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Originally Posted by Happy Pappy:

It is truly amazing. This thread started out with a certain degree of professionalism.

One question remains. What happened to it? A little disgusting that it sounding like the tabloids.  IMHO                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

I think it's entertaining....and informative. We're hearing from psychologists, physicists, urban blight experts, lawyers, etc.  And guess what?....none of us are part of the investigation, as far as I know, so it's all nothing but interesting speculation.

 

Or, as someone once said:  You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

In a page A3 article this morning, the Washington Post quoted an Amtrak statement concerning the speed protections north and south at Frankfort Jct.  Southbound was given automatic train stop protection because the approach from the north for this class of train (regional passenger) was 110 mph and, should the engineer overlook making the required reduction for the curve, it could not be rounded at 110 mph.

 

In contrast, from the south (east in the statement), the approach velocity was mentioned as being as high as 80 mph by Amtrak  "while those in route to New York (from the west) are slowing from speeds of up to 80 mph."  But, Amtrak continued, [automatic train stop] was not installed for trains headed from Philadelphia to New York, because [these approach] speeds "were so much lower that a train that did not slow could still round the curve without derailing."

 

I want to not follow the published Post report further because its gist has already departed very slightly from my own understanding.  In the 70's and 80's (ie, PC and Amtrak eras in the NEC) my engineering company had contracts involving PC and later directly from Amtrak.  One involved modifications at Ivy City to do light repairs on the GG-1 engines owned by Amtrak, as well as the Metroliner equipment.

 

It will help to go back to the PC standards in this regard.  From 30th Street station north, the usual passenger speed limits were 30-> 70-> 50-> 100-> mph.  I believe this was a reference to locomotive-hauled passenger equipment of the "tubular" car type.  In reviewing my information, there is a certain class of equipment ("A"?), and/or possibly identified as "Metroliner," that was permitted 60 mph around the curve at the present derailment.  I believe, however, that the reference was to self-propelled Metroliners, not the later trains consisting of locomotive-hauled Metroliner coaches.

 

In my opinion, I think the self-propelled Metroliners would have had a sufficiently low center-of-gravity to safely round the accident curve at 80 mph.  However, I cannot entirely confirm that a "tubular" train locomotive-hauled by the one-year old "600"-class B-B electric engines could even round this posted 50 mph curve at 70 mph [as had been my opinion in my last post].  It may be slightly short of it, and thus with reasonable certainty 80 mph here would have been out of the question.

 

A comment on the GG-1 locomotive may be useful here.  Based on some logical evaluation of what I know about their construction (probably a little more than is usually found published), I formed the opinion that the GG-1 electrics could very possibly have rounded the accident curve at 100 mph, given a suitable train possibly such as Metroliner coaches (I'm more certain of the engine than the coaches of its day, from memory).  It's a matter of where the center-of-gravity is located (and if the high rail has enough rail braces on it).

 

You might conclude that PRR thought it better to build locomotives that could tranverse such curves unintentionally, rather than spend substantial sums on easing curves at such locations (there is another awkward curve on the Harrisburg line, just west of Paoli).  Then, the engineering question is not why PRR did not ease this curve at Frankfort Jct, but rather why the policy of avoiding engines with a high center-of-gravity was discontinued without compensating measures.

 

In the matter of memory loss, we had such an experience here in the family.  A case of head hitting the driver's-side door pillar, unconsciousness for a time--less than an hour (concussion obviously), and memory loss.  The neurosurgeon explained this as a never-completed transfer from short-term memory to long-term memory, seen quite often in such situations.  Memory of the accident never came back, as far as I know; no other permanent effects seen.  In fact, the victim showed not incapacity in any other area of activity, physical or mental, except inability to recall the missing 15 minutes.

 

So, yes, I find the engineer's inability to remember not at all surprising, nor his seemingly unimpaired ability to apply the brakes.  It is possible we see two such incidents, of different degree, overlapping.  Hopefully, some here will have seen the brief TV clip of the engineer's windscreen this morning.

 

By the way, the rate of acceleration (increasing speed) can be shown as being constant at 5/6ths foot per second per second, from a projected point of beginning about two miles (a little less?) short of the brake application.  This rate is somewhere between one-quarter and one-third the rate of acceleration the engine would be capable of, at first glance.

 

--Frank

All too familiar browsing one of my books this afternoon.

Back on March 2, 1962 the North Coast Limited literally flew off a curve at Granite, Idaho at 75-80 mph. Same deal engineer left his train wide open on the throttle. A 30 mph restricted curve and a 75-80 mph train do not mix.

Photos courtesy of Trains Magazine "All Aboard" holiday 2013 issue. "When one is ONE TOO MANY" By Bill Kuebler, Roberta McConnel, and Jacqueline White. Photography all property of Kalmbach publishing and mostly by R. V. Nixon and the collection of Bill Kuebler.imageimageimageimageimageimage

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Last edited by Erik C Lindgren
Originally Posted by F Maguire:
... But, Amtrak continued, [automatic train stop] was not installed for trains headed from Philadelphia to New York, because [these approach] speeds "were so much lower that a train that did not slow could still round the curve without derailing."

 

...

This is consistent with my recollection from the days I rode the Metroliner quite regularly from Philly to NYC during weekday mornings.  Trains often picked up speed after the curve, and really seemed to travel unimpeded north of Trenton. 

 

Later in the day (i.e., around 5-6PM), I'd grab a Metroliner from NYC back to Philly... and after the curve (traveling Southbound), I always noticed trains often lolly-gagging their way through North Philadelphia and on into 30th Street Station... most likely due to rail traffic congestion.  Metroliners always had priority to move faster (that's why we paid the big $$$ for a Metroliner ticket! ), but even those trains were affected when congestion was really bad.

 

David

The NEC is all Amtrak and has been since Conrail in 1976, that is a historical fact. Conrail got trackage rights on this part of the corridor for local freight service until the CSX/NS merger, when it became a part of Conrail Shared Assets. The freight yard that the 601 derailed into is the Frankford Jct. freight yard of this Shared Assets division.
This was not hard to verify or research...

Originally Posted by Happy Pappy:
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by tplee:

Has it been determined who is actually (owns) responsible for the said trackage?

Buzz

Amtrak "owns" the entire Northeast Corridor from Washington DC through New York to New Haven, Conn..

Water,

I'm not doubting you what-so-ever. There was a story released stating as you say. It also disclosed that the small section of trackage involved is owned by CSX. Then it got all legal about how CSX leased rights to another who in turn leased to Amtrak. The way it sounds this will be in the courts for a long time. Especially since there's a liability cap in place. What say you, my friend? 

Amtrak owns the entire NEC except for Shell Interlocking (New Rochelle, NY) to New Haven, which is owned by Metro North.

 

The derailment intruded upon Conrail Shared Assets territory (the adjoining freight yard).

 

---PCJ

Originally Posted by Happy Pappy:

RailRide,

Your information was the exact answer I needed, Thank you!

 

Borden Tunnel,

The way the pie is cut is why most citizens are confused. Regardless of who did what, where or when or who to. I'm sure glad that you did not tell me, "Google It". Until next time..........


Pappy, as an amateur historian/author with my "other" hobby (fire apparatus and firefighting), I enjoy research of all kinds, but I admit that it is puzzling to me why more people do not, guess it is another sign of the times...
Perhaps the sheer amount of info on the internet is intimidating to many persons today, seems like every issue causes a catfight.

Interesting comment posted to a news story found here:


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ph...sea-of-razor-blades/


"J GOHDE 19 hours ago
the darkness and danger of Train 188's mangled first car. "Going into that car was like diving into barbed wire or going into, like, a sea of razor blades," Hough said. "Everybody that went in there got injured. It was extremely dangerous."

The mangled first car was a direct result of the engineer slamming on the breaks.  That was the worst thing the fool could have done.  The first thing you do is turn off the forward power control.  Then you gradually, but ONLY periodically apply the brakes.  The Amtrak engineer was a total fool. He behaved like a nervous grandma driving a car for the very first time."

Any validity to this guys claims about using the emergency brakes????
Last edited by Erik C Lindgren
Originally Posted by Lee Carlson:

"Amtrak owns the entire NEC except for Shell Interlocking (New Rochelle, NY) to New Haven, which is owned by Metro North"

 

The State of Connecticut (Dept. of Transportation) owns from the state Line to New Haven.  Metro North operates it.  

Saw that in a Wikipedia article a couple of hours after I posted it. Wasn't in time to correct it.

 

---PCJ

Originally Posted by Erik C Lindgren:
...
"J GOHDE 19 hours ago... <comments made in poor taste deleted>

Any validity to this guys claims about using the emergency brakes????

Why people are even given the option of commenting on these online news articles is a total waste of resources.  I don't even read these comments anymore.  They're usually useless gibberish... and this one is a prime example.

 

David

Originally Posted by Rocky Mountaineer:

       
Originally Posted by Erik C Lindgren:
...
"J GOHDE 19 hours ago... <comments made in poor taste deleted>

Any validity to this guys claims about using the emergency brakes????

Why people are even given the option of commenting on these online news articles is a total waste of resources.  I don't even read these comments anymore.  They're usually useless gibberish... and this one is a prime example.

 

David


       


David this behavior is a constant in almost every facet of online articles. May it be the latest iPhone, a new car, or in this case a tragedy... These IDIOTS are always posting in the comments sections "facts and facts and more facts, all delivered in a factual tone of authority..." One simply CANNOT trust anything you read online.
Latest bash...

"How Amtrak Failed the Victims of Train 188: A Survivor’s Tale
The crash was a tragedy. Amtrak’s response was a disaster.
By JOSH GOTBAUM May 19, 2015
Lead image by AP Photo."


Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazi...3.html#ixzz3agUvo1XR

"Amtrak’s defenders want to blame Congress, saying this could have been prevented if a computerized automatic braking system had been installed. Congress certainly reinforced that argument by voting that same week to cut Amtrak’s budget. There are few organizations anywhere that could not do with more resources. Nonetheless, the failures we experienced didn’t seem to come from a lack of money, but rather a lack of compassion from Amtrak staff and a lack of attention or competence from Amtrak management."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazi...2.html#ixzz3ahC94zG0

One could wonder if certain media agencies get kick backs and fluffies from settled lawsuits? This article should and would help a wrongful death or injury case.

http://www.politico.com/magazi...23.html#.VVyCFVeCOnM
Last edited by Erik C Lindgren
The winning comment of the day:

"redmist
15 hours ago
“Be (un)prepared.” Unlike the airlines, Amtrak appeared totally unprepared for the disaster. Amtrak appeared to have no plans or procedures for responding to the emergency, much less training of its employees and practice implementing them.

The difference is the airlines know they will be forced to go out of business if they chase away all their customers.
Amtrak, like all government backed operations, don't care. They don't need customers to survive. They have taxes collected at the point of a gun.
1  Reply"
The airlines get a lot of government money as well and many people would argue that they don't seem too interested in customer service either sometimes.
A pal who teaches business classes in a university once said to me, "the worst customer service you're likely to see is either in transportation of passengers or medical providers. The only real difference is that at one point, transportation companies used to care what their customer experienced. The medical field never has, and I truly doubt ever will"
 
Originally Posted by Erik C Lindgren:
That's a big negative on the gunshot theory

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/18/...ak-train-derailment/

After completing its examination of the windshield, the FBI found no evidence of damage that could have been caused by a firearm, according to an NTSB statement issued Monday. "The NTSB has not ruled out the possibility that another object may have struck the windshield."

http://www.newsworks.org/index...-amtrak-188-speeding

Interesting graphic on this story. I was under the impression the speed limit was 80mph before the curve????

image

It only states "65" at some great distance. An omission to enhance the sensationality of the story.. "WAS AMTRAK 188 SPEEDING!!!!!"

Honestly the news media needs some kind of check and balance. Do these news agencies just print up whatever they want in respect to the so called "freedom of speech" or press for the people!?


And of course the peanut gallery speaks (comments):

"South Philly
9 days ago
This is horrific. And note the proximity of the volatile crude oil trains to the trajectory of the derailment. Shame on Philadelphia.
0  Reply"

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Last edited by Erik C Lindgren

Here was one of the CNN headlines from a while ago on this:

 

Amtrak engineer touted safety tools

 

Long before Amtrak Northeast Regional Train 188 jumped the rails at excessive speed, engineer Brandon Bostian apparently was an online advocate to prevent this kind of calamity -- technology to slow a dangerously fast train  when an engineer does not.

 

I suspect that with over a billion dollars a year of politically controlled tax dollars at stake that the politics of this incident are overwhelming... and the desire to spin the story for sensationalism or political gain must be equally as great.

 

Presumably the NTSB can be relied on to render an investigation free of political bias and influence. 

Last edited by Rule292

Eddie,

I watched the final press conference by the NTSB. What stood out to me was the non-public release of the event data recorder correlated with the forward facing video data.

 

That would have shown if the incremental speed increases were engineer actuated.

 

The other missing piece of information is the result of the FBI investigation into what type of hole was in the windshield opposite the engineer. If it were a bullet, could it have hit something in the control panel after penetrating the windshield?

 

I suppose we will wait two years before the NTSB issues a final report. Even then we may not get all of the facts publicly.

 

So, the media moves on, with no care that the lives of 243 passengers and many others are changed forever.  

Last edited by Moonman

From Philadelphia's KYW Newsradio:

 

The FBI says it has ruled out that the windshield was struck by a firearm but is still investigating whether the train was hit by another object.

 

And, while there was cell phone activity on the day of the crash, investigators cannot say yet whether any of that activity occurred while Amtrak 188 was in motion.

 

Last weekend I was doing some railfanning at the Perryville, Md. MARC station, near where the NEC crosses the Susquehanna River, and noticed that while the southbound trains where flying by at high speeds the northbound trains (towards Wilmington, De. and 30th St.), both Acela's and ACS-64's, were traveling much much slower, maybe 30mph.

I watched the final press conference by the NTSB. What stood out to me was the non-public release of the event data recorder correlated with the forward facing video data.

 

That would have shown if the incremental speed increases were engineer actuated.

I wondered about why the video data had to be used to ascertain speed...  similar to the old method of clocking the catenary frames on the open line... eleven spans to the mile.  I have to ask whether the black box method of recording had some shortcomings.

 

I can't agree that all this would prove that the engineer was incrementally increasing the speed.  The 600-series motors actually have a form of cruise control.  A target speed is set on the computer, and the computer then makes the speed changes on its own.

 

In this case (plot the data, as the Washington Post did (I had already done that), and assume the rate of increase is constant.  Then project backward to a presumed approach speed of 70 mph (per the limit some distance from the south).   This will show that there was a mostly constant rate of speed increase from 70 to 105 over a distance of nearly two miles, more or less.

 

Now compare the retired GG1's to this.  They sometimes hauled the same trains as the accident train, that is 7 or 8 cars of the "tubular" type, built starting in 1971, IIRC.  These cars were designed for 120 mph (based on braking within the existing block lengths, which had been designed for 90 mph operations).  But in this service, the GG1's hauling them were restricted to 100 mph.  It is said that a single GG1 could accelerate such a train from a standstill to 100 mph in 60 seconds.

 

So the accident motor was accelerating, but not not as fast as it could have.  As for the engineer, being hit in the head by a grazing bullet is not ruled out IMHO.  I saw a very clear picture of that windshield.

 

I'd like to discuss centers of gravity again.  I have information that it is 5'-4-1/2" above top of tangent rail, for the 1971 tubular cars.  I have reason to believe that was also the c.g. of the GG1, but I can't find a written reliable confirmation of that.  Is there anyone here who has that information?

 

At any rate, the tubular cars should have been able to have rounded this 4-degree curve at well over 100 mph, so long as a wheel didn't climb the rail or a rail overturn, and the cars remained stretched.  As for a GG1, it would have tracked even better than the cars, if I am right about its c.g.

 

So the question remains, why did the 601 motor leave the track?  I don't see NTSB asking that question.  I believe I can demonstrate my comments even if the super-elevation is only 5".  Does anyone know what the present-day superelevation of Tracks 2 (NB) and 3 (SB) is?

 

I'd also like to discuss some expert opinion on the difficulty of making computer-control reliable in railroad operations...  and my collection of first-hand horror stories about foreign vendors of high-speed equipment.  These 600's had hardly a year's shakedown in the field.

 

--Frank  

The Amtrak "experts" know more than they are telling the public but there are legal and liability issues involved in this wreck. Nothing much has been said about the stability of these new engines at speed. Someone said that thy have a higher center of gravity than the GG1s. They were tested but you know how that goes. I read that they did say the event recorder indicated that the throttle was advanced to increase the speed.

This is for the new SEPTA motors which were to be part of the Amtrak order for the 600's.  I would assume the 600's had a very similar specification.

 

Cant Deficiency


The design cant deficiency shall be nine inches; revenue operations shall be conducted at a maximum of six inches cant deficiency. The Contractor shall provide analysis and test data indicating the location of the force vector resultant at 1" increments in levels of superelevation for operation up to 9 inches of cant.

 

Therefore, in the case that the static lean is at 9 inches of superelevation, the lightest wheel must have at least 60% of its static load remaining. In the dynamic case, the lightest wheel must have at least 10% of its static load remaining. (Any changes in these values as a result of the enactment of new regulations shall be the subject of design review.)

One should be able to figure the various limiting speeds directly from the above data.  But at the rate I find time for all this, someone here will probably figure it out long before I get to it.  At least I hope so.  Of course, c.g. (for comparison to PRR practices and GG1 capabilities) would need some assumptions' to be gotten from this data.

 

As to the 9" cant mentioned, I don't think there is yet anything as high as this lying around.  [The reason is that the resultant static lean could be incompatible with many existing track centers, which were very difficult to increase in most areas.  From experience I know this can become an issue when curvature is up at 4-degrees, if centers below the 13'-0" standard (ca 1935?) remained at electrification.]   Penn Central had a standards maximum of 6" (and also raised centers standard to 14'-0" which was not equivalent to having it); I think in congested areas subject to delays at times there wouldn't be more than 5".  But that's just IMO, but for the reasons mentioned.

 

Changes were made to some extent, but that may have been in areas south of NYC where the Acelas operate.  Possibly to get Metroliner speeds above 110 mph they had put compound spirals into compound curves (which PRR had never done); this was done about 1980, but I don't remember how extensive this was.

 

I do know that there are no short range plans to increase operational speeds in Maryland above 125 mph including Acela; I believe this effectively means between Washington and Trenton.  AFAIK the required 135 mph testing (for adequate braking, etc) is done over a selected area of track.

 

There often is a tendency to think that buying new equipment is the answer to all problems, and to forget that the relation of the infrastructure to the particular equipment also matters.  Infrastructure always seems to lag, or not be well understood.

 

--Frank M

As I was reading through my last post after sending it on, I suddenly realized, without needing to calculate anything, the reason for specifying performance at 9" of cant.  It is a way of saying that the center of gravity shall be below a certain height more or less... more or less because of the effect of swing hangers, and of body roll on springs.  I did not mention that the manufacturer/designer was to be sent a tape from the geometry car of actual conditions on a stretch of a particular line of track.  That would be either the West Trenton line or the Philadelphia-Harrisburg line.

 

This suggests to me that the instrumented road testing possibly was to be done by computer.  Cheaper that way.  That leaves me a bit uneasy.  What is the saying... "they know the cost of everything, and the value of nothing?"  The thing is, PRR learned some interesting things from their actual road tests for a new locomotive, leading up to the building of the 139-strong fleet of GG-1.  This was after the P-5, the motor intending to haul passenger trains over the new electrification, proved unequal to the task.

 

I had been wondering two things.  Why had 601 not rolled in leaving the track, but remained upright for the most part, and why had it gotten so far into the curve before leaving the track.  There seem to be only two possibilities: either a wheel climbed the outside rail,  or the rail turned over.  If the latter, were the pandrol clips in the concrete ties unequal to the task, or 601 too punishing to the rail?

 

Pennsy learned from its tests that there were various lateral oscillations (nosing) in  running gear of different arrangements.  It wasn't always clear why some were more severe and put higher lateral forces against the rail.  Pennsy did understand that lowering the center of gravity, which was easier with electrics (particularly DC), was desirable, but if it got too low, it was more difficult to keep lateral forces within acceptable limits.  The sway of the engine over track irregularities reduced such  forces, fairly obviously.  But why various combinations of wheel groups tracked from side to side with differing impacts was not at all obvious.  Even today there are awkward surprises (E-60, IIRC).

 

It is difficult to use a computer to test what is not well understood.  Pennsy's tests showed 4-6+6-4 (GG1 or 2-C+C-2) was exceptional in its tracking.  On the other hand, 2-8-2 (R-1 or 1-D-1), with the preferred larger drivers, could  outpull and equal in speed GG1, and was the finalist against GG1.  But it was hard on track, and never duplicated.  Likewise, the later (1938) 4-4+4-4 (DD2 or 1-B-B-1) using the larger drivers of R1 and the pilot trucks and shell of GG1,  was never geared for passenger speeds, and never duplicated either.

 

In the area of twin bogie electrics, B-B generally track better than C-C, although this is not well understood.   At the same time, the two-axle pilot truck on GG1 was thought to be a substantial factor in reducing side pressure from its leading group of 6 driving wheels, when on curve.

 

A couple of things in the record need correcting.  NTSB appears to have corrected one in their latest statement-- that the speed at derailment was 102 mph.  Second, there are two speed limits given in the 1972 PC employee timetable, that apply to this curve.  There is a speed limit of 50 mph over a larger area that includes the accident curve, which applies to all trains.  Then there is another table some pages on that lists in order those curves on which passenger trains must reduce speed (while on the curve), giving the reduced speed.  For this curve, that speed is 60 mph.  [More or less supporting my opinion that this curve, except for concrete ties, is little changed in over a generation.]

 

I won't argue that the more restrictive speed applies.  But it is misleading to say that entering the curve at 2.00 times the speed limit was the cause of the accident.  You could say that entering the curve at 1.70 times the speed limit due to curvature was the cause of the accident.  Even if this is not the whole story, it at least does not gratuitously overstate the problem caused by the curvature.  In this, I am concerned by the apparent lack of insight.

 

I would note that at this time (1972) both Metroliner powered and tubular unpowered equipment were in service; based on braking capability these had maximum revenue speeds of 125 and 120 mph respectively.  As noted, I cannot recall at this time whether the Metroliners had yet been permitted to operate over 110 mph.

 

Frank M   (Edited to correct chronology of DD2 and to add a parenthetical comment about the timetable speeds on the critical curve.)

Last edited by F Maguire
Originally Posted by Erik C Lindgren:
http://www.knoxnews.com/galler...-of-amtrak-train-188

Why is there a picture of a mangled F40-PH in 1980's Phase II paint in a gallery of images of the #188 incident? image

This business of reporting the news accurately and without judgement seems to have passed.

The caption with this photo states: "An Amtrak train involved in a 1996 wreck in Silver Spring, Maryland that caused 11 deaths and more than 20 injuries."

 

NTSB Press Conference tomorrow (Wednesday 6/11)

 

NTSB has announced in advance that they have determined whether or not the engineman was using his cell phone at the time, and that NTSB will make a statement in that regard tomorrow.  I have no other details

...

Meanwhile, I have to comment that the SEPTA cant specification, that I commented on last week, does not after all have much effect in defining the center of gravity of motor 601.  It does set a maximum height for c.g. a little lower, but it seems obvious that the c.g was at a substantially lower height than the requirement.  So the c.g. location remains unknown.

 

So I consulted Hay (I have a 2nd edition, 1953), and in Chapter 26 "Track Geometry" after Section 9 "Superelevation" [p 602] he quotes, in a brief Section 10 "Overturning" [p 604] from Wellington (1914, p271) as follows, among formulas for c.g. at 6, 7, and 8 feet above top of rail, "... the overturning speed would be... and for a center of gravity of 5.2 ft it would be 198.5/D^1/2."  [I verified this means 198.5 divided by the square root of the degree of curve.]

 

Thus per Wellington the overturning speed for this motor [obviously an electric] was 198.5/2 or 99.25 mph on a 4-degree curve.  Hay noted that Wellington considered superelevation to have no effect at this point as the springs would be fully compressed; Hay does not make his own position on this clear.

 

I assume Hay choose to include this because is probably from the NYC or New Haven predecessor of the GG1, and of the same 2-C+C-2 (4-6+6-4) wheel and frame arrangement.  Being a box cab, the cab would be lighter than the center cab in the GG1.  Thus the GG1 would have a slightly higher c.g; having a skirt height of 4'-4-1/2", I have good reason to believe that its c.g. is 12" higher, at the top of the concrete infill, or 5.37 ft above top of rail.

 

Based on my long acquaintance with the tendency of engineers to pick round numbers for their design goals, I'm going to say the GG1 was designed to have an overturning speed of 100 mph on a curve of 4-degrees.   Also, I know the same would be true of the cars (1971, but refurbished ca 2002) which had a reported c.g. also of 5.37 feet.  The question might be what is the safety margin on this goal.

 

A poster in another location correctly identified the cars, and stated that the superelevation on the Frankfort 4-degree curve is 5".  This data is always on the track charts, and I consider his statement reliable.  Also, with the springs having 2" inches of down travel and two of up travel, I'd consider 5" of s.e. available to the frames and a bit more than 3" to the cab and its equipment.  That the c.g. is effectively lowered 2-1/2" below the high rail by the 5" s.e. can be the safety margin.  As to lateral shift, there was almost no lateral play in the GG1, because it tracked so well.

 

The 5" cant, together with 5" unbalanced cant, does give a ride within the Amtrak comfort criteria, for the 60 mph curve limit in the older PC timetable for the limitation imposed by curve alone on comfort.  It is not clear to me whether this class of train (whose cars operated under the PC timetable at speeds up to 100 mph (elsewhere. obviously) when pulled by a GG1) was exempted by special order from the more general 50 mph area restriction, then or now.

 

[Perhaps NTSB will give some information on the 601 in this regard, as the rated overturning speed, and also some comment on the state of the concrete ties and the pandrol fasteners.  I've seen some pictures of severe rail cutting on concrete ties, and I know Amtrak had at least one stretch that had to be replaced in short order years ago. Some confirmation of what the speed limit actually was would be helpful.

F Maguire,

The ACS64 is a user specified(U.S. Govt.\Amtrak) variant of the Siemens mobility Vectron. I have attached a brochure to give you some possible basis for your calculations. I suppose you could find the order specification somewhere in government documents to be completely accurate with your calculations.

 

two things I see that would affect it's tracking are the unique truck (bogie) design with possible active dampening order and a wheel design that may or may not have been specified differently.

 

Also, with disc brakes the braking force would be more efficient and perhaps have an impact on changing the weight management by braking hard in a turn.

 

Siemens Mobility doesn't provide much on the specifics of the ACS64. It only touts Amtrak as a client.

The Vectron brochure is attached.

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Moonman,

 

Thank you for attaching the Vectron brochure.  It is much more detailed than the one I have for the US version in the Amtrak 600-series.  The US version is heavier of course, due to our requirements for substantially more strength in the carbody.

 

I did discover that center of gravity is still figured, even if not included in the commonly published information.  One of the acceptance tests uses it.  This test is for the lateral strength of of the engine truck.  The truck is to be tested for being able to withstand the lateral force against the rail that occurs when overturning impends.  This is obviously a calculation that depends on knowing the location of the center of gravity.  There is a lot of emphasis on the strength of the trucks.

 

Frank

 

 

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