Maybe 6 wheel sprung passenger truck sideframes should be made out of stamped sheetmetal or a different metal than zinc?

Wait until their annual 50% off parts sale.  That’ll save you 50%. As for CNC machining, that woyld make them crazy expensive as it would take it if tome to make one truck 

I feel your pain.  The tuscan PRR Red Arrow set from 2013.  Then bought the diner, all 8 trucks, like you said at $32 plus shipping.  A real shame...

Like I said maybe "stamped" sheet metal with embossing and cut-outs. 

$240 in addition to my labor.

It's the d@# sprung trucks!

You don't hear of any problems on the fixed ones. Maybe the solution is to forget about fixing and just replace with (un-sprung). Still $32 a piece but should only need to do once in a lifetime.

Now just gotta figure out how to re-engineer.

Stamped sheet metal wouldn't have the level of detail most people want today. Some cars had them decades ago though. 

When you look at just the side frames..not much detail.

The add-on suspension parts and springs probably qualify as detail. (But they are all flat castings) Even the axl journals are add-on diecast (people complain about losing wheel journals all the time, and superglue them back on.)

If I was younger and a "punch press" operator I look into it more.

I hear you. I have had this problem a few times myself. I would really like to see them made of Delrin or some similar type of tough plastic. They would last forever and would be cheaper to make. All of my N-scale stuff has plastic sideframes and never once have I had an issue with them, even when dropped. When you are looking at $25 bucks for one truck, it gets uneconomical to repair them really fast.

If you put a standard heavyweight car ( I used a C&O) alongside an Alton car, it's difficult to see the difference in the trucks. 

I cant say that I have read any discussion about the superiority of diecast sprung passenger trucks over regular passenger trucks.

Lionel heavyweights are exceptional cars. The detailed spring trucks are a great functioning representative of the real thing. 

These are from 2014, they lasted 4 years. It's not like they failed right away.  I have other cars without the spring functioning detail that are rock solid.. ..no problems.

So...it is a wakeup call for future model manufacturing. Maybe a different medium (stamped metal, brass, even tinplate). Maybe closer monitoring of the casting medium (makeup) and process.

Um - lost wax brass , with bronze bearings, is what you want.  More or less available for 2-rail, and quite easy for Lionel to do.  But they are going to be more expensive!

Diecast is great for auto door handles and convertible top parts.  I think they use diecast aluminum for carburetors, but not sure.  High quality zamac lasts almost as long as brass/bronze, but for small parts on sideframes it is probably too brittle.

Check with PSC - they may have some brass truck kits.  I actually prefer unsprung, so all mine are sand cast bronze.  Well, except for a few which I have had cast in the lost wax process.

You might try Walthers if you do not mind a long-lasting non-Lionel truck. I have some that are well over fifty years old and still in great shape.

Here is what I dread...my blue comet set trucks failing...trying to match that blue would be near impossible!

justakid posted:

Once again I'm out additional money for Lionel 6 wheel diecast sprung heavyweight passenger trucks. I brought out my set of  Lionel scale Alton heavyweights to run behind my Lionel Southern Mikado (green engine and red cars makes a nice Christmas train).  The cars ran well last Christmas and I checked everything before re boxing in January of this year. Put everything in a heated spare bedroom where they sat till today. As soon as I picked up the first car box I heard the dreaded sound of loose parts. Sure enough, the side frames on one truck had fragmented. 2nd car box, same problem, one side truck broken. I feel pretty confident that eventually all the side trucks will ultimately fail. (Last year replaced all the trucks on my Lionel NYC 20th century limited heavyweights, 6-15521. Every side frame was broken. )

So...why can't these side frames be made of stamped steel, or metal? And the parts for supporting the wheels and springs of the same metal? 

Diecast is not a metal known for strength in supporting weight or stress, it is advocated for being used because of its weight (among other uses ).

I would think that with modern CNC equipment side frames could be cut from stronger metal. Details could be stamped or embossed, and suspension parts currently made in diecast could be made in sheet metal.

There is definitely an aftermarket for replacement passenger trucks. Last time I needed parts from Lionel I had to purchase the entire truck , I think it was $30 each. 8 sets.plus $16 shipping.

Somebody out here could make a good living replicating o scale trucks out of stronger metals.

Frustrated 2 cents.

CNC now your talking, sign me up for a hundred pair at $200 per.  Lost Wax would be cheaper.  Diecast is a casting process many different non ferrous metals can be used it does not have to be a zinc alloy. There are several reasons zinc is used, low melting temp, relatively stable and rigid once cooled, cheap. it is a perfectly good material but the lead must be processed out. The Chinese are not held accountable by Lionel there are ways to get the lead out of zinc which is the cause of most zinc rot. Here is our problem,  we can ***** all we want and Lionel is not going to do one **** thing to rectify the problem without someone getting lawyers involved. In such a boutique industry as O gauge trains this could well be the last nail in the old lady's coffin.  Anyone ready to pull that trigger ?  Not me.   The chinese for all intent ran the Koreans out of this market with cheaper prices via less quality control.  Not surprising to me, they also killed my cat.  No kidding they sold Walmart some bad xxxx that went into pet food. Anyone remember this, it made the evening news on several occasions Hundreds if not thousands of dogs and cats nationwide died from this contaminated food.  Not to mention all the technology they stole, or bought on the cheap from our politicians,  who they own.   j 

A new vendor has joined the ranks OGR Forum vendors. (note: I have no financial investment or anything else in this company) They are Diecast Direct.  Would they be an option to make replacement parts?  My opinion: In this day and age it is known what causes this and can thus be avoided.  This zinc pest thing is a QC issue and the vendor selling the affected product should replace the failing part(s).

Steve 

RideTheRails posted:

A new vendor has joined the ranks OGR Forum vendors. (note: I have no financial investment or anything else in this company) They are Diecast Direct.  Would they be an option to make replacement parts?  My opinion: In this day and age it is known what causes this and can thus be avoided.  This zinc pest thing is a QC issue and the vendor selling the affected product should replace the failing part(s).

Steve 

Steve,

That's a great idea, but they are a retailer for diecast automobiles and whatnots like that.

Stamped sheet metal side frames is the answer. Once the dies are made a mfgr could produce thousands cheaply. The Chinese know how to do it ( even with cheap metal), think about all the drawer glides in your kitchen cabinets and furniture, all the hinges....all made in China.

Lionel only warrants their product 2 yrs from date of manufacture.

Sorry about your cat JOHNACTION

Yeah, I lost my 16 yr old Lab

Used to give her dried chicken strips as a treat. Her liver and kidneys failed (in 2 weeks) even the vet said it seemed like she was poisoned  the bad food issue became public 6 months after she passed.

Think about all the metal tools and tool cabinets made in China. They are not made of the best steel, but it's cheap and much  stronger than diecast

 Lionel has used sheet metal for years in the floors of their passenger cars. Maybe that vendor could produce truck sideframes. The framework supporting the coupler and sideframes is also stamped sheetmetal.

Lehigh Valley Railroad posted:

RideTheRails posted:

A new vendor has joined the ranks OGR Forum vendors. (note: I have no financial investment or anything else in this company) They are Diecast Direct.  Would they be an option to make replacement parts?  My opinion: In this day and age it is known what causes this and can thus be avoided.  This zinc pest thing is a QC issue and the vendor selling the affected product should replace the failing part(s).

Steve 

Steve,

That's a great idea, but they are a retailer for diecast automobiles and whatnots like that.

I know that but didn't know if they would do custom stuff.  However, it is probably cost prohibitive. 

Steve

justakid posted:

When you look at just the side frames..not much detail.

The add-on suspension parts and springs probably qualify as detail. (But they are all flat castings) Even the axl journals are add-on diecast (people complain about losing wheel journals all the time, and superglue them back on.)

If I was younger and a "punch press" operator I look into it more.

contact WISEMAN MODEL SERVICES ,Keith could spin cast in pewter, all he would need is a good truck disassembled ,

(the parts that break)  he can make a vulcanized rubber mold , then you just have re-assemble and tap any screw holes yourself.

If you have a bunch going bad better than buying the same thing as a replacement and have it crumble in a few years.

Of course this requires some tinkering skills and money.

PRRMP54 posted:

You might try Walthers if you do not mind a long-lasting non-Lionel truck. I have some that are well over fifty years old and still in great shape.

I agree with this post.

Die cast in and of itself is fine...when made of proper material.

Mark in Oregon

Point is: 

Sprung truck parts are too fragile to be made of contaminated zinc.

You almost never hear of an older design non-sprung truck side frame  failing. No springs, no fragile parts

Non-sprung side frame on top 

Sprung on bottom with wheels

What I hope to do is grind down the studs of the un-sprung sideframe and drill and tap for screws.

This way I'll avoid having to replace the entire truck assembly

Should end up like so

Old side frame in middle btwn assembled sprung truck and a sprung truck side frame

All this has been done. try Precision Scale Models, O Scale Freight catalog pp96 ff.  Part numbers are a bit confusing, but what you are looking at above is already done in lifetime brass, parts 9136/2410 or  9122/2411.  You can also buy them in plastic (yuk).  go here:

https://www.precisionscaleco.c...le-Passenger-WOP.pdf

Thanks  will check them out. May be too costly tho.

Saw they moved in June '18

Will give them a call on Monday

It looks like you could drill out the steel to accept the pin as is, and drill tap through one of the other holes or splay the pin ; rivet style.

The part forming process ,casting or die forging/stamping, in my opinion is not the issue, the issue is the metallurgical properties of the material being formed and quality control of this material, manufacturing process and part inspection.  

John,

You are 100% correct. The problem is the level of impurity (specifically lead) in the melt. Properly made zimac will last forever. Put lead in it, and 5 years can be too long.

Chris

LVHR

The answer of long lasting trucks is to cast them from aluminum. The current zinc (pot metal) trucks can last if the impurity level is kept down but in China nearly all the metal they use for casting is recycled and contains impurities. Recycled aluminum will last, PURE Zamac will too but China doesn't ship that. China is called upon by American companies looking to make the highest profits to produce the cheapest products possible. They want cheap they certainly get it and now you have it.   BUY AMERICAN!

I have postwar Madisons  and modern era O27 Streamliners with plastic sides. People might complain about the material, but they have held up over the decades. There are also sturdier types of plastic made today that would inject into those molds just as easily (or easier) than zamac. 

Just my $.02

John Ochab posted:

The part forming process ,casting or die forging/stamping, in my opinion is not the issue, the issue is the metallurgical properties of the material being formed and quality control of this material, manufacturing process and part inspection.  

This.

Lionel die cast trucks are some of the best looking ones out there and that includes 3rd Rail. 

If I were looking for replacements though the least expensive solution is to buy older cars with no known issues and use their trucks.  You can find them in sets for between 30 and 50 bucks a car. For that you get two trucks with couplers and pickup rollers. You won't be able to make a set of trucks for anywhere close to that. Both Lionel and MTH cars from the '90s with sillohuettes have been trouble free and can be had for small money.

Pete 

What did Walthers use in its old O scale kits?  I just bought a couple of pairs of Walthers trucks, and have a number of old Walthers passenger and gas electric kits just full of heavy metal castings that feel like lead, but have not succumbed to zincpest like a Mantua HO ten wheeler kit did years ago.  These trucks are in far better condition, than three pairs of recent production trucks l found crumbled in their boxes.  This kind of "quality" is not furthering the hobby.  This is like getting your driveway "resurfaced" with used motor oil by some transient door-knocker.  Too bad Walthers got out of O.

Lots of available options for trucks are out there:

Wiseman (Ace and others)

Precision Scale

Yoder

American  Scale (Bill Davis)

and more than you'll ever need are almost always available at shows/meets/eBay, etc.

Here is a pilot from a Williams engine from the 90’s. I put a bandaid on it to hold the screw till Bachman got them in stock (2 years).

Someone else posted that they got a pair of archbar trucks at York.  Dunno what shows, as l was also at Strasburg....and Indy O scale. Thanks for the list...if l don't see it displayed, l'm a lousy guesser as to who might have it.

I know anytime we make a modification to an original item we impact collector/resale value.      Many changes are upgrades. Lots of great suggestions to resolve better grade replacements, with a degree of individual modeler skill necessary. (Skills many 2 rail folks have been had to learn).

Does anyone have suggestions for O.E.M. replacements in material other than diecast? Some folks here would like to keep their cars as original as possible. Do a little tinkering , paint, but more or less not have to be concerned with adding couplers or fabricating spacers for truck height. If possible not to detract from collector/resale value.

As an example:  these trucks with sideframes and suspension parts cast in jeweler's silver using the original bushings, metal frame and body mount w/diecast operating coupler, should ENHANSE the value, or at least alleviate any anxiety that they will be found years later to have disentigrated.

Yeah,  Recast them without the lead.  I have trains with die cast parts that are nearly 100 years old that have no rot at all. I see in an earlier post on this discussion someone has a Williams Trainmaster pilot that is covered in cracks. I have a ton of Williams from the 70s and 80s and not one piece is suffering from zinc rot. I am convinced that the problem was quite small till china took over toy train manufacturing.  I do not see die cast cookware suffering from rot I think that is due to Aluminum being the most common metal used for cookware. I would not be opposed to things like truck side frames being made from aluminum or zinc /aluminum alloy. Both of which are far more stable than having trace amounts of lead in zinc.  Something I do at the first sign of cracks forming in a die cast part is to fill the crack with super thin CA (superglue) to seal as much air out as possible this seems to slow the process by quite a bit. CA has a property known as Hygroscopic meaning it seeks out water this is actually part of the curing process.  if you huff your breath on the mating surface where you intend to use CA it will speed the cure. I can't prove this but I believe the CA binds with the water deep in the crack and without water and air the decomposition slows or even comes to a halt.  Found this site with a search for Die cast. It has some interesting info.   j

http://www.diecastingdesign.org/alloy-selection

Be careful and examine the replacement parts diligently.

I had a supposedly new replacement truck for a Ps4 tender straight from Lionel parts that started crumbling in the shipping box, micro cracking upon examination with a magnifier and loup.  Lionel made the replacement good after photographic evidence, but not the original.  They are well aware of Zincpest.