Art Deco vs Streamlined Modern

Dan -

What you and your terrific video refer to as Streamlined Modern I have long known as Depression Modern thanks to a very informative book of the same title by Martin Greif. At the risk of annoying Forum members with long memories, I'd like to repeat part of my post on this subject from about fifteen years ago. 

During the 1930s, Depression Modern styling swept the nation. Often incorrectly called "Art Deco" after the largely decorative Parisian-chic form of the preceding two decades (think Chrysler Building, a product of the 1920s and New York's last Art Deco skyscraper), these new and distinctly American industrial and architectural designs (think Empire State Building),  changed how almost everything from pencil sharpeners to office buildings to airplanes and trains looked.  Old materials, such as glass and brick, combined with new ones - stainless steel, brushed aluminum, plexiglass - in never before seen structural and decorative designs, usually emphasizing horizontal lines, sweeping curves, and "streamstyling." To get the picture, compare a 1930 Packard Brewster with a 1936 Chrysler Airflow,  or the standard heavyweight passenger train of the early '30s, dominant since the early years of the century, with the lightweight streamliners that were turning heads nationwide by the end of the decade. 

My main interest in trains is concentrated in this era, and especially in the streamlined signature trains of the roads which showcased the work of the nation's premier industrial designers, Henry Dreyfus, Raymond Loewy, and Otto Kuhler.  I've spent a bit of time and money assembling reasonably good representations of trains such as the Mercury, Twentieth Century Limited, Empire State Express, etc, but I've also abandoned the dream of that mega-layout necessary to let these trains stretch their legs. My problem thus has become creating a suitable showcase for them. I wanted to capture the look and feel of the Depression Modern era in materials that made sense. The result was the conversion of a small (12' x 12') room to showcase the trains.

I'll spare today's readers all the details, but these pictures taken while this New York Central display was still being developed will give you the general idea. All the trains and artwork shown here are not Art Deco. They are Depression (or Streamlined) Modern.

 It should be obvious that I consider well-executed model trains an art form. Although the display emphasizes the name trains that once paraded through the Hudson Valley, neither Washington Irving, who quit his new home at Tarrytown because the the then recently established Hudson River Railroad "spoiled" his view, nor the fabled Frederick Church of the Hudson River School would be at ease here. On the other hand, Leslie Ragan and, I'd like to think, Fred and Ginger would.

O, to have been rich in the thirties ...

And on that thought I'll again retire from the Forum and return this thread to its rightful owner. 

- Mike

Mike

An interesting perspective, which other than the moniker of Depression Modern I largely agree with. Using your two buildings as the demarcation point,  In Neal bascomb's book about the race between the two to make the taller building, The Chrysler building had the "lead" and Walter P Chrysler was very proud of it until the Empire State building went taller.  But the Chrysler building did not loose out on tenants because of the 200 foot difference..but rather because the Chrysler buildings styling (Art Deco with heavy overtones of Chrysler grilles and hood ornaments) was "dated".

Too bad you don't do extend your display south a bit and do Pennsy..A GG1 pulled Congressional would artistically go well in your impressive display.

Your display racks are art.  The style of those trains, and others - art.

I have just a tad of heartburn with the concept of mass produced, lithographed model trains as true art.  They are copies of true art.  That's just an opinion, please.

I believe that well executed hand-built models are indeed art.  My Williams Dreyfuss Hudson, even though it is seriously modified with hand-machined drivers and embossed firebox sheets, is still just a model.  On the other hand, I have a number of models that started out in raw brass, and consider them art.

But there was a guy in the midwest who elevated model building to really high art - he even hand-formed truck side frames, one at a time.  I will think of his name in a minute, and try to get permission to post a photo.

Well, John, at one time I had another display – all PRR – which among other examples included an S1, one of each of the three T1 variants, two GG1s and, yes, a set of Congressional cars, all of which perfectly illustrated Depression Modern design as I understand it. I rather like the “moniker,” as you call it, since the clean, unornamented International architectural style and industrial streamlining were reactions to the gloom of the Great Depression and mostly developed in the ‘30s. To my mind, it fits. 

For the record, I’ve been in great awe and not just a little envy of your superlative PRR modeling since as far back as your 3 rail days. Your posts and published articles are always inspirational and a pleasure to read. 

Thanks for your kind comments above. 

- Mike

Mike, thank you for that excellent narrative.  And yes, to have had money during the first few decades of the twentieth century and have been interested in all things train related, would be the ultimate reward for those of us of a certain age.  

The execution of your design to reality, of the shelving, exemplifies the very art sitting on them.

Thank you, too, Dan, for starting this thread. I do appreciate your comments, but  a young guy like me doesn't understand what you mean by ". . . a certain age.  "  Since you guys seem to like this display, here are the other two walls. This is the Hudson Hutch -

And these are Mo' Betta' Mohawks, among others -

And a closing shot of the dining halls of the infrequently seen Lionel-Smithsonian 1938 20th Century Limited, a product of a mid-western outfit, Fine Art Models -

It's an interesting place for those of the NYC persuasion.

Cheers,

- Mike

Thanks Mike!

MIKE!  So good to see you posting again!

Fascinating topic!  Very interesting video and I very much enjoyed learning the differences between art deco and depression/streamlined modern.   Now that I know what to look for, the differences are very apparent even if they are easily confusing to the uninitiated.  

I have always loved passenger trains in particular and Mike's above postings just make me drool in envy (lust?).  

I like streamlined trains  and automobiles of the late 30's/early 40's, especially NYC's Dreyfuss and ESE and Pennsy's Loewy T-1. They had a graceful beauty much like the '40 Lincoln Continental and the '41 Caddy Series Sixty-Two Convertible. Unfortately there were some designs like the NYC's Mercury and the UP's Forty-Niner, like Chrysler's Airflow that missed the boat. While streanlining is nice, I truly love unshrouded steam engines with all the elements exposed, a true expression of form follows function. A highly detailed O Scale two rail brass steam engine, to me, is a work of art.

Awesome video.  Now I know I've been using the wrong terms for decades! 

Jon

Mike Casatelli posted:

Thank you, too, Dan, for starting this thread. I do appreciate your comments, but  a young guy like me doesn't understand what you mean by ". . . a certain age.  "  Since you guys seem to like this display, here are the other two walls. This is the Hudson Hutch -

 

And these are Mo' Betta' Mohawks, among others -

 

And a closing shot of the dining halls of the infrequently seen Lionel-Smithsonian 1938 20th Century Limited, a product of a mid-western outfit, Fine Art Models -

It's an interesting place for those of the NYC persuasion.

Cheers,

- Mike

Think of Frank Sinatra's song, It Was A Very Good Year .  The fourth verse should explain everything.....LOL

"But now the days are short, I'm in the autumn of the year
And now I think of my life as vintage wine from fine old kegs
From the brim to the dregs, and it poured sweet and clear
It was a very good year"

Interesting thread. Art Deco and Streamline Modern didn’t have the same impact in the U.K., although it was much used by the architects developing the rapidly growing residential areas and associated Metropolitan Line of North-West London (then sometimes referred to as “Metroland”). 

The French used it widely and it came to be known as “Paquebot” (Ocean Liner) style, a term sometimes used in English to refer to a style of housing development characterised by sweeping, rounded window frames and balconies with flat, cantilevered roofs. The Metropolitan Line on the London Underground built some rather pleasing Art Deco stations, most of which survive, although in increasingly decrepit condition. 

After WW2 it came to be associated with the “Le Corbusier” style of housing, a misnomer based on Mediterranean style buildings unsuited to the generally cool, damp British climate, and later associated in the popular mind with “Swedish style”. 

There were streamlined trains and locomotives, notably the LMS “Duchess” class and LNER A4 Pacific type, with its articulated “Silver Link” train, but the English weren’t excited by modernity by that stage...

This is a very enjoyable discussion!.  As another example of Streamlined Depression Modern, I offer the 1939 Graham Superchaged

Which I submit, without any "expert" backing was the inspiration behind the PRR T1 and the Baldwin Sharks.  You can actually buy a 1/43 model of the above. Its pricey, and  its is a bit young for my era, but for the sake of art I had to get one.  And now that I see Mike's gorgeous curved glass shelves, I realized I didn't go that far for the sake of art!.

t

Steve -

Thanks for your welcome back. Don't worry yourself though, I won't be posting much. I just got drawn in by Dan's intriguing title and terrific video. Obviously this is a subject near and dear to my heart. That said, I'm glad to hear from you and I'll be in touch off line.

Dan -

Your comments above are right on, but Frank who!?

Rocker -

I spent a great decade in Britain, but except for a few prewar hotels and a couple of those Underground stations you mentioned in London I can't say I saw very much in the way of either Art Deco or Depression Modern styling. Interestingly, the old BBC (ITV?) TV series based on Agatha Christies's Poirot and set in the '30s has absolutely splendid opening credits depicting elements of both styles. The London apartment block Poirot lived in also had a definite Depression Modern look to it. 

I can't say I saw much of it during my several excursions to the Continent, so I found your information above particularly enlightening.  Oddly enough, New Zealand, where I spent some time in an earlier life, has ample architectural examples of both styles including a couple of towns that look like they were designed and built almost at the height of the era. Unfortunately, their names escape me at the moment. 

John,

What grand example you offer with that Graham - must have been built under license by Baldwin.

The curved glass shelves were born out of necessity. My daughter got married and left me a 12 foot square room into which I wanted to put 20 foot long trains displayed end to end. This was the only way I could do it. Once I had that curved glass, the rest followed almost automatically. There's more to the display and room today than is shown in these pix which were taken back in 2004. That said, I'd trade it all for a corner of your layout. Any corner.

Thanks to all of you who posted above. It's been interesting.

- Mike

No matter what you call it, Art Deco or Depression, I will always think the "41 Empire State Express  was the best looking of all the complete steam streamliners.

Ed

Agreed!

And it's great to have you opining on this thread, Ed.

- Mike

Interesting Video!

For anyone interested in Streamline Design who is in the Chicago area, The Chicago History Museum has a temporary exhibit that ends April 12, 2020 all about aspects of Streamline Design relating mainly to the Chicago area and designers/companies in Chicago.  It has been running since late 2018.  Here are a few photos of the exhibit.

Note my Zephyr on display

The reason why my Zephyr is on display

NWL

Ok so what do you classify the Plymouth CR-4 as? Art Deco or streamlined? I never considered it streamlined but kinda Art Deco 

The Chrysler Airflow was more Art Deco inspired, but streamlined for the first year, then modified to be more Streamline Moderne, but still didn't sell well. A design far ahead of its time, like the Avanti, which still looks good, some 60 years later!

CSX FAN -

I can see how the overbite on the cab ends of the CR-4 give this engine's profile a zig-zag look that might be taken for Art Deco, but I don't really think this look fits in either of the styles discussed here. This engine didn't appear until 1960, well after each of these design eras had run their respective courses. That said, it's interesting in its own right. Let' call it Neo-Industrial Chic. 

Or maybe not.

- Mike

Mike Casatelli posted:

Dan -

What you and your terrific video refer to as Streamlined Modern I have long known as Depression Modern thanks to a very informative book of the same title by Martin Greif. At the risk of annoying Forum members with long memories, I'd like to repeat part of my post on this subject from about fifteen years ago. 

During the 1930s, Depression Modern styling swept the nation. Often incorrectly called "Art Deco" after the largely decorative Parisian-chic form of the preceding two decades (think Chrysler Building, a product of the 1920s and New York's last Art Deco skyscraper), these new and distinctly American industrial and architectural designs (think Empire State Building),  changed how almost everything from pencil sharpeners to office buildings to airplanes and trains looked.  Old materials, such as glass and brick, combined with new ones - stainless steel, brushed aluminum, plexiglass - in never before seen structural and decorative designs, usually emphasizing horizontal lines, sweeping curves, and "streamstyling." To get the picture, compare a 1930 Packard Brewster with a 1936 Chrysler Airflow,  or the standard heavyweight passenger train of the early '30s, dominant since the early years of the century, with the lightweight streamliners that were turning heads nationwide by the end of the decade. 

My main interest in trains is concentrated in this era, and especially in the streamlined signature trains of the roads which showcased the work of the nation's premier industrial designers, Henry Dreyfus, Raymond Loewy, and Otto Kuhler.  I've spent a bit of time and money assembling reasonably good representations of trains such as the Mercury, Twentieth Century Limited, Empire State Express, etc, but I've also abandoned the dream of that mega-layout necessary to let these trains stretch their legs. My problem thus has become creating a suitable showcase for them. I wanted to capture the look and feel of the Depression Modern era in materials that made sense. The result was the conversion of a small (12' x 12') room to showcase the trains.

I'll spare today's readers all the details, but these pictures taken while this New York Central display was still being developed will give you the general idea. All the trains and artwork shown here are not Art Deco. They are Depression (or Streamlined) Modern.

 

 It should be obvious that I consider well-executed model trains an art form. Although the display emphasizes the name trains that once paraded through the Hudson Valley, neither Washington Irving, who quit his new home at Tarrytown because the the then recently established Hudson River Railroad "spoiled" his view, nor the fabled Frederick Church of the Hudson River School would be at ease here. On the other hand, Leslie Ragan and, I'd like to think, Fred and Ginger would.

O, to have been rich in the thirties ...

And on that thought I'll again retire from the Forum and returnthis thread to its rightful owner. 

- Mike

 

As another Mike that loves the art deco/streamline moderne era I am very impressed with your display. I am in the beginning stages of building my final layout and my goal is to have a metropolis with nothing but art deco/ streamline moderne buildings. I have a small collection of books on the subject and save pictures when I see them.

 Thank you for showing your display, it is an inspiration.

A wonderful and enlightening thread. You made my Saturday.

Thank you all!

JohnJr

Guitarmike – 

Usually what I inspire in others is on the downside, so I do appreciate your comments above and I really wish you well with the development of that layout you envision. That’s pretty much what I’ve wanted to do for many years now. I always envisioned a layout centered on a model of Cleveland Union Terminal, arguably the ultimate example of Railroad Moderne architecture, as a backdrop for my collection of Lionel’s pre-war 072 streamliners, along with some of the more accurate contemporary models of the forward looking trains of that era. Unfortunately, while my model railroading plans always work perfectly between my ears, I’ve always lacked the room and, to be honest, the requisite talent.

 Should you need some good sources of appropriate architectural ideas, I’d recommend  of Martin Grief’s 1975 title, Depression Modern, The Thirties Style In America, and David Stravitz’s 2004 title, New York, Empire City 1920-1945 which covers both eras well.

 If you do undertake the task, please keep us posted as you progress.

JohnJr –

Trust me, you made mine!

Cheers,

 - Mike

Somehow I missed this thread last year, but I am glad to have found it, if for nothing else, than to see @Mike Casatelli's extraordinary collection and display.  Bravo Mike!

I find the discussion more interesting than the video, which seems to muddy the waters between classic art deco and streamline moderne by trying to parse too fine a line. I would disagree with some of the labels in the video and had to listen to it with the volume off. ( Miami techno)

Art deco was originally a French movement, born in the 1910s from Art Nouveau and quite decorative. It was an aesthetic for the applied arts, including furniture. Back in the 1980s, when art deco was having a revival, I was a NYC custom cabinetmaker making art deco inspired furniture for wealthy NYers. I looked to Ruhlmann as the pinnacle of this aesthetic and Wendell Castle as the best contemporary example. Here is a classic Ruhlmann.

To bring trains into the discussion, the interiors of the Orient Express would be art deco, although many would not think so, thinking streamline modern was the only art deco look.

I have always thought of moderne or streamline moderne as a uniquely American subset or off-shoot of art deco, not an entirely different species. This seems to be born out in the video, intentional or not. There was definitely an influence from the fine art world. Cubism begat futurism which influenced design. The applied arts almost always follow the avant garde artists (or did). Economical use of materials and new materials were a factor too. Eventually we got the international school and the cool Danish moderne look of the 50s and 60s.

To return to trains, I think you can find art deco influences in the classic tinplate Lionels of the late 20s and early thirties. This is especially true of the accessories.

@Nation Wide Lines posted

Note my Zephyr on display

The reason why my Zephyr is on display

NWL

This is a fascinating tidbit, NWL. How did you manage to acquire this with the original plaque?

Ralph Budd was a formidable and pioneering railroad man, and as president of the Burlington, he hired Edward Budd of the Budd company to build the Zephyr. In an odd twist, they didn't know each other and were only distantly related. Both rode on the inaugural record setting run of the Zephyr from Denver to Chicago in 1934.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Budd

WOW, Will -

Now that's an explanation! Nice to see you back in the game.

- Mike

@Will posted:

This is a fascinating tidbit, NWL. How did you manage to acquire this with the original plaque?

Ralph Budd was a formidable and pioneering railroad man, and as president of the Burlington, he hired Edward Budd of the Budd company to build the Zephyr. In an odd twist, they didn't know each other and were only distantly related. Both rode on the inaugural record setting run of the Zephyr from Denver to Chicago in 1934.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Budd

Will,

Oddly, this toy came up on ebay in late 2014 or early 2015 and I bought it.  There was some provenance with it that indicated the item was in a Chicago area American Flyer collector's collection up until he passed away in the early 1990s.  After that, the item was auctioned c. 1996 and then its location was unknown to me until it showed up on ebay.

I actually just got the item back from the museum in the last month, as the closing of the exhibit was delayed twice, once due to bad weather affecting the exhibit (water leak closed exhibit for 3 months) and the pandemic (closed museum for a couple of months).

NWL

Regardless what you label it, it is all wonderful and beautiful. I'd love to have been able to experience this era in all its glory.

Will, I wouldn't be to quick to leave the French out of the Streamline Moderne movement, having seen some fairly early examples of their designs.

Here are some photos of our local Theatre, opened in 1928 with an art deco interior, remodeled in 1934 with Streamline Moderne finiishes.

This is the main lobby mural, 1934 version, but the trim above it and the gold columns on either side are from the 1928 finish. The original mural (sill behind this one) is more of a Greek/Roman motif.  As far as we know, the railing is original.

Then there is the lobby itself, done in the 1934 finish, we did find the original 1928 details under this, but way to complex to replicate, and not from the "period of greatest influence" as this finish lasted through WWII

And the ceiling of the entrance has been restored to the 1928 Art Deco. Here's a photo of Beate Bruhl, restorer applying stencils from the original patterns found under many layers of paint (as were all the other features, including the mural).

Until this thread, I hadn't realized how great a comparison example this restoration has created.

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

Will,

Oddly, this toy came up on ebay in late 2014 or early 2015 and I bought it.  There was some provenance with it that indicated the item was in a Chicago area American Flyer collector's collection up until he passed away in the early 1990s.  After that, the item was auctioned c. 1996 and then its location was unknown to me until it showed up on ebay.

I actually just got the item back from the museum in the last month, as the closing of the exhibit was delayed twice, once due to bad weather affecting the exhibit (water leak closed exhibit for 3 months) and the pandemic (closed museum for a couple of months).

NWL

Too bad they closed the exhibit, would have been cool to expand it.  With their Coal Mine exhibit closed and the capacity restrictions I know of many families who have cancelled plans to go there in the hope 2022 will be better.

@BobbyD posted:

Too bad they closed the exhibit, would have been cool to expand it.  With their Coal Mine exhibit closed and the capacity restrictions I know of many families who have cancelled plans to go there in the hope 2022 will be better.

Wrong museum.  This was a temporary exhibit at the Chicago History Museum that was originally supposed to close in December 2019 or January 202 and was not at the Museum of Science and Industry.

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

Wrong museum.  This was a temporary exhibit at the Chicago History Museum that was originally supposed to close in December 2019 or January 202 and was not at the Museum of Science and Industry.

Nation wide is correct on the museum, but just to add a little more information to the discussion, the Museum of Science and Industry (MSI) has opened the Zephyer Exhibit that was closed for remodelding, then closed again due to Covid issues.

So... here are a few shots from the second day the museum was reopened. It was very nice to have the museum almost to ourselves, however, this would be a hardly sustainable business with only a few visitors each day.

The remolded display shows off the Zephyr much better on the fireman side. The visitor ramp was removed so now you can see the complete train without interference. The engineer side still has the ADA ramp and is little changed. Also gone are the "Art Deco" displays that lined the wall which is now a multimedia presentation. I'm not sure, but some of the items that use to be at MSI look very similar to the ones shown in the images of the Chicago History Museum.

Lastly, for the real observant Zephyr nut. The museum corrected an issue with the Zephyr during the remodel, which is clearly seen in one of the images below.

Charlie

Tangent:

Dreyfuss was responsible for the styling of the John Deere tractor line, first in the late '30s and then, through the firm, on through the '60s at least.

Lowey was responsible for the styling of the International Farmalls through much of the same period.

I'd post pics, but . . . .

Funny how this thread came back just as I started to re-read the book The Steam Liners:  Streamlined Steam Locomotives and the American Passenger Train by Kevin J. Holland.

Something I didn't notice the first time I read this is where the term Art Deco came from.  It came from a display in Paris in 1925 called the Exposition des Arts Decoratifs et Industriels.

Stuart

@Former Member posted:

Will, I wouldn't be to quick to leave the French out of the Streamline Moderne movement, having seen some fairly early examples of their designs.

Here are some photos of our local Theatre, opened in 1928 with an art deco interior, remodeled in 1934 with Streamline Moderne finishes.

This is the main lobby mural, 1934 version, but the trim above it and the gold columns on either side are from the 1928 finish. The original mural (sill behind this one) is more of a Greek/Roman motif.  As far as we know, the railing is original.

Then there is the lobby itself, done in the 1934 finish, we did find the original 1928 details under this, but way to complex to replicate, and not from the "period of greatest influence" as this finish lasted through WWII

And the ceiling of the entrance has been restored to the 1928 Art Deco. Here's a photo of Beate Bruhl, restorer applying stencils from the original patterns found under many layers of paint (as were all the other features, including the mural).

Until this thread, I hadn't realized how great a comparison example this restoration has created.

Usually I take the photos out for a reply, but I left them here for reference. Where is this theatre, David? It's an interesting mishmash of styles to my eye. The railing, I would call classic art deco- at least in my book. The blue risers on the stairs are a bit jarring. I'm not sure what to call what Beate is working on. More arts and crafts to me than deco or moderne. Maybe because she is not finished?

Were you involved in the. restoration? It is always great to see these old theatres brought back. On a side note, I have a good friend named David Dewey. An artist.

Charlie:

What is the corrected item on the Pioneer Zephyr ?  Thanks so much for posting your PZ photos.

This is a great thread !!!

I've been collecting streamlined steam locomotives in the last several years, and have built up a collection of a couple of dozen of them. (I've also got deco jewelry, ashtrays, and other material, for instance, items from the 1939 NY World's Fair.) Here are photos of some of my engines, including one from Ace Trains, which I bought from the British dealer:

Also...