Attendance at York

"Way down" doesn't convey much information as it can mean something different to each of us. What are the numbers and how do they compare with prior years?

The downward trend is not a new thing and there are plenty of reasons why. But lets start with facts.

Thursday seemed a bit lower attendance than last April.  What was surprising was Friday.  Usually Friday is jammed packed with people coming in for a single day.  Usually the member halls are a slow go.  That was not so, you could move about all the halls as you usually do on Thursday.  Friday seemed about half the people as last April.  I am interested to see the attendance numbers.  Even so, had a great time with my son and J Daddy as it was his 1st York, and pretty sure not his last.

Greg

Thursday seemed a bit slower in the Orange hall, but Friday was very busy at our booth all day. I did notice a lot of badges showing guest on them. The slow start on Thursday didn't hurt us as this York meet we set a record number of sales��

Earlier in the week, the two firehalls were filled with dealers, but not as much traffic.  The "Billy Budd" motel did not fill every dealer table and seemed to see little traffic.  The "Days Inn" parking lot of dealers was not there!!  Inside, the Wyndham/Sheraton/Holiday Inn? had empty tables, and the lot outside had what I thought was a lot of empty space.  To ME, it seemed the least dealer, and shopper, attended York of any I have been to.  Quite a come-down at some of the off-grounds shows as compared to years past, when sellers, then including myself,  filled every parkiing lot space.  Them was the days.....

(this not to say there were not tons of trains there!)

Attendance at York has been steadily dropping for years. It is now the smallest show we do in terms of attendance.

This was York number 72 for me.  I also noticed the numbers down.   I had a guy tell me he observed less people.  I asked him how many York shows he has been at and he stated two.  I am sure Eastern division will post numbers.

From a previous post: Click Here for Details and Source 

April 2013          12929

April 2012          13403

October 2011     13608

April 2011          13521

October 2010     13648

April 2010          13749

"It looks like a 6% decline over the past 3 years, with this April being about 3.5% less than a year ago April 2012."

I am not a member of the TCA, and I would like to go to the York meet, and I found out yesterday it was open to non-members. This information should have been out weeks ago.  

Are there any other train shows that would compare size wise to York? Or that are becoming more popular?

mwax516 posted:

Are there any other train shows that would compare size wise to York? Or that are becoming more popular?

I don't think any other non public train show comes close to the size of York. 

So there are other "Mini-meets" going on in York, that have nothing to do with the Fairgrounds meet ?

Could be many reasons. Money could be a issue. It is with me which is why I'm waiting for October. I will have saved up a decent amount of money by then. People are passing away, too old to travel or unhappy with the TCA or unhappy with the show. Some people may have just stopped running trains and sold all their stuff.

Dan Padova posted:

So there are other "Mini-meets" going on in York, that have nothing to do with the Fairgrounds meet ?

The "bandit meets".  Varying days of the week (one may actually run same time as York, but I think most are earlier in the week), and probably 3-4 locations (maybe more?) still going.

I think it's covered in Clem's York Primer.  There have been references/links to the most recent of that doc in a few threads before the meet that just occurred.  Try a search here or on Google for the April 2016 version.

-Dave

A Eastern division who volunteers told me that on Thursday that attendance was down about 1,000 from last April.  That did not include walk up's. 

This was my 62nd straight York and attendance has been slipping year over year for sometime now.

I would not be surprised if the larger vendors like Lionel, MTH and some others cut they're attendance to once a year. 

I would imagine that for a number of our fellow hobbyists, layouts do  fill up and collections do get bloated (excessively large or wealthy.) As a result, perhaps, the thrill of the hunt diminishes, and thus attendance lessens? Then, there is the demographics " factor". Overall, something does seem to be happening, IMHO.

Even among these several post-York threads, I sense a lessening in enthusiasm and volume of comments.
FrankM.

P.S. Of course, my viewpoint could be totally subjective, given my little "cottage-industry" corner in our hobby with my Layout Refinements. Even my super-best customers have reached points where their layouts have totally filled-up.

Did you have a good time?

Did you learn anything?

Did you meet anyone interesting?

Did you make a new friend?

Did you meet & greet all 13,700 people 6 years ago, or all 12,900 people three years ago? If not, what's the difference of 800 people?

Gerry

PS  Yes, it seemed like the traffic was light. So what?

As of 8AM Saturday there were 10,400 registered. That included 3-400 walks ups on Friday. The total did not include any more walk ups on Saturday. 

As for Bandits, The Wyndham  (Holidome) only had about 1/3rd of the vendors in the Parking lot as last October. I thought Billy Budd had about the same number of dealers which is to say, not many, but quality was way up with three vendors inside and out with a large quantity of scale items.

Despite the size of the bandits, there were still dozens of hard to find items at reasonable prices. The combined number of tables at the bandits is still more than most local meets even though they are no longer even close to what they once were.

Pete

Had my usual great time at York but with attendance dropping maybe it's time to go back to Friday and Saturday only as this would save vendors and attendees one nights motel costs. Another thought is maybe York should be only once a year to keep it more financially affordable for those on fixed income who only go once a year.

I am not a member of the TCA, and I would like to go to the York meet, and I found out yesterday it was open to non-members. This information should have been out weeks ago.  

The subject has been discussed at length here for at least six months. The show is not open to the public. Non-members can attend the show once as a guest. There are people right at the registration area who will sponsor anyone who asks as a guest. It's a work around.

Lenny J posted:

Had my usual great time at York but with attendance dropping maybe it's time to go back to Friday and Saturday only as this would save vendors and attendees one nights motel costs. Another thought is maybe York should be only once a year to keep it more financially affordable for those on fixed income who only go once a year.

I agree that the Eastern Division should go back to the Friday/Saturday schedule.

Would also like to see the return of the Friday night auction, that was always fun.

Could it be that internet suppliers have eaten into the attendance of train meets everywhere ?   Shopping on-line is almost a no-brainer when it comes to making comparisons on prices, it's all right there in front of you in a matter of minutes. And it gets shipped right to your door.  There are no tolls, entry fees, gas, motel, etc costs to bear.  

On the other side of the coin, it is nice to meet people face to face and maybe gain new friends at train meets.  

mwax516 posted:

Are there any other train shows that would compare size wise to York? Or that are becoming more popular?

Yes, but no where near "size-wise".  Public shows are heavily advertised, and draw families "out for the day". But there is a big difference between how many show up vs how many buy. The World's Greatest Hobby Show in Oaks,PA drew over 40,000 over 2 days. Some Greenberg shows draw 12,000. It is fair to say that the vast majority of TCA York meet attenders  are "buyers".

87 Yorks for me and it has gone up and now down. Thursday was dead but Friday was busy. The packed days are gone. I expect we will see more halls closed over the years ahead.

Dan Padova posted:

Could it be that internet suppliers have eaten into the attendance of train meets everywhere ?   Shopping on-line is almost a no-brainer when it comes to making comparisons on prices, it's all right there in front of you in a matter of minutes. And it gets shipped right to your door.  There are no tolls, entry fees, gas, motel, etc costs to bear.  

On the other side of the coin, it is nice to meet people face to face and maybe gain new friends at train meets.  

IMO, you have made two very pertinent points, each with its own ramifications, when added to the overall equation, both in the short-run and the long-run, Dan.

FrankM.

Charlienassau posted:

87 Yorks for me and it has gone up and now down. Thursday was dead but Friday was busy. The packed days are gone. I expect we will see more halls closed over the years ahead.

I would bet if trends continue you will see only one York a year.  More likely the Spring show will go bye bye, say within 10 years.  If MTH and Lionel pull out it will happen even sooner.

Dan Padova posted:

Could it be that internet suppliers have eaten into the attendance of train meets everywhere ?   Shopping on-line is almost a no-brainer when it comes to making comparisons on prices, it's all right there in front of you in a matter of minutes. And it gets shipped right to your door.  There are no tolls, entry fees, gas, motel, etc costs to bear.  

...

Absolutely a factor.  How many "sales" do we see here on the forum by dealers -- not to mention great stuff being offered on the for-sale board by forum members -- YEAR-ROUND?

And then there's the whole component of big-ticket stuff folks have on pre-order that's due to arrive -- and be paid for -- later in the year.  That's gotta cut into the splurging that folks may have done at York in years gone by also.  There's only so many dollars to be spent.

Nonetheless, none of what we've mentioned factors into our need to socialize and experience events "in person".  The internet is quick and convenient, but it also depersonalizes the whole process of shopping in most cases.

David

Clearly less people there on Thursday.....Friday was busy. I  believe the large amount of PostWar in "runner condition" at great prices after dealing is a sign of times.....The show will change over time.....no use crying over what used to be.....We just have to make it great for ourselves........It is still a fabulous experience and I had a blast visiting with my buds and buying/looking at  trains....

Kudos to the Eastern Division for a job well done!

BTW....have missed York only twice since April 83.

Peter

I think attendance was down based on the traffic factor. Like others I had no problem moving through any of the halls. Friday morning at the 9AM opening the parking lot was only half full.  After seeing the same overpriced PW stuff over and over it gets a little bland. Some of those sellers are trying to live in the 70s, buyers are not going to pay those prices today. The bright spot is seeing old acquaintances again.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Dan Padova posted:

Could it be that internet suppliers have eaten into the attendance of train meets everywhere ?   Shopping on-line is almost a no-brainer when it comes to making comparisons on prices, it's all right there in front of you in a matter of minutes. And it gets shipped right to your door.  There are no tolls, entry fees, gas, motel, etc costs to bear.  

...

Absolutely a factor.  How many "sales" do we see here on the forum by dealers -- not to mention great stuff being offered on the for-sale board by forum members -- YEAR-ROUND?

And then there's the whole component of big-ticket stuff folks have on pre-order that's due to arrive -- and be paid for -- later in the year.  That's gotta cut into the splurging that folks may have done at York in years gone by also.  There's only so many dollars to be spent.

Nonetheless, none of what we've mentioned factors into our need to socialize and experience events "in person".  The internet is quick and convenient, but it also depersonalizes the whole process of shopping in most cases.

David

I would have to agree too, though I will not buy big ticket items on the internet. I want to see it before the money comes out my pocket. This is why I wait for shows or drive to the nearest train shop which is a 100 mile round trip in most cases. It also helps when you have a club member who is a independent Lionel dealer that can order trains and accessories for you at a lower cost.

gmorlitz posted:

Did you have a good time?

Did you learn anything?

Did you meet anyone interesting?

Did you make a new friend?

Did you meet & greet all 13,700 people 6 years ago, or all 12,900 people three years ago? If not, what's the difference of 800 people?

Gerry

PS  Yes, it seemed like the traffic was light. So what?

 

 

I agree wholeheartedly!

Peter

TrainHead posted:

It was way down and I want to know why?

There are many reasons for this and we have discussed this many times:

The demographics of those that buy the trains is changing.  (less disposable income, retirement, relocation downsizing, health, end of life)          

Many collectors may be nearing the saturation point . When you collect and build a layout for 30+ years, the requirements become less.

The meet is expensive to attend. When you figure in lodging, food, transportation admission cost/membership, misc expenses, you exceed the $500 mark just to get in the door. It didn't help that the TCA dues went up 40% two years ago.

The times are changing but the meet remains exclusionary.   TCA members and one time guests  are still the rule. In the year 2016 you can't be successful running a business like that.  If anyone wants to show up at the gate, you've got to take their money.  It is important to support the vendors by opening the gate to all. The exhibitors/vendors spend big bucks to go there to sell and they don't care what club people are in.  If the vendors numbers go down, the show goes with it.  I ask you, what kind of business can succeed by choosing it customers?  

We had a great meet, almost a record sales. Saturday was a wipeout as usual. I always generate a huge amount of additional sales after the show only because customers did not know what color, size, or type of bridge or train shed they needed. I brought two 29 inch sheds to the show and sold 6 of them.

jim r

TCA members and one time guests  are still the rule. In the year 2016 you can't be successful running a business like that.

The privilege of attending the York meet more than once is one of the few tangible benefits of belonging to the TCA. Many would say it's the most important one. You cannot be successful running a business when you give away your merchandise / services for free.

First Timer here, and having a relief in the large crowds was great. Great weather maybe a factor too. It snowed there last weekend and the weekend of the show was beautiful weather.

My feet took  a pounding and if I had to stand or walk any longer, I probably would have missed allot of the good deals.

The only concern with lighter crowds are sellers and manufactures may opt not to come back in October.

Great Time.

And if you missed it, plan on going in the future, it is such an O gauge rush. I really enjoyed talking to fellow OGR members. I met and talked to many manufactures/ sponsors and was able to share with them ideas that I felt would be a great business case for future model railroaders.

J Daddy posted:

First Timer here, and having a relief in the large crowds was great...

The only concern with lighter crowds aresellers and manufactures may opt not to come back in October.

IMO, real insight and an intelligent hypothesis.

Somebody previously posted, "So what?" to the questions and theories about attendance decline. There's his answer - that's the What  to his "So?"  IMunHO.

Ok, guys. I'll let the cat out of the bag. Last October, I got my chops busted for taking a couple of vacation days to attend York. The statement "you aren't going back to Pennsylvania again this year, ARE YOU???" has been uttered enough this year for me to get the message.

Word got out that I wasn't going to be there, and oops, there 'ya go, low and behold, a dump in the attendance numbers.

"A Legend in my own mind".....

Gilly@N&W posted:

Ok, guys. I'll let the cat out of the bag. Last October, I got my chops busted for taking a couple of vacation days to attend York. The statement "you aren't going back to Pennsylvania again this year, ARE YOU???" has been uttered enough this year for me to get the message.

Word got out that I wasn't going to be there, and oops, there 'ya go, low and behold, a dump in the attendance numbers.

"A Legend in my own mind".....

Hope you can find a new job... if my employer said that, I would be looking!

J Daddy posted:

Hope you can find a new job... if my employer said that, I would be looking!

Naah. I've got the golden handcuffs on, and they know it. Too close to retirement to start over.

The humorous part of the whole deal was a Sr Manager giving me 15 minutes to get my tail into work. Dead silence when I told him that I might be able to get to my car in 15 minutes.

I was very disappointed that you had to pay to get in, ( just like a movie theater, or a museum, National Parks, Tollways, Subways, etc ).   And I was surprised that the table holders were charging money for their trains and merchandise.  You also had to pay for any food that you received and ate.

As a result, I am definitely not going back to the May, June, July, August, or September TCA York shows.  I'm sure that the attendance at those shows will continue to decline so much, that it wouldn't be worth going to anyway.  The Eastern Div of TCA will probably cancel those shows after only getting 10,000 plus people at the April 2016 show.

However, if the Eastern Div of TCA is still in business six months from now and they have another York show sometime in October, I will probably give it another shot.

From my point of view this York (my 3rd as a vendor) was better than the previous ones.

We sold a lot and we make a lot new friends and project partners.

At the end always we listened that wasn't very good, but the next season are everyone will be there again.

based on the myth I was little concerned for this trip because every time April is "the end of the  train season" and IMO was a blast.

I can't complaint. the experience overall was great!

Andre.