Attendance at York

lionel89 posted:

Mo985 posted:

As a "younger" guy so to speak, here are my thoughts on the factors involved in the attendance decline.

I firmly believe that the timing seems odd, Thursday through Saturday. Most people in my "demographic" aren't going to take the time off of work to go Thursday for a half day.  I realize this show is "by the members, for the members" and it seems that they may be catering more to the retired crowd? Last October was my first time attending and I took Friday off to go. I also live local, so no extra expenses there.

If people are thinking of going, they may end up on this forum and start reading about the event, and if Saturday is the only day they can go, it may be discouraging reading about people closing down, or whatnot at noon, or 1.

Chris

As a 27 year old and working professional, I completely agree.  I am in no way criticizing or trying to start an argument; however, if the TCA wishes to increase the number of younger people attending York, the days of the show need to be adjusted accordingly. 

I attended my first York at age 30.  Yeah, the schedule was odd, but I used vacation days from work.  Since then, I've continued to use vacation days.  Even when I've been self-employed and each day off cost far more in lost revenue than I spent on trains, I took days off.  Life is too short to work all the time.

Many of the dealers I have spoken to in the past all say the same thing about York.  It cost them a lot of money to attend the show and every year it gets harder for them to break even.  With the diminishing membership and attendance it's like selling in a fishbowl.  Several dealers stopped going for the above reasons.  I liked going to York for the variety of big dealers that you see advertising in the trade magazines all under one or three roofs.  It sounds like some of the halls were not used this year because of the vacant spaces. 

PJB posted:

I didn't read every post, but I'd still offer the following newb-ish opinion:

I and others I know believe we are not welcomed at York.  It's often discussed as a "members only" event. I've been told by several dealers that the only way for me, a simple hobbyist, to attend is to go with them.  And, I am not allowed admittance on my own unless I am sponsored by an existing TCA member, join TCA and pay annual dues (all this just to attend a train show?).  If that's the rules, fine. But when I first heard this, it felt a little like the Masons, or Mob.  I've never really bothered pursuing it since, even though doing a very large O scale show is interesting - conceptually.   Seems awful uptight, formal and like a lot of trouble for a simple hobbyist interested in just building a pike in the basement with my twin little boys.  

On top of the negative specter hanging over York for people like me, it's also more feasible to do local shows, like the big West Springfield Massachusetts show .  No driving the better part of a day, no special initiation or double secret special handshake, no dues, and more convenient, without the airfare or gas/tolls and hotel bill.   Another setback is if you don't drive, you spend through the nose to ship goodies back to your domicile.  The biggest comic book show, San Diego ComicCon, has suffered as of late too for some of the same reasons.  I've seen many people complain that they spent $2,000 on hotel, airfare and food and then at the convention only found about  $1,000 worth of books they need. So they now own books valued at around $1,000 but that $1,000 cost them $3,000. 

Peter

As a second-generation TCA member and York attendee, I admit I'm biased: I love the York meet. My first York meet was Spring 1979, and I've attended more York meets than I've missed since then. It isn't perfect, but the bottom line is the rules are there for those who attend. Personally, I think it's great that twice a year, collectors / operators can bring their trains and accessories to sell in a secure, members-and-invited guests-only, controlled environment and feel relatively safe doing so. It's no secret around York that twice a year, the TCA shows up with lots of toy trains to buy and sell. Buyers can show up with large amounts of cash and feel relatively safe doing so. No one gets into the halls without ID. Granted, the values of the tinplate trains aren't what they used to be, but when you think about the volume of trains up for sale in those halls, and the amount of money changing hands, we should all be grateful for the rules the Eastern Division has in place for this event.

It's been my experience that most of the negative comments about York and the TCA come from those who aren't members and don't attend York. There are plenty of other members-only organizations out there, such as golf / country clubs. Every day, many of them close their doors to the general public and are exclusive to dues-paying members. What's wrong with twice a year?

jmiller320 posted:

Many of the dealers I have spoken to in the past all say the same thing about York.  It cost them a lot of money to attend the show and every year it gets harder for them to break even.  With the diminishing membership and attendance it's like selling in a fishbowl.  Several dealers stopped going for the above reasons.  ...

Very true... one of my LHS's didn't go to York this April... said it was no longer worth the expense vs. the sales realized.  He now prefers setting up a booth at the Allentown show twice a year instead.  Each vendor/dealer has gotta do what's right for their world.

David

I've expressed my opinion here and believe me the way, York is being run as a closed exclusionary members only meet; WILL NOT prove to be a winning long term strategy . This is one of many reasons that I dropped out of the TCA  (after a 30 yr membership).  Between eBay and the local/regional open meets, everything that one could ever want can be found.

In summer we regularly attend classic car show events and they are all open to the public. Some of them like the ones at Carlisle and Hershey are quite large and attract 50,000+ visitors.  Same with flea markets, Renninger's antique shows and other train shows like Allentown, Greenberg's, the Hobby expos, NMRA Shows and the WGH shows.  The TCA is the only association that takes a different posture with a firm and stubborn insistence on catering exclusively to those in the sunset of the hobby. In three years expect the   York attendance to decline by 30% so either  event will become inclusive or it will shrink to a half size event.   I guess we will need to leave the diehards that run York alone to figure it all out. In closing, I do wish these good folks at ED and TCA  all the best and hope that they recognize what needs to be done.

In northeast Ohio, recently, as annually, they have a small narrow gauge scale show in an old school in a tiny crossroads you never heard of.  Dealers, (including a structure dealer seen at Timonium) and I (looking for stuff) make the trek from some distance because that is one of the few narrow gauge  shows there are.  The same is true for the Chicago, Strasburg, and Santa Clara O scale shows.....:want O scale, must travel.  Want a lot of tinplate (and lots of trains?), must travel...to York.  Depends on the depth of your interest, and priorities....

PJB posted:

 

I and others I know believe we are not welcomed at York.

Therefore, you are a "victim"?  

Could the decline in attendance be a victim of boredom? Since first attending in 1993, the structure of the meet has been the same, the same as before and again the same as before that. In fact, I recall having seen the same trains and the same scrap parts on the same table with the same sleeping dealer since 1993. Life at the meet hasn’t changed. I hear the same lady chattering eloquently over the garbled P.A. system. Even the same security guard. The meet just needs some fresh life. Other than being in the new Orange hall, it is though I am still in the old TCA “hay-days” of the 80’s & 90’s. It’s always the same…

Scenic Express attends many shows throughout a given year. More than I really like to, but I find the investment of time, effort and money well worth it. I go to many of the larger shows and conventions around the USA as well as those in Germany and Japan. One common thread with all the shows is that the producers wants to create an “event” and not just a show. By “Event” I mean something that draws the customer to a show where the attendee feels justified spending his/her precious time and money at said event. I realize that the TCA’s mission is to offer a venue to trade and exchange trains (which was well in the 1960 mission statement) but this is a new time. But now we do have the internet. We do have an aging membership & the lack of new youth. We do have the added costs of attending which many of you have already commented as being the cause. Yes, the attendance is dwindling and I agree with all of your reasoning. In my opinion what is needed is to change the complexion of the meet, not begin chopping away at it. What is needed is a multi-faceted show that goes beyond the 1960 style meet. My idea is giving the attendee options that will draw the member back to the show and events to keep them there and keep and keep them interested. Let him/her leave the meet fulfilled.

Here are some of my suggestion:

Firstly. Keep it a closed show to membership only. That being said, … until Saturday. This issue has been discussed many time and beaten to death but… Open the orange and purple halls to the public. The issue is the PA Dept. of Revenue. This can be overcome! Any dealer attending the meet in these two halls MUST have a PA Sales Tax License. (Period!!) I understand the grandfathered relationship the Eastern Division (TCA “Association” Meet) has with the PA Tax people but this too must change. It is not difficult. We do it at our Fort Pitt Meets. There are fire hall shows, Boy Scout shows, and small show throughout Pennsylvania. This reasoning can be solved with the right accountant. What is the difficulty, as Rich well knows, is the TCA’s reluctance to change. The positive of having it open Saturday will introduce the unknowing public as to what we are about and hopefully spark new interest and membership to our association. Let them see what they are missing out on. Keep the meet open the same as most retail shows like Greenberg. My thoughts are to open to the public Saturday at 10 A.M until 4 P.M.

Secondly. To expand our meets to be multi-faceted. All the best shows I participate have many activities for the attendee early, before, during and after the meet times and dates. The Amherst Show (Big-E, Springfield, Mass.) and TrainFest in Milwaukee are fast becoming two of my larges and most important shows. They feature a full docket of speakers, clinics, workshop; as many as 5 & 6 events simultaneous happenings in rooms and auditoriums throughout the venue. These events are usually sponsored and contributed by the vendors and manufactures. Ideas could be to feature guest speakers like authors from the major publishing companies. Having the owners of the layouts feature in OGR’s most recent videos speak and comment Q&A on their videos while showing a free showing. The major manufactures demonstrating technical aspects of their new designs and concepts. Have “make-it, take-it” like what we do at various shows. Speakers and presenters to show new technique for restoration, upgrading and modifying trains accessories, layout design, building and kit-bashing, and of course scenery techniques. It was attempted several years ago in the Orange Hall Meeting Room and it was well attended. But was quickly and regretfully quelled by the powers-to-be. My idea is to re-occupy the Brown Hall and convert it in to clinic areas and theatre.

Thirdly. Another idea is to have contests and judging events with awards. Have several popular judging categories, i.e.: The prize for best collectible piece (pre-war, post-war, weathered scale and detailed component). An award for Best Restoration. Best diorama. Best youth show (Kid’s Club) piece or diorama. Best new item from manufacturers in several categories. The list can be vast when you really think about it.

And fourthly. Have pre-newsletters and post-newsletters (follow ups) and a dedicated Facebook page. A meet must be marketed like any other business. Obviously the pre-newsletters would get people ‘psyched-up’ for the upcoming meet. Dates, times, facts and FAQ’s, Have a guest author write anecdotal memories of meets past. Have a clinician write in-detail what their clinic is featuring. Give a list of registered dealers with web site links and contacts. A column from the registrar. An editorial from the Eastern President. How ‘bout links to hotels and restaurants that give coupons and discounts? The concept is simple; to convince the undecided and give that little extra kick in the pants to have him and her to attend.

The Follow-Up newsletter will provide us with the final attendance numbers and whatever stats the Eastern Division wishes to offer. It would also announce the award winners, meet photos, editorials with comments and suggestions and early info future meets.

TrainFest does it and it must work well and their attendance has grown substantially over the past few years. The newsletter could be mailed for starters and e-mailed. I believe a show, regardless of the nature must be marketed or otherwise it will die. I am seeing many show currently that are doing the same-ole’, same-ole’ and their numbers and dealer sales are perpetually dwindling.

The time has come, as many of you have commented, that things do need to change for our Association and York Meet to survive into the future. The task is daunting. Most at the TCA are in their comfort zone and don’t want to put forth the effort to change. I too am guilty of apathy. I don’t want to see this ‘golden goose’ of a show disintegrate right from under us. We all know what first needs to be done. Just read Rich Melvin’s post. I agree with him, so here were a few of my observations and suggestions. I welcome your comments, contributions and critiques.

Talk later guys… I’m off to Hawaii for 2-1/2 weeks. Aloha

Jim

Jim well stated!!!!!!!!

Does any one here know of a TCA board member to which Jim's suggestions maybe forwarded too?   This suggestion should be read by the TCA board members as it may spark some activity on their end.

Over the last few years it was blatantly obvious that the attendees at York and other shows were aging, a lot. Many sellers were older and trying to sell their items at hey day prices. As these people pass on and/or become too old to do the York show, the attendance numbers drop because their numbers are larger than the number of new faces coming in. The new faces are also looking for a different type of merchandise. They want the new merchandise with the electronics and fancy effects for the most part.

I am retiring in a few years. I've been selling off my collections for several years. Its a slow process and many people are not paying what items are worth,and do not appreciate the scarcity or rarity of an item. I had fun collecting my stuff, but it was time for it to go. Out of a massive train collection, a massive Plasticville collection, and some coins, I am now down to a hand full of Plasticville Kits and parts numbering less than 45. I have already purchased my retirement homestead, and am just waiting until I can collect SS and I am off. I have not gone to York now in at least three years. What is the sense of doing so when I am not buying and need nothing special parts wise that I cannot get on line. At $50 a pop, I just let my TCA membership lapse. No sense in paying $50 to get a few magazines and the privilege to go to a show I no longer have any need to attend. 

Tin

Well said Jim! 

   I agree with everything you say. Being involved with running a trade show (retailers and manufactures only) that is growing each year against the trend of getting smaller in Las Vegas, you are 100% right about bringing the show up to date. I spoke to many of the dealers in the Orange Hall and they echoed the remarks of that they don't need to keep coming to the show because they can sell on the Internet back home and cut the costs. Doing the show costs us thousands in hotel, truck rental, employees, food and more in the past. We have cut out the bandit shows, cut the days (when the TCA opened up Thursday), sold the tent and trailer, and stopped renting the box truck and bought a van. 

   The old timers are going to jump on me (again) but the show needs to change! We need to welcome younger people in and make it inviting. Open the show (dealer halls) up to the public on Saturday. Spend some money on promoting it. Charge everyone a extra buck and use that money to buy some knockout door prizes (Yes, they did that in the past) and give them out at the end of the show. Winner must be present. Get local TV crews in to do a cover story. Cut the Thursday half day out and add it onto Saturday till 6:30. It's time for the TCA to wake up and realize that it's members are mostly operators not collectors so much and they are driving the membership. We need a committee to reach out to offer help to place old trains or new ones in TV shows, movies and online. Wake up and embrace the Internet and Facebook. The world has changed folks! It ain't coming back to the way it was! My old joke to the old timers (and I am one now in my 60's) is, "Remember when you went to a garage sale and bought a 400E for 25.00? Well those days ARE coming back"! The newer generation has NO interest in collecting anything! Prices have plunged on old trains and only stayed high on the museum and super mint ones. The TCA reminds me of the book I read (On a Kindle) "Why are you Making it so Hard to give You My Money?" about retailers who post all kinds of rules and "No" signs on their stores. Why are you making it so hard to attend your show?  Charlie Ro even said to me that he see's the future not long for the show  if it continues this way. I agree with that too and I can tell you the manufactures are thinking the same thing. A committee needs to be formed with retailers, members and manufactures to work on some strategies for the future. Are you listening eastern division?   

Allegheny posted:

Does any one here know of a TCA board member to which Jim's suggestions maybe forwarded too?   This suggestion should be read by the TCA board members as it may spark some activity on their end.

It is the EDTCA.  Any suggestion should go there.

I agree with opening up the show to everyone.  Closed clubs are a thing of the past if you want to promote your agenda.  

There is a live steam club not too far from me that only allows members to view their 1 1/2" scale outdoor trains.  Reading through the "Rules of engagement", turns one away from even wanting to visit the place.

I joined the TCA only this year.  The jury is still out on how it will play out for me.  Some tid-bits of what some have posted is giving me second thoughts about my decision.  Let's just see how it goes.  

Again to all of the guys that want to "open it to the public", there are agreements with the PA tax man.  Now it's pretty easy to say well just have the vendor halls require a tax license...they already do.  I suspect there are a lot of other issues regarding the tax agreement that doesn't make it black and white.  Thing is I don't know and 95% or more of the people here don't either.

It's great to suggest ideas, it never hurts, but moaning and groaning on a forum when the EDTCA can't accommodate because of an agreement and then just bringing up over and over again isn't going to change things.  I suspect that the EDTCA is not blind to the attendance issue.  Maybe one of these ideas will be the "one".  

dk122trains posted:

Jim well stated!!!!!!!!

I second, third forth, fifth.......that!!!

dk122trains posted:

Jim well stated!!!!!!!!

Jim.....I agree!!!!!!!

rrman posted:

dk122trains posted:

Jim well stated!!!!!!!!

I second, third forth, fifth.......that!!!

Yuuuup, the man knows his game.

FrankM.

This is beaten to death like the phones and strollers in the halls subjects were.....I have counterpoints but it is not worth typing them all out.   For just ONE, I will say...I go for trains and stuff I can use on my layout...in the brief time  of the show.  I am not wasting any of it in not hunting,  that is, sitting in any "clinic" when it takes half a day of plodding to hit all the buildings, and then repeat.  (I attend a lot of other, open shows and never waste a moment doing anything but looking for trains...no clinics, no layout tours....I gave up selling because that wasted search time)  My time is wasted at York now because of the dwindling away of the early in the week open shows, which were the only shows this time I saw stuff I SHOULD have bought.  As for opening the show to the public, that MIGHT bring in a few people more from as far as Philly and Harrisburg, that can drive back home at night....how many non-train nuts (not deeply committed) are gonna drive  farther and spring for inflated motel prices?  I am starting to question my sanity for doing that, from a greater distance.....there is nothing we can do about aging or shrinking market and their possible effects on current few innovative products.

I like the meet just the way it is. I am mainly a collector.

When I went, what I basically saw was all people in the older generation. Not too many younger people. This is the main problem with the TCA and the railroad community as a whole. Otherwise it was a good show with plenty of people grumbling about prices ans such. 

It has been suggested in the past by many of the forum members that if you don't like the way the York Show is run, start your own show.  Rich, you seem to have a lot of contacts in the business, maybe it's time for OGR to put together a large show.  I would attend.

I do not go to the York show, maybe for being open to the public should only be one day (Sunday) and user the other days for members. This way all could be happy and allowing the member to choice if they want to skip the last day or not, just a suggestion.

jmiller320 posted:

It has been suggested in the past by many of the forum members that if you don't like the way the York Show is run, start your own show.  Rich, you seem to have a lot of contacts in the business, maybe it's time for OGR to put together a large show.  I would attend.

Or perhaps you'd be willing to start a train show?  I doubt OGR wants that responsibility either.  It's very easy to do until you have to do it.

I go to York to see things in person that I buy.  Most everything i get on internet or this forum is rarely as advertised.  By not attending the other shows I save time, effort and money.  I can then easily afford the TCA and York fees with the time and money saved.  

Whatever items I could see or find at the other "better" shows that I don't go to, will probably be at York in larger quantities and lower prices.  

I go to York to spend money and get information.  It does take time and effort to go, but the concentration of O and S is unrivaled anywhere.  I haven't heard anyone post the name of a train show with more quantity of O and S.  I don't do N, HO, Z, G, or live steam.  Just not interested.

A previous poster commented the best measurement is dollars spent per attendee.  That is very true and probably the best measurement for vendors. 

The only attendance numbers I would care about are paying customers and return customers.  Tire kickers are nice but dollars fuel the show.

As for the days and times, it just depends on how bad you want it.  I have never camped out for black friday or for movie and concert tickets, but a lot of people do.  Without the Sunday and half day Sat travel time I probably couldn't go or as often.

I like the same old dealers with the same old stuff.  They are helping pay the rent and I can quickly walk by without a pause to look.  By shopping on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday this April I was able to view several more tables of merchandise and buy items from them.  At the York show I was able to pass those tables by, because I had already shopped them.  Last October I was not able to shop all the York tables during the Thu to Sat noon time frame.  This year I was able to finish all the halls by Friday night.  I made a list of things I was interested in and spent saturday buying the items that were still on my mind.

I bought only two things I was looking for.  Unfortunately, I bought almost 200 items that I wasn't looking for or were too cheap to pass up.  Union Pacific passenger cars LN 10.00 each.  1065 and 222 alco engines like new 15.00 each.  Airex toy fair boxcar mob 15.00.  MOW welding work caboose mob 15.00.  MTH/QSI layout sound generators for farm, train station and some other one, new 7.00 each.  Had no intention of looking for or buying nearly all the stuff I bought.  I had a great time and will start saving up for October. 

Hopefully i didnt offend anyone and maybe this post won't get deleted.

colorado hirailer posted:

I go for trains and stuff I can use on my layout...in the brief time  of the show.  I am not wasting any of it in not hunting,  that is, sitting in any "clinic" when it takes half a day of plodding to hit all the buildings, and then repeat.

For myself, I agree. But I am still actively building my collection. Not everyone is at the "hunting" stage. And even if they are, possibly the person with a smaller budget might like being assured that he has something to do at the show if he blows all his money on the first day.

I would also argue that, if we want younger hobbyists to get more deeply involved, it would be very helpful to provide them with opportunities to learn.

MartyE posted:

jmiller320 posted:

It has been suggested in the past by many of the forum members that if you don't like the way the York Show is run, start your own show.  Rich, you seem to have a lot of contacts in the business, maybe it's time for OGR to put together a large show.  I would attend.

Or perhaps you'd be willing to start a train show?  I doubt OGR wants that responsibility either.  It's very easy to do until you have to do it.

The discussion here is not how to replace York but to transform  the meet, to increase attendance,  make it more lively and profitable for everyone including the ED. The answer /statement that "why, we've been doing it this way for years" or"I like the meet just the way it is" no longer a valid argument in today's times.  Many share concerns about the lack of young people at York BUT yet they are shut out.  The objective of any business is to attract a diverse audience of all ages,  develop more business and make more money. This can't possibly be achieved with the same aging audience.  

Wonder why dealers, big and small haven't complained to EDTCA?  I would think collectively they would have more clout than us individuals.

Jim's and Charlie's posts both make constructive points, and they have some credibility based on their roles in the train business.  I don't agree with everything they suggested, but they are offering something other than just repeating "the tax thing is BS" canard.  I especially like the idea of opening up the dealer halls only to the public on the last day of the show - if it's enforceable, it might satisfy everyone including the tax man.

Unfortunately, we are frequently reminded that this is ED's show, not TCA's.  If I was in ED, I'd make the suggestions, but I have no standing to do so.  Perhaps this should be raised as an issue during the next TCA election - even though the president can't force ED to make changes, he/she can make suggestions and increase the visibility of the issue to the membership.  

Again, I think we could more likely grow the hobby and York attendance by reinvigorating adults.  There are still a lot of guys who had a train as a kid that have no idea how the hobby has progressed.  Kids don't have any money.  I had a friend over to see my layout and then brought him to York a couple of years ago.  He spent over $1000 there that trip and started his own layout.  Forget the kids.  Get more adults involved.

Dennis

 I especially like the idea of opening up the dealer halls only to the public on the last day of the show - if it's enforceable, it might satisfy everyone including the tax man.

In the past, representatives from the Eastern Division have stated that this is not possible, the "tax man" won't go for it.

If the show is so awful, and going to die anyway, maybe the Eastern Division should just cancel it.

rrman posted:

Wonder why dealers, big and small haven't complained to EDTCA?  I would think collectively they would have more clout than us individuals.

They have...

I think conversation and good constructive dialog never hurts.  Somethings cannot be changed.  We must accept that.  EDTCA made some recent changes in the cell rule and photography rule.  If anything can be done to encourage more folks to attend it should be but we shouldn't accuse them of shutting people out or not listening if the structure currently in place keeps them from doing so.

Again I think if you have more folks join on a national level then York will prosper as well. 

rrman posted:

Wonder why dealers, big and small haven't complained to EDTCA?  I would think collectively they would have more clout than us individuals.

Not sure about dealers, but I thought MTH was quite vocal about this topic a few years ago... But that was also when TCA membership required two signature/sponsors, and York had the restrictions/ban on all photography and cell phone usage.  So things have changed albeit slowly over the past few years.

David

Clearly, every post with positive or negative comments are geared towards their own agenda.  You have the people who enjoy the Meet as it is, and those who want the Meet open to the public so they don't have to pay the dues to join the TCA, disguised as "growing the hobby".  Again, it's so funny when people complain about the cost of membership and then spend thousands on the trains anyway.

There have been some great suggestions, but probably none of the people suggesting them will contact the relevant EDTCA individuals or do any volunteer work with the EDTCA to help make changes.  None of the rules of the Meet have any negative effect on my enjoyment of the Meet, making purchases or seeing friends.

So, if you are so inclined to make a complai…… um, I mean suggestion to the EDTCA about the York Meet, you can start at the link below.  Of course, it would probably help your cause if you were an actual TCA member to start with.

Eastern Division Board of Directors

Dennis LaGrua posted:

...  The objective of any business is to attract a diverse audience of all ages,  develop more business and make more money. ...

Dennis, I agree in general.  But there are definitely exceptions to this broad statement.

20 years ago, my wife and I built our home in Bucks County, PA with a custom builder.  Today, I don't think that same builder would even build our home.  He's moved on to building enormous "castles" that are 12,000+ square feet and appropriately MUCH more expensive.  Yet his business is doing quite well, because he's been successful targeting a specific market/clientele.  I'm sure there are some folks who would like him to build 4,000 square foot homes, but he doesn't want/need to do that anymore.  

That's what brings me back to the issue about vendors and some members wanting to change York.  Yet the EDTCA might be very happy with the status quo (with a few minor changes here and there) -- rather than making  dramatic/sweeping changes.  Of course, we know the shortsighted thinking will eventually bring about the end of York as we know it MANY years from now.  But playing devil's advocate here, I'm sure some EDTCA folks are also thinking, "Who's gonna be around then to turn out the lights anyway?".  

David

Any dealers that displayed in the dealer hall care to comment how much it cost them to attend the show and sell your products?

I've been going since 1989.  The attendance feels just right to me.  I can do all I want to see in the first afternoon.   It used to be too crowded.  

As far as buying stuff, I mostly preorder my trains now, but love to see all the displays.  I only bought a couple small items last week.  But, I picked up info on a turnable I plan to pick up at the next York.

I also really like the vehicles and figures.  Old tin, paper, and the layouts round out a fun day.  

TCA should offer a lifetime membership. 

Joe Hohmann posted:

PJB posted:

 

I and others I know believe we are not welcomed at York.

Therefore, you are a "victim"?  

No, genius. It'a possible reason why it's attendance numbers are declining - exclusionary paradigms tend to lead to limitations. 

Dennis posted:

Again, I think we could more likely grow the hobby and York attendance by reinvigorating adults.  There are still a lot of guys who had a train as a kid that have no idea how the hobby has progressed.  Kids don't have any money.  I had a friend over to see my layout and then brought him to York a couple of years ago.  He spent over $1000 there that trip and started his own layout.  Forget the kids.  Get more adults involved.

Dennis

Might I remind you that Toy Trains were first and foremost designed for children. The problem with our hobby is that kids these days aren't getting involved enough. Prolonging our hobby can't be done without involving kids. Even joining a model train club can help introduce children to the hobby. That's what I did and now I'm a postwar collector who is seven years into the hobby.