Attendance at York

I didn't inquire further as he seemed quite nettled.

I imagine so. Thanks for the reply.

I have my NYS tax number, keep my records, file my forms, and pay my taxes. All for just a few shows. Not only wouldn't I do the same for another state, I have been considering giving up doing any shows, and getting rid of my NYS tax number.

To end on topic:
The TCA gets some free publicity here and to a lesser extent on the Classic Toy Trains chat board. I think the TCA would benefit if the Eastern Division was able to modify their rules to keep the one time guest rule, but officially end the need for that guest to be sponsored. In addition, the TCA and Eastern Division could jointly advertise the Eastern Division show on their own website, and in the major magazines.  (National TCA would benefit, so they should kick in). As I poster earlier, word of mouth isn't cutting it.

I would like to restate that at no time did I mention the TCA, York, EDTCA or anything by name. I specifically stated "some friends and I wanted to put on a swap meet". I did not even provide my name.

My reason for doing so, is to see if "taxes" was a valid reason for not opening the meet to the public. (someone already debunked the photography rules and gave a great example) I am constantly faced with reasons of why we can't do something or change the way we do things at work, and 9 out of 10 times its because someone has not looked into what the current statute of the rule or regulation is.

I do not wish to see York diminish, or the hobby for that matter, or anyone get into trouble, or be slapped with fines or have their possessions impounded. I would like to see York grow, or at least say the same, and not get to the point of only being 1 building.I have started talking with acquaintances about getting into the hobby, I took one to Allentown, and he was instantly hooked!

My research was just to validate that the "reason/ excuse" for keeping the meet closed to the general public was based off of the tax laws. I proved that it IS NOT a valid reason (anymore) to keep the meet closed to only TCA members or 1 time guests.

I apologize if I offended anyone or agitated/irritated anyone, but was merely doing the legwork to see what we can to make York better.

My research was just to validate that the "reason/ excuse" for keeping the meet closed to the general public was based off of the tax laws. I proved that it IS NOT a valid reason (anymore) to keep the meet closed to only TCA members or 1 time guests.

You don't have the MOU with the state of Pennsylvania that the Eastern Division has. So what did you prove?

Well I just can't help myself here so I will weigh in again.  As a background to the items I will present I have had over 15 years experience in leadership on both a State wide and National professional organization.  The State organization put on an annual meeting with vendors for years.  As a volunteer organization you serve two masters, your members and to a lesser but still important degree the vendors who attend your show.  Those vendors provide additional revenue to support your annual expenses.  If you have fewer members there is less of a reason for the vendors to display.  If you have fewer vendors there is less of a reason for the members to attend.  You get the picture. In an imperfect world you have to make everyone happy.  From what I see the TCA is a closed shop.  You have to want to join, you have to seek them out and they very little to inform prospective members of the benefits of membership.  Now you insiders don't beat me up here but as a non member there is little to go on unless I seek them out.  Something needs to be done to inform potential members of the benefits of membership, the benefits of attending the meet and the benefits of renewing.  If that means a single open day, that should be on the table for discussion, work out the govt stuff because everything of that nature can be worked out.  If the organization is losing attendees or worse members every non renewal should be contacted by mail or phone and asked to address the reasons why.  If you are not attracting new members and failing to retain a percentage of old members you are in trouble.  The organization should designate a portion of its annual expenses to membership services including a harsh look at member and vendor satisfaction.  Now there was a post above somewhere about a meeting between some vendors and the organizers.  That is not a good sign.  A single vendor complaining is one thing.  When vendors who compete with each other band together you have a problem.  Times have changed.  I realize this is about toys and everyone is a volunteer but if those volunteers are really invested in the organization then they will have to recognize changes are needed.   And by the way, my State association doubled its membership during my leadership terms because recruitment, retention and satisfaction became the mission.   I am glad I attended York once.  I would like to again before I move away but just because you have an event does not mean folks will make the effort to attend.  In the words of an old ad "where's the beef?"

That's a fact. It doesn't make sense to me for them to say such a thing because if you were going to go to York you would be a potential customer.

On the other hand, if an existing customer discovers a show like York, then then the dealer might loose business, as the individual's budget would be divided between the store and the show.

Maybe it would be best to have the facts of the " secret meeting" between EDTCA and the "vendors" before speculating and drawing conclusions.

And yes, LHS have no interest or motive in promoting a TCA organization with train meets that may divert potential dollars away from their store. 

Charlienassau posted:

I want to Thank Rich for keeping this thread open first. So lets get away from the Tax issue for awhile and back to the matter at hand. Instead of saying what is wrong with the show.

How do we increase attendance at York?

 

Since you're a dealer, how about really cheap prices.  Nothing  attracts people like $$.   All this talk about business stuff.... we customers like blowouts.  Seems I always got my best deals at York.  Saved on shipping and taxes.   Could walk out the door with my stuff.  And, the one stop shopping also saved saved a bunch of effort.  

So, if you want to increase attendance,  advertise and offer incentives... no secrets there.

Since you're a dealer, how about really cheap prices.  Nothing  attracts people like $$.   All this talk about business stuff.... we customers like blowouts.  Seems I always got my best deals at York.  Saved on shipping and taxes.   Could walk out the door with my stuff.  And, the one stop shopping also saved saved a bunch of effort.  

So, if you want to increase attendance,  advertise and offer incentives... no secrets there.

We did Woojr! We had (and still do) the best price ever on blowouts like our 3 car Budd Set for 149.99! 

woojr posted:

Since you're a dealer, how about really cheap prices.  Nothing  attracts people like $$.   All this talk about business stuff.... we customers like blowouts.  Seems I always got my best deals at York.  Saved on shipping and taxes.   Could walk out the door with my stuff.  And, the one stop shopping also saved saved a bunch of effort.  

So, if you want to increase attendance,  advertise and offer incentives... no secrets there.

 

 

I think most all of the major dealers offer discounts, not only against list price but lower than their every day discounts. That is one reason many of us go to York. Two of my purchases this year reflected a price 25% lower than the price on the same sellers web pages.

Actually if the dealers advertised the fact that they offer special discounts at York that could encourage more to attend. TCA and EDTCA has a smaller reach than many of the dealers that attend York. It has to be a joint effort.

Pete

For the last two weeks I saw Mario's.  Seemed like every day was Mario's in the email.  I'm a pretty forgetful, aging fellow so whatever repetitive effort Mario made stuck to my Teflon brain.

Was Mario at York?

I would like to see York open to members only on Thursday and Friday.  On Saturday, the member halls should be closed and the two dealer halls opened to the public.  That would avoid the tax issue and get more people into the show, which would help the vendors and get more revenue to the Eastern Division.  I see no downside to doing this except that it would involve changing some peoples' attitudes about the purpose of the show.

Diok S posted:

I would like to see York open to members only on Thursday and Friday.  On Saturday, the member halls should be closed and the two dealer halls opened to the public.  That would avoid the tax issue and get more people into the show, which would help the vendors and get more revenue to the Eastern Division.  I see no downside to doing this except that it would involve changing some peoples' attitudes about the purpose of the show.

Sounds like a good idea as others suggested but the "Tax deal" may be all inclusive to Saturday as well.  Without those details, it may or may not be as easy as closing the member halls on Saturday.  A lot of us assume that we know what the agreement is and without all  the details of the agreement we can only guess.

All this talk about a tax deal.  If the Dealer Halls (Orange, Purple) have to collect taxes now isn't this a moot point.

We were in the Purple Hall and had a good show, much better that last April.   Everyone I spoke to in the building was happy.

A very interesting thread!

I attended all three days and enjoyed my eighth York meet in six years.  I did find moving around all of the halls, on the given days I went to them, easier. (I went with a plan and list for the first time!  lol...)

I started Thursday in the white hall when the meet opened and it seemed as crowded as every to me. Moved on to the red hall same thing, again to me.  Visited the black hall for the layouts, which were nice to see.  Then to the purple hall, this was the one hall I went to that I noticed a much smaller crowd present.  Friday started in the silver hall and it seemed as crowded as ever.  Moved into the blue hall and noticed it was much easier to move around.  On to the orange hall, which initially seemed very crowded, but then seemed to thin out and made moving around the easiest I have ever moved through there.  Saturday was very light.  I was actually able to go to every hall again, find a couple of extra things, then head home.

After reading this all the way through, many good suggestions have made to improve the meet as a whole.  I hope that the TCA members will politely bring them to the attention of the ED and that the ED board members give them the proper consideration.  If the ED makes the proper improvements to the event, I feel it will continue to be relevant to the collector and operator, be it pre-war, post-war or modern. Standard, O and S gauge. 

I have every intention to continue being a TCA Member and continue to attend the spring and fall meets. 

It has been noted that everything moves in cycles.  While attendance may be down, I did take note that people my age (50) and younger are there. I also took note that some were looking at the pre and post war items (buying, I am not sure).  In the afternoon on Friday a couple of guys that were at least 15 years younger than me, said they "could not find the parts guy over in the hall where we register. Maybe he is in here now." (the orange hall). I am fairly certain they were talking about Jeff Kane "The Train Tender".  Which to me, IMHO, means the older stuff does mean something to some of the younger people. 

Since all of this started out as toys, that came to be collectibles, I can only imagine that what is currently being operated (or displayed) will one day reach the same status to a different generation.  I hope to be around to see that. 

jmiller320 posted:

All this talk about a tax deal.  If the Dealer Halls (Orange, Purple) have to collect taxes now isn't this a moot point.

 

All a dealer needs to do is to allow a margin in the price to include sale tax, then round it up or down to the nearest dollar. The dealer then has a sales receipt that states TAX included in price, plus records the sale. This keeps things very simple for buyer and seller.

All this talk about a tax deal.  If the Dealer Halls (Orange, Purple) have to collect taxes now isn't this a moot point.

Its the member table holders that don't have to deal with registering with the PA tax department, collecting taxes, and filling out forms. If one is only concerned with the dealer halls, then I guess its a moot point for them.

The original purpose of the show was for members to get together to buy, sell and swap among themselves. Its a big deal for the member table holders.

Andy Hummell posted:

MartyE posted:

If I remember correctly there was an issue of OGR where the EDTCA explained the whole open / closed meet thing.  Maybe one of the fine OGR folks can find it and post it here.

Also, the TCA published the original correspondence regarding this agreement in an issue of the Quarterly a couple of years ago including the PA Revenue Dept.'s agreement on the matter.

Andy

It was in the July 2013 issue, I had completely forgotten about that article, apparently the Governor of Pa. was involved in a solution in 1985 as well. The member halls are considered by the Pa. tax guys as areas of isolated sales.

I'd like to provide a link but it's in a members only area of the website, Oh God, I think I've just opened another can of worms

Jerry

C W Burfle posted:

That's a fact. It doesn't make sense to me for them to say such a thing because if you were going to go to York you would be a potential customer.

On the other hand, if an existing customer discovers a show like York, then then the dealer might loose business, as the individual's budget would be divided between the store and the show.

C.W. Good point. I hadn't thought of that. This is probably the reason as to why they misinformed  PJB. People sometimes do strange things when it comes to money. 

C W Burfle posted: "Its the member table holders that don't have to deal with registering with the PA tax department, collecting taxes, and filling out forms. If one is only concerned with the dealer halls, then I guess its a moot point for them."

So as others have stated in this and other threads.  Member Hall don't have to have tax id's.  Dealer Halls have to have tax id's. 

Member halls closed to the public.

Dealer halls could be open to the public.

Make a special color badge for members and another color for non-members.  Charge the same admission for both and the TCA ED profits on the additional ticket sales to non members and the dealers are happy because they are no longer selling in a fish bowl.

C W Burfle posted:

The expanse and breadth of the show - the entire substance of the post - glad you completely skipped over all of that.  

No, I really didn't skip over all of that.  I summarized what you wrote.

If you are looking for famous people like Neil Young, Mandy Patinkin, or Rod Stewart, and a media circus following them, it ain't going to happen at York. 
I've seen Mr. Young there. No big deal in my opinion, at the show he is just another TCA member. I'd rather leave a guy like him in piece to enjoy the show.  I worked in the concert business for a while years ago, and met enough "stars" to suit me. 

Usually Mike Wolf, higher-ups from Lionel and other manufacturer/importers are there.

If you are looking for seminars and presentations, you can attend some at the TCA museum the day before the show. Some companies have started doing presentations right at their spots in the Orange hall too.

Not sure what planet you're from, but ComicCon is an event that showcases  comics, film, television, the toy market, media, video gaming technology, art and has every major player present and in force.  And a ton of industry leaders, famous people and movie stars who ordinarily charge an arm and leg for an appearance.  All of this is put together and available for your $165 pass.  And, all available to any member of the general public who buys a ticket.  York is basically a toy train show that is not open to the general public. Get serious. 

jmiller320 posted:

 

Member halls closed to the public.

Dealer halls could be open to the public.

 

Not going to happen...

To quote from the article in the TCA Quarterly "Crisis at York 1985" from the July 2013 issue...

"Past President Clem Clement knows firsthand as he met with the Pa. tax officials again only a few years back and was warned not to change anything for fear of losing everything they have gained over the years. The tax authority has been looking the other way for many years and have warned against making many of the changes that have been proposed including opening to the public."

So unless they are able to work out something new it's not going to change, I for one wouldn't keep poking the tax man with a stick, you might not get the result you where hoping for. The article also noted what the taxman was intending to do until a deal was worked out and while not draconian by any measure it did raise the specter of moving the event to another venue like Timonium where sales tax collection and the posting of a bond by anyone selling at York wouldn't be require of the member sellers just the dealers.

Jerry

Jerry, did you even read what I posted?  It's happening now.  Member hall are not collecting taxes, dealer hall are.  The whole agreement means  nothing.  Taxes are being collected in the dealer halls.  That's the only reason given to keep the meet closed is they don't collect taxes in the member halls.

"it did raise the specter of moving the event to another venue like Timonium"

Actually, it might make sense to move the meet to somewhere with better airline service, hotels and accessibility if it could be done at similar costs.  York, PA, whatever its charms is not exactly the easiest place to reach or centrally located.  Not for me to decide, but I have no nostalgia for York, PA.  The meet would be just as enjoyable if it was in the Pittsburgh, Philadelphia or Albany areas, and I doubt the costs would be any higher. 

At some point, the meet needs to become members trading as it once was, or more like a "real" show, with some accessibility to the public, in order to maintain the interest of the commercial vendors who now dominate the show for some folks.  Change is inevitable.  The question is what is it going to be.  The membership of Eastern Division and its leadership will have to decide or just let it happen.  Sounds like it's only a matter of time before some of the Orange Hall vendors pull out.

So as others have stated in this and other threads.  Member Hall don't have to have tax id's.  Dealer Halls have to have tax id's. 

Member halls closed to the public.

Dealer halls could be open to the public.

Make a special color badge for members and another color for non-members.  Charge the same admission for both and the TCA ED profits on the additional ticket sales to non members and the dealers are happy because they are no longer selling in a fish bowl

We've come full circle. According to statements made by Eastern Division officers, Pennsylvania won't agree to any changes.

jmiller320 posted:

Jerry, did you even read what I posted?  It's happening now.  Member hall are not collecting taxes, dealer hall are.  The whole agreement means  nothing.  Taxes are being collected in the dealer halls.  That's the only reason given to keep the meet closed is they don't collect taxes in the member halls.

You don't understand, the tax man would require everyone to collect sales tax and post a $200 bond to be able to sell at York and a list of table holders would be given to the tax folks if they allowed the public in any of the halls dealer or member. If they allowed the public in at all they had to capitulate to the tax man, if they keep it closed to the public they would be left as it stands now, they weren't given a third option to open dealer halls to the public and keep them closed to the member halls and they were warned  doing so could jeopardize the status quo , it's an all or none proposition.

Granted it does seem like a good idea to allow the public in the dealer halls with a separate color badge but they can't do it per their agreement with Pa..

Jerry

jmiller320 posted:

Jerry, did you even read what I posted?  It's happening now.  Member hall are not collecting taxes, dealer hall are.  The whole agreement means  nothing.  Taxes are being collected in the dealer halls.  That's the only reason given to keep the meet closed is they don't collect taxes in the member halls.

That is 100% correct and at least I got your point. The PA tax man only gets involved with the two dealer halls. Such being the case there is no reason why these two halls cannot be opened to the public.  E.D. can offer member tickets with full hall access, public tickets with limited access and at the same time keep the PA department of revenue happy.  If the public likes what they see they could always join TCA to see the whole meet but at least you give people a taste of what York is like and the sellers more buyers. Its an easy way to get a new audience into the meet and allow the sellers the best opportunity for an honest return on their investment.  It would be nice to start hearing things that should be done for the benefit of the hobby instead of hearing things not for the benefit of the hobby.  

Reading the conversation immediately above, it occurred to me, I wonder if there would be insurance matters involved once "the public" were admitted.

Not sure if this was mentioned, but if each TCA member recruited just 1 new TCA member.  Possibly by inviting them to go to York with you and enjoy the fun, I bet we could increase attendance a bit.  I brought 2 new recruits this April, my son and JDaddy.

PJB posted:

Mallard4468 posted:

The various comments about TCA being an exclusionary organization and that somehow the concept of paying dues to be a member is archaic are nothing but a bunch of nonsense.  Every product, service, and organization that we use charges "dues" in some manner.  If you go to a comic book convention, concert, or sporting event, you pay a heck of a lot more than you pay for York.  If you want to access a website, you either pay for a subscription or you have look at ads.  You pay a monthly fee for internet access, phone service, utilities, etc.  If you are a member of a train club, you either pay dues or provide equipment, or both.  I'm a member of two shooting ranges - I guess they are exclusionary too, because if I don't pay my annual dues I can't use their facilities. 

All of this stuff costs money, and the money has to come from somewhere.  TCA has overhead too.  In what way is TCA exclusionary?  Aside from coughing up $50 to join, there are no other requirements - ANYONE can join.  

What are you talking about??

There are no dues to attend any comic book shows. You don't have to be a member of any organization to attend. Anyone can show up, pay admission and walk in.  Sports events - really?  You need to be a member of some association to be given access to a ballgame or they won't let you buy tickets and attend?  Concerts?  I go see every artist I want to without having to be a card-carrying member of any association.  Fancy that!

You seem to be very confused. You think paying for tickets for admission to an event is the same thing as needing to pay dues to be a member of an organization that then allows you to be considered as eligible for entry into that assocation's events. And you also seem to be confusing paying for a service, like Internet, phone or a plumber, as somehow the same as paying dues to be a member of an organization that then allows you to be considered as eligible for entry into that association's events. 

Not confused at all.  Many of the negative posts are saying that York is too expensive because one must pay dues AND a modest entry fee.  Even taking that viewpoint, paying for TCA and York is cheap compared to those other forms of entertainment.  And paying dues IS paying for a service.  Point is that you gotta pay to play.

TCA is a club.  York is one of that club's events.  Want to go?  Join the club.  Don't want to join?  Go to meets that have no rules.  

There seems to be little appreciation of the role that clubs like TCA and NMRA have played in bringing our hobby to where it is.  Those organizations have created and enforced technical and behavioral standards that have benefitted every train enthusiast.   

"Reading the conversation immediately above, it occurred to me, I wonder if there would be insurance matters involved once "the public" were admitted"  What do you think guest are classified as?  They are certainly not member of the club, they are members of the public.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

  E.D. can offer member tickets with full hall access, public tickets with limited access and at the same time keep the PA department of revenue happy.

No they can't and no it won't keep the tax man happy. If you read the article the Pa. tax folks said no public in the event anywhere in any of the halls period as part of the deal they made with the ED, just how do you interpret that to mean they could allow the public in the dealer halls?

I used to be a big proponent of allowing the public in until I learned of the tax reasons, then I thought how about the dealer halls? Apparently unless you want to tick off the tax man by trying to get more from the original deal they won't allow it. The tax man 1985 wanted to make everyone who sold at York collect sales tax, submit their names and addresses to the revenue and post a $200 bond to continue selling. The Ed was this close to moving the event to Timonium but the ED worked out a deal where by the dealers would be segregated from the regular joes to make policing and enforcement easier and gave the rest of the meet Isolated Sales status and apparently no public allowed was a stipulation, don't know why the article didn't go into detail.

Why is this so hard for some people to comprehend? Do you know more about the deal than the folks who set this up? Do you know of a little known loophole that others have missed? Is it some vast right wing conspiracy? Do you have photos and negatives of the tax man in a compromising position that can be used as leverage? If so lets bring those resources to bear, if not then let's just leave that greasy spot that used to be the dead horse we've beaten into oblivion to rest in peace.

Jerry

been following this,  here is my take,  as an x tca, member squeezed out,  $50 dues.,

out here is the west , ttos, cal steward,  lets any one who is a member of a train club in to their events,

tca as a monster club,  should promote all train clubs,  and as long as you belong to a train club,  your good to go,  lets say a 5-10 dollar entry fee,  for buyers, I would prefer a $1.00, donation, or pay what you can.

I still say the way the National TCA goes so does York.  The TCA as a whole needs to be attractive to members that will pay the dues.  Those new will go to York.  I don't have the answers as to how to attract new members on a national level but in my mind this is where it needs to be done.

tca as a monster club,  should promote all train clubs,  and as long as you belong to a train club,  your good to go,  lets say a 5-10 dollar entry fee,  for buyers, I would prefer a $1.00, donation, or pay what you can.

As far as I know the TTOS does not have the overhead of a museum and library to support. They are probably in a better position to be so magnanimous.
The TCA has both a museum and library that are nowhere near self-supporting. They need the membership dues to stay afloat. Since the York show is the main tangible benefit of belonging to the TCA, they'd loose members, and some of the money needed to stay solvent. (Numerous folks have stated that they only belong to attend the show).
Some folks, myself included, believe that the museum should either become self-supporting, or close. But that is easier said than done.

Its funny that nobody ever calls for the other clubs to offer their special items / services to members of the TCA. Can I get in early to the Lionel sale as a TCA member? - no. I remember when that event was open to all, without having to belong to a club to get in early for the best selection.

What about ending the show on Friday and just start a "new" show only in the dealer halls on Saturday/Sunday? Two separate train shows just back to back? 

Getting back to to attendence does the ED spend any of the profits on promotion? What do they do with the profit? The show has to generate a ton of money. Well into the six figures alone in the Orange Hall.

What about ending the show on Friday and just start a "new" show only in the dealer halls on Saturday/Sunday? Two separate train shows just back to back?

Just my opinion: The only thing keeping the "understanding" between Pennsylvania and the Eastern Division in place is good will. If the Eastern Division communicates with the proper officials, and gets their blessing, I guess it should be considered. I seriously doubt PA would go for it. They aren't stupid.

If such a work-around was OK, then why wouldn't they just say it's OK to open the dealer halls to the public.

And while I wrote earlier that the ED should keep the one-time guest rule, but drop the need for guest sponsorship, I have a feeling that Pennsylvania would not agree that unsponsored people are guests and not just members of the general public (thereby violating the agreement).

Charlienassau posted:

What about ending the show on Friday and just start a "new" show only in the dealer halls on Saturday/Sunday? Two separate train shows just back to back? 

 

Getting back to to attendence does the ED spend any of the profits on promotion? What do they do with the profit? The show has to generate a ton of money. Well into the six figures alone in the Orange Hall.

Didn't you guys go to any of the meetings with EDTCA? All of these questions were brought up and answered at these meetings.

Pete

Didn't you guys go to any of the meetings with EDTCA? All of these questions were brought up and answered at these meetings.

I am an Eastern Division member. In all the years I've been a member, I've only attended a few.  Normally I am long gone by the time the meeting is held. I wish the Eastern Division published minutes.

Didn't you guys go to any of the meetings with EDTCA? All of these questions were brought up and answered at these meetings.

Pete

For those of us who did not Pete, can you fill us in?