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Hi folks Tinman here. Much discussion has focused around potential damage caused to modern train electronics caused by slow reacting circuit breakers in the zw and other transformers? and why?

The answer is yes a short circuit in the output of these transformers can cause damage to solid state circuits built in to modern engines. Why? because in a short circuit it is possible to create a voltage spike much higher than the normal output of the transformers.  This spike can be higher than the circuits in the engines were designed to handle. This is because especially with surface mount devices used in dc circuits, need very little current to operate and the design of their circuits was built only to supply the operational needs of the circuit. For example the converter in the circuit may only deliver milli amps of dc voltage at a typical output of 5 or so volts. When a short circuit happens the current and voltage whacks the devices with more than they were designed to handle.

Ok so we change the circuit breakers built into the transformers which open much faster than the original ones installed by Lionel, which we at tinman have been doing for years. Is this a final solution to the problem? Unfortunately not in all cases. The circuit breakers in the transformers were installed from the factories were installed with one purpose only and that is to protect the transformer, not the individual outputs.  Sooo now what? I understand Lionel has recently improved their design in their latest transformers that work much faster. Terrific but what about the majority of hobbyists who have older transformers and cannot afford the price tags of a new one? 

Recently on a whim we manufactured a new product to fix the issue which is illistrated below . This is basically  a box with 2 built in with low amperage circuit breakers that will allow up to a 7 amp draw with no interruptions, but a short circuit will cause the circuit internal circuit breaker to open instantly. They have been tested with a variety of voltage and load settings.

                                                                                                               

The hook up basically is between the transformer and the center rails. There are 2 circuit breakers in each. The one pictured is our newest model which has manually resettable breakers on the sides. The red LED's light  to indicate which line has the short circuit.  We had these custom made for us from a very large Japanese company who specializes in circuit breakers. They work even better than our original ones. The change from auto reset to manual reset came from recommendations from customers. and is great because it allows enough time to find the problem, and correct the problem before resetting the breaker. Even if you don't have modern engines, when the grandchildren are operating the trains, and have a derailment, they will know to find grampa and tell him the train stopped  without having to worry about the breakers resetting themselves. The kits sell for $15 as an accessory to our transformers, or $29 by themselves. They are available on our site (tinman3rail.com) at a reduced price or on eBay.  Questions, comments and or suggestions are more than welcome.

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This partial passage from their website insinuates that the product was designed by or with the assistance of GRJ and named after him.

"Soooo, along with some great advice from some experts we have our new external “Gunrunner’ circuit breaker kit. Gunrunner you may recognize from some of the train forums. I consider his knowledge in this field to be extremely reliable.

This kit is designed to go between the transformer and the center rail connection for 2 different train loops and will open the built in manual reset breakers almost instantly in case of a short circuit or derailment.

  Here is how it is hooked up. The 2 red binding posts are for one train loop, the two black posts are for another train loop. Does not matter which of the red’s or black’s go to the transformer or track.

For discussion purposes here is an example of where to hook up to the transformer for example 2 trains

To the transformer power output to the trains.

For train no 1 hook up a wire from here to the center rail power, for  train no 2  to  center rail power



For train loop no 1 wire the center rail to here For train loop no 2 wire the center rail to here

Notice the 2 red buttons on the sides of the kit? These are the manual reset of the circuit breakers. Why manual?  So you have time to discover what the problem is before resetting the breakers. Ooops almost forgot what are the large red led’s for? In case the circuit breaker does open the LED for that breaker lights up and stays on till you reset the breaker

New info…..These breakers not only protect the rolling stock but also your transformer itself. We have discovered many transformers which we intended to recondition, were damaged to the point where we had to scrap them. Why due to overheating caused by too slow of reacting of the factory installed circuit  breakers. Why does this happen? Because the factory installed breakers up to 5 times more powerful than those which are in the Gunrunner kit, which are somewhat necessary because they theoretically have to be strong enough to run multiple trains and accessories at the same time."

Not sure if that's accurate, but I hope he's at least getting a royalty on these !

@Richie C. posted:

This partial passage from their website insinuates that the product was designed by or with the assistance of GRJ and named after him.

"Soooo, along with some great advice from some experts we have our new external “Gunrunner’ circuit breaker kit. Gunrunner you may recognize from some of the train forums. I consider his knowledge in this field to be extremely reliable.

This kit is designed to go between the transformer and the center rail connection for 2 different train loops and will open the built in manual reset breakers almost instantly in case of a short circuit or derailment.

  Here is how it is hooked up. The 2 red binding posts are for one train loop, the two black posts are for another train loop. Does not matter which of the red’s or black’s go to the transformer or track.

For discussion purposes here is an example of where to hook up to the transformer for example 2 trains

To the transformer power output to the trains.

For train no 1 hook up a wire from here to the center rail power, for  train no 2  to  center rail power



For train loop no 1 wire the center rail to here For train loop no 2 wire the center rail to here

Notice the 2 red buttons on the sides of the kit? These are the manual reset of the circuit breakers. Why manual?  So you have time to discover what the problem is before resetting the breakers. Ooops almost forgot what are the large red led’s for? In case the circuit breaker does open the LED for that breaker lights up and stays on till you reset the breaker

New info…..These breakers not only protect the rolling stock but also your transformer itself. We have discovered many transformers which we intended to recondition, were damaged to the point where we had to scrap them. Why due to overheating caused by too slow of reacting of the factory installed circuit  breakers. Why does this happen? Because the factory installed breakers up to 5 times more powerful than those which are in the Gunrunner kit, which are somewhat necessary because they theoretically have to be strong enough to run multiple trains and accessories at the same time."

Not sure if that's accurate, but I hope he's at least getting a royalty on these !

tagging the man... @gunrunnerjohn - so that he can chime in if he wishes.

Just got off the phone with TinMan (Rich). These are 5A thermal breakers with a manual reset, primarily designed to protect the transformers.

Answers to my other emailed questions:
- the banana jacks are the 4mm variety (same size as the MTH TIU jacks)
- each box has two breakers (i.e. two separate circuits). I was looking for that answer just to eliminate any confusion about the black banana jacks.

In other news, FYSA: the accessory power center they offer has a 3A thermal breaker.

@SteveH posted:

@gunrunnerjohn  are you at liberty to elaborate on any details about these breakers?

Ie. are they operated electronically, magnetically, other?  Trip curve?

They're standard thermal breakers, just sized better for protection.  No, they aren't magnetic, and that is obviously the ideal choice for maximum protection, at least IMO.  I'm sure that Rich can supply the trip curves, I don't have them handy.

@texgeekboy posted:

@SteveH,

Do you think these circuit breakers are comparable to the ones from your post here?  I've bought several of those, and they work fine.

These breakers sold by the OP seem to be targeted to hobbyists who want a no fuss, no math, off the shelf circuit breaker solution that is somewhat plug and play.  The Sensata Airpax Instant Breakers you're asking about, require a bit more work to implement than plugging in banana plugs, but they can also be selected for optimal results depending upon the desired application(s).

I have yet to find any thermal breakers which can react as quickly as electronic or magnetic breakers.  However, until trip curves for the breakers discussed in this thread are published, further comparison would only be speculation.    Are these fast enough to protect sensitive train electronics?  I wouldn't say without sufficient empirical data.

I do believe they would likely offer better protection for more powerful postwar transformers (like the ZW and others) than their factory stock breakers.

They're standard thermal breakers, just sized better for protection.  No, they aren't magnetic, and that is obviously the ideal choice for maximum protection, at least IMO.  I'm sure that Rich can supply the trip curves, I don't have them handy.

John, Thanks for clarifying.

One more question about these protection devices from TinMan.  Do they include TVS diodes?

Specs from Aliexpress on these familiar looking MR1 7A thermal breakers:

https://www.aliexpress.us/item...aPcglo2usa4itemAdapt

MR1-7A_Trip-Curve

Hmm...

@texgeekboy posted:

@SteveH,

Do you think these circuit breakers are comparable to the ones from your post here?  I've bought several of those, and they work fine.

If these are the same as the ones used in the product being discussed in this thread, IMO, there is a big difference in the response times when current exceeds the rated overload value by small margins.

For comparison, here is the trip "Curve" of the Airpax Instant Breakers:

Instant Delay Air Pax

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Last edited by SteveH

The trick with thermal breakers is to under-size them a bit so that a real short circuit ends up on the fast trip part of the response curve.  The 7A breaker is a good example on a track feed where you'd typically have at least 10A capacity, and most transformers can deliver twice that with a direct short.  I have a 6A thermal breaker on my bench setup with a 130W MRC Pure Power transformer.  A direct short across the output gives me 17 amps and the breaker trips in less than 2 seconds.  That's not magnetic breaker speeds, but not bad for a direct short.

However, for my bench, I also have a switch to switch in a 2A thermal breaker for better protection, a direct short trips that one instantly in a fraction of a second.  I use that when I'm testing unknown boards so I don't cook anything.

The trick with thermal breakers is to under-size them a bit so that a real short circuit ends up on the fast trip part of the response curve.  The 7A breaker is a good example on a track feed where you'd typically have at least 10A capacity, and most transformers can deliver twice that with a direct short.  I have a 6A thermal breaker on my bench setup with a 130W MRC Pure Power transformer.  A direct short across the output gives me 17 amps and the breaker trips in less than 2 seconds.  That's not magnetic breaker speeds, but not bad for a direct short.

However, for my bench, I also have a switch to switch in a 2A thermal breaker for better protection, a direct short trips that one instantly in a fraction of a second.  I use that when I'm testing unknown boards so I don't cook anything.

If you have TVS diodes on the track power, do you need ultra fast breakers also?  or is a few seconds good enough?

The trick with thermal breakers is to ...

I have a few B-curve breakers leftover from control panel work I used to do. I have a few 5amps and 8amps spares and I put the 8A B-curve breakers across my ZW outputs. They aren't the same unit in the link below, but nearly identical. My question is: Wouldn't this be easier?

8-amp B-curve thermal magnetic breaker

@woodsyT posted:

I have a few B-curve breakers leftover from control panel work I used to do. I have a few 5amps and 8amps spares and I put the 8A B-curve breakers across my ZW outputs. They aren't the same unit in the link below, but nearly identical. My question is: Wouldn't this be easier?

8-amp B-curve thermal magnetic breaker

Easier for who?  I hope you put them in series with the outputs and not across them.

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