Adding motors to a non-powered unit

I would think it would be easier to just buy a powered unit of the same series (whatever road name) and change the body.

@Norton posted:

I don't believe an RCMC will drive 4 motors. Best find another powered A and swap shells. I have powered TMCC "dummy" A's but thats when Lionel included R2LCs in them for smoke, lights, and couplers. In those you only need a motor driver, motors, and geared trucks.

He's talking about the RCMC in the unpowered unit driving the two motors that he will add in that unit.

Of course, I think I'd pop that RCMC into the powered unit and test to see if it actually will control motors before making the rest of the investments.

@Norton posted:

I don't believe an RCMC will drive 4 motors. Best find another powered A and swap shells. I have powered TMCC "dummy" A's but thats when Lionel included R2LCs in them for smoke, lights, and couplers. In those you only need a motor driver, motors, and geared trucks.

Pete

It shouldn't have to drive 4 motors.  The powered A unit and the non-powered A unit both have their own full RCMD board.  The non-powered A unit has one for all the directional lights and the second smoke unit.

@GVDobler posted:

I would think it would be easier to just buy a powered unit of the same series (whatever road name) and change the body.

Well if my hunch is correct, I could have another powered unit for about $115 in parts vs. finding another powered A unit.  Especially since they didn't sell the powered A unit by itself - they came as a powered un-powered pair.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Of course, I think I'd pop that RCMC into the powered unit and test to see if it actually will control motors before making the rest of the investments.

Ah yes!  Way to think out of the box GRJ!

What is the item number of the engines? Look up the parts and see if both RCMCs are the same part number. If not then the dummy one may not be programed to drive motors.

Pete

I would think that modifying the dummy frame to accomodate the motors and power trucks would be a significant issue, but I've never looked at this. My guess is that the required modifications and parts required will be more than the OP may think.

As far as the suggestion that the OP would be better off to "just buy" another powered unit, that may be a chore, depending on which engines he has. He says A-A, which would seem to indicate it's a F3 or F7 set. It can be extremely hard to find a powered A unit for sale by itself. Someone would have had to split up another A-A set and part with the powered unit, a circumstance that would be very rare.  

If the frame isn't the same, I'd agree, that could turn into a chore.  Obviously, having item numbers would be a big help...

Frames are the same part number. 

The RCMD board differs by one digit... hmm.  Powered unit is  691RCMD101 vs. 691RCMD102 in the non-powered one.  Description of both parts are:

RCMD / RECEIVER / DRIVER / F-7 / PRR #9656 and 

RCMD / RECEIVER / DRIVER / F-7 / PRR #9657 respectively. 

Both are the same price too.  Whether or not -102 will drive the motors is easy enough to test like GRJ mentioned.

Just be careful swapping them, and don't pull on the wires, only the connectors.   It sometimes makes sense to take a picture of the cables as they are before you start yanking them.   You might also be able to buy some of the wiring bits, always good to check.

I have transferred the powered trucks and boards from a B unit into an A unit on a couple of occasions.  Another point some non powered trucks only need the idle shaft and a motor to be powered.  I confess to not having done this to a Legacy F3 or 7.  However doing the swap from a Legacy B unit to an A unit  does not look to be much more difficult than doing the swap with pre Legacy locos.  I would rather have two powered  A units and a dummy B than a powered B unit. Good Luck.                      j          

@JohnActon posted:

I have transferred the powered trucks and boards from a B unit into an A unit on a couple of occasions.  Another point some non powered trucks only need the idle shaft and a motor to be powered.  

Thanks for the info.  You might be right about the idler shaft. However the wheels on the dummy trucks don't have the gears on them. ☹️

Guess your stuck having to replace the entire truck, x2. One question does the board in your non powered unit have the same part number as the one in your powered unit ?  The reason I ask,  take a look at a RS 3 board some of them only work in Conventional mode and some are TMCC and Conventional compatible (depending on the PIC and ROM) yet outside of the number they look identical.  If that is the case testing the dummy's board in your powered unit as GRJohn suggests would make good sense. If it works you can leave it in the powered unit and install the one from the powered unit in the dummy. If it doesn't purchasing a powered B unit is likely the cheapest solution.  I bought a new Legacy powered shark B unit two years ago for under $100.        Patience is worth it's wait in cash.           j

Well, my hopes were dashed.  Swapping the RCMD from the non-powered to the powered unit didn’t work.  The lights, electro-coupler, and railsounds worked perfectly, but the motors wouldn’t move.  Oddly enough when I dialed up the throttle, the diesel roar did rev up.

On the surface the two RCMD boards look identical. No missing components or connectors.  My guess is that it’s not programmed with the correct software, as others surmised. 

@rplst8 posted:

Well, my hopes were dashed.  Swapping the RCMD from the non-powered to the powered unit didn’t work.  The lights, electro-coupler, and railsounds worked perfectly, but the motors wouldn’t move.  Oddly enough when I dialed up the throttle, the diesel roar did rev up.

On the surface the two RCMD boards look identical. No missing components or connectors.  My guess is that it’s not programmed with the correct software, as others surmised. 

Sorry, I was afraid of that.   I often think Lionel took a clue from MTH when they dropped down to the 385 motor from the 545 mabuchi.  The 545 can deliver very nearly double the power that the 385 does on a continual basis and negates the need for a second powered unit.  I am aware that a 545 will not fit in a GP or SD locomotive's narrow hoods but there are many diesel locos which can use the larger motor and pull a train as long as a four motored AA loco with 385 motors.  I have some spare 545 motors and often look at them and think about installing them in an F3 or E8.  Lionel's first Alco PA units had dual 545 motors and a single powered AA will easily pull a twelve car passenger train without the motors overheating. Before Lionel went to the 385 motors I did not own one MTH diesel. So glad they both kept the large Pittmans in their big steamers.          j

That's why I suggested testing it first.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

That's why I suggested testing it first.

Indeed, and thanks again for that suggestion.  Given that they offered the Penn Central merger F7 AA set a while back where BOTH units were powered, it seems so silly to bother changing the code.  But maybe the logic that would be listening for the tach sensor readout would wig out if no signal was present so they had to disable it.  Though it would have been nice if that circuit just looked for an open circuit condition and just toggled the logic on and off.

Oh well.

Since it had no motors, I can't imagine the tach sensor being a big issue.

So back to my original point, you can still do this but you will have to add a RCMC to your parts list. Likely still less than someone will sell you a powered A for but brings your total outlay to a significant number.

Some folks wonder why many prefer MTH but their Premier AA units have always had 4 motors going back to PS1.

Pete

Wait for the November sale, get the stuff half price.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Since it had no motors, I can't imagine the tach sensor being a big issue.

Why take the time to disable the motor driving code then?

I can't really say, that is clearly a Lionel question.

@rplst8 posted:

Why take the time to disable the motor driving code then?

They did not take time to disable the motor driver they have different software for the same board when used in different applications and it takes about the same time to install regardless of which software package is installed.  Not to mention Lionel is a business and likes to sell trains. They do not benefit, as in keeping them in business. from Us swapping boards so I would not expect their assistance. Be grateful they exist at all and are willing to sell parts to you directly.          j

@JohnActon posted:

They did not take time to disable the motor driver they have different software for the same board when used in different applications and it takes about the same time to install regardless of which software package is installed.  Not to mention Lionel is a business and likes to sell trains. They do not benefit, as in keeping them in business. from Us swapping boards so I would not expect their assistance. Be grateful they exist at all and are willing to sell parts to you directly.          j

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree because they would have had to take the time to create that separate software load for the situation you describe.  It would have likely be easier to load the same software on the powered A and non-powered A units and just reverse the electro-coupler, headlights, and motor field wires.  This, again, assuming that leaving the motor driver, tach sensor, or RailSounds circuitry active wouldn't some damage the board.  I can't see why it would, but I'm leaving that caveat there in case (as cost cutting measure) the board can't handle unloaded circuits.  This was actually a thing back in the old tube amplifier days but is less of a concern with solid state electronics.

And yes, Lionel is a business, but I will not be "grateful they exist" as you suggest if they don't provide a product that demands my hard earned dollars.  I could argue that we all should be grateful that Monsanto, Kraft-Heinz, and Nestle all exist since without them this world could not produce enough food to feed us all - but good luck getting that to fly these days.

Furthermore, this wasn't about "swapping boards" it was about PAYING for extra parts to add some functionality to an existing purchase that lacked it.  It's not like I was complaining that their board didn't work in an MTH engine or something.  Oh, and if they aren't willing to sell parts to us directly, I'd wish them good luck trying to hock their wares, what with the failure rate and damage experienced for brand new items, let alone something a few years old.

Sheesh.

Be thankful Lionel will now sell you the boards outright. A few years ago you had to  return a bad board to get a good one plus you had to get an RA to do it.. Imagine how that would work today?

As John suggested, wait a few months until you can get the parts at 1/2 price. Then place your order. Parts ordered online do get filled sooner now. Typically a week.

Pete

Like Pete says, they have tightened up shipping, I'm getting orders much faster nowadays. 

@Norton posted:

Be thankful Lionel will now sell you the boards outright. A few years ago you had to  return a bad board to get a good one plus you had to get an RA to do it.. Imagine how that would work today?

I'm not going to make excuses for a company that doesn't understand good customer service or give them a pat on the back when they do it right.  That's what the money is for.

As John suggested, wait a few months until you can get the parts at 1/2 price. Then place your order. Parts ordered online do get filled sooner now. Typically a week.

Pete

Totally, that's the plan.  Again, I'm not complaining - I just updated the thread with my findings if others were curious in the future.  Now they don't have to unplug and replug 50 micro connectors to test it.  However, had the board worked as is, I would have paid full price for the motor, trucks, and screws (just to be sure I got them with supply chains being what they are now) - and then they'd still have another board to sell.