3rd Rail Announces Scale E60's!

Yesterday I received the email announcing this model. About 40 years ago Williams came out with this model. The body shell I believe was a little shorter then scale and the pantograph was very cheap in appearance. I too was hoping that someone would come this model before they were history with Amtrak. Now they are all history but I would still like to get one. I will contact my Sunset Model / 3rd Rail dealer today and order one in the phase 3  956-975 number series with the 3 colors of equal size red, white and blue stripes and the number boards under the windshields. I live along the Northeast Corridor in Westchester County, NY and use to see them pass by my home along with the GG1s and then replaced by the AEM7s, later along with the HHP8s and now replaced by the ACS64s.

Ed New Haven Line

I'm excited.  I know I will likely order 3 - Phase II E60CP to pull all my single level Amtrak Phase I cars, the Phase III E60MA - three equal stripes with the number boards moved up and numbered in the 600 series to pull Amfleet cars in that phase paint, and definitely a New Jersey Transit one.  Trying to decide if I can swing another one in the 957-975 series as you described. 

I'm also wondering if it is time to convert all my NJT to the 2 rail side of the equation.  Not too much there.  An F40PH, custom U34CH, and 7 comet II cars.  So many questions!

I have probably half a dozen Willams models and they are short by about 4" at least.

Are they going to list wich ones will have high or low # boards? I know there's still time, but I'd like high #boards

@tom21pa posted:

Are they going to list wich ones will have high or low # boards? I know there's still time, but I'd like high #boards

Yes.  Some photos will need to be added to the web site.  The E60MAs renumbered into the 600 series are the ones with  the high number boards. 

The E60CPs were from 950-956 and had a boiler to provide steam heat to older cars.  E60CHs are nearly identical having HEP sets to provide electric heat and air conditioning to the Amfleet cars and were numbered from 957-975. 

In 1982 several E60CHs went to New Jersey Transit to replace the GG1s until their order for ALP44s arrived.  The NJT units retained their Amtrak numbers. 

The remaining units were all rebuilt into the MA configuration and were numbered 600-610 and 620-621.  620 & 621 operated mainly in MOW work or as an occasional helper.  I don't believe they had HEP sets.

However to your point.   Yes photos help!

@GG1 4877 posted:

Yes.  Some photos will need to be added to the web site.  The E60MAs renumbered into the 600 series are the ones with  the high number boards. 

The E60CPs were from 950-956 and had a boiler to provide steam heat to older cars.  E60CHs are nearly identical having HEP sets to provide electric heat and air conditioning to the Amfleet cars and were numbered from 957-975. 

In 1982 several E60CHs went to New Jersey Transit to replace the GG1s until their order for ALP44s arrived.  The NJT units retained their Amtrak numbers. 

The remaining units were all rebuilt into the MA configuration and were numbered 600-610 and 620-621.  620 & 621 operated mainly in MOW work or as an occasional helper.  I don't believe they had HEP sets.

However to your point.   Yes photos help!

Thank you, i will change my order to an e60ma.

@GG1 4877 posted:

I'm excited.  I know I will likely order 3 - Phase II E60CP to pull all my single level Amtrak Phase I cars, the Phase III E60MA - three equal stripes with the number boards moved up and numbered in the 600 series to pull Amfleet cars in that phase paint, and definitely a New Jersey Transit one.  Trying to decide if I can swing another one in the 957-975 series as you described. 

I'm also wondering if it is time to convert all my NJT to the 2 rail side of the equation.  Not too much there.  An F40PH, custom U34CH, and 7 comet II cars.  So many questions!

I have probably half a dozen Willams models and they are short by about 4" at least.

Jonathan

Did I miss something  The 3rd rail site does not mention a NJT E60   All are Amtrak  That is in either the announcement or the reservation

The NJT is on the reservation form.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

The NJT is on the reservation form.

Rusty

Thanks Rusty  I guess I should read the whole description   I saw Amtrak at the beginning   Duuuuhhh

@Pantenary posted:

Wow, this is excellent news indeed.  Put me down a for a couple.  However, I do have a question.  How much flexibility would there be with paint/number variations?  There were some oddballs on the Amtrak E60 roster, and some are more suited to certain eras than others.  For example...

An E60CH with an AEM7-like Phase III paint, but with a 900-series number and a Brecknell-Willis high-speed pantograph instead of the usual single-stage Faiveleys like the the E44s and other E60s, (photo date 7/18/84).  Phase IIIs in the 900-series were pretty rare, and this one is one-of-a-kind with the AEM7 style Phase III:

There was also a brief time where E60s were numbered in the 500-series.  Obviously it was short-lived, but it would be pretty nifty to model for the time frame they were around, (photo date 12/16/87):

There are some other variations of E60 number/paint combinations.  Is it possible to accommodate any of those variations?  I do not mean to muddy the waters, but I am curious.  Thanks.

Hi Nate,

At this point, the project is still developing, but I can say that the variations will be likely limited to the common versions due to the number of units being run.  For example E60CH 975 in Phase III Paint will still have a Faiveley pantograph as I don't personally anticipate enough units for an alternate.  Still doing some research on what other E60CH road numbers received Phase III paint. 

As to the numbering on the E60MA's it isn't an issue to have one available in the 500 series.  It is simply a decal and in your order, place a note as to what your desired road numbers are.  3rd always tries accommodate number requests when they are made. 

Depending on how the orders are distributed there will be 2-4 road numbers for each when it is prototypically correct. 

Hope that helps!

Just put my order in. I can't wait to see the finished product. Bravo! 

#950 was renumbered to 510 and then again to 620. 
I have a book here that denotes:

600 was 974

601 was 956

602 was 975

603 was 964

605 was 965

606 was 970

607 was 969

608 was 952

609 was 951-2 (originally 957, renumbered the first time to keep steam heat units in a block)

610 was 953

620 and 621 were assigned to work train duty. 

so your MAs are 600-610. 600-607 were E60CH and 608-610, 620, 621 were E60CP. Interesting that all 5 steam heat units survived until the end. 608-610 were the last 3 off the rails, July 04. I saw a video on YouTube today with an E60 pulling a train of Phase IVb amfleets. 

In the couple of books I have here, there’s no photos of CPs and CHs in anything but Phase II

@Boilermaker1 posted:

#950 was renumbered to 510 and then again to 620. 
I have a book here that denotes:

600 was 974

601 was 956

602 was 975

603 was 964

605 was 965

606 was 970

607 was 969

608 was 952

609 was 951-2 (originally 957, renumbered the first time to keep steam heat units in a block)

610 was 953

 

620 and 621 were assigned to work train duty. 

so your MAs are 600-610. 600-607 were E60CH and 608-610, 620, 621 were E60CP. Interesting that all 5 steam heat units survived until the end. 608-610 were the last 3 off the rails, July 04. I saw a video on YouTube today with an E60 pulling a train of Phase IVb amfleets. 

In the couple of books I have here, there’s no photos of CPs and CHs in anything but Phase II

Good info.  Thanks for sharing.  I have a photo of 975 in Phase III.  I haven't seen any photos of CPs in Phase III.  I think 975 may have been a one off. 

A question.  If 608-610 retained their steam boilers, what did they pull as steam heat was dropped in 1982?  I know about 620-621. 

There is also a video of an E60 pulling Viewliner I sleepers. 

Thats a decent question. The notes state they were converted from steam to HEP when they were converted to 600 series in 1986. So the only thing I can assume is they were used as double headed units with an HEP equipped E60CP, or parked for a while.... (EDIT: Found a note in a photo caption in another book that says they were retired, prior to being rebuilt into MAs).

Another thing to consider (you know, cuz there's not enough already...) is which units had ghetto grilles and which ones didn't. 

I also don't know if there was any external difference between converted CHs and CPs after they became MAs. I'd need to stare at a few photos for a while longer. 

As the MA's lasted thru 03 and 04, any rolling stock is fair game. From 88 til then, phase III-IVb are all fair game, plus the ugly blotch capstone scheme (MTH made a special run for Nicholas Smith), the MHCs are in play, Viewliners, horizons... the works. 

For a start,

E60s equipped with steam would have the “metallics” steam connection below the coupler. 

E60s with 480 HEP would have two pair of receptacles on the pilot below the MU receptacles on the front of the car body.

Tom

@GG1 4877 posted:

Hi Nate,

At this point, the project is still developing, but I can say that the variations will be likely limited to the common versions due to the number of units being run.  For example E60CH 975 in Phase III Paint will still have a Faiveley pantograph as I don't personally anticipate enough units for an alternate.  Still doing some research on what other E60CH road numbers received Phase III paint. 

As to the numbering on the E60MA's it isn't an issue to have one available in the 500 series.  It is simply a decal and in your order, place a note as to what your desired road numbers are.  3rd always tries accommodate number requests when they are made. 

Depending on how the orders are distributed there will be 2-4 road numbers for each when it is prototypically correct. 

Hope that helps!

Hi Jonathan:

Thank you for your detailed reply.  I think an MA and CH/CP are in order.  This is a very exciting development.

To fill in a few gaps on Boilermaker's accurate E60x history, this is from American Rails, who cites noted railroad historian Brian Solomon, among others:

Yeah, I just wasn't going to transpose it all out of a book. At least you found it online. 

There appears to be an interim arrangement.... 600s with unconverted noses (quad headlights, low number boards). These photos are all dated in the 86-88 range...Jonathan, these may be your "phase III CPs and CHs", but I would believe based on the dates that they had already been converted to MAs. Perhaps "early MA" might be better lingo...

600

601

 604

605

608

609

Then at some point later (maybe 1990ish) they gained air conditioners and the converted lighting eyebrow (high numberboards, headlight and flashing strobes), along with losing the nose headlight and nose boards. These would be "late MA" or "final version"

602 with strobe flashers

604 and 610 with strobes (note the plated A pillar windows on 604)

They all ended up looking like this. Honestly, this is what I would view as an E60MA...

Nate, you're all over railpictures with photos of these, you probably know more than I do....

Put in my order for a MA, really excited about this. I just hope the pantographs will work with my catenary system! 

@Boilermaker1 posted:

Another thing to consider (you know, cuz there's not enough already...) is which units had ghetto grilles and which ones didn't.

Ghetto Grilles can be provided as a add-on part for all of the units.  Then the buyer can decide to install them or not.  Not a hard part to make out of brass.

@Maxrailroad posted:

Put in my order for a MA, really excited about this. I just hope the pantographs will work with my catenary system! 

When the GG1 project was done back in 2009 the brass pantographs stretched to prototypical full heights unlike the other mass produced ones and were made from brass.  I am guessing the Faiveley patographs will also be brass parts and extend to full height.  Making them functional is typically just a wire that connects the pantograph to same circuit as the pickup rollers go to for 3 rail.

@Boilermaker1 posted:

Yeah, I just wasn't going to transpose it all out of a book. At least you found it online. 

 

There appears to be an interim arrangement.... 600s with unconverted noses (quad headlights, low number boards). These photos are all dated in the 86-88 range...Jonathan, these may be your "phase III CPs and CHs", but I would believe based on the dates that they had already been converted to MAs. Perhaps "early MA" might be better lingo...

600

601

 604

605

608

609

Then at some point later (maybe 1990ish) they gained air conditioners and the converted lighting eyebrow (high numberboards, headlight and flashing strobes), along with losing the nose headlight and nose boards. These would be "late MA" or "final version"

602 with strobe flashers

604 and 610 with strobes (note the plated A pillar windows on 604)

They all ended up looking like this. Honestly, this is what I would view as an E60MA...

Nate, you're all over railpictures with photos of these, you probably know more than I do....

You've keenly pointed out a variation I was hoping to avoid!  Luckily I have been connected with a gentleman who was very involved in the MA rebuilds for Amtrak and he can hopefully clarify.  I don't believe the low number boards lasted long in the 600 numbering.  I think the late MA is the one to do as it covers the last roughly 15 years of operation of the Amtrak E60s.

@GG1 4877 posted:

When the GG1 project was done back in 2009 the brass pantographs stretched to prototypical full heights unlike the other mass produced ones and were made from brass.  I am guessing the Faiveley patographs will also be brass parts and extend to full height.  Making them functional is typically just a wire that connects the pantograph to same circuit as the pickup rollers go to for 3 rail.

A thought, make them in a quantity so they can be available as a separate sale item. I have several motors that need them. My E-44 alone needs two (yes, I know that it has two different numbers. ):

@PRRMP54 posted:

A thought, make them in a quantity so they can be available as a separate sale item. I have several motors that need them. My E-44 alone needs two (yes, I know that it has two different numbers. ):

Good evening Dave:

Please forgive the slight hijack: 

I agree that the Faiveleys should be a separate sale item.  However, with a little love the stock MTH E44 pans can do pretty good as well.  I sand-blasted mine, soldered the brass dual-strip heads (like you have) and coated the whole thing with NeoLube.  They work great with the overhead.

Just my $0.012.

I can not recommend this book enough. It’s basically a photographic roster. 

Another one worth having is this one:

It was published in 1977 and can be a bit hard to find at a decent price, but it’s doable. If you’re into early Amtrak, it’s a great book. 

@Pantenary posted:

Good evening Dave:

Please forgive the slight hijack: 

I agree that the Faiveleys should be a separate sale item.  However, with a little love the stock MTH E44 pans can do pretty good as well.  I sand-blasted mine, soldered the brass dual-strip heads (like you have) and coated the whole thing with NeoLube.  They work great with the overhead.

 

 

Just my $0.012.

I do not have any example of the MTH one but do  have an Atlas AEM-7 and a Lionel HHP-8. The Atlas one might be made to be serviceable, I did not really examine the Lionel one. For me, the pan must be electrically conductive as my catenary will be hot.

I have a Williams E-33 where the pan only went up a very short distance and upon examination, I found that there are little metal tabs that limit the vertical travel; I bent them out of the way and it now "reaches for the sky". BTW, the Williams is a conventional pan.

This is really great news. If I had the money, I would totally try to get one of these. I can't wait to see what the final product looks like too.

Thank you for making this great E60! Hope I can afford one soon!

If possible I would love to see #603 done for the MA variant, as its one of the only ones left! 

603 is certainly a number that will be run.  With all the equipment I have, I may be better off just making a scale model of the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania.

604 is another likely number too. 

It sounds like the MAs are seeing the most interest.  No love for a classic E60CP?  With all my phase I Amtrak, I will placing an order for one.

Jonathan 

Did Scott mention a deadline for ordering.  I'm likely a classic version buyer but have to make a decision here.  

Scott,

It will be quite some time before reservations would close on this locomotive. I would say early next year if sufficient reservations are gathered to proceed with construction.

Here is a video of an E60 with Viewliners and Amfleet cars.  Note the variety of paint phases in the consist.

https://youtu.be/YSOU-EV7l3Y

Thank you for posting this.  I have been looking to add an NJT E60 to my lineup for years!

Jonathan, any chance? It was in your territory. 

The Black Mesa & Lake Powell Railroad (1973-2019)

Don

The latest GGD newsletter shows these as being canceled as only 60 reservations were received. I don't recall what was the threshold for go/no-go on these.

---PCJ

The run needed to be about 300 units to be viable at that price point.  I hope to find out more soon related to the cancelation.