I am not a board member so I don't think its my place to discuss specifics. You might want to contact one or more of the manufacturers to get the details.
Pete
I still think it comes down to advertising.
We finally worked through the tax/public issue (after 6 pages), and have realized that isn't the answer. I would also feel safe in saying that York is for "people in the know". If you are into O gauge trains, you will find out about York. But how does the TCA make itself more appealing to the potential new members?
In reading on their site about the "benefits of membership" the main things that jump out as a true benefit are free admission to the museum, and access to the meets. The other categories listed, HQ news, Train Collector Quarterly, etc. is all information that can be found on the internet. If they stopped printing and mailing those items, it may free up some funds for advertising.
A joint venture with the manufacturers/dealers that come to the show? If the TCA makes the flyers highlighting the manufacturers, then asks them to send them out to their dealers to advertise, it works for both parties. Doing this digitally would only have the "local hobby shop" print out a couple of flyers to display in the store. I know they wouldn't want to reduce the dues, but maybe going all digital would allow that.
Or why not make a "York Member" category? You don't get the online access, or the free museum pass, but for a reduced price (25$ ?) you get the member access to York, after your first time going as a guest. Maybe charge the "York member" a $5 fee for spouse/family member instead of $2?
Maybe these ideas have already been discussed by the ED? Lets just hope it doesn't take another 6 pages before someone who knows about it, shares that with us.
Why don't we leave it the way it is. Just remember, this is a collectors meet first.
So now that we know that the situation is cut and dry with the tax situation, either leave the meet the way it is or all vendors would need to charge tax if York was open to the public, there is only one real question. How would the decrease in number of vendors compare to the increase attendance numbers if the meet was open to the public?
I can tell you from being on both the dealer side and the spectator side for various toy train and railroadiana shows, that the decision to change direction or modify a current show situation needs to be done before there is a major problem. I feel York is at that point right now.
eddie g posted:Why don't we leave it the way it is. Just remember, this is a collectors meet first.
NJCJOE posted:So now that we know that the situation is cut and dry with the tax situation... there is only one real question. How would the decrease in number of vendors compare to the increase attendance numbers if the meet was open to the public?
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I have absolutely no problem leaving York the way it is for now rather than "rocking the boat" unnecessarily. That being the case, this thread has expended a bunch of energy over nothing. Although well-intentioned, I think micro-managing and parsing PA tax law unearths more issues than it does provide a solution. Sometimes, it's best to enjoy what's there... and let it go.
For me, a decrease in the number of vendors at York would definitely make the "event" MUCH less attractive for my needs. That's definitely not a solution IMHO -- nor should we do ANYTHING that would encourage vendors to disappear. But I respect the fact that others here would be just as happy if there were no Orange or Purple Dealers Halls... those folks would still attend for the sake of visiting member halls and buying/trading trains in those halls. I would not, and I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way. Vendors are CRITICAL at a time when a sizeable segment of our community has evolved into more of an "operators culture" rather than a "pure collectors culture".
In order to better embrace the diversity of those in our community, the real answer might simply be found by making a concerted effort to increase the TCA's relevance as an organization for the greater O-Gauge and Standard Gauge communities within this hobby. The LCCA strikes me as an organization that has made GREAT strides generating a significant "buzz factor" around all their events. While I don't know the specifics relative to the LCCA's membership trend over the past few years, perhaps the TCA could glean a few techniques from the LCCA's approach to promote the hobby and stay relevant to model train enthusiasts in our corner of the world.
That may be the most constructive approach to all of this, and it avoids the confrontational/divisive nature of challenging whatever grandfathered tax law agreement that has been in place for DECADES with the EDTCA. Just sayin...
David
Eddie,
Why don't we leave it the way it is. Just remember, this is a collectors meet first.
Because collector's are the hobby's past and not its future.
TCA National and the manufacturers recognize that new blood (i.e., younger people) are required if the hobby is to exist at all, not to mention grow.
The ED owns the York Meet and has the absolute right to administer it as they, in their sole discretion, see fit. However, one would think that they also want the hobby to continue and grow after the current crop of collectors have moved on, whatever the reason for their departure.
If the York tax people are the issue, then they should be made part of the solution, not simply written off as the problem. The TCA brings a lot of money to York, outside of model train purchases, that generates tax revenue (food, lodging, gasoline, etc.). The thought of moving York to a more friendly venue, with more and better hotels and transportation options, may be a lot of work, however, it's a good lever to use when negotiating with the county tax people.
Traditions are nice, however, they rarely allow for change. Maybe it's really time for change.
Just my 2 cents...
cw, no ttos does not , but they wanted more buyers,sellers, but tca overhead, I see that as a complete oversite not to let q public in, to off set overhead, and to keep membership dues down, and make it more affordable for all,,,
It's funny how things change when money is added to the equation.
York was started as a meet with trading being the primary mode of items switching hands. At some point that changed to selling. Once that happened, those doing the selling decided to provide input on how the meet was run - in order to make more money!
The ED-TCA is private, not for profit organization. They run the meet as they see fit - simple as that. You either attend or don't. Comparing it to other organizations who hold similar events whose primary goal is to make money is a waste of time.
I surmise that those vendors who should decide to leave would soon be replaced by others who would be glad to take their place. We've had a few chime in on this thread about the profitability of York. If vendors no longer wish to take part of the event I'm sure another vendor will (even if that vendor does not exist at the present time). If a vendor isn't making money than perhaps the meet contains a glut of vendors and contraction is the appropriate action.
I think a lot of folks are making the assumption the primary goal of York is something other than which is intended. Perhaps the ED-TCA is perfectly fine with York returning to it's roots.
-Greg
This has been tap-danced around in a number of prior posts, so please let me play devil's advocate... Let us say, for arguments sake that the tax issue goes away for whatever reason - do you honestly think that opening the meet to the public will bring in that many additional visitors??? Do you think that there are that many additional train enthusiasts within a reasonable distance from York who do not already attend who would consider making a day (or two) trip? The "larger" shows which have been mentioned seem to all take place nearer to bigger population centers from which to draw an audience - York is kind of out in left field. In addition, from my limited experience, the larger shows seem to be on weekends only. While this may be more conducive to families attending, there is something to be said IMO for being able to attend on a weekday (being retired, I find places tend to be less crowded on weekdays).
Clearly, there is no simple answer to this issue. For for what it's worth, I think David hit on a great starting point - I would like to see the TCA/ED engage in more outreach. Talk up the benefits of the meet - there is something for just about everyone... individual sellers, major retailers, minor retailers, manufacturers - something for whatever phase of the hobby you are in 
eddie g posted:Why don't we leave it the way it is.
Hope you're feeling better, Eddie!
Re leaving York format alone...
Part of me shares your sentiment. It's that comfortable 'old shoe' that feels just right every time we get into it.
But the pragmatist in me says that the concerns voiced here define a patient in need of some remediation....to survive. Maybe the survival tipping point is beyond my tenure on earth, but I'm living a similar situation in the church family of which I'm currently a member.
My wife and I did NOT grow up in this church family. We're there because several years ago they were in need of an organist/choir director. Having these skills/talents, she was available....we both transferred. It's a small church, the membership age demographics not unlike that of TCA/York. There has always been the underlying concern about the membership decline. Lots of suggestions and ideas have been shared...from within and without.
And, yet, the under-whelming response...not just for lack of leadership...has been 'I like it the way it is. I don't want to change. I want to be promoted soon to Glory from this church.' And so, it probably will stay the same...........to it's demise, I'm guessing. There have been two other churches of the same denomination in our city who have closed their doors having followed the same template. It's the old adage 'If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got' at work.
So I'd say that the concerns voiced here about York, TCA, and other extensions of this hobby indeed have some merit and worthy of discussion....if not early resolution. It's healthy, IMHO.
KD
Greg Houser posted:... Perhaps the ED-TCA is perfectly fine with York returning to it's roots.
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That, of course, is their prerogative. But that would only put the TCA on a fast rack to the inevitable, since -- as Barry noted so well -- collecting is no longer the future of the hobby.
I would respectfully suggest that would not only hasten the drop in York attendance -- but also the drop in TCA membership numbers in general. How many folks would renew their TCA membership if York became just a swap meet again?
David
The old adage goes.....if you want to experience change, then you must do something other that what you are all ready doing.
Rocky Mountaineer posted:Greg Houser posted:... Perhaps the ED-TCA is perfectly fine with York returning to it's roots.
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That, of course, is their prerogative. But that would only put the TCA on a fast rack to the inevitable, since -- as Barry noted so well -- collecting is no longer the future of the hobby.
I would respectfully suggest that would not only hasten the drop in York attendance -- but also the drop in TCA membership numbers in general. How many folks would renew their TCA membership if York became just a swap meet again?
David
I never stated that wouldn't happen but we're assuming that is the ED-TCA's concern. Seeing as how change is so slow it's clear to me that's not their concern. It's their private chapter and meet to run as they see fit. Whether or not that aligns with TCA National, businesses who attend, or anyone else who's not a member is really no concern of theirs nor ours. Everyone here is just assuming their goal is to grow the hobby and attract new members and I don't agree with that at all. Let the folks making money off of the hobby worry about growing the hobby and attracting new members. I'll just enjoy York for as long as it lasts and am grateful the ED-TCA is full of volunteers who give their time and talents so 10k+ people can have fun for 3 days.
-Greg
However, one would think that they also want the hobby to continue and grow after the current crop of collectors have moved on, whatever the reason for their departure.
Are operating and collecting part of the same hobby?
Some of the attitudes / comments expressed here on this board lead me to believe otherwise.
If the Train COLLECTORS Association isn't servicing collectors, then there is no reason for it to exist.
This doesn't mean it cannot accommodate operators too.
Everyone here is just assuming their goal is to grow the hobby and attract new members and I don't agree with that at all. Let the folks making money off of the hobby worry about growing the hobby and attracting new members
Here Here!
The ED-TCA is private, not for profit organization. They run the meet as they see fit - simple as that. You either attend or don't. Comparing it to other organizations who hold similar events whose primary goal is to make money is a waste of time.
So what does the ED do with the profits?
If the manufactures really wanted to help the hobby they could start by lowering some of their prices I feel that if they just started with that we could grow this hobby. I will go to the scale show this weekend and find hundreds of people there why because they Don't have to spend a small fortune for a starter set or a locomotive , or a freight car. People do come as guests to the meet and find out they can't afford just a simple starter set and then they can go to a scale show and use that same money they could have spendt at the York meet and buy a starter set, and Then you have somebody in the hobby just not O scale. when you look on the table when you see a locomotive for $1000 or more then you go to a scale show and see a HO or N scale for half of that. It doesn't take a scientist to understand that the problem is not just whether it cost a lot to go to the meet, it cost a lot to just get into the O scale hobby. So instead of making demands the manufactures need to start thinking about growing this hobby for the average consumer. The line in the sand needs to be with us not them
So what does the ED do with the profits?
It cost a lot of money to fly first class and stay at the best hotels when your a board member and have to travel to meeting all the time. I did hear he is no longer on the board.
jmiller320 posted:So what does the ED do with the profits?
It cost a lot of money to fly first class and stay at the best hotels when your a board member and have to travel to meeting all the time. I did hear he is no longer on the board.
What makes you think there are profits?
Pete
I think we've beaten this subject to death. Let's take a break.
