Hey I had a GREAT TIME @ YORK I got to see the premier showing of GLA # 12 @ OGR BOOTH I am the PROUD owner/CEO of the HIGHLAND PARK & ELDORADO R/R And I was the 1st featured layout on GLA 12 All 4 layouts are MARVELOUS and I think you guys all NEED to buy a copy and see for yourselves !! Thanks to Rich and ALL the gang @ OGR !!! for their help !! Best regards Gary Clare
Gary, were you there? I missed you.
Last week was only my second York, so I don't have the mind-blowing historical perspective of some posters here. In addition, despite saying I'd never do it again, I pulled another York Thursday 333 (3 hour drive there, 3 hours spending money, 3 hour drive home), so my observations are rather limited. That being said, I observed a lot of buying. I'm sure no one has stats on this, but I'd be interested in seeing if there is any correlation between the changing attendance numbers and sales. A few forum sponsors have commented on their experience last week, and it seems generally positive, but it would be interesting to hear from more vendors, especially some of the larger ones such as Grzyboski's, Ro, Trainworld, Mr. Muffin, Nicholas Smith, etc.
One other comment/observation... I think the Eastern Division deserves major cudos for putting this show on twice a year - I can not begin to imagine the amount of work that goes into doing it once a year, much less twice. And special appreciation is due to all of the volunteers who staff the venue. Any one that I had any interaction with was friendly, polite, and helpful.
Well, it looks like this is the end of the world for the TCA Eastern Division York Meet. Hang onto your trains fellas, because in 10 years when all model train shows and publications and importers all close their doors, our trains will be worth millions!!! 
It's almost hysterical but sad at the same time when people will spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on trains yet complain about the small cost to attend. I think the Meet should be held four times a year. That way members and vendors both could have maximum exposure of their business and items they sell. That is, if they really want to have exposure to their products.
Anyway, the Meet is held by their members for their members. Simple as that. Sort of like how your Christmas gathering is held by your family for your family. Unless of course you should open it up to the public so we could all celebrate with you at your house!! 
I was waiting and hoping to hear from you, Andre, in one of these York threads, and am very glad you had a positive experience.
And I like that expression you coined here, "project partners." Brilliant! Tells a lot about you, sir.
FrankM.
York is always great. The only negative comments usually come from people who do not go. Nothing like meeting with great friends, seeing the latest offerings, great DCS and Legacy meetings, and buying great trains for a price you will not see anywhere else.
Forum members all have a favorite dealer they buy trains from. All the top dealers are usually at York and it is great to talk one on one with these folks that you deal with over the phone and email.
It is always great to talk to all the good folks at OGR, Lionel, and MTH.
If York ended anytime soon, those who have been players will all say what a great run it was. I do not see it ending anytime soon as I get to see and meet more new people in the hobby often. The hobby is strong. So are the great people who support it.
York week was earlier this year. The stock market is not where we would like it, income taxes are due, and it is an election year. Nobody can tell how those situations affected the numbers at York.
Moonson posted:I was waiting and hoping to hear from you, Andre, in one of these York threads, and am very glad you had a positive experience.
And I like that expression you coined here, "project partners." Brilliant! Tells a lot about you, sir.
FrankM.
Frank!
You have greeting from Mary Ann, the security old lady that is in the door. She is a very nice person.
Positive experience depend which side of the glass you are watching.
I hope to see you in October if not as vendor as visitor.
Andre.
aussteve posted:I was very disappointed that you had to pay to get in, ( just like a movie theater, or a museum, National Parks, Tollways, Subways, etc ). And I was surprised that the table holders were charging money for their trains and merchandise. You also had to pay for any food that you received and ate.
Is this poster actually Bernie Sanders? I think everyone should use their real names.
AG - River Leaf Models posted:Moonson posted:I was waiting and hoping to hear from you, Andre, in one of these York threads, and am very glad you had a positive experience.
And I like that expression you coined here, "project partners." Brilliant! Tells a lot about you, sir.
FrankM.
Frank!
You have greeting from Mary Ann, the security old lady that is in the door. She is a very nice person.
Positive experience depend which side of the glass you are watching.
I hope to see you in October if not as vendor as visitor.
Andre.
Thanks, Andre ! I am very happy to receive the greetings from Mary Ann, through your kindness in conveying them to me. She was one of the bright lights in the experience of being at that big door, and I always enjoyed our big hugs Hello and Farewell. I am glad to hear she is still there and apparently well.
Thanks again. FrankM.
C W Burfle posted:The privilege of attending the York meet more than once is one of the few tangible benefits of belonging to the TCA. Many would say it's the most important one. You cannot be successful running a business when you give away your merchandise / services for free.
You also cannot run a successful business when you spend many thousands of dollars to attend a show that is dwindling in attendance and has the same audience at every show.
Don't get me wrong - it is wonderful to see old friends and make a few new ones each year. But there is never any "new blood" at York - no young people, no families, no "top of the funnel" people, no one that represents the future of the hobby.
And it is no longer a "big" show in our universe. It is the smallest show we do in terms of attendance. I am beginning to question whether we will continue to do this show unless things change.
Rich as always you have a great perspective on things.
Rich, do you think that OGR might find itself in a similar situation in the near future? I would think every business associated with the hobby is feeling or will feel the crunch?
The difference between York and other show is attendees come with deep pockets. Then vendors bring better stuff. At local shows, anything over $100 is a hard sell.
Just a thought
I didn't realize this was no longer the largest show (attendance). Its also the only show I know of that is not a Sunday show. Maybe the attendance would be better if the young people with jobs could go on a full weekend? they added Thursday, they should have added Sunday ?
clem
Good evening, this was my wife and I fourth York show.
I did not pre register and registered Friday as a walkup. I will say one thing the Ladies working the registration where top notch and got the line and kept the line moving.
I thought the Member hauls when we arrived around 10:00am were packed. We walked up a down a few aisles and then head for the Orange Hall hoping it was not as crowded.
I think York is a great time with everything that goes on in three days.
Attended my first OGauge meeting under the Grandstand and it was entertaining to say the least.
With everything going on in the economy right now I think people are pulling in the mad money.
Myself I had $500.00 in my pocket and more in my wife's pocket just in case and came, home with $ 380.00 of the $500.00 so I didn't buy to much.
I got what I was looking for and a few other smaller items.
With the energy industry under fire the way it is I have elected to watch my spending just in case !!!!!
OGR Webmaster posted:C W Burfle posted:The privilege of attending the York meet more than once is one of the few tangible benefits of belonging to the TCA. Many would say it's the most important one. You cannot be successful running a business when you give away your merchandise / services for free.
You also cannot run a successful business when you spend many thousands of dollars to attend a show that is dwindling in attendance and has the same audience at every show.
Don't get me wrong - it is wonderful to see old friends and make a few new ones each year. But there is never any "new blood" at York - no young people, no families, no "top of the funnel" people, no one that represents the future of the hobby.
And it is no longer a "big" show in our universe. It is the smallest show we do in terms of attendance. I am beginning to question whether we will continue to do this show unless things change.
IMO, Rich gave the best business analysis of the meet. Thank You. In the event business, it is the obligation and responsibility of the meet/show promoters to do everything possible to build the gate to the highest attendance numbers possible and to attract new buyers. Unfortunately this cannot be done with the existing business model.
In OGR's case Rich Melvin runs this forum. He could close the forum to subscribers only but he keeps it open to all. Why?... because it offers more exposure and better business opportunity for OGR and their advertisers. Smart thinking, I'd say.
gftiv posted:The difference between York and other show is attendees come with deep pockets. Then vendors bring better stuff. At local shows, anything over $100 is a hard sell.
A good show is more than just than selling products. A good show must also include opportunities to invest in the future of our business by playing to a larger, broader audience. That is missing at York.
Some of you think low attendance is not a big deal. However, that is very short sighted because dealers and vendors need buyers to make their trip worth while.
York has never been billed as anything other than what it is. A member only meet, within a private organization. I attend because I live close, enjoy meeting and speaking to people who are in the hobby and having that many train related items in one place to shop. I never go "expecting" anything. When did it become more than that?
From a vendor standpoint, it seems to me that a key issue is whether they sell more "stuff" at at World's Greatest Hobby Show, Greenberg Show, etc. than at York. Does the larger percentage of hobbyists already committed to the O gauge and similar parts of the hobby translate into greater and consistent sales for the OGR businesses? I have no idea so that's why I am inquiring .
As a "younger" guy so to speak, here are my thoughts on the factors involved in the attendance decline.
I firmly believe that the timing seems odd, Thursday through Saturday. Most people in my "demographic" aren't going to take the time off of work to go Thursday for a half day. I realize this show is "by the members, for the members" and it seems that they may be catering more to the retired crowd? Last October was my first time attending and I took Friday off to go. I also live local, so no extra expenses there.
If people are thinking of going, they may end up on this forum and start reading about the event, and if Saturday is the only day they can go, it may be discouraging reading about people closing down, or whatnot at noon, or 1.
The internet plays a large part as well. I completely agree that you loose that personal touch of meeting and talking face to face with people, but have you looked at the younger generations? They don't want to actually interact with each other! They sit in groups, and just do stuff on their phones and call it socializing. I personally like meeting new people, and the thrill of haggling and trying to get a good deal. I am a big fan of the Internet as far as ordering exactly what I want and getting it delivered directly to me, I'm not guaranteed to get exactly what I want at a meet. I'm not particularly interested in tinplate, pre or post war stuff, and saw that most members tables were full of that stuff, not a lot of modern stuff.
Having a younger family also doesn't leave me with a ton of disposable income to spend on trains either. I was on the fence of going last weekend, knowing that if I did, I was going to have to shell out for TCA membership (with entrance to York being the only bennifit for me of being a member), but that also I didn't have any other money to spend on trains. (Had a friend of mine decided he wanted to go, I would have, just to share the experience with him, but he had other plans for the weekend, looked at me crazy when I mentioned taking time off of work to go, and my daughter ended up being sick in the beginning of the week, so I had to take Monday thru Wednesday off to stay home with her. However had it been all day Sat and Sun, I would most likely have gone.) If I didnt live locally, I don't think it would go over so well with "household 06" that I was taking time off work, going to (wherever), staying in a hotel, just to walk around and look at toy trains. That just being within driving distance. I definitely couldn't pull off flying and renting a car. If we didn't live locally, a family vacation might be feasible (my wife is from York) but we'd have to take the kids out of school, the kids get cranky after a few hours of walking (they are 8 and 10), as would my spouse, and they just don't have the interest that I do.
I went with the above mentioned friend to the Allentown spring thaw meet this year, my first time there as well, and found it fairly packed in the aisles and the 5$ entry was very reasonable. It was a last minute decision to go, so therefore I hadn't saved anything to be able to buy but really enjoyed looking. I realize that on the flip side, the sellers want to see the aisles full of "buyers", not "lookers". I am sure the sellers at York feel the exact same way.
I think I've rambled on long enough. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers or insult anyone, but wanted to share my perspective.
Chris
I'm sure that York didn't start out with many vendors just members buying and selling. The vendors are there because of the sheer concentration of members that are there. If attendance slides, some vendors (especially the ones that come a long way) probably will stop coming. Maybe there will only be an Orange hall and that may be half full of display layouts. York will go on with the members and vendors that you do see there will be local shops and small/cottage manufacturers that you find at smaller shows. Because of the population concentration York will probably always be the biggest of the "private" TCA Division meets. If businesses like OGR find that York is not within their business model anymore they'll move on ...that's going to be the nature of economics... we'll just have Rich here on vacation
Peter
Landsteiner posted:From a vendor standpoint, it seems to me that a key issue is whether they sell more "stuff" at at World's Greatest Hobby Show, Greenberg Show, etc. than at York...
Please see my post a few above this one. Selling isn't everything.
I've taken my grandson to the past couple Yorks and while he has a blast at them being a Saturday trip doesn't leave much time for just wandering and looking, we usually only hit a couple of the big halls and that's it. Now we both have a great time at the Timonium Greenberg show but that's our Christmas show so it's more of a tradition than anything but this year we may just skip York and hit Allentown for a change. The York hours really aren't suited to the regular guy/member who likes train shows but doesn't want to burn vacation time to go, it would be nice to make a long day of it on a Saturday instead of the short day it is now. I really don't understand how they came up with this middle of the week thing they have now but it is pretty inconvenient to a lot of us, I'll still go but I would prefer a full Saturday instead of a Friday.
Jerry
Well glad I will be going this October as my once-in-lifetime-cross-off-the-bucket-list adventure. Heck I get 80 % of train stuff from internet and rest from hobby shops about 50 miles away. Hope halls aren't as full so I can move quickly and also maybe vendors more anxious to sell !
But I agree TCA is hurting itself with its business model, but if it feels this way is the best way forward, well maybe I can show them how well buggy whip manufacturing business model fares. And IF Pennsylvania FINALLY has the gumption to clamp down on these cozy tax exclusion that TCA hides behind, then bet York will change or die. But heck, after October I won't care, as my membership will lapse in November 2016 anyway.
Dan Padova posted:Could it be that internet suppliers have eaten into the attendance of train meets everywhere ? Shopping on-line is almost a no-brainer when it comes to making comparisons on prices, it's all right there in front of you in a matter of minutes. And it gets shipped right to your door. There are no tolls, entry fees, gas, motel, etc costs to bear.
On the other side of the coin, it is nice to meet people face to face and maybe gain new friends at train meets.
I'm probably in the middle between the old timers (this is the only social forum I belong to where people die with any regularity) and the younger generation (under 40?). And being squarely in the middle, and an enthusiastic newbie to the hobby, I too enjoy searching, finding and shopping online while simultaneously reveling in meeting people at places like the Amherst train show and York. Seriously, the past few months have been a ton of fun for me and none too early as the rest of my life (job, kids, debt...) are a mess! Notice I didn't say anything about my wife as I'm saving that for another topic someone started relating to whether or not a spouse supports your hobby. My wife, if she knew how much I have spent on trains in the last 6 months, would totally support my obsession, if that's what you call it. You would, wouldn't you honey? Honey?
Wait, I forgot what this post is about now. Oh yeah, attendance at York. Listen, for a guy who has been to 2 train shows in his life, both in the last 3 months, I was blown away by York. If it was even better 2 years ago, better yet 5 years ago, and never-going-to-get-better 10 years ago, it's no matter to me. April 2016 was awesome and I'm coming back in October. 15,000 v 10,000 v something less, yeah it's a trend, but still....10,000 people interested in toy trains - wow! By the way, 9,989 of those people are awesome and where else are you going to find that?
Listen, these numbers aren't going to suddenly reverse. And this isn't about paying $50 for a TCA membership. As someone else mentioned, that's the price of 1 stupid boxcar these days, and then only if it's on sale. The numbers are down because guys (mostly) who collect or run trains died or got Alzheimer and their kid didn't take their place. Heck, most of us have given up on that idea and we're working on our grand kids to pinch hit. Same thing is going on in church, but I digress which is similar to Alzheimer.
Here's my pitch - keep showing up if you can. You are probably among the hundreds of people I met at York in my 2 days there that have me pining to come back in October. Can't wait to see you again.
The EDTCA has made great strides to make the "change" that everyone said would bring in more people. Cell phones, pictures, strollers, and others. Attendance didn't move. York isn't the problem. The TCA is. The LCCA does a great job at promoting and getting the word out. The TCA doesn't. I don't find fault with the EDTCA. There are reasons why it isn't open to the public. It's been stated here many times over. Unless National TCA does a better job then York will suffer through no fault of their own.
Landsteiner posted:From a vendor standpoint, it seems to me that a key issue is whether they sell more "stuff" at at World's Greatest Hobby Show, Greenberg Show, etc. than at York. Does the larger percentage of hobbyists already committed to the O gauge and similar parts of the hobby translate into greater and consistent sales for the OGR businesses? I have no idea so that's why I am inquiring
First off, I spent the entire weekend as a exhibitor at the World's Greatest Hobby Show. This show has little for sale besides Thomas The Tank Engine do-dads and other toys. The majority of the 40,000 people attending seemed to be families with kids. Good for the future of the hobby, perhaps, but poor for sellers (I talked to some of them).
Greenberg also has the families, but they also have a lot of HO and N buyers.
York is poor for vendors that have overpriced "old stuff". Few people are "collecting" anymore...and it's not only trains.
Unless National TCA does a better job then York will suffer through no fault of their own.
I don't disagree, but what should the TCA be doing?
Should they jump on the limited edition, members only, instant collectable bandwagon?
If collecting is on the downturn, the wheels are going to fall off that model soon.
Let me rephrase my question for the OGR team's decision making. Do they acquire more new subscribers and sell more DVDs at York or at these other shows? While promoting the hobby to the future generations is of importance, seeing friends is fun, I assume that the primary reason for attendance at these shows is to promote their current subscription and sales business, no?
OGR Webmaster posted:
And it is no longer a "big" show in our universe. It is the smallest show we do in terms of attendance. I am beginning to question whether we will continue to do this show unless things change.
Rich:
This is interesting. What is the ranking of shows in your universe? Please take a moment and let us know by name/location and descending order of "big" what these are.
Does this include the "Big E" show in Springfield? What else?
Thanks.
Steven J. Serenska
Seems this discussion is brought up after every York show. What I find interesting is that some of the biggest defenders of the never change York are starting to see the light.
I would be curious as to attendance distribution. Assume as distance from York "epicenter" increases, attendance becomes less ie, fewest from Alaska, Hawaii or overseas, while heaviest from surrounding PA, NY, NJ, MD. Of course for those far away and with deep pockets, travel and housing is a trivial expense.
I have been to at least one York every year since 2001 except for one year. When I pulled up at 8:50 am on Friday and got a good parking spot near the Orange Hall I knew attendance was down as this has never happened in the past.
As to why that is, I am not really sure. I doubt there is one answer but rather several things that factor into the cause. As said above my opinion would be is that younger people just don't find a need to belong to organizations like TCA and to attend events like this. I guess feel they can get all they need for this hobby from the internet.
The bottom line for me is I had a great time as usual and if indeed York will be gone someday, say 10 years from, my plan now is to attend every York until it gets so small it isn't the 3 hour trip or the ED stops having it or I'm dead.
Shows that we do that are larger in attendance than York:
Milwaukee Trainfest
Big "E" in Springfield, MA
World's Greatest Hobby (various venues)
I'm on the road today and don't have the attendance numbers at hand, so this is not listed in order of show attendance.
And while this lively discussion is running, what is the current status of cell phones, photography, two way radios etc now at York? Last I heard when a member a long while ago, all electronic devices were banned. Wife and I have those cheapie Uniden handi-talkies we use at shows to call if we find something. Are these allowed or banned, or banned only in certain halls?
Mo985 posted:
...the kids get cranky after a few hours of walking (they are 8 and 10), as would my spouse, and they just don't have the interest that I do.
Chris
Ultimately, it all boils down to this, IMO.
You also cannot run a successful business when you spend many thousands of dollars to attend a show that is dwindling in attendance and has the same audience at every show.
Don't get me wrong - it is wonderful to see old friends and make a few new ones each year. But there is never any "new blood" at York - no young people, no families, no "top of the funnel" people, no one that represents the future of the hobby.
And it is no longer a "big" show in our universe. It is the smallest show we do in terms of attendance. I am beginning to question whether we will continue to do this show unless things change.
Other than completely opening the show to the public, what changes should be made?
I think the show would be more family friendly, and attendance might increase if the show was returned to being a two day event, and shifted to Saturday and Sunday. But the facility might not be available, and there is the question about how the dealers / table holders would accept having to be there on Sunday.
As has been discussed to death here, the whole hobby of collecting and operating larger gauge trains is shrinking. There is nothing the TCA or anybody else can do to change that. Many young people are dealing with crushing debt from college loans, trying to find affordable housing, and decent jobs that pay well. Dwellings are getting smaller and smaller, fewer and fewer people are working in the same place for extended lengths. (So they have to be agile, ready to relocate with some frequency)
The problem isn't York. The problem is the space required to have trains, and their cost.
C W Burfle posted:As has been discussed to death here, the whole hobby of collecting and operating larger gauge trains is shrinking. There is nothing the TCA or anybody else can do to change that. Many young people are dealing with crushing debt from college loans, trying to find affordable housing, and decent jobs that pay well. Dwellings are getting smaller and smaller, fewer and fewer people are working in the same place for extended lengths.
The problem isn't York. The problem is the space required to have trains, and their cost.
Well stated CW!! Especially the last part of last sentence, COST. I would love to get an MTH J loco but wow the price, I have to think long and hard if I want to shell out that money. But thats me.
We were there Friday (wife and I) with our two sons, 4 and 7. We had a great time, and the Eastern Division does a tremendous job with the show. Many thanks to all the volunteers. Gorgeous weather and we were able to set up a nice picnic too. Perfect day overall.
I did have a few folks come up to us and ask us how we got our kids into the trains. We really didn't do anything other than to set up a layout and we use them. We really enjoyed the layouts, and I was pleased that the kids were respectful of the layouts and the vendor displays. It has been a point of ours to make sure our boys know how to behave. So we were proud of how they behaved.
I agree with those who say that the hand-wringing about attendance is kind of pointless, although I don't mean to demean the legitimate business concerns of the vendors -- they run a business and need to do what is right for them. If attendance is down, that is a relevant consideration for them. That being said, there were a few moments on Friday when I had a sense that a lot of this "stuff" about the hobby that I really enjoy may be passing away in the next 10-20 years. It will be replaced by something else, and life will go on, but there is always some sentimentality and sadness at any change when the change involves something you really enjoy. Then there is also the realization at how quickly the years pass and that is sobering as well.
But a great show and looking forward to the next one in October.
