York goes public in the Spring of 2017

2. Allowing cell phone use and some photography has not done a thing to bring back members. In fact, some posters claiming they will join TCA if allowed into the show also said this about cell phones and cameras in the past.

I think you can add the elimination of the 2 signature sponsorship rule --- Has anything been shared with the members regarding the success in recruiting new members?
There seem to be lots of new members listed in each issue of the National Headquarters news. I wonder how many people join per month.

I guess I could sense a bit with the lower number of tables and all (as well as the "gentleman's agreement by the large importers to tone down the elaborate displays several years back), but until it was revealed in this thread that the ED had actually been losing money on the meet for the last few years, I was not fully aware of that being an actual fact.

Maybe if the Eastern Division communicated with its members...........

Maybe if they dropped Thursday or offered one day only tables (members only) they would sell more tables.
And as I wrote earlier, they could raise the prices of tables and admission too. York member tables are less expensive than those at the local one day shows I attend.

Who the heck would come 500 to 3,000 miles for a 1 day meet? I think the meet should open at 9 or 10 on Thursday. It's stupid to sit around all morning on Thursday waiting the meet to open.

It is my opinion that the Eastern division should go back to a 2 day show, keep the member only rule and others as they now are.

i feel any change from this will lead to the demise of these meets as we now know them, and may eventually lead to the end of the TCA. 

Gary G

eddie g posted:

Who the heck would come 500 to 3,000 miles for a 1 day meet?

Are you really that out of touch with reality?  Just because you can't visualize traveling past the corner stop sign, doesn't mean that others don't travel and make an even of it for themselves.

Jut for an example, the Indianapolis meet is 575 miles from me and the Chicago meet is over 700 miles one way.  Both are day and a 1/2 meets and I'm at both for their duration.  I flew to Chicago one year.  The Strasburg meet is only a 1/2 day - just under 140 miles.  There and back in a long day more times than I can count now.

BTW, hurray for 11 pages!

eddie g posted:

 I think the meet should open at 9 or 10 on Thursday. It's stupid to sit around all morning on Thursday waiting the meet to open.

I agree Eddie.  10 am would be ideal and allow time for vendors / members to come in early and set up.

I prefer the noon Thursday opening time.  It gives the dealers who drive in from nearby states enough time to get set up.  Anything is better than the old days where dealers and members went in at the same time.  The aisles were blocked by boxes of dealers trying to get set up and the members trying to navigate and quickly see as much as they can.

The number and date of paid public can be measured easily.   Their impact on "dollars spent" cannot.  Regardless, you wont find an O/S gauge crowd with more spending power at ANY train meet in the USA, much less twice a year.

The " I'm not going until it's free" crowd will always be with us and usually the most vocal.  If there was a charge for being on this forum, they would disappear quickly due to cost concerns.

The peak of this era of train collecting has definitely passed.  Probably at least 50% of the show dollars are now generated by newer vintage merchandise.

IMO, the peak of this hobby has definitely passed as well, and onto a generation of much less disposable income and a shorter attention span.   Yes everyone has a grandchild that is interested.  What is required is new members with disposable income to cover those people who die or leave the hobby every year.

If you prefer the WGH and Greenberg/HO train atmosphere then York is probably not for you.  If you prefer to show your trains, rather than sell your trains, then York may not be for you.

EDTCA will obviously need to figure out how to price the public admission in a way to also keep the TCA members from leaving.

Let's enjoy what we have, and support any reasonable changes to try to help extend it.

Now on to page 12 and the "rest of the story".

eddie g posted:

Who the heck would come 500 to 3,000 miles for a 1 day meet? I think the meet should open at 9 or 10 on Thursday. It's stupid to sit around all morning on Thursday waiting the meet to open.

Eddie...   Even if we'd (wife & I) experienced York only once, knowing what it holds in comparison to other shows, meets, sales events, etc., you'd better believe we'd drive our 600 miles one way for a one-day York meet.  Not even in question.

That said, I doubt York would be the size/scope event it is were it limited to a single day.....even a L-O-N-G day!

Lastly, I agree with you...it is "stupid to sit around all morning on Thursday waiting the meet to open.'  Better would be to use the time to get a healthy leisurely breakfast, seek out some friends to share the pre-meet time with (especially good on a fair-weather day!), take a stroll around the grounds, take time to thank the Good Lord for health and wherewithal to even be at York, find a member sitting alone you've never met, introduce yourself, find out where they live, what they're looking for at York, what sort of collecting/operating/building they're into in the hobby....etc., etc., etc..    

Or, we can all just sit around and be stupid.

Which is really stupid......IMHO.

KD

The format allowed for selected security, badged members only.  It will be interesting to see the new security system, when open to the general public.  I would think opening to the general public would mean an increase in the attendance fee to cover additional cost (security upgrade being one of concern).  IMO. 

Mike CT

Just goes to show you can't please everyone. The EDTCA does an incredible job and all a lot of us do is gripe. Sheesh. See I like the late Thursday start so I can travel in and then go to the meet opening. If the EDTCA changes it so be it. I'll adjust. 

MWB,& you would make it thru all the halls ad see everything in one day, or are you one of those people that only go to the orange & purple halls?  In case you don't know it, I drive 535 miles each way to York. I have missed 3 meets since 1976, and I am now 86. See you in Oct.

Who the heck would come 500 to 3,000 miles for a 1 day meet? I think the meet should open at 9 or 10 on Thursday. It's stupid to sit around all morning on Thursday waiting the meet to open.

I don't think I expressed myself clearly. I was not suggesting that York become a one day show.

I think the show would draw more member table holders if it was returned to a two day show. IMHO, the show lost a lot of casual sellers when it was changed to three days. Why? - because many of us have other obligations like family and work. Not to mention the cost of food and lodging for an additional day. I don't think it was a coincidence that folks were allowed more than one table shortly after the show went to three days.

Starting the show before noon on Thursday would compound the problem, because those of us who can leave early Thursday morning and still get there in time to set up for noon would no longer be able to do so.

An alternative to going back to a two day show would be to offer member table holders the option to get a table for only one day. Maybe dedicate one of the smaller halls to one day tables. Offer some each day of the show. Limit the number. - I think it is something to consider.

Anything is better than the old days where dealers and members went in at the same time.  The aisles were blocked by boxes of dealers trying to get set up and the members trying to navigate and quickly see as much as they can.

Believe it or not, some people preferred when the show was started that way. The "closed box" rule prevents early trading between table holders. NETCA used to do the same thing. They switched long ago.
If you don't think "trading" happens before the show opens, I have a nice bridge for sale.

C W Burfle posted:

An alternative to going back to a two day show would be to offer member table holders the option to get a table for only one day. Maybe dedicate one of the smaller halls to one day tables. Offer some each day of the show. Limit the number. - I think it is something to consider.

Considering that there are empty tables every meet, a one-day table would be a way to fill them (assuming that the tables weren't paid for by someone for the purpose of holding the spot).  EDTCA could charge $12 for a Thursday-only table, $15 for a Friday-only table, $12 for a Friday+Saturday-only table, and $10 for a Saturday-only table (not that I think there would be many takers on this option) .  It would mean a little extra work for the EDTCA and the hall captains would have to be involved with security to allow one-day holders to pack up after the halls close for the day.  But it would fill the tables, and bring in a little extra $$$.

I still wonder what the difference in costs would be if the meet were Friday thru Sunday (same hours, just shifted days)?  I know it wouldn't matter to a retired person, but for people like me, it would mean 2 vacation days that could be used elsewhere, and for some others who just can't take off during the weekdays it might make a world of difference in their ability to attend.  And considering the push to open the dealer halls to the non-TCA-public, is the non-TCA-public really going to attend on a weekday?

Andy

Considering that there are empty tables every meet, a one-day table would be a way to fill them (assuming that the tables weren't paid for by someone for the purpose of holding the spot).  EDTCA could charge $12 for a Thursday-only table, $15 for a Friday-only table, $12 for a Friday+Saturday-only table, and $10 for a Saturday-only table (not that I think there would be many takers on this option) .  It would mean a little extra work for the EDTCA and the hall captains would have to be involved with security to allow one-day holders to pack up after the halls close for the day.  But it would fill the tables, and bring in a little extra $$$.

I wouldn't discount the price of  "reduced duration" tables. The tables are too cheap already. One day shows in my area get $25 or more for each table. (I'd raise all prices for the show)

Here is another thought: If some folks were only set up for one day, and that day was spread across all three days, some folks might stick around longer to see what is new each day.
The show forces member table holders to be there all three days. But currently there is nothing to encourage the buyers to stick around.

Andy Hummell posted:

 

I still wonder what the difference in costs would be if the meet were Friday thru Sunday (same hours, just shifted days)?  I know it wouldn't matter to a retired person, but for people like me, it would mean 2 vacation days that could be used elsewhere, and for some others who just can't take off during the weekdays it might make a world of difference in their ability to attend.  And considering the push to open the dealer halls to the non-TCA-public, is the non-TCA-public really going to attend on a weekday?

Andy

I'm pretty happy with the current Thursday-Saturday schedule.  While I understand that folks have to use vacation and such that's fine by me.  I have a hard enough time using mine up.  York is truly a "Traincation"  for me anyways.  Plus I do like have Sunday to decompress after the meet.  Again you'll never please everyone.

If they change it, I'll adjust.  I think the important thing here is to do what it takes to keep York going.

C W Burfle posted:

If you don't think "trading" happens before the show opens, I have a nice bridge for sale.

I think this is part of the "draw" for a number of member sellers...you know, the ones with the same high priced stuff from meet to meet. I'm not knocking it, however.

I still wonder what the difference in costs would be if the meet were Friday thru Sunday (same hours, just shifted days)?  I know it wouldn't matter to a retired person, but for people like me, it would mean 2 vacation days that could be used elsewhere, and for some others who just can't take off during the weekdays it might make a world of difference in their ability to attend. 

This may be an inconvience for many table holders as leaving late on Sunday compresses the trip home and return to work on Monday. Probably the reason for the "early start home" on Sat.

C W Burfle posted:

Here is another thought: If some folks were only set up for one day, and that day was spread across all three days, some folks might stick around longer to see what is new each day.
The show forces member table holders to be there all three days. But currently there is nothing to encourage the buyers to stick around.

There is a Allentown Antique Paper Show (post cards, posters, magazines, etc.) that does this. Some of the dealers are different, Saturday vs Sunday.

C W Burfle posted:

Here is another thought: If some folks were only set up for one day, and that day was spread across all three days, some folks might stick around longer to see what is new each day.
The show forces member table holders to be there all three days. But currently there is nothing to encourage the buyers to stick around.

Another way to encourage buyers to stick around would be to re-vamp the door prize system and ask the big manufacturers (Lionel, MTH, Atlas and Bachmann) to donate some ready-to-run sets, engines and rolling stock and actually hold drawings where the winner must be present to win.  Start on Thursday with the smaller prizes and work up to the biggest prizes on Saturday, and if prizes from Thursday and Friday go unclaimed, tack them on to Saturday's prize to make it even bigger.  And if the prizes are unclaimed on Saturday, they can then be held over until the next meet and the jackpot can grow.

Andy

Andy Hummell posted:

 Start on Thursday with the smaller prizes and work up to the biggest prizes on Saturday, and if prizes from Thursday and Friday go unclaimed, tack them on to Saturday's prize to make it even bigger.  And if the prizes are unclaimed on Saturday, they can then be held over until the next meet and the jackpot can grow.

Andy

Well that seems rather underhanded to get people to stay 3 days.  I agree better door prizes could be a nice attraction but I think you would have to do daily drawings with out the "jackpot" clause.  I think the way you suggested would certainly cause ill will among the attendees especially since not everyone even considers going all 3 days. 

richabr posted:

I still wonder what the difference in costs would be if the meet were Friday thru Sunday (same hours, just shifted days)?  I know it wouldn't matter to a retired person, but for people like me, it would mean 2 vacation days that could be used elsewhere, and for some others who just can't take off during the weekdays it might make a world of difference in their ability to attend. 

This may be an inconvience for many table holders as leaving late on Sunday compresses the trip home and return to work on Monday. Probably the reason for the "early start home" on Sat.

What would the difference be between taking Thursday and Friday off vs. taking Friday and Monday off?  Either way, 2 days are used.  And if someone doesn't need that day of rest after, then they save a day.  I don't mind the meet as it stands now, and I will adapt as needed, but all options should be looked at to make the meet the best it can be.

Andy

MartyE posted:

Andy Hummell posted:

 Start on Thursday with the smaller prizes and work up to the biggest prizes on Saturday, and if prizes from Thursday and Friday go unclaimed, tack them on to Saturday's prize to make it even bigger.  And if the prizes are unclaimed on Saturday, they can then be held over until the next meet and the jackpot can grow.

Andy

Well that seems rather underhanded to get people to stay 3 days.  I agree better door prizes could be a nice attraction but I think you would have to do daily drawings with out the "jackpot" clause.  I think the way you suggested would certainly cause ill will among the attendees especially since not everyone even considers going all 3 days. 

Well the idea was to find a way to encourage buyers to "stick around."  When I was just an attendee, I only went for Thursday and Friday, but now after being a table-holder for almost two years, I understand the frustration of the Saturday situation for both dealers and table-holders.  Maybe the "jackpot" concept may not work, but saving the best prizes for last is standard for encouraging people to stay at events.

Andy

I think this is part of the "draw" for a number of member sellers...you know, the ones with the same high priced stuff from meet to meet. I'm not knocking it, however.

Yes, I know people whose primary reason for getting tables at train shows is to get in early to buy. When I get tables, I certainly take advantage of "early buy" opportunities, but I am there to sell too.

Well that seems rather underhanded to get people to stay 3 days.  I agree better door prizes could be a nice attraction but I think you would have to do daily drawings with out the "jackpot" clause.  I think the way you suggested would certainly cause ill will among the attendees especially since not everyone even considers going all 3 days.

I don't see anything wrong with using door prizes to encourage people to stay extra days. I've been to shows where they give door prizes to the table holders at the end of the show to encourage them to stay to the end.  They'd have to be awfully good prizes to get people to incur the cost of staying an extra day. 

 

And on & on we go.

eddie g posted:

And on & on we go.

Worse thing could happen; don't lose your head over it....

Personally, I don't understand all the hub-bub about opening at noon on Thursday.   The ONLY folks I've ever come across who only attend Thursday are those who do so so they can attend the OGR Forum dinner.   I myself have done this several times over the years.   I never minding the noon opening as it gave me ample time to drive to York, or see some sites in Strasburg, or catch a bandit meet, or hang out and talk to folks at breakfast or the fairgrounds prior to opening.    The folks I've spoken to who attend for only a day do so on Friday for the longer hours.  Seems the only folks I find complaining are folks who are already in town prior to Thursday morning for other social events.  Are they just not socially inclined Thursday mornings or just can't wait to look for trains?  (Serious question, not a condescending comment).   I just don't understand it....

Regardless, to me the most important question regarding York is where will all the volunteers be to run this wonderful event in the next 10-15 years? I just turned 51 and almost all the volunteers I see appear to be older than myself.   A better suggestion may be to see if a group of us can volunteer for a few hours during the meet.  Perhaps then we'll all have a better understanding of what is involved to put on a meet such as this.....and then our constructive criticisms may carry more weight or be appropriately amended.   

- Greg

I understand the buying and selling before the show opens at other train shows.  And I don't have a problem with that, it's one of the perks of having a table and being chained to the show from open to close.

I haven't had a table at York since 1999.  But when I did have tables, it was closed box.  You were allowed to take boxes in and set them down on the table, turn 90 degrees to your left or right and immediately walk back out the door.  I asked my wife a question once and was quickly escorted out the door.  Their were monitors every where and boy was it quiet in there.  I have only set up in the red, white and blue halls, so I can't comment on any other halls.

BTW, I have heard about a page 12, but haven't been able to find it yet.  Can someone give me directions?

OK. Now, I am really confused. If you are a Eastern Division TCA Member, what time does the York Show start on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. Also, When does the Public gain entrance to the show. At this point I have no clue if the show starts at 12 Noon on Thursday, and so on. Could someone respond to me. Thank You.

Santa Fe Mike posted:

OK. Now, I am really confused. If you are a Eastern Division TCA Member, what time does the York Show start on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. Also, When does the Public gain entrance to the show. At this point I have no clue if the show starts at 12 Noon on Thursday, and so on. Could someone respond to me. Thank You.

Noon Thursday, 9AM Friday and Saturday.  Public will be allowed in the dealer halls only starting in the Spring (at least for now) on Friday and Saturday.

MARTE, Thank You for your prompt reply. Now, to figure out what to do when it is time for the Spring Meet.

I never understood the Thursdays at noon opening? Add to the strange bathroom tip thing and the playing of the National Anthem. I felt like I was in a Twilight Zone Movie....

People from Michigan just don't understand.

C W Burfle posted:

If you don't think "trading" happens before the show opens, I have a nice bridge for sale.

I attend a good number of 2 rail shows to display for Sunset Models and Golden Gate Depot.  A frequently asked question from folks inquiring about attending shows is " what time does the show start?"  

My answer is always the same - " it starts at 9 and is over at 8."

Tipping at the bathroom just helps support those who keep it clean and fully furnished with supplies.  First time I ran into that was in 1966 in Netherlands, but it was a woman in the men's bathroom.  I will probably blow more on one bad boxcar purchase than the bathroom tips cost me during a year of York meets.

I really like hearing the National Anthem of this country played on Thursday morning.  If for no other reason than to honor those who paid the ultimate price for the freedoms we enjoy, including playing with toy trains.  As well as for those who served and lived to tell about it.  I would prefer to hear it at the opening on all three days as far as I am concerned.  Enjoy it while you can, it may be against the law soon.

Hmmm,   I wonder if we will have any famous athletes on hand to sit down or take a knee during the National Anthem? 

I never understood the Thursdays at noon opening?

I am an Eastern Division member, and live about six hours from the York train show.
The noon start allows me to leave my home at a reasonable hour and get to the show in time to set up for the noon opening.
Is that the official reason? ....... I have no idea, but it works for me.

eddie g posted:

And on & on we go.

Yepper!...

Page twelve on the horizon.

Isn't this just loads of fun?.....and worthwhile?

Yo!.....You there with the popcorn and suds!.....over here!!!!!

And, look, dear!.....They're starting to hurl insults at those of us from Michigan!!

Yeeeeeeee-haw!  

J Daddy posted:

I never understood the Thursdays at noon opening? Add to the strange bathroom tip thing and the playing of the National Anthem. I felt like I was in a Twilight Zone Movie....

 

Actually, the entire thing is a long-term sociology/psychology study.  Fold in your points with the overhead announcements, the arrows, and all the rest along melded in with the cult-like status / behavior of the attendees and you have a something funded from under the basement of a smoke-filled room....  Look for the tattoos on the back of the necks of the attendants and staff members.

eddie g posted:

People from Michigan just don't understand.

Hey Eddie - you may be right- it could be a cultural thing... I was raised getting up at 4 am, delivering the morning Detroit Free Press and hustling to school, with football or softball practice afterwards... I always heard and respect those who have fallen at games, parades, and church... never a train show.

Being raised in a military family and in a Automotive area... early to bed, early to rise was the norm... allot of train shows in our area followed that norm.

So no quarrels here... just felt strange...

And who are those master sergeants that hustle sellers to cover tables at 4:45?

J Daddy posted:

Hey Eddie - you may be right- it could be a cultural thing... I was raised getting up at 4 am, delivering the morning Detroit Free Press and hustling to school, with football or softball practice afterwards... I always heard and respect those who have fallen at games, parades, and church... never a train show.

Being raised in a military family and in a Automotive area... early to bed, early to rise was the norm... allot of train shows in our area followed that norm.

So no quarrels here... just felt strange...

And who are those master sergeants that hustle sellers to cover tables at 4:45?

 

I don't recall for certain whether the National Anthem was played at the open before this or not (I suspect it was though, probably on Friday), but the expansion into other songs on the other days I believe was the first meet after 9-11-01 (such as God Bless America, Lee Greenwood's God Bless the USA, maybe some others I am forgetting).  The tradition has been around ever since.  (though I believe the last meet or 2 they may have switched out Lee Greenwood for another title/artist I was less familiar with) 

As to the "master sergeants", most of the people you are referring to are the Hall Captains.  As much as it may be annoying, it's their responsibility to make sure all members are out by the close time. 

I'm guessing a little here, but maybe the decline in $$ intake for the meet has made this more critical.  I don't know the formal arrangement (not my business), but I have heard comments that the security guards end up getting into overtime mode essentially the minute they have to watch the door past the close time.  Obviously if this happens, the cost is passed to the EDTCA.  Maybe when the meet was so packed you couldn't find a parking spot it was easier to cover this situation with abundant funds if required, but that's been reported as not the case any longer, so maybe that is why it seems more of an issue now than years ago.

-Dave

Trust me about this, everybody chained to a table or doorway is ready to get thehellout as soon as the appointed moment arrives. Zip! Jet! Whoosh! ( Oh, and then sit snarled and suffering in traffic for what seems like an interminable torture-penance.)