Advice on Rivet Press

Are you gently tightening the thumbscrew on the base of the press, and  gently tightening the lock nuts on both sides of the anvil holder? Doing this seems to help with the alignment.

Also, how far is the ram extended in that photo?

If the ram is all the way extended, you might do better to raise the anvil holder more so the ram doesn't extend as much.

I have owned several Hobby Horse presses. I find they tend to stay aligned better when the ram isn't fully extended.

Those two need to be aligned better, any offset can cause the rivet to misform in the direction of offset.

While I "make" rivets for a living, QC dept does the testing of the anvils and rollers and the set up they have is aligned.

BTW- fwiw, anytime you see a split in the rolled section, 9 times out of 10 its the wire used{seamy} and not the operator...once in a great while its an extremely worn die pin but usually it's the wire. Everybody likes to blame the headerman...

  The ram, including the roll clincher, and the anvil, need to be concentric with each other AND the ram must be perfectly perpendicular to the top of the anvil also. If the ram and anvil are not perpendicular, you will bend rivets. If the ram and anvil are perpendicular but not concentric (as yours appears to be), with care you should be able to rivet properly.

  If you have a set of wheel cups, you can check to see if the ram and anvil are perpendicular. Put the wheel cups in the press, and lower the ram so that the top and bottom cups touch. They should touch evenly all around. If they do not, then the press is probably worn or bent. Also, if the wheel cups are not perpendicular to, and concentric with each other, you will not be able to press wheels on at all.

Larry

Thank you for your suggestions.  

The ram is fully extended.

I was originally using the thumb screw and using the lock nuts.  I talked to a few folks that recommended not using the thumb screw and only the top lock nut to allow some "play" in the holder to help with alignment.  In the photo, neither the thumbscrew nor the bottom lock nut is used.  

When configured with only the top lock nut, because of that play I can almost get the ram and the anvil in the same plane.  It still bends the rivet slightly.  When using the thumb screw and the bottom lock nut as well, the alignment is not as bad as in the photo, but there is also no play so the rivets bend more.

Unfortunately I only have the roll clincher tools - no wheel cups to test with as you suggest.  Your comment about needing to be concentric to press wheels makes sense.  I was concerned that without being concentric it would not be possible to press wheels.

I do not understand your comment about being able to rivet even if the if the ram and anvil are not concentric.  I think of being concentric as also being in the same vertical plane - I think that is "describing" the same thing.  Would not the rivet be at an angle and not perpendicular to either the ram or the anvil causing lateral forces resulting in the rivet bending?

Thanks!

- Luther

Luther,

  Being "concentric" means that the center of the ram with the roll clincher lines up exactly with the center of the anvil. The photo you posted shows the ram/roll clincher not centered over the anvil, but offset of center. This will work and clinch rivets straight, but only IF the ram comes down in a straight line in relation to the anvil. If the ram comes down at an angle in relation to the anvil, the press will not exert pressure on the rivet in its' vertical axis, but at an angle. The result is a bent rivet.

 Let's check your press. Take out the roll clincher and the anvil. Screw the base upwards, and lower the ram until it touches the anvil holder/base. Look at the point of contact. The ram should be perfectly centered over the base; front to back, and side to side. The ram should also touch the base evenly, all around. If it touches at some spots and not others, then the press may be worn or bent. If that is the case, the press is useless.

Larry

I'd liken it to this...if you hit a nail at an angle..even if the board and the hammer are in the same angle other than the nail's...does the nail go in straight?

They need to be aligned- top to bottom/side to side/all the way around. Any shiifting or off-alignment while rolling will allow the rivet to roll offset and misform.

I agree that the two need to be aligned, but if you fail to get good rolled rivets, contact Jeff Kane (www.ttender.com).  He had some dies made from polished tool steel that are 10x better than the old Chicago Rivet dies.  I bought a set from him 17 years ago and use them every day.  You could just buy the #2 & #3 die as that will be all you need for 90% of your riveting needs.

quote:

I was originally using the thumb screw and using the lock nuts.  I talked to a few folks that recommended not using the thumb screw and only the top lock nut to allow some "play" in the holder to help with alignment.  In the photo, neither the thumbscrew nor the bottom lock nut is used.  

 

When configured with only the top lock nut, because of that play I can almost get the ram and the anvil in the same plane.  It still bends the rivet slightly.  When using the thumb screw and the bottom lock nut as well, the alignment is not as bad as in the photo, but there is also no play so the rivets bend more.

I've been using a Hobby Horse press for around 29 years.

IMHO, you really do not want play in the anvil holder.

Adjust the anvil holder so the ram is not going all the way down. I have owned four Hobby Horse Presses of different vintages, including two of the customized ones for Lionel. I've also examined several more. When the ram is fully extended, they tend to cock slightly, causing a mis-alignment.

Also, the press does not automatically align the rivet. One has to be very carefull to make certain that the shaft of the rivet is straight so the rolling clincher is hitting it squarely. The rivet will also bend/crush if you use a clincher that is too small. The original Chicago Rivet Clinchers have a somewhat semi-circular "ball" at the tip that expands the semi-tubular rivet's tip. I find that the nicest clinch is achieved when a tiny bit of the ball is visible when I test fit the rivet to the clincher. If none of the ball is visible, it willl crush.

With a little practice, you should be able to form rivets that look just like they came from the factory.

Did you buy your press new?

Regardless, if you continue to have problems, I suggest you contact Carl for advice. He makes the presses, he should be able to give you the best advice.

http://hobbyhorseproducts.com/

quote:

He had some dies made from polished tool steel that are 10x better than the old Chicago Rivet dies.  I bought a set from him 17 years ago and use them every day. 

I have one of Jeff's sets too. IMHO, they are very high quality, and much more affordable than original Chicago Rivet tooling. I also have Chicago Rivet tooling, and almost every tool Hobby Horse has made.

If available, I generally use a Chicago Rivet tool. Hobby Horse tools are used as required.
Over the years I've also accumulated a fair number of Chicago Rivet tools that were modified by grinding away portions of the tool for clearance, as well as all sorts of bits and pieces that repair folks used to supplement the original tools.

I found that the original, unmodified 15 piece tool set was of somewhat limited use.

One thing I though of last night was that we're all assuming that the press is all at fault...and while the alignment issue is suspect, maybe the rivets are too. Were I work, I can think of many rivets where they look the same but there are slight differences in the hole diameter and the pin depth...if a hole diameter is too big the rivet will be given the chance to offset when rolled. Like water, metal will go the easiest path its given so excess play or slop is no good.

Do these dies have rivet specs that they are to be used with...spec limits?

Like I've said, Ive got 25yrs of the "making rivets" aspect...the uses sometimes surprise me.

quote:

BTW- fwiw, anytime you see a split in the rolled section, 9 times out of 10 its the wire used{seamy} and not the operator...once in a great while its an extremely worn die pin but usually it's the wire. Everybody likes to blame the headerman...

I find that semi-tubular rivets will also split when the rolling clincher is too large.

Thank you all for the information; it has been helpful. Larry & Burlington Route - I appreciate the follow up explanation - the concepts are clear for me now.

I am using Jeff Kane's tool set. I actually bought the press new through Jeff and we have talked about the issues I have been having on the phone. As always, Jeff stands behind his products and has committed to doing what needs to be done to get it right. I just wanted a few additional opinions before deciding if I should send it back. I suspect shipping an item that size will be costly and cumbersome.

As for the rivets- I am using rivets purchased from Jeff as well. I have tried different size rivets - from coupler rivets (TC-23) to roller rivets (481-12) and the result is the same - they bend to the left close to the head or they roll heavier on the left side which would be consistent with the photo where the anvil is to the right of the ram.

I also extended the base all the way and the ram all the way down as Larry suggested. The ram is offset to the left of the base center by a fair amount. Even loosening up the locknuts / thumb screw on the base and trying to wiggle it around will still not get an alignment.

Hey Luther...and anyone who uses these presses for rolling...you can use a 2nd or 3rd party for your rivet supplies, but you may find that somewhere in your local area exsists a cold header shop...the process of making rivets/bolts is called "cold heading"....if you find one they would probably be happy to sell you whatever you'd need in whatever coating you'd want....our place usually sells in 5k - 1500k batches{little as 1000pc samples}, but I'm sure any salesman would grab a handful for ya for a good price, if they're already in stock.

Might be worth a search...

I have a HH press that i brought to york for Carl to look at.  When you look at the front to back position, the upper ram is an a slight backwards angle.  My rivets kept folding.  He is looking at it now.

Tried repositions, but bending the bottom to match the top meant that the two pices were at an agle to each other to meet up.

Luther and Ben,

  If the press is new and misaligned, then there is a manufacture/quality control issue.

Return to place of purchase, and have seller physically check replacement before shipping out.

Larry

NavyBen,

I had a heck of a time with mine.  Thankfully I purchased it through Jeff Kane @ The Train Tender and not direct from Carl.  Jeff worked with me to get it returned with a refund.  

Honestly I will never deal with Carl or Hobby Horse again.  His customer service was horrible.  Jeff had tried to set up a few calls directly between Carl and I to discuss the issues.  I left three polite messages during afternoon business hours over the course of a week and Carl never would call me back.  Jeff got involved again and got everyone on the phone.  The short of it was Jeff finally coordinated the return and paid for the shipping.  If I had bought it direct from Carl I suspect that I would have been stuck with an unusable very heavy paperweight.

I ended up getting a TTRP STX-360 press through Henning's Trains.  I had emailed Henning's some questions on about the press based on the HH debacle.  (Their press can be adjusted if it ever gets out of alignment).  Henning forwarded the email to TTRP and had a response within 48 hours.

I went through about 40 knuckle rivets with the Hobby Horse press - every one bent or rolled crooked.  With the TTRP press in one afternoon I did probably 10 knuckle pins, 6 armature springs and three sliding shoes + springs.  I still bent a few rivets along the way which was to be expected as I got used to riveting; I had no previous experience.  At the end of the afternoon I could not tell the difference between the original PW Lionel rivets and the ones that I did.  Needless to say I am very happy with the STX-360.

I did keep Jeff Kane's tooling - it does a really nice job (as does the TTRP supplied tools).  Jeff has his own tooling made.

I hope you can get your press issue straightened out.  It is not a cheap investment and to have to go through the frustration is aggravating.

- Luther Stanton

Good info since I'm looking for a rivet press.

John.

To Jon G 

You said earlier:  

 You could just buy the #2 & #3 die as that will be all you need for 90% of your riveting needs.

I am just getting started in the Rivet business -- and am having trouble identifing 

the # 2  and #  3   dies in Jeff's offerings?  

Jeff has ST-350- 8   -9 -10 -11 -12  Roll Clinchers  -- are these the dies you refer to? 

Thanks 

I would contact Jeff Kane (www.ttender.com).  He had these dies made for him and that was the numbering system engraved on the head.  I don't know if he has any left, but he would know what number corresponds to standard ST series dies made by Chicago Rivet.

Jon G 

Jeff is asking  " Is the Die  #2  or #3   one of the items in this standard set " ?

He doesn't remember  the  term Die #2 or #3.  

I have a picture of the standard set - if that would help 

Thanks -- sorry for all the questions 

His numbering system was 1-5 with one being the smallest.  #1 is used for ZW and TC-23 coupler rivets, 2 is used for the TT-208 sliding shoe and magnetic coupler baseplate rivets and 3 is used for the larger 566 truck rivets.  I rarely use 4 & 5, but I do use the star clincher.  If he is still unclear, have him call me (Jon Grasson).

One tool I frequently use is the splaying clincher, which has an "X" on the end.

So far, I don't think individual anvils have been mentioned. I use anvils from the five piece Hobby Horse accessory anvil set, and an accessory flat anvil quite a bit. These anvils did not come in the Lionel set. Often the terminal post anvils (from the Lionel set) can be used as flat anvils.

Also, did I skim over the final results on the misaligned press issue?  I am wondering how Luther finally made out.

C.W.,

A few posts up I did follow up with the result.  I did not have good results with Carl.  I bought the HH Press through Jeff Kane and not direct from Carl.  Jeff arranged to return the press and even covered the return shipping.  Jeff's customer service has always been outstanding.

I went with a press from Henning's - the STX-360.  Henning's is another hobby shop with fantastic service.  I bought their tooling and kept Jeff's custom tooling as well.

I am very satisfied with the STX-360.  I have been able to do every repair I have encountered - coupler rivets, sliding shoes, coupler armature springs, replaced the armature shaft / worm gear on a 2023 Alco, roller replacement, replaced a missing plunger on 3483, etc.

Thank you for following up.

I have a pretty good NWSL Sensi-press but never really used it for rivets.  Well mostly it is used for embossing rivet heads in either brass or plastic. 

Hello Bob,

I don't want to hi-jack the thread; however do you know of a cold-heading manufacturer that will deal over the internet/phone?  I'm looking for bulk quantities (1000 or more) of miniature rivets - 1/16" head diameter- solid - soft 1100 grade aluminum - preferably countersunk

r0d

quote:

I have a pretty good NWSL Sensi-press but never really used it for rivets.

Would the NWSL Sensi-press be capable of creating enough force to clinch rivets without being damaged?
I don't really know how much force is required, but the NWSL press seems to be very light duty to me (I've seen pictures of it elsewhere too).