Amtrak Derailment Outside Philadelphia

I have witnessed what a terrible accident does to person(s) like this. I worked in the medical field. I'm sure Amtrak will insure he has proper support from mental health.

I agree. Electro-mechanical overspeed technology for many industries has been around long enough that some of it is in museums. A governor is a governor is a governor.

 

Looks like the NYT has picked up on the "struck by object" angle, and mentions the apparently limited train control signalling in the area.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin...us-amtrak-crash.html

 

FBI called into case

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nt...k-before-derailment/

If a projectile of some sort struck the front of the engine with enough force to break the glass(they are tough) and distract the engine man enough to cause him to lose control of the train, you would think he would have told the investigators that. Strange. Until proven other wise, I think the engineer is at fault. Wonder how much this wreck will cost ??  $50  million ??

Jim, if you've ever endured great trauma, you might find your mind blanks out the event.

I have endured great trauma more than once and remember them all. Is 5 minutes from death good enough ??  By the grace of God and a great woman Dr I survived bleeding to death.  My son was one month old and turning blue from choking and I saved him. Like I said, when you are at the controls of something like a locomotive with over 200 lives at stake you have to rise to the occasion.

Concussions add their own level of complications when it comes to remembering what happened during a disaster. It's not even unusual for somebody to carry out a well-trained response, but have no memory of the event afterward (quarterbacks who get rid of the ball as they're hit, NASCAR drivers who calmly get out of the car and walk to the ambulance because it's protocol, but can't remember the wreck later...)

 

I'm not claiming I know what happened, but if it does turn out that the engineer was already injured before the wreck, no one should be surprised.

I am not as wonderful as you, Jim, so I will wait until all the facts are in before acquiescing in such a criticism of the engineer

Latest I just read is quoting Sumwalt (spelling?) from the NTSB as saying the engineer, Bostian, as answering questions about the territory with very good knowledge of the route and various points of signals, speed limits etc.

 

The reports are also saying he has made this trip hundreds of times.

 

Further, there are other reports from a third train where a passenger on the Acela reported, and has been confirmed, something hit the window by his seat that left a circular crack.   This incident happened right outside the 30th street station 20 minutes prior to this crash.

 

 

This is becoming a huge tangled web that is going to take some time to unravel with thorough investigation

Well stated RJR!!!  I'm in agreement with you!

I see Mayor Nutter also felt compelled to opine that the engineer had been reckless.  I guess he feels he is more qualified (or clairvoyant) than the NTSB.

 

Perhaps Mayor Nutter should be more concerned about why three trains passing through the city where he is responsible for maintaining law and order (or at least some semblance of civilization) were hit with "projectiles."

I don't see anything unusual about the engineer getting a lawyer right away or saying he doesn't remember a thing about the accident.

 

I saw enough trauma in Vietnam to know for certain that for some people their minds just shutdown at the moment of "impact" and they don't remember a thing somethings for days or even longer.  BTW - if you have ever been in a situation where a bullet is headed your way, or a brick, or some other projectile suddenly hitting your windshield at high speed you might be very surprised at your reaction.  It is not like in the movies.

 

As for getting a lawyer.  That doesn't strike me as suspicious.  If what he said about not remembering a thing is true (and no reason to believe otherwise) I would be surprised if it was not a close friend or family member who advised him to get a lawyer just for his own protection. 

 

If I was in his shoes, and I didn't remember any details of a fatal accident I would hope I'd be mentally alert enough to not leave my fate soley in the hands of Amtak or the federal NTRB without counsel watching out that I am not being made the scapegoat.  After all, it's not like any  government entity has ever been used before to advance or support a political agenda.

 

I would hope everyone just gives this man the benefit of the doubt until such time as the facts warrant him being held responsibe for the accident. After all his life and family matter just as much as everyone else's.

 

Ed

 

 

 

 

Lets not forget all the staples he got in his head to close a wound. Obviously it bounced off something, and he may possibly never remember.

This latest twist in the story about projectiles is relatively new information for the media, and I expect we're hearing different "nuances" of it right now as details develop.  The NTSB will get it right and put all the pieces together.  But as we've come to see, these nuances and inaccuracies as relayed by the media are not unusual when "news is breaking". 

 

BTW, for those not familiar with this geography... 30th St Station is the main Philadelphia station-stop for Amtrak NE Corridor trains.  About 7 miles north/east on the Amtrak mainline is the North Philadelphia station... adjacent to a not-so-nice neighborhood (I'm being kind).  This station is not a regular station-stop for most Amtrak NE Corridor trains.  Then another 3-4 miles north/east is the Frankford curve where the derailment occurred.   (See map below.)  The mainline to Trenton (approx 25 miles away to the Northeast) is very much straight-away, which accounts for the higher speed limits we've heard reported between Frankford Junction and Trenton.

 

 

As I've alluded to in earlier posts, traveling through North Philly via train (when I did it regularly) was like traveling through a war zone... lots of abandoned, dilapidated buildings along the RR right-of-way.  Sad, but that's my recollection of it.  It doesn't surprise me in the least to hear of objects being propelled toward trains in this area nowadays. 

 

David

 

 

Unless the projectile entered the cab (bullet perhaps or whatever it was)  and hit him he's still in big trouble. He apparently had a warning of what might happen.  The front window looks like it's still mostly  intact.  Lots of crews get things thrown at them (rocks)  every now and then.... bad timing in this case perhaps? Would Amtrak have it's own police that might have been called in the  previous reporting?

 

Different topic. Do freight trains also use this corridor?

Gregg unless you've been in a cab that's been "rocked" or shot at, even with a warning over the radio, you have no idea what or when it's coming. The windows are designed to stay in place, that's part of the FRA regulation. When the hits start coming, you hit the floor and wait for them to stop, and you sure don't stop the train right in the middle of it.  

I hear you. I've been there a few times. ( not shot at though ) 

Now I have to ask:  why, be it brick or bullet, are the trains being attacked?  It's starting to sound like the prelude to the archetypical Wild West train robbery!

We have failed in educating our underclass, and now they act mindlessly. Opinion.  At least they are not driven by God, as are our more organized enemies.

It's been going on for as long as I can remember. I've been on the receiving end a few times myself. It scares the friggin h!ll out of you when it happens.

 

Bob

I was riding in a CSX office car a number of years ago when we were "rocked" while passing through a bad neighborhood in New Orleans.  It most definitely startles the heck out of you.

Curt

 

We can speculate all we want, but only the investigation teams will make the final determination.

 

Rusty

There is a difference between being witness to a traumatic incident, or even having body trauma, and having direct head trauma, which the engineer did. People can go into shock from something they witnessed, and it is very, very common for people who experience trauma like rape or abuse as a child to blank it out, not remember it, it does happen, especially with kids. However, when you have head trauma, like concussions or brain/head injuries, it is not uncommon to have amnesia, to varying levels. I have seen guys get their clock cleaned in a football game, continue playing, and then later on literally don't remember anything that happened that day, they don't even remember playing a game that day. I used to be on a rescue squad, saw more than a bit of head trauma, and often people were responsive, but didn't even remember getting into the car, wondering why and here they were. If the brain swells after a concussion, it is definitely not uncommon for people to have memory loss. The engine went off by itself at high speed, and just the deceleration of the engine from 100mph could cause issues, so not surprising if the guy has memory loss.

 

As to why someone would throw things at trains, that isn't a big surprise. In bad areas like surrounding the train tracks in this case, things like this happen all the time, it is  sad reality. Someone gets angry at something, and sprays a park full of people with bullets, young kids go on the rooves of buildings and throw crap off it, overpasses on highways going through some areas have high fences with netting to stop people from dropping rocks and bricks on the vehicles traveling below. It isn't necessarily even deliberately out to hurt someone, it is often simply mindless "having fun", consequences simply don't come into mind. Heck, we constantly on here have reports of people jumping in front of crossing gates and such, just as mindless and stupid and ignoring consequences, and often what we are talking about is done by young kids who basically have even less control than the adults who run crossing gates do.....not excusing it, just trying to say why.

 

One question I have, if anyone is familiar with the engine in question, how is that controlled? Do they have some sort of throttle level, do they have a slide switch, or is it controlled by a control panel where speed is controlled by up/down arrows or perhaps sliding a visual indication (think of the volume control on you tube, for example, a 'slider' in UI terms)? If the engineer was startled, how hard would it be for him to accidentally set the speed up? 

 

My other thought would be could the engineer have panicked, assume somehow someone was shooting at the train (in that area, not unlikely, Philadelphia has one of the highest crime rates in the country, and the area you are talking about is one of the worst in the country), and without thinking tried to 'outrun' the bad area? I know, it is just speculation, but given that at this point it is mostly speculation, other than some basic facts like the train crashed at 100mph on a curve, it looks likely that it was hit by something, we don't have much else. I don't agree with those who seem to be saying we shouldn't speculate on this, shouldn't discuss it, let NTSB do their job, that is kind of silly since what we say on this forum has exactly zero impact on the investigation, the NTSB is going to investigate and draw their conclusions, the FBI will investigate, the legal system will decide whether to be involved or not, people will sue probably, but what we do on here will have zero impact on any of that. No one is going to take what I write, or anyone else writes,seriously, and discussing what happened is, after all, what a forum is for. I do agree that those judging the engineer and saying he is automatically at fault, period, is a bit over the top, as it would be to say the engineer isn't guilty, must have been defective equipment or because some idiot threw or shot at the train, since we are just speculating.

 

I also will add that those who make statements like "The NTSB will determine the facts, and that will tell us the truth" may not be that factual, either. The NTSB doesn't operate in a vacuum, they have political pressures on them, too, and it isn't exactly unknown for them to take the path of least resistance, blaming human error. Back in the early 1970's, the DC10, which had been rushed into production when Boeing introduced the 747, had serious problems with engines falling off and issues with cracks in the fusilage, and there were several accidents and at last one major plane crash (outside Paris in the early 70's, a classmate of mine in grade school died in that). Initially the NTSB blamed human error and airline maintenance, McDonnel Douglas back then was a big deal, and they had a lot of political influence, and it took years before the NTSB to finally make the determination that the DC10 had major flaws in its design (the big one being how the engine and pylon attached it to the fuselage) and books on the subject have pretty much all concluded the NTSB was under a lot of pressure not to blame the manufacturer for bad designs. It is a lot easier to blame human error, you can tell by reactions on this forum and elsewhere the first thing people think of is 'the engineer was at fault', and it is often the path of least resistance to blame human error, not to mention can be politically expedient (for example, if in this case it looked like let's say bad track was a potential cause, it would be politically inconvenient to those saying Amtrak didn't lack funding if it was track that wasn't maintained properly, especially if it turned out that they were deferring maintenance to save money; that is hypothetical example of why the politics would pressure the NTSB to pin it on the engineer, not about this particular case).

Positive Train Control - (PTC) • Does it work?

This video will talk about fiction and facts as the reporter sees it..... Remember - Opinion, from the press.

Published May 16th., 2015

I would expect a complete investigation into the engineer's medical and psychological background, as well as a complete analysis of the train's braking system along with the engine's control and braking apparatus. The track and signaling, as well as communications prior to the mishap, all will be looked into. External events such as projectiles of any sort (bullets, rocks, etc.) should also be considered.

 

Like LAMING stated above, I believe this fellow's future career as a passenger engineer may be in serious jeopardy due to his head injury and the resultant amnesia.

 

Prior to this tragedy, he appeared to be a responsible and dependable employee, and now he must live with the consequences of his actions or lack of the same!

 

Very sad for him and all concerned!

All the facts are not in.

 

Theory.

Stones and other objects are commonly thrown in this area. I believe that maybe stones or another object hit the cab, the engineer may have panicked and opened up the throttle to egress the area forgetting where he was when the turn appeared it was to late, he hit the emergency brake but it was to late.     A guess.

I'm sorry I do not believe the projectile thing would have been a cause for this accident.  I have had a large rock or something kicked up by a truck that was in front of me while driving.  It cracked my windshield very badly with a spider web crack.  It startled the living Heck out of me.  But, I did not loose control of the vehicle or speed up to 80 or 90 mph.  It only took my mind a fraction of a second to realize what happened.

 

I'm sure if this is what happened it would not have been sooooo traumatic that he shoved the throttle to full speed and left it there for a whole minute.  And if he was responsible he would have already begun to throttle back for the upcoming curve.

 

My take on this whole thing is based on the things he stated on the internet about the PTC and safety.  Why did this happen on a part of trackage where there was no positive train control?  I think he did it to get attention as to what can happen without ptc.  I think he did it to make a point.  An "I'll teach them" attitude. Then at the last moment he tried to back out of it by applying the brakes.  Too late.  Yep, I think he is guilty.

 

Rick

Everything is speculation at this point. Obviously, the FBI and NTSB will conduct their tests and it is those that will matter

 

Let us suppose that a projectile of some composition struck the window of the locomotive. The conductor seems to back this up. The energy of the impact has to go somewhere. Some of the energy from the impact is in the form of crater and a radial pattern around the impact site. 

 

Some of the energy will be transferred to inside the cab of the locomotive in the form of a compression wave. Having experienced compression waves, I know that the senses of sight and hearing can be compromised for a few seconds after impact. In the form of pure speculation, it could be a compression wave emanating off the glass impact site was directed at the engineer. The compression wave could have (1) thrown his head backwards and (2) pushed him back in the seat. Once the wave passed, spring action in the seat would have pushed him forward.

 

Keep in mind that it was the compression wave that incinerated North and South America, shook the entire planet, and threw up the molten debris from the Chicxulub impact.

 

It is all speculation at this point thus it is probably best to hold off on the guillotine until a full investigation is complete. 

This from a NY Times article 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05...tner=rss&emc=rss

 

Karl Edler, a retired engineer who drove the line hundreds of times, said an impact could help explain the wreck. When a train pulls out of the North Philadelphia station, the engineer usually twists the throttle “up to notch eight, which is engineer-speak for wide open” he said.

It is about three miles to the curve where Amtrak 188 derailed.

“Usually you just leave the throttle open until you get up to 80 miles per hour, then put on the brake for the curve,” he said. “Seems reasonable that something happened right about that time he would have started slowing down that kept him from taking the throttle off. He was startled by the impact or whatever. And by the time he realized it, it was too late.”

And now Federal officials are ordering Amtrak to make safety improvements pronto.  Course on your thin $1.4B dime, no money from uncle (hes too busy with airlines and highways slush fund political money.)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/amtra...or/story?id=31092833

The comparison seems like you are making a crater out of a mole hole. 

Or he was saying that compression waves can do real damage.  A small compression wave in a small confined space could conceivably have had an effect?

I agree with RICKC in his first paragraph .

As far as this "compression" nonsense it is simply that nonsense. Baloney on toast. I also don't believe that he "does not remember'. About ten years breaking rocks should help with his memory.

 

By the way the idiot who rolled the Metro North train will not be charged. More nonsense about a "sleep problem".

Tommy. He is saying he doesn't remember because this gives him time to talk to his lawyer.

The American way is innocent until proven guilty.  To go to prison for ten years from a grossly negligent act, or criminal negligence, is probably a stretch.  

 

I think it is not a good idea to convict this guy before the investigation is complete.  As of right now, nobody knows exactly what happened in the minute before derailment.

 

I still say they should go back to copilots.

Certainly easy to tell the people who think Spain was responsible for sinking the Maine.

Chicxulub was an actual space-rock-plowing-into-earth event (leaving a 93-mile-wide crater to boot).

 

Maybe you were thinking of the Tunguska Event? The object in that event exploded without hitting the surface, yet still managed to flatten 80 million trees in a 830 square mile area.

 

---PCJ

I would like to say I remember those events with clarity, except the compression wave must have knocked me out cold.