rail trucks and couplers for scale-compatable alternatives.  

Gil,

I can tell you that yes there is a lot of O gauge, but I saw quite a bit of S gauge too. There is more O gauge because it is the most popular. There is something for everyone. Don't go by what me or anyone else tells you, see for yourself. Plus you can visit Strasburg and see the train museum and the TCA museum which has running layouts of all gauges. Eat at a Amish buffet the food is outstanding or go to Gettysburg. Make a nice trip of it. Sorry I sound like a commercial, but it's all true.

I think the representation of "S" is amazing, not only at York, but at Allentown and even Greenberg shows. However, I have found that some of the "Woodland Scenics Readybuilt" HO buildings work fine in my S layout, but only O versions are sold at York. HO versions were even missing in Allentown this year. York dealers also sell  M2 diecast cars. These are really good S models of 1950s cars.

Gil in Oregon posted:

 will the public be forewarned that this is not the place to find additions for their HO nor N scale worlds? In other words, how does York differ from WGH, Greenburg and other all-scales NMRA train shows?

 

I don't think they need to be "forewarned" since special to York dealers, like Miller Engineering signs and Scenic Express would have products for a number of scales. The WGH show that I attended (Philadelphia) had very few dealers selling stuff you usually find at train shows...in fact, I was told by dealers, that the only thing really selling was "Thomas" stuff. The Greenberg Show, held in the Orange Hall at York every January, has more HO, N, and G stuff than will be found in that hall 3 months later.

With that in mind, I suggest dealers take a lot of "Thomas" do-dads with them to sell to "the public" in April.

The Reliance Fire Hall is 99.9% S and that remains open even after the fairgrounds open. That hall alone is at least as big as 50% of the local all gauge shows you are likely to attend. As for HO there is almost as much as you are likely to find at a local show, just spread out more. There tend to be many great deals due to lack of demand. In April a seller had about 30 HO brass cabooses, some painted, some not tagged for an average of around 75 bucks.

Pete

Look at the bright side of going public.  Maybe Lionel can actually sell one of these things! 

With that in mind, I suggest dealers take a lot of "Thomas" do-dads with them to sell to "the public" in April.

This brings a question to mind that I don't think has been discussed: Will the dealers modify what they bring to the show in anticipation of the general public's participation? I can think of a couple of vendors who bring different merchandise to public shows.

I find it lacking that I have not received anything from the TCA or ED announcing this change, explaining what they are doing, why, and what they hope to achieve from this change.

Also, I feel that TCA ED members should have been able to vote on this issue.

This has been handled poorly by TCA and ED leadership.

C W Burfle posted:

With that in mind, I suggest dealers take a lot of "Thomas" do-dads with them to sell to "the public" in April.

This brings a question to mind that I don't think has been discussed: Will the dealers modify what they bring to the show in anticipation of the general public's participation? I can think of a couple of vendors who bring different merchandise to public shows.

I doubt if they will for the April show. If there is little to no advertising to the "public", few may show up to "save" the hobby. 

If the Eastern Division, or a group of dealers decide to pay for advertising, then yes...take some stuff to appeal to the "day trippers". Although I have never been a seller, I have spent "full time" at 2 Yorks, one WGHS, and about 7 Greenberg and other shows as a modular layout member. Hence, I've spent many hours looking at people rather than at stuff on tables.

The April meet should be very interesting. I hope that I can make it.

Craignor posted:

I find it lacking that I have not received anything from the TCA or ED explaining what they are doing, why,  and what they hope to achieve from this change.

Also, I feel that TCA ED members should have been able to vote on this issue.

This has been handled poorly by TCA and ED leadership.

They hope to get back in the black. The ED has been in the red for the last two Yorks. Costs are going up and revenue is going down despite raising the charge for members and their spouses. If they continue to loose money York, as you know it, will be gone. Simple as that. This fact was made public at the business meeting last April. Anyone could have attended. Make point of attending the next one.

I suspect no annoucement was made is because the change depended on working out a deal with the PA tax department. No deal and things would have remained the same, at least until the doors closed.

Pete

They hope to get back in the black. The ED has been in the red for the last two Yorks. Costs are going up and revenue is going down despite raising the charge for members and their spouses. If they continue to loose money York, as you know it, will be gone. Simple as that. This fact was made public at the business meeting last April. Anyone could have attended. Make point of attending the next one.

For heavens sake, why didn't they raise the admission and table fees enough to cover expenses? What would they have to charge?

You forget the wailing when admission was raised from 12 bucks. Another major factor was when TCA National raised the dues to 50 from 35. ED had nothing to do with that. Might not seem much to some but I know a few people who dropped out on that alone.

The fairgrounds just raised their rates and plan to raise them again in 2017. All the support services have also raised their rates. 

If things continue the way they are going now I think its questionable York will make it much past 2020. Simply closing a few more buildings doesn't reduce the cost by much. If they change the venue or city/state will the no sale tax deal stay in effect? 

Pete

BURFLE, I hope we meet up sometime before my last York which I believe will be April. October will be a real test for me considering what I went thru in March.

BURFLE, I hope we meet up sometime before my last York which I believe will be April. October will be a real test for me considering what I went thru in March.

Sorry Eddie, I am not certain when I might make it back to York, for reasons that have nothing to do with opening the dealer halls to the public.
I am glad to read that you plan to be at York in October. 
Enjoy the show!

Wow / Five pages............ over three thousand views.....

You forget the wailing when admission was raised from 12 bucks. Another major factor was when TCA National raised the dues to 50 from 35. ED had nothing to do with that. Might not seem much to some but I know a few people who dropped out on that alone.

Let them wail.  For most York attendees, I'd guess that the cost of admission is not even measurable when compared to their other expenses. 

York table prices are less than any of the local shows in my range.
All of our shows are one day, open to the public, and tables are at least $25 each. I just purchased tables for a local show that cost $35 each. Plus all shows require NYS tax numbers.

What hasn't increased in price?
Regal Cinemas gets $12.85 and up for a ticket during prime time.

I hope the ED gets the results they want, but I have my doubts.

... I see 25-30, 000 potential new hobbyists .......

From where? A 100 mile radius of York? As great as we think the Orange and Purple halls are, it won't draw 25,000+ to the site. That's more than the amount that ever attended the whole meet. If you say 25000+ over a period of time, is that time coming fast enough to satisfy the greed driving this coup? Another post mentions Eastern Division being in the red. Others mention TCA needs new members. The manufacturers want new customers and whether they care if the TCA gets enough new members is suspect in my mind. Opening the dealer halls to the public is maybe a local shot in the arm IMO - a market segment already served for free by the bandit meets. Opening the member halls isn't going to convince a distant hobbyist of the value to join TCA - they would have done it already. A slippery slope and back room secrets will get all the halls open to the public down the road. Then I don't need the TCA. Certain things change to the point that they are no longer what they were originally.

 is that time coming fast enough to satisfy the greed driving this coup? 

The manufacturers want new customers and whether they care if the TCA gets enough new members is suspect 

back room secrets will get all the halls open to the public down the road

Jerry

I see a lot of opinions on this thread.  IMO the answer lies in why you go to York.  For me,I  I go because it's an O gauge mecca.  I can make my list, I can have unexpected finds, I can see new stuff and it's fun.  It's a 10 hour round tip, 2 day adventure for me.  My wife likes the York adventure too.   I've been to Greenberg and the Big E both now multi gauge shows.  I like going to those, I like seeing the layouts but I have no O gauge expections but am pleasantly suppired if I find some.  I'll go 2-4 hours round trip for Greenberg or the Big E.    The bottom line for me is York is an O gauge experience worth the trip.   If it turns into a multi gauge event, I suspect that's a non-starter for me.

You guy's should look at your Registration Booklet it now cost $14.00 for early registration that started last April .

After reading through this entire post I'd like to get things back on track.  Whether anyone cares to admit it or not; the York event is not about club friendship.  That can be a side benefit but it all comes down to money and profit. The event must bring in enough cash to pay all expenses. The dealers must bring in enough business to pay for their booth space, lodging, travel, trucking, food, employee salaries and come away with a profit.  Many dealers are not reaping big rewards from their presence at York. If you keep raising the admission and the table rental cost, will they continue to be there??. Without dealers there is no York.  The E.D may not know it yet but they must make wholesale revisions to the meet to keep it from going away.  They must pattern the York event after the WGH on tour show. That means wide open gates, stuff for families, young children, non-hobbyists and the traditonal TCA crowd. York needs to be an attractive family event with a carnival outside, games and rides for the children..   For those that disagree I must remind them that ideals and reality are often very far apart and that ignorance is defined as doing things the same way and expecting a different result.

C W Burfle posted:

For heavens sake, why didn't they raise the admission and table fees enough to cover expenses? What would they have to charge?

I think I've heard sentiments before of not wanting it to become more expensive for ED members where this is their "local" division meet.  (Realizing fully that due to the way the division lines are drawn I'm much closer to York as an Atlantic Division member (2 hours car) than many members within the ED from let's say the upstate NY area are)

As a member outside of the ED, I would never have had any problem with it if they had charged more for those of us not in the ED.  The value in terms of amount of trains available over the 2-3 days is so far beyond a standard Greenberg show.

Years ago, when they still had Greenberg shows with more frequency in my local area, I used to go all the time, and it was something like $7-8 for a single day, even 10-15 years ago.  I would have easily been willing to pay $20 or more for my 2-3 day York admission (even back then) compared to that.  I would think (but may be mistaken) that most folks investing so much to visit from out of town (hotel, food, maybe even plane and/or car rental) would consider the ticket cost the least of their expenses.  While the increase might not have been popular, I doubt it would have caused a huge drop off in attendance.

(Maybe I am way off base though, considering the complaints about the TCA dues increase and then the small York admission increase)

Another thought here, it seems an organization with a significant trend towards older members is not necessarily served by offering a discount to those fitting that demographic.  I have no problem paying more than senior citizens myself, I fully get the limits on income during retirement for some, etc, but if it is non-sustainable due to increasing costs of the event, that is a problem.  It's sort of like if an amusement park offered 20% discounts on admission for all kids from 5-17 years old.  Just doesn't make financial sense.

-Dave

Dennis LaGrua posted:

 Without dealers there is no York.  

Well York as we know it. There was York before the manufacturers and if they went away York will still exist. Just differently. As a members only, smaller meet. 

Judging from the reactions from a few that's just fine with them. Personally I applaud the EDTCA for trying. I just don't think these changes will amount the much. I hope I'm wrong. I think the majority of the folks they'll be trying to attract are already there. 

Dennis LaGrua posted:

After reading through this entire post I'd like to get things back on track.  Whether anyone cares to admit it or not; the York event is not about club friendship.  That can be a side benefit but it all comes down to money and profit. The event must bring in enough cash to pay all expenses. The dealers must bring in enough business to pay for their booth space, lodging, travel, trucking, food, employee salaries and come away with a profit.  Many dealers are not reaping big rewards from their presence at York. If you keep raising the admission and the table rental cost, will they continue to be there??. Without dealers there is no York.  The E.D may not know it yet but they must make wholesale revisions to the meet to keep it from going away.  They must pattern the York event after the WGH on tour show. That means wide open gates, stuff for families, young children, non-hobbyists and the traditonal TCA crowd. York needs to be an attractive family event with a carnival outside, games and rides for the children..   For those that disagree I must remind them that ideals and reality are often very far apart and that ignorance is defined as doing things the same way and expecting a different result.

For a change I actually agree with part of what Dennis is saying here. The dealers have to make a profit and (I have said this before) if they aren't making a profit then I have no problem whatsoever with any dealer who pulls out of York. If someday York goes back to being a meet like it was in its early years then so be it.

That being said here's where I disagree with Dennis. I find awfully hard to believe that even with "wide open gates, stuff for families, young children, and non-hobbyists" are going to make up the difference for the dealers. These folks will be buying wooden train whistles, plastic toy engines, and possibly a Brio or Thomas tank car. They had better be buying tons of this stuff if they alone are going to make up the difference for the dealers so that the dealers can come away with a nice profit which will allow the dealers to continue to attend York. Obviously, the traditional TCA crowd will be buying very little of this type of merchandise.

I would like to see York continue as it is right now and I would like to see this experiment work but I find it hard to believe that the general public is going to "save" this meet.

The only good I can see coming from this is a few kids may get the train bug and 30-40 years from now get back into the hobby. If that happens great. If it doesn't then at least the ED tried to promote the hobby.

One other thing. I like Dennis' idea of a Carnival. Just curious but where will they put this Carnival? In the center of the race track? And how many kids will get interested in trains because their parents took them to a Carnival in the same fairgrounds as a train meet? And the big question will TCA members get a discount on the rides and admission? (to the Carnival)

October and April are often a bit on the chilly side for a typical summer carnival type event, no?  If it brings people, great, but that seems oddball timing for that type of event/side attraction.

(Aside from the anomalies, like the time in the late 90's when it was something like 94 degrees for one day during the April meet)

-Dave

I have found the weather to be quite pleasant for most of the years I have been going, with mostly sunny days and temps ranging from the 60's to mid 70's. There have been a few rainy shows, but nothing a brisk walk with an umbrella couldn't fix. 

Don

If the York TCA is going public in April, it would boost a lot of revenue for the TCA. A lot of people including me want to go the York TCA since it is the biggest o gauge show on the east coast. The problem is, you have to join the TCA after your first visit as a guest and it will cost you $50 per person which is pretty **** expensive and it is only run on Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays until 2pm in which people have work and kids have school. It would be great if it was run on Saturdays and Sundays so that it can have an equal amount of people going to the show to others like Greenberg and the WGH on tour. All without joining the TCA.    

mpeck161 posted:

If the York TCA is going public in April, it would boost a lot of revenue for the TCA. A lot of people including me want to go the York TCA since it is the biggest o gauge show on the east coast. The problem is, you have to join the TCA after your first visit as a guest and it will cost you $50 per person which is pretty **** expensive and it is only run on Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays until 2pm in which people have work and kids have school. It would be great if it was run on Saturdays and Sundays so that it can have an equal amount of people going to the show to others like Greenberg and the WGH on tour. All without joining the TCA.    

Your point on the days held could certainly be considered  valid.  Most people who still work take vacation days to attend, but not everyone has that flexibility, obviously.

As to the other points, this effect could actually hurt the National TCA if people drop out, not cause it to gain revenue as you suggest.  The beneficiary (if any) here will be the Eastern Division of TCA that runs the meet(unless this change turns the financials around so drastically that the EDTCA can then donate proceeds back to National).  It's a pretty common misconception that the meet is run by TCA National, but it is not.

People stop paying TCA National dues = less money for TCA National = even lower TCA membership numbers (which have been going down for a while).  Your last point pretty much states you would never have any intention of joining the TCA National. 

As to the $50 per person (if one was to join TCA National), assuming the other people you might like to bring are either your spouse/significant other or your kids, they do not need to be full members in order to be allowed to attend the meet.

Well, after reading EVERY post in this thread I felt like it was my turn to opine, so here goes.   Membership in the TCA is a choice not a requirement (unless you wish to attend the York Experience) in which case it is.   The TCA is a membership required organization available to those who have an avid interest in "Toy Trains".   For the most part they are all "Toy Trains" (I know I'm going to get dinged for that last statement).   So, if one joins the TCA they realize they are joining because they have a love of "Toy Trains".  NOT because they wish to experience YORK.   York is one of the benefits of being a member in the great organization we call The TCA.  If a person decides to join the TCA just to attend York, that is their personal choice and I'm pretty sure those folks are OK with that decision and the subsequent costs that are relative to that choice.   If people do not think it is worth their hard earned dollars having to pay for a TCA Membership just to have to pay a few bucks more for the York experience, again, that is a personal choice as well, however, don't complain about it, just keep those hard earned dollars in your pocket and walk away.   There ARE a few of us that don't mind the total cash outlay to attend York (for me it's gas, turnpike tolls from Ohio, overnight accommodations, food etc.)  and you don't hear us *****ing about those of you that complain about the cost.  Do ya?   Regardless if York is open to the "public" or not, I just hope it will still be around for a long time along with the TCA.   Hey, what does the Government do when they need money?  RAISE TAXES!   So, what should the TCA Eastern Div./TCA Museum do when they need more money?   Increase revenue any way they can think of.   If that means opening York to the "public" for a couple of days twice a year, so be it!   Just  sayin'

Chief Bob (Retired)  

Wigville RR posted:

You guy's should look at your Registration Booklet it now cost $14.00 for early registration that started last April .

Howdy Wigville RR,

It's $15.50 if ya do it on line and have your badge mailed.

Chief Bob (Retired)

i have yet to see, where raising the price of anything , solves the problem, the show needs to be moved,  so its in a major city,  with access, parking, highways etc...