1) They drilled a deep well.

2) The Santa Fe ran trains of tank cars filled with water, for those locations without a well. I was told by some of the "old timers" on the Santa Fe that one out of every ten trains was a train of water tank cars. Thus, the main reason that the Santa Fe was the very first railroad to purchase EMC/EMD FT diesel sets, in 1941.

@Mannyrock posted:

Seems like it would be a monumental task to have entire trains of water hauled along the route, stopping and filling up these tall water towers with two man hand lever pumps.

I'm sure they didn't use hand-powered pumps to fill the tanks!

Railroad Water Tanks

They employed windmills to lift the water from the deep wells. Many, if not all, were manufactured in Batavia, IL, which at one time had 6 factories making them.  These were also employed widely on farms.  Do a search for windmill city to find photos of preserved windmills in Batavia. They are quite neat !

Think they also used gasoline and electric pumps, in the 20th century.

John,

The reason I asked about using hand pumps to fill the tanks out west is because my understanding is that railroads reached the deserts around 1870 to 1875, and I wasn't sure whether or not they were using steam powered pumps that early. 

If the only way to get water out there was to haul it in water cars, I wasn't sure how they got it up from the top of the cars into the tower.   

Maybe they had windmill powered pumps?

(I'm constantly curious about historical details like this, which drives my wife crazy.)

Thanks,

Mannyrock 

I always thought the railroads relied on rain water due to watching Petticoat Junction.

Hotwater and Mark, thanks for that information.  But could they actually drill hundred foot wells in that post-Civil War era?

(When I was at Duke, they offered a course called the History of Technology.  My room-mate took the course, and wrote his research paper on Fire Hydrants.  Had I taken the course, I would have probably written it on this subject.  :-)  )

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

Hotwater and Mark, thanks for that information.  But could they actually drill hundred foot wells in that post-Civil War era?

(When I was at Duke, they offered a course called the History of Technology.  My room-mate took the course, and wrote his research paper on Fire Hydrants.  Had I taken the course, I would have probably written it on this subject.  :-)  )

Mannyrock

They were drilling oil wells in 1866.  I imagine the same technology would be used.

Rusty

@phrankenstign posted:

I always thought the railroads relied on rain water due to watching Petticoat Junction.

You'd need regular storms of biblical proportions to keep a railroad water tank filled with rainwater.  The Jamestown tank used in Petticoat Junction was filled by pumping water from either a well or stream.  It originally had a roof.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

They were drilling oil wells in 1866.  I imagine the same technology would be used.

Rusty

You'd need regular storms of biblical proportions to keep a railroad water tank filled with rainwater.  The Jamestown tank used in Petticoat Junction was filled by pumping water from either a well or stream.  It originally had a roof.

Rusty

I've always been a city guy.  I never really thought about stuff like that.  I guess I grew up with a skewed sense of country life watching The Beverly Hillbillies, Petticoat Junction, and Green Acres!

I had asked a similar question sometime back to which Hot Water had also answered. Some places used lakes or other bodies of water that were of higher elevation than where the water was going to go to. Gravity played a part for those.

I saw a documentary a good number of years ago about Roman water works and how they engineered quite a bit of things via water. Water traveling downhill going into smaller pipes increases the water pressure. This technology is old and has been used quite a lot throughout the world. I often think about the one palace in France that one of the kings built using water to entertain himself and his guests.

Here's an interesting read on "Railroad Water Tanks".

https://truewestmagazine.com/railroad-water-tanks/

@wild mary posted:

Here's an interesting read on "Railroad Water Tanks".

https://truewestmagazine.com/railroad-water-tanks/

It was so interesting that I posted it a couple hours ago.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It was so interesting that I posted it a couple hours ago.

Sorry John, can't believe I missed your post.

Using a wind mill to fill the tank.  Looks like a great scratch build opportunity.

What palace in France?  I have climbed around and walked across the Pont du Gard (Roman aqueduct) in southern France, but saw its destination only on Rick Steves, where that description above to raise water pressure was applied.  My hometown water tower, sheathed in ice in winter, was about a half mile from the station close to creek, and apparently served by some kind of pump, although l remember no pumphouse.  Hot Water's reason for diesils may have applied to early adoption of same by Rio Grande, when photos of its ice encrusted water tanks are considered.    Early steam autos, equipped with hose, siphon, and filter must have had challenge west of the Miss.  But condensored Doble steam car was developed in arid Calif.  My fictionalized  desert mining town of Arsenic Springs, discovered fatally by conquistadores, now on shelves,  has two tanks, one piped from mtn. spring , locos' served by namesake.    But l wondered about boiler crusting, from that and other mineral springs, and if that was a realistic scenario.   What about  condensors, used on cars, but locos?

Locomotives had two sources of energy available: steam and compressed air.  Maybe they used one or the other to drive a nearby pump that was capable of emptying a tank car?

Fun facts: The LIRR used locomotive air to drive the turntable at Greenport.  Many years ago, I watched a NY Central MOW crew using a jack-hammer powered off the locomotive brake-line gladhand.

The scaling of the boiler must have been horrible in areas of hard water.  Cleaning such s boiler must have been Hades

If there is a rapidly flowing stream, there is a device that uses the water flowing past it to divert a small percentage of that water under pressure uphill.

That is a terrible explanation and I wish I could remember the name of the device. It has no moving parts, only a few different orifices. It is submerged in the stream bed and pumps water up hill for a small distance.

Am I thinking of a hydraulic ram?

@RoyBoy posted:

If there is a rapidly flowing stream, there is a device that uses the water flowing past it to divert a small percentage of that water under pressure uphill.

Pretty tough to accomplish that in the desert southwest when there is no "flowing stream", nor any other type of water on the surface.

That is a terrible explanation and I wish I could remember the name of the device. It has no moving parts, only a few different orifices. It is submerged in the stream bed and pumps water up hill for a small distance.

Certainly NOT into a 10,000 gallon, or more,  water tank that is about 20 feet above the desert floor. If there is no water at all, either above the surface or well below the surface, then the railroad brought the water in by tank cars. All the Roman technology would NOT have moved that water from the tank cars up into the water tank, without steam driven pumps from steam supplied by the steam locomotive.

@RoyBoy posted:

If there is a rapidly flowing stream, there is a device that uses the water flowing past it to divert a small percentage of that water under pressure uphill.

That is a terrible explanation and I wish I could remember the name of the device. It has no moving parts, only a few different orifices. It is submerged in the stream bed and pumps water up hill for a small distance.

Am I thinking of a hydraulic ram?

That is exactly what it is called. Many farms used it to get water to barns from streams in the "back forty". Here is a description.

@colorado hirailer posted:

What palace in France?  I have climbed around and walked across the Pont du Gard (Roman aqueduct) in southern France, but saw its destination only on Rick Steves, where that description above to raise water pressure was applied.  My hometown water tower, sheathed in ice in winter, was about a half mile from the station close to creek, and apparently served by some kind of pump, although l remember no pumphouse.  Hot Water's reason for diesils may have applied to early adoption of same by Rio Grande, when photos of its ice encrusted water tanks are considered.    Early steam autos, equipped with hose, siphon, and filter must have had challenge west of the Miss.  But condensored Doble steam car was developed in arid Calif.  My fictionalized  desert mining town of Arsenic Springs, discovered fatally by conquistadores, now on shelves,  has two tanks, one piped from mtn. spring , locos' served by namesake.    But l wondered about boiler crusting, from that and other mineral springs, and if that was a realistic scenario.   What about  condensors, used on cars, but locos?

Ah, I had the wrong country(its been a while since I seen anything on this). It is Hellbrunn Palace in Austria, built from 1613-1619.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I had asked a similar question sometime back to which Hot Water had also answered. Some places used lakes or other bodies of water that were of higher elevation than where the water was going to go to. Gravity played a part for those.

I saw a documentary a good number of years ago about Roman water works and how they engineered quite a bit of things via water. Water traveling downhill going into smaller pipes increases the water pressure. This technology is old and has been used quite a lot throughout the world. I often think about the one palace in France that one of the kings built using water to entertain himself and his guests.

@colorado hirailer posted:

What palace in France?  I have climbed around and walked across the Pont du Gard (Roman aqueduct) in southern France, but saw its destination only on Rick Steves, where that description above to raise water pressure was applied.  My hometown water tower, sheathed in ice in winter, was about a half mile from the station close to creek, and apparently served by some kind of pump, although l remember no pumphouse.  Hot Water's reason for diesils may have applied to early adoption of same by Rio Grande, when photos of its ice encrusted water tanks are considered.    Early steam autos, equipped with hose, siphon, and filter must have had challenge west of the Miss.  But condensored Doble steam car was developed in arid Calif.  My fictionalized  desert mining town of Arsenic Springs, discovered fatally by conquistadores, now on shelves,  has two tanks, one piped from mtn. spring , locos' served by namesake.    But l wondered about boiler crusting, from that and other mineral springs, and if that was a realistic scenario.   What about  condensors, used on cars, but locos?

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Ah, I had the wrong country(its been a while since I seen anything on this). It is Hellbrunn Palace in Austria, built from 1613-1619.

Actually, there was one built in France, so it maybe the one you're thinking of.  My wife and I watched a movie recently called "A Little Chaos" from 2014 with Kate Winslet.  It was a historical adaptation of the construction of the Bosquet de la Salle-de-Bal at Gardens of Versailles, commissioned by Louis XIV in the 1680s.  After the movie, as is my mentality , I looked it up on the internet and went into a rabbit hole.  Interestingly technology for the time.

@Amfleet25124 posted:

Actually, there was one built in France, so it maybe the one you're thinking of.  My wife and I watched a movie recently called "A Little Chaos" from 2014 with Kate Winslet.  It was a historical adaptation of the construction of the Bosquet de la Salle-de-Bal at Gardens of Versailles, commissioned by Louis XIV in the 1680s.  After the movie, as is my mentality , I looked it up on the internet and went into a rabbit hole.  Interestingly technology for the time.

No, not what I was thinking of. Hellbrunn Palace is what I was thinking of. Different water features altogether, though similar technology I am sure.

Wild Mary has shown a windmill tank of which l had seen a similar version, and forgotten.  That pumphouse and mill could be used with any water tower. Scratch building one looks like a future project here and for a kit builder.                                             But, what about used-steam condensers  on locomotives?  Steam cars used them to extend range, recovering water and returning it to a reservoir.  Not practical for locos?....why?                   

These publications include information about Railroad water towers.

Railroad structures and estimates 1909

by Orrock, John Wilson, 1870-

https://truewestmagazine.com/railroad-water-tanks/

In the dry southwest, many rivers and streams appear to be dry washes.  However, often, there is water flowing underground.  When available, these sources were tapped and steam pumps were used to raise the water.  And, as Hot Water pointed out, Santa Fe hauled a lot of water to dry locations in the desert.  They were still doing it when I was Road Foreman of Engines on the Needles District between 1984 and 1993.  The source was locations such as Newberry, which had a large underground flow.

Santa Fe had silver tank cars on work trains stenciled "potable water".

Was there any consideration by Santa Fe or other roads in bad/no water areas to use auxiliary tenders?

I have two K Line die cast O/O-27 Santa Fe 8,000 gal. tank cars - one black and one silver.  Each car has "Domestic Water" in block letters on both sides of the car.  Below that is "steam cleaned CY 9-81".  

I use both tank cars as a water source to accompany the troop kitchen car, gondola fuel (coal, wood) car, and food supply box cars that are part of the consist making up WWII troop/armored vehicle trains traveling in the Western U.S.

After reviewing the topic threads, I now wonder if the real purpose of the tank cars was for carrying water to the remote water towers.  

@Dominic Mazoch posted:

Santa Fe had silver tank cars on work trains stenciled "potable water".

Was there any consideration by Santa Fe or other roads in bad/no water areas to use auxiliary tenders?

Not that I know of.  If they could get one good tank full of water at each water stop, I guess that was good enough.  They had underground cisterns at some locations, where the water could collect and then be pumped into the storage tank.  At other locations, they drilled down to where there was natural storage.  There are Santa Fe train orders advising crews that there was no water at a certain station on a certain day, when the pump had failed or the aquifer had low flow.

Santa Fe, SP, and UPRR all used water treatment chemicals because of the hardness of the water they could get in the desert.  UPRR used Nalco balls, pre-measured treatment per ball, and the Fireman threw in the required number of balls, based on the location, and on the amount of water taken.  Santa Fe used a powder that had to be measured into a bucket, then mixed with water and dumped into the tank.  I don't know what Espee used.  Treatment was done by the Fireman after he took water, not in the storage tank.

And, yes, the "potable water" tank cars were used to deliver water to cisterns at towns without a water supply.  Santa Fe sold them water.

At Seligman, Arizona, Santa Fe was the city water supply.  Santa Fe's wells at Audley provided good water which was pumped to Seligman and distributed through a standard city water system.  One of the doors on the depot had a sign reading, "Pay Water Bills Here."

What a fantastic topic.  Thanks Mannyrock for starting it and thanks to all the contributors.  I continue to be amazed by the wealth of knowledge on this forum.

Rick A,

Thanks for posting that great pamphlet.  It states that in 1909 at least, steam powered pumps were in wide use.  Since steam power was harnessed by decades before to power the locomotives, it would seem that perhaps this would have been a common power source for the pumps by at least 1860 or so.

Mannyrock

Based on photos I've seen, the Soo Line continued to use windmills for their water tanks into the 1920's.

Great topic, and a question that never occurred to me before. An excellent read. ☺

I for one am not a stickler for realism, but I guess that for folks that are, it would seem that perhaps now you can't put an old wooden water tower on your layout without adding a windmill, a steam powered pump, or other visible device for pumping water up into it.   :-O

Mannyrock

Here in the midwest, often the gravel layer holding the water was no deeper than 30 feet sometimes less. A pointed pipe was driven into the pit at the surface and a lift pump was installed with check valves.  The lift rod is attached to the windmill. The outlet went into a ground level stock tank. Anything over 40 feet had to have a force pump attached to the windmill. This arrangement would force the water overhead and into overhead tanks. Slow but sure.
     UP had in later years erected huge water treatment tanks next to the storage tanks across Neb. I once saw some photos of them but now cannot relocate the nice magazine article.

@Mannyrock posted:

I for one am not a stickler for realism, but I guess that for folks that are, it would seem that perhaps now you can't put an old wooden water tower on your layout without adding a windmill, a steam powered pump, or other visible device for pumping water up into it.   :-O

Mannyrock

No. If you are modeling in the mid 1940s thru the early 1950s, as I was, I had a very large wooden water tank with a pump-house that was electrically powered. In other words, the windmill was gone by the early 1920s!

Err,    Hot Water, . . .  the subject is 19th Century Water Towers,  not 20the Century.  :-)

@Mannyrock posted:

Err,    Hot Water, . . .  the subject is 19th Century Water Towers,  not 20the Century.  :-)

Are you saying that there was no electrically driven pumps in the late 1800s?

Hmm, considering that the first "dynamo" was invented in 1831 by Michale Faraday(yeah, I looked it up). In the Netherlands, there is a museum called Museum De Cruquius. It was used to pump the water out of the way that threatened nearby cities because of flooding(too much rain, that sort of thing), which before the steam engines, they used windmills beforehand(as well as muscles way before that). The steam engine that is housed there was I guess installed in 1849(the site says from 1849).

I do recall reading somewhere back before joining the forum that one of the original steam locomotives ordered from Britain by the US didn't exactly work out(not sure if that was the Stourbridge Lion, but that was too heavy for the tracks and didn't get to do train service) and was relegated to pump/power duty.

All that said, some kind of pump is used like what Hot Water said. I would really hate to think of a person trying to hand crank a tank car full of water up a tower in some medieval fashion like an Archimedean Screw.