Amtrak Derailment Outside Philadelphia

Might we make anything of the much lower death count then the disasterous Pennsy Congressional Limted wreck of '43, with 79 deaths? Would believe the PRR train would potentially have been traveling at a slower speed and might have had heavy weight passenger cars.

You continue to talk down to everyone...did you not learn a lesson here this past week?  You stated that trains crawl in that area. An 80 mph speed limit is not crawling! SIR!!!!

Who's talking down to whom here, Ron???    Obviously, you've never learned any lessons here.  I stated what I experienced in that area while riding Metroliners for YEARS in the North Philly area.  If you feel the need to remind us of your credentials as a former engineman, then so be it.  But can you do it without talking down to people???  The "experts" seem real good about doing that around here. 

You're complaining about tempering what's reported on CNN, and I relayed something that was factual from my own personal experience as well as from CNN and the NTSB.  Sorry if you don't like it.  That area of trackage on the Northeast Corridor is the LAST place we'd expect to hear a locomotive traveling in excess of 100+ MPH, which it obviously shouldn't have been -- even in an 80MPH zone that precedes the curve's 50MPH limit.  And as a former engineman, you should know better.

David  (former weekly Metroliner passenger between WDC and NYC from 1987-2005)

P.S.  Gosh... I really HATE when people can't have civil conversation round here, when all some of us are trying to do is provide information to other forum members who are unfamiliar with this location.  So I posted a map, and related how I recalled trains literally lolly-gagging their way through that area many times.  If you can't join the conversation civilly, then please BUTT OUT!!!  Is that straight enough for ya???

Even the old Automatic Train Stop system would have keep this from happening. Not a bunch of new technology to invent, ATS goes back to about the 1930's.

Amtrak CEO: Derailment could have been prevented, from CNN on You Tube.

6:10 PM EDT

ok what am I missing...wreck happened two days ago and the engineer still hasn't talked to the Feds.he's had plenty of time to get a lawyer he said he wanted.

According to the latest report on CNN just minutes ago, the locomotive engineer's attorney provided the following quote:

"He remembers coming into the curve (and) attempting to reduce speed," attorney Robert Goggin said. "... The last thing he recalls is coming to, looking for his bag, getting his cell phone, turning it on and calling 911."

I am certain the the NTSB will ask him how he explains the speed prior to entering the curve since he remembers "coming into the curve." That is, unless selective memory induced by a layer in PYA mode, has given him some advice.

My feeling is that any information he offers that connects the excessive speed of the train to some action or inaction of his, could be interpreted as gross negligence. Therefore, he will be advised by his attorney to cite his concussion and fuzzy memory.

We do not know yet what happened but if equipment failure is ruled out by the NTSB . . . . then where would it go?

Scrapiron

Where was the conductor during all of this? Has he been interviewed? Shouldn't he have known about the reduced speed order near North Philly?

Just wondering; he seems to be conspicuously absent from the news reports. 

He would certainly have had the ability to contact the engineer by radio if he suspected something was wrong.

One question:

Are these Siemans electric locos capable of very rapid acceleration, more so than a diesel electric? My guess would be probably.

Lawyer said, I do the talking you do the being quiet.

Just like your insurance company tells you if you are involved in an accident: SHUT UP.  Just like anyone involved in the tax industry will tell taxpayers when with the IRS: SHUT UP.

The engineer in the Metro North case had an undiagnosed type of sleep apnea making what happened more or less inevitable but apparently not something train crews are screened for.  Shutting up was the best thing for him to do too.

All the passengers I've seen interviewed said they had no idea the train was going too fast.  They said they have very little sensation of how fast a train is moving, especially in the dark.  If the conductor was collecting tickets from Philadelphia passengers he may not have noticed it either.

I'm sure he'll be questioned. He's equally responsible as well .  Operation of the train is the most important part of his job. It's not so easy at night with a train full of passengers keeping track of exactly where you are however  He should know  if a  experienced regular on the job. I guess I don't understand why the train was going well over the speed 80   before entering the curve.  

when I mentioned operation of the train I don't mean being  in the engine cab..

The conductor usually not at the throttle

The engineer drives the train and may be alone in the cab..

I'm sure the engineer is doing just what his mouth piece is telling him to do, I guess what I don't understand is why a represented person seems to be able to tell the authorities when he will talk to them.

Train kept speeding up before derailment

 Apparently  the engineer call 911 after the accident with his cell phone. I suspect this phone would be Company issued and only to  be used in emergency situations in case of the engine's radio failure.   

Probably not, as it is an FRA violation to have ANY cell phone on your person, whether turned on or turned off. His personal cell phone was in his grip, and turned off, in compliance with FRA regulations.

The most unusual information I heard on the evening news (FOX citing the NTSB) was that the train sped up from 70 mph (in the 80 mph speed limit area before the curve) to 106 mph up just before, or upon entering the curve with its 50 mph speed limit. 

Unless things are different for class ones, we (tourist line, FRA mandated) can have our cell phones in our pockets but it has to be turned off. I know we've had surprise visits by the FRA and they have checked. As long as it is turned off, it can be on you. 

Maybe it was equipped with an Audi throttle?

Received word that Rachel will be brought back home to Detroit for a funeral Monday morning. 

Would be nice to have some answers as to why the train was traveling at that speed.

from the pics of the train wreck,,those ties are not concrete....your thoughts on THAT?

I believe that locopilot750 makes a good point.  This is not the first over speed wreck on a curve that might have been avoided by installing a fixed Approach signal that would have put the train into penalty if the engineer did not take the proper actions in the cab.  This is very old technology and available today. The curve at Franklin Junction has been there for a long time. Why was it no protected?          

Fascinating to hear the information being released by the NTSB thus far.  And it's a perfect example of why we should let them "do their job" the way they do it.

CNN had an Amtrak engineer (who works in the system south of DC) on their 10pm program tonight, and he commented that accelerating from 70 to 100mph in a minute is not at all unusual for these electric locomotives.  Obviously should not have been happening in this location, but the locomotive technology allows for that kind of acceleration.

It will be very interesting to see what the NTSB discovers during its interview(s) with the engineer who was at the controls of the derailed train.

We so often want to think of things as if everything is working as planned.  But when a tragedy like this occurs, it's all more the reason to let the investigation proceed on course and let the data gathered lead to an eventual conclusion.

Fascinating stuff.

David

josey, I'm sure HW can speak for himself...but if I may jump in here to diffuse a little tension...

I'm pretty certain that concrete ties are used in that location for Amtrak's highest-speed service.  Years ago when I rode the Metroliners, I often saw concrete ties on the inner tracks first...then eventually most -- if not all -- locations upgraded to concrete ties on the outer tracks as well.   

In this case, when the heavy locomotive jumped off the track, it ripped up nearby freight tracks that don't use concrete ties.  And that may be what we're seeing if you're referring to bent rails and damaged wood ties around where the derailed locomotive came to rest.  Seems reasonable, but I can't say with 100% certainty.   The distance that the derailed locomotive travelled off the mainline is nothing short of amazing and speaks to the laws of physics in play at the time of the derailment.

Hope that helps.

David

I read an article on diesel engines and commuter engines are designed to sprint between stops unlike freighters so the rapid acceleration didn't surprise  me but WHERE it happened is strange. I think the NTSB knows much more than they are telling the public and I can understand that. There might be criminal charges filed so that has to be considered.

Count on it.  But I think they're still approaching the data collection with an open mind.  For example, perhaps they'll find that the engineer dozed off slightly and was jarred awake just when the train entered the curve to apply emergency breaking (albeit too late).  People have undiagnosed medical conditions that cause this type of scenario to play out.   This is why PTC and the inward facing cameras in the cab are so important.  But even without those technologies in this case, perhaps the data will infer that somehow.

Not saying that happened here... but it's an example of something that the collected data/information may lead the NTSB to conclude (or rule out).  Amtrak would still be "liable".  But it's more of a terribly tragic set of circumstances at that point rather than reckless operation.  Yes?

Speaking of legalities... I saw on CNN last night that one of the hospitalized Amtrak employees who was riding the train that fateful night has already secured a law firm to file a preliminary legal claim against Amtrak.  The lawyers were interviewed on the 10pm program.  So this is just the beginning.  

David

Interesting to think that on the 1:1 scale trains there is only an "miniscule" 3/16th inch wide flange (per AAR drawings) holding the wheel against the rail forces.  Amazing that wheels don't jump the rails more often at turnouts, crossovers and grade crossings.

By contrast our "toy" high rail engine wheel flanges are about 0.0787 inches which would be about 3.78 inches wide in 1:1 scale.

So in this instance, given the speeds through the sharp curve, I seriously doubt even a 3.75 inch engine flanges would have held the rails and prevented this accident.  Contrast this to how often our engine and cars derail for seemingly no reason, all things being equal.

Now back to armchairing and second guessing the NTSB.

How about another wild card to throw into this mix:

Could this engineer, like the German Wings pilot, have wanted to commit suicide and mass murder?

Hence the last seconds' acceleration as it entered the curve! 

One that that makes no sense is the NTSB is saying the train speed increased as it got near the curve, that it had been travelling at normal speed and sped up. From what I can tell,once you get past this curve, the speed then increases to 100 mph...

Could the engineer have had a brain fart, thought he was past the curve when he wasn't, sped up, then at the last minute realized his mistake and tried to brake? Would fit what we are hearing, but seems like a stretch that the engineer wouldn't know where he was. 

What is the abandoned line in the center of the junction about where the loco landed...the line looks to head straight into Philly but is now used to store freight cars?

I wonder what the true speed is of a curve like this...I would guess that the timetable speed is super conservative for safety reasons.  The curve looks to be banked steeply.

Sam,

I have no idea where you found that bit of information, but, I guarantee that the wheel flange is much thicker than 3/16"!!!

Stuff like this is why we need to let the NTSB do their job.

Amtrak Northeast corridor map.  Click to access.

A Wikipedia clip on the Northeast corridor.  Relatively old information. Shows about 8 million riders a year. A quick read, shows equipment manufacture dates, 1970's. . IMO Infra-structure and equipment is in need of upgrade. IMO. 

Several years ago a picture of an Acela, South Station, Boston.

I travel to Boston a couple of times a year, family. Takes about 12 hrs via interstates/there are tolls. It would be nice to catch the train in Pittsburgh and be there in 8 hrs. but I don't see that happening in my lifetime. The train has a hard time making Philly in 8 hrs, a 5 hr. drive on the PA turnpike I 76. Note that the PA turnpike cost, relatively expensive, is still less than an Amtrak ticket.  

Since you asked, the photos at the "clean-up site" are wood ties, as those are in the freight yard. If you will please look at the overhead photos of where the Amtrak train "jumped the track", you will see the that the Northeast Corridor main tracks are predominately ALL concrete ties.

I think you are close,bigkid. instead of incrementing down from 70mph, the train incremented up.

The last NTSB presser that I watched on local news around 6:30pm on 5/14, to get the whole event, he omitted the data recorder action information and only discussed the video.

That would have revealed what action occurred to cause the incremental increase in speed.

The other facts from the presser, were that infrastructure was ok and functioning, including a track geometry inspection the day before and train was ok.

Too bad, it does appear engineer error.

Earlier yesterday, the Amtrak CEO answered a question about AMTRAK's control system and mentioned 225mHz signal problems. This is the only dark area between DC and Boston, Wilmington to NY.

So, nothing for the politicians to throw money at after all on this rail system. What happened to the 8 billion of shovel ready projects?

Regarding memory loss in concussions, and some comments on here implying "selective memory loss:"

Loss of memory is not uncommon in concussions. The memory loss can be severe and permanent. I myself, an MD who should have known better, slipped on ice in the driveway a few years ago and knocked myself unconscious. Although I quickly "came to" and was interacting with people, I was making no sense. "The lights were on, but there was nobody at home." To this day I have loss of about 8 hours of memory prior to and subsequent to the event. I do not remember my wife taking me to the hospital, having sutures, getting a CAT scan, etc.

The possibility is there that the engineer may truly not remember what happened.

Another interesting item that the national news media doesn't appear to have picked up on yet; the "projectile marks" on the locomotive windshield glass, which seem to match the same "marks" on the windshield glass of a previous locomotive (which has been removed from service for repairs), which passed through the same area earlier.