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Originally Posted by jim pastorius:

Was the engineer impaired ?? Drugs? Alcohol? Texting?  The defense will be "Mechanical failure"  The engineer should go to jail unless it was mechanical-which I doubt. The big wreck in NY was a high speed derailment on a curve, too.

Though we don't yet know what exactly here, I listened to both the lead NTSB investigator on the scene, and to Peter Goelz, the former Managing Director of the National Transportation Safety Board, state on CNN that inward-facing cameras .... filming the engineer at work ... has been requested for many years to no avail.  Goelz stated that engineer groups (unions?) have been fighting it all along.

 This is a real tragedy and my heart goes out to the victims and their families.

 After looking at the aerial photos it appears the train derailed and slid across the ground with the engine traveling a good distance.  This is consistent with excess speed going into a curve. One of the cars is twisted like a pretzel and probably has a few more victims in it.

  Was this the first car behind the engine? What did it hit that caused so much damage?

Douglas

 

image

 

Originally Posted by EBT Jim:
Originally Posted by CTA:

It seems to me that areas of  severe track curvatures is of the highest priority for the  automatic train control system to be operational.

 

A very important Investigation Question is why was it not in place on this curve. ....

 

The NTSB lead investigator stated that the system was mandated to be in service here .... by the end of this year.

 

"The NTSB lead investigator stated that the system was mandated to be in service here .... by the end of this year." 

 

Wow, that is sad

So watched the 3 news programs.  Seems train was going 104 MPH.

This wreck is a poster person for PTC.  (sarcasm on) Heck PTC in control, engineman just slams throttle to run 8 and lets PTC autopilot take over. 100% safety, no fuss, no muss (sarcasm off).

News cast stated signals are pre WWII vintage, catenary is 1930 vintage that regularly fails, most engine are charitable labeled antiques etc.

And now our idiotic congress just cut funding from 1.6 billion to $1.4billion for whole Amtrak operation and on track (no pun intended) to cut it 20% next year. Of course its airlines that are squeezing Amtrak out via their congress stoolies. Its no wonder I don't vote in national elections. The outcome is whatever big business decrees, you and I can write letters to our congress until blue in the face and letters are just round filed (believe me I have written on issues and get nothing but form letters sent back)

I could rant but moderators would just delete my post so I will climb off my soapbox.

Originally Posted by Happy Pappy: 

Maybe just maybe this will be the one accident to bring about change. BNSF & UP have active speed control systems to prevent over-speed conditions. From what I understand their systems are on and working at all times. Maybe these should be mandated on all of Amtrak high traffic corridors?

I can't imagine how you came up with THAT. Of course all freight locomotives have an "overspeed" setting in the speedometer device, but that certainly does NOT preclude an Engineer from violating a speed restriction through a curve, a town, or a crossover.

Originally Posted by Mike W.:

Of course nothing has been blamed yet but I just don't see the engineer not paying attention and watching the speed.  There really is no way for the train to gain speed until well out of this area of curves and ancient interlockings.

 

WHAT????  Do you have any idea of the horsepower of that electric locomotive? I assume you have operated a lot of Amtrak trains in that area in order to state "There is really no way for a train to gain speed until well out of this area……." How do you explain then that the train was doing 106 MPH prior to the Engineer placing the brakes into emergency?

 

 The train barely was out of the 30th Street limits...past Zoo...and then this equally sharp junction.  

Originally Posted by Penn-Pacific:

I don't know, it's hard to tell from this surveillance camera how fast it was going @ the moment it derailed....

 

 

 

 

Noticed bright flashes of light. Wonder if its the catenary hitting the cars or another passenger train windows lights.

Also noticed in a few pictures there are tail lights and vestibule lights which I assume must be battery powered since engine separated from train.

And for better/worse at least those special Tightlock drawbars/couplers held the train together otherwise some cars might be further out in the fields.

Last edited by rrman
Originally Posted by rrman:
Originally Posted by Penn-Pacific:

I don't know, it's hard to tell from this surveillance camera how fast it was going @ the moment it derailed....

 

 

 

 

Noticed bright flashes of light. Wonder if its the catenary hitting the cars or another passenger train windows lights.

 

Most likely the catenary wires hitting ground, being "reset" at the substation, and then grounding again and again, until the main breakers finally stay tripped.

 

Also noticed in a few pictures there are tail lights and vestibule lights which I assume must be battery powered since engine separated from train.

And for better/worse at least those special Tightlock drawbars/couplers held the train together otherwise some cars might be further out in the fields.

 

Would be interesting to know if engine-man was a newbie to this line and/or made some "student" trips before making the run and forgot about this curve.  Or worst, was on extra board and called for this with just a few runs under his belt.

 

Just have to await the NTSB report in few years from now (imagine it will be a tome equal to War and Peace in size.)

This sounds just like the Metro-North derailment at Spuyten Duyvil...the only thing keeping trains safe at both locations were the engineer's knowledge of physical characteristics  (location and speed limit of the curve) and being cognizant of their location, since the signals at both locations were not equipped to enforce speed restrictions.

 

The NEC has ACSES, a version of PTC. But it had yet to be installed at this location.

 

---PCJ

Last edited by RailRide
Originally Posted by rrman:

Would be interesting to know if engine-man was a newbie to this line and/or made some "student" trips before making the run and forgot about this curve.  Or worst, was on extra board and called for this with just a few runs under his belt.

 

Just have to await the NTSB report in few years from now (imagine it will be a tome equal to War and Peace in size.)

The Engineer's name was already released and given on the CBS Evening News tonight; Mr. Brandon Bostian. He may NOT have been a "newbe".

Originally Posted by Ron Blume:
Originally Posted by Rocky Mountaineer:
CNN is now reporting that sources close to the investigation say the train may have been exceeding 100mph.  I can't imagine a train traveling at that speed in that area.  The only time I've seen those speeds is north of Princeton where there are miles of open straight-aways.  It's quite a site to see.  But in North Philly?  No way!  Trains I travelled were often crawling through those areas approaching/leaving north Philly.

I'm sure we'll hear more official details at tonight's NTSB press conference.

David

Get it straight...the speed of the track BEFORE the curve was 80 mph...engineer was supposed to slow to 50 at the START of curve...please temper what you see and hear on CNN!  ...  Ron B.(former engineman on the Northeast Corridor).

So what's there to "get straight", Ron?    We've now heard confirmation that the train was traveling in excess of 100 MPH.  105, 106, 107... take your pick.  I heard 106 from the NTSB spokesperson, so let's go with that.  Even though the speed limit on the approaching track was 80MPH (pending conditions), the train was still over that limit upon entering the curve, and would have needed to begin its breaking down to 50 WELL BEFORE entering the curve (if you understand the laws of physics).  So lots of questions still to be answered, and knowing the train was traveling 106 and emergency breaking took it down to 102 before the derailment only create a whole other set of questions that need to be answered over time. 

 

People lost their lives here, and many folks were injured.  And some have yet to be accounted for.  It's simply a pure miracle that so many folks walked away from this accident.  Let's at least be thankful of that too.  So do you think we can have a civil discussion here (as most folks have been doing), while keeping these unfortunate victims in our thoughts and prayers?  Thank you, sir. 

 

David

Last edited by Rocky Mountaineer
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by Happy Pappy: 

Maybe just maybe this will be the one accident to bring about change. BNSF & UP have active speed control systems to prevent over-speed conditions. From what I understand their systems are on and working at all times. Maybe these should be mandated on all of Amtrak high traffic corridors?

I can't imagine how you came up with THAT. Of course all freight locomotives have an "overspeed" setting in the speedometer device, but that certainly does NOT preclude an Engineer from violating a speed restriction through a curve, a town, or a crossover.

Active speed control systems are outside of the purvue of the engineer.  It is part of the Positive Train Control system.  It can override engineer setting on locomotive operations.  Amtrak has begun the process of implementation and they were planned for this section of the route but cuts from the Amtrak budget, by the US Congress, has delayed their implementation.

Last edited by Wood
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by mike.caruso:

106 mph into a curve rated for 50 mph???  Yeow!  

Don't forget that the track speed PRIOR to the curve was only 80MPH.

And honestly folks, I'm surprised the speed limit is that high.  I can't recall the Metroliners I rode ever traveling at that speed in that general area.  Seriously.  Perhaps it was the time of day or the rail traffic of the moment, but I honestly recall those few miles in North Philly as being an area where I'd just gaze out and look in amazement at all the graffiti on buildings in near or complete disrepair.  It made that much of an impression on me back in those years.

 

David

Yeah no doubt the train was speeding...I meant mentally there is too much going on for the engineer to have fallen asleep or increased speed on a long stretch of straight track only to forget about a curve....unless it was deliberate or engine malfunction.
 
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by Mike W.:

Of course nothing has been blamed yet but I just don't see the engineer not paying attention and watching the speed.  There really is no way for the train to gain speed until well out of this area of curves and ancient interlockings.

 

WHAT????  Do you have any idea of the horsepower of that electric locomotive? I assume you have operated a lot of Amtrak trains in that area in order to state "There is really no way for a train to gain speed until well out of this area……." How do you explain then that the train was doing 106 MPH prior to the Engineer placing the brakes into emergency?

 

 The train barely was out of the 30th Street limits...past Zoo...and then this equally sharp junction.  

 

Last edited by Mike W.

I just have two comments:

  1. The Engineer should come clean.  They have the evidence.
  2. Unless you have first-hand knowledge of the operation of a passenger train, and of working in train or engine service, you ought not to be so authoritative with your opinion about how this could have happened.  Your past posts have shown that you are naive about real railroading.  You know who you are.
Last edited by Number 90

I will say, just in case the above post was referring to me.  I never said I had any knowledge on operations of trains other than what is gained from external discussion.  Plus not everyone who is a railfan has worked for a railroad so questions for those in the know is a normal aspect of the hobby.

I just said, as have others, its not an area where trains travel fast...compared to other places on the NEC.  If there was a stretch of 100+ track and a 50MPH curve is thrown in the mix I can see this but that wasn't the case.  Will be interesting to see what they find out.  

Last edited by Mike W.
Originally Posted by Mike W.:

I will say, just in case the above post was referring to me.  I never said I had any knowledge on operations of trains other than what is gained from external discussion.  Plus not everyone who is a railfan has worked for a railroad so questions for those in the know is a normal aspect of the hobby.

I just said, as have others, its not an area where trains travel fast...compared to other places on the NEC.  If there was a stretch of 100+ track and a 50MPH curve is thrown in the mix I can see this but that wasn't the case.  Will be interesting to see what they find out.  

All well and good, but that is NOT what you stated above. You typed/stated, "There is really no way for the train to gain speed until well out of this area of curves and ancient interlockings." That was a "closed end statement" made without knowledge of the facts.

Fair enough...sorry that didn't come out the way I intended...but I was referring to the slow speeds through the area.  Of course I realize a regional Amtrak such as this has the means to go as fast as the track will allow with ease, up to the governed loco speed, not overly sensitive to curves or grades.  I don't know what speed the Metro North train was going that jumped the curve but I think it was doing track speed prior to the curve but didn't slow down to the curves speed limit.  In this case, it appears, the train was going well above any nearby speed limit.  But of course I have no idea as to why.  
 
Also, I think the NEC trains only have the 1 engineer. 
 
It would be nice to see them invest the money to smooth out many of the ancient turns and junctions in the NEC.  Some still use turnouts with the open frogs (not sure of the official name).  I recall rocking around on a slow Acela as a NS freight train passed us on a center track. 
 
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by Mike W.:

I will say, just in case the above post was referring to me.  I never said I had any knowledge on operations of trains other than what is gained from external discussion.  Plus not everyone who is a railfan has worked for a railroad so questions for those in the know is a normal aspect of the hobby.

I just said, as have others, its not an area where trains travel fast...compared to other places on the NEC.  If there was a stretch of 100+ track and a 50MPH curve is thrown in the mix I can see this but that wasn't the case.  Will be interesting to see what they find out.  

All well and good, but that is NOT what you stated above. You typed/stated, "There is really no way for the train to gain speed until well out of this area of curves and ancient interlockings." That was a "closed end statement" made without knowledge of the facts.

 

Last edited by Mike W.
Originally Posted by Wood:
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by Happy Pappy: 

Maybe just maybe this will be the one accident to bring about change. BNSF & UP have active speed control systems to prevent over-speed conditions. From what I understand their systems are on and working at all times. Maybe these should be mandated on all of Amtrak high traffic corridors?

I can't imagine how you came up with THAT. Of course all freight locomotives have an "overspeed" setting in the speedometer device, but that certainly does NOT preclude an Engineer from violating a speed restriction through a curve, a town, or a crossover.

Active speed control systems are outside of the purvue of the engineer.  It is part of the Positive Train Control system.  It can override engineer setting on locomotive operations.  Amtrak has begun the process of implementation and they were planned for this section of the route but cuts from the Amtrak budget, by the US Congress, has delayed their implementation.

Wood,

You actually read what I was saying, Thank you!  Your thoughtful, considerate answer shows your actual knowledge of the industry. Once again allow me to say, Thank you!

I can't imagine the heartache families are going thru right now over the injured and deceased family members. My thoughts and prayers go out for all of them.

 

Unfortunately the suffering will go on long after the media finds something else to sensationalize and the politicians stop looking to assign blame to anyone but themselves.

 

Surviving something as horrific as this is not something any the survivors will ever get over.  The first responders will certainly be left with their own issues To deal with.  And regardless of the final cause determination, the train crew will carry this tragedy with them for the rest of their lives. 

 

i wish the speculation about engineer human error would cease until the investigation is completed and the cause determined. . I have no doubt that both the engineer and his family are going a terrible time as well. 

 

Whatever the cause, i hope it is something that can be identified and failproof solutions put in place as a result to insure this can't happens again.

 

Ed

We have to be careful in concluding that the limit for this type of train was actually 50 on this curve.  I recall that when the Metroliner's were introduced, into what had been a 90-mph railroad (passenger speeds for GG-1s and heritage cars) with of course reductions on some curves, the Metro's ran at 105 initially, later at 110, in service.  On some curves, you would see them restricted to 105 and some 100.  But due to stronger brakes and increased clearance at the upper corners, they had generally a 10 mph advantage over the older trains.  I assume there may have been special instructions for their operation.  I believe they became locomotive-hauled, thus similar to this train except that a newly introduced engine is involved.

 

The speed limit in the stretch approaching the accident curve was mentioned as being 80 mph.  In PC days, the limits for Class A passenger trains (heritage, IIRC) was timetabled there not at 80, but at 70.  And then at the accident curve 50, as we see it referred to today.  I'm going to suggest that the ability of this train through this area may have been equal moving at 60, to that of a heritage train moving at 50.  This would be in regard to excessive sway.

 

Then, of course, in the NEC, new equipment was always tested for safe operation at a speed 10 miles greater than that intended for scheduled operation.  For safe operation, not just that it would go that fast.  So this curve could have been safely traversed at 60 by heritage equipment.  I'd guess that the accident equipment should have been able to traverse it safely at 70.

 

I'm not advocating a breaking of the rules.  But I thought if would be useful to show what the question is from an engineering standpoint.  You have a series of speeds--  50- 70- 100-- each of which is 40 percent greater that the next lower.  It's fairly clear that if the engineman fails to make a one-step speed reduction for a curve, it possibly can still be taken safely by the train.

 

The significance of the 40% steps in speed is that each such step doubles the overturning moment due to centrifugal force (1.41 x 1.41 = 2).  But the speeds for passenger trains on curves are set by what will not upset the comfort of the passengers as they walk down the aisles of the cars.  You can arbitrarily set that at a little below half the overturning speed.  Of course, these cars are probably more resistant to overturning than their engines.  And all engines are not created equal.

 

So, from an engineering standpoint, the question is, why did this train derail even  at 100 miles an hour.  Well, of course, the speed was 105, and when the brakes were applied with the train engine and a good part of the cars already in the curve, buff forces developed at the couplers and likely ran in against the engine.

 

This was an attitude that I learned from the civil engineering department guys of the Pennsylvania.  One time there had been a bad electrical accident down in the District, where we were discussing some problems at a proposed overgrade bridge.  They asked, why was a boxcar with a ladder ever left parked under wire, and why hadn't the disconnect switch been operated to isolate the siding overhead.

 

It was then that I learned that it was the Pennsylvania RR that had attacked this problem by having every ladder removed from every last boxcar in America.  Well, almost.  Did you ever notice that GG-1's had ladders, but they were inside the carbody.  They also had a concrete floor one-foot thick, down where all that weight-- 90,000 pounds-- would do more good than just increase traction.

 

--Frank

Looking at all the various news articles on this it does get old reading posts from those who say the US Rail infrastructure is crumbling.  Yet we have the envy of the world with our freight system...for the most part all of your major mainlines are very well maintained and have embraced the best tech that was available at a given point in time.  The TGV in France runs on some slow traditional ROW as well...shared with conventional trains.  

Originally Posted by MichRR714:

I graduated high school with the woman who is missing in the wreck.  Prayers for all those affected by this tragedy.

...

Sadly, Rachel Jacobs is now being listed as one of the 7 fatalities.  Names for 5 of the 7 fatalities have been released as of this morning (Thursday).

 

This is the really tough part of these accidents.  The human element makes it all very real, and the randomness of why some folks walk away, some are injured and recover, and others are called from this life much too soon will always be a mystery.

 

In a few days or so, the news media will move on to other headline stories.  That's the nature of "the news".  But the lives of all these families are changed forever.  Let's hope and pray that they have the strength to cope through a transition that's never easy.

 

David   

 

 

Positive Train Control (PTC) is coming and in my opinion, is over due. Click on the link below and you can read a very simplistic review of PTC which could have potentially prevented this accident.  It is very complex, their are multiple competing choices of ways to accomplish the task, we do not have enough trained personnel to install it and we don't have the money to install.

 

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyli...-way-station-n358656

 

Typically for us, privately owned freightliners have developed PTC on significant portions of their lines.  The passengerliners, which are semiprivate and/or government supported are behind the curve primarily due to a shortage of funding.  The Metroliner after it's horrible accident two years ago is now entirely protected by PTC at this point.  

Last edited by Wood

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