Attendance at York

mike.caruso posted:

Mo985 posted:

 

...the kids get cranky after a few hours of walking (they are 8 and 10),  as would my spouse, and they just don't have the interest that I do. 

 

Chris

Ultimately, it all boils down to this, IMO.  

Precisely. And that interest is not likely to be repeated, historically. Ever.

IMHO.

OGR Webmaster posted:

gftiv posted:

The difference between York and other show is attendees come with deep pockets. Then vendors bring better stuff. At local shows, anything over $100 is a hard sell.

A good show is more than just than selling products. A good show must also include opportunities to invest in the future of our business by playing to a larger, broader audience. That is missing at York.

A great observation Rich. As for the selling, how much stuff is purchased at the meet by TCA members who would have purchased it anyway from a store or mail order without the huge expense of the vendor attending a train club members only show? From an OGR type vendor standpoint (which includes Lionel, MTH, Atlas, etc.) it seems likely everyone in attendance has heard of the company prior to attending, so do you really get any new customer exposure for the expense?

Traindiesel posted:

... Anyway, the Meet is held by their members for their members.  Simple as that.  ...

Brian's comment is perhaps the most insightful post on the entire thread!

Although many of us didn't attend at the time -- in fact, some may not have even been born yet -- the first "York" quite possibly had NO VENDORS.  Just "members" gathering together to trade or buy/sell trains.

Now I'm not suggesting vendors aren't welcome now, because that would be foolish in today's world.  But it simply reminds us of the roots of this great semi-annual event.  And it should be something vendors (as well as other members) take into account when they offer ideas on how York should change.  I would also suggest that there might still be TCA members around who think it's arrogant of vendors to threaten non-attendance at York if registration/attendance numbers don't improve. 

I don't have any "silver bullet" answers here.  As someone in his late 50's now, I can honestly say that -- aside from seeing old and new friends each year -- my PRIMARY reason for attending York is more as an "industry show" rather than a "trading meet" or buying gobs of product.  Look at my York "musings thread", and you'll see what I'm trying to convey here.  I'm also just a 2-hour drive away, so that skews my thinking too.  Regardless of how I view things, vendor attendance is critical for me.  If York would for whatever reason trend back to the way it started decades ago, I would probably find little reason to attend anymore.  I would meet connecting with fellow hobbyists, but fortunately there's also Allentown to make that happen for me.

So the EDTCA directors walk a fine line here, and I completely understand it's impossible to please everyone.  On one hand, it's their event and they run it the way they (and presumably their membership-at-large) want.  And it has, after all, been run very successfully.  On the other hand, embracing change is never easy.  And remaining relevant in a sea of surrounding changes may be the most critical component for York's future success (however that is measured) -- more so now than ever before.

David

Mo985 posted:

As a "younger" guy so to speak, here are my thoughts on the factors involved in the attendance decline.

I firmly believe that the timing seems odd, Thursday through Saturday. Most people in my "demographic" aren't going to take the time off of work to go Thursday for a half day.  I realize this show is "by the members, for the members" and it seems that they may be catering more to the retired crowd? Last October was my first time attending and I took Friday off to go. I also live local, so no extra expenses there.

If people are thinking of going, they may end up on this forum and start reading about the event, and if Saturday is the only day they can go, it may be discouraging reading about people closing down, or whatnot at noon, or 1.

Chris

As a 27 year old and working professional, I completely agree.  I am in no way criticizing or trying to start an argument; however, if the TCA wishes to increase the number of younger people attending York, the days of the show need to be adjusted accordingly. 

Tyler

Well, what days do you suggest? I have always felt the days of the show were a little weird. I also work a 40-48 hour job every week. I go on Friday because that's the best day that fits in with my schedule. If I have to I take a day off from work. Back in the days when there was no Thursday, Friday was THE day to go. I could see trying to make Saturday a full day. I don't know how the vendors would feel about it. Most car shows I go to that are large events like York, Saturday is the best day of the show. Sunday is totally dead at those cars shows. No one who is coming from far away wants to go to the show on Sunday and then travel home that same day whether they are working like us, or are retired. So, IMHO, Sunday is completely out.

Hudson J1e posted:

As a 27 year old and working professional, I completely agree.  I am in no way criticizing or trying to start an argument; however, if the TCA wishes to increase the number of younger people attending York, the days of the show need to be adjusted accordingly. 

Tyler

Well, what days do you suggest? I have always felt the days of the show were a little weird. I also work a 40-48 hour job every week. I go on Friday because that's the best day that fits in with my schedule. If I have to I take a day off from work. Back in the days when there was no Thursday, Friday was THE day to go. I could see trying to make Saturday a full day. I don't know how the vendors would feel about it. Most car shows I go to that are large events like York, Saturday is the best day of the show. Sunday is totally dead at those cars shows. No one who is coming from far away wants to go to the show on Sunday and then travel home that same day whether they are working like us, or are retired. So, IMHO, Sunday is completely out.

Personally, if I can't go on the first day of any show, then I feel like I am missing something.  I am not saying the show has to be adjusted for me.  Just going forward, finding ways to make the show more "young people friendly" is definitely something to think about.

About those car shows:  Carlisle and Hershey start Wednesday!!  (and go through Saturday, which IS the big day....how is that for a motel bill?)  I have always thought the days of York were weird, but the bandit shows, not starting Monday, seem to offset some of it.   I was lucky in that my vacation time was cumulative and could do the weird days. With downsizing as seen this April,  I would vote for a weekend show.   You have to get there early for Friday, so....travel Friday, for and early Saturday, and get home late on Monday.  I was usually camping to cut costs when I attended car shows, because motels were hard to find, and, as at York, had rates jacked up with "event" pricing.  The cost of York, membership, and door fee....pittance..if you buy one lousy car.  Motels, restaurants, getting there...a biggie, and, maybe needs to be compacted, at least a possibility for the  bed and meals.   I saw a similar impact on collectibles at Carlisle car show I have been seeing at York for a few years.  Carlisle had less and less of the vintage/antique cars/parts and more and more of what I considered "used cars/late model junk".  Younger train people are interested in diesels; older train people are into steam.  My attendance at car shows has spiraled down the drain.  I notice Rich cited train shows that I think, and I have not attended the top two on his list above, are probably saturated with HO and N.  That thought has led to no effort to attend them on my part.  I very rarely find anything of interest at the third group, and, they remind me of the Blue Hall, where the dealers should just leave their stuff on the tables at York for six months, for it doesn't seem to change, and I see a lot of that in shows in that last group, that is the two "big?" traveling national shows.  And, there is a lot of HO and N, which is not what I am looking for at York.  (you can park free at York...not so, at those big two shows (that I have been to) which seem located to create that extra expense (excepting Wheaton).          If all us old coots are dying off and there is no interest in old trains, why are the prices so high on older stuff and little (IMO) is showing up at York?  If the market is vanishing, why is not all of that stuff, which is not a video game, being dumped quickly and cheaply?  What was in the new catalogs and what was shown in the Orange Hall was a yawner for me....the mfr.'s seem to make nothing new, of interest to me, but maybe that is part of the vicious circle some seem to think we are in.....fewer people=fewer trains=fewer people=glug, glug...down the drain.          I am not convinced.

Well gee I work too but take a few days to enjoy the hobby.  It's called vacation.  If I don't use it I loose it.  I always use at least 2 days in April and 2 in October.  Thursday noon is perfect for me to travel in the morning enjoy the show and then the next day leave around 2 or 3. 

If they start on Thursday earlier I'll adjust.

rrman posted:

And while this lively discussion is running, what is the current status of cell phones, photography, two way radios etc now at York?  Last I heard when a member a long while ago, all electronic devices were banned.  Wife and I have those cheapie Uniden handi-talkies we use at shows to call if we find something.  Are these allowed or banned, or banned only in certain halls?

Cell phones are allowed everywhere.  Still photography is allowed in the Vendor Halls Only (Orange and Purple).  2 way radios?  Who would use those now a days?

MartyE posted:

Cell phones are allowed everywhere.  Still photography is allowed in the Vendor Halls Only (Orange and Purple).  2 way radios?  Who would use those now a days?

Well we have just one cell phone between us, so if we had two (twice the expense plus roaming charge$$), you have to keep speed dialing other cell each time, while handi talkies are instantaneous talk.  Sometimes old school is still cool school.

MartyE posted: Cell phones are allowed everywhere.  Still photography is allowed in the Vendor Halls Only (Orange and Purple).  2 way radios?  Who would use those now a days?

The exceptions are the layouts in the member halls. You are allowed to take photos of the layouts even if they are in the member halls like the White Hall.

GMRS radios are cheap and some advertise a 24 mile range, plenty good for York. Some are pretty small.  You can get ear pieces for them too, even push to talk headsets.

When we go skiing at smaller ski areas, especially if we are cross-county skiing, people also question why we still use them until we get in an area that has no cell coverage*.  After my wife and I easily contact each other, they stop questioning.

*yes, you can lose contact with GMRS radios when users are on opposite sides of the mountain, but that happens less than losing cell coverage.

I have heard people saying that York is like preaching to the choir-no new converts there. However I would like to point out that the "choir" is where the offering plate gets filled..I have been to the World's Greatest Hobby Shows and to various Greenburg Shows and I have never spend over $200.00 at any of them. I have however spent well over a thousand (Many thousands as well) in the Halls on most of my York trips.

Scott Smith

Some sudden thoughts and second thoughts….

I've always thought that for show attendance and the hobby to grow it needs to be advertised more.  Much more.  I realize all model train related industries may not have an advertising budget, but it's interesting that hobby shops and even a few importers end up advertising their business for sale in the end.

Train shows are the result of the interest in the hobby.  The interest needs to be generated by the manufacturer/importers.  Sure, Lionel puts some starter sets in a few big stores, but no one knows they are there unless they go there to shop and happen to see them.  If this hobby was advertised and shoved down the public's throat like the Kardashian's, etc., more people might notice who normally wouldn't know the hobby still exists. 

When something is put in front of you, you're likely to check it out.  Which may eventually increase sales and attendance at events like the York Meet.

rrman posted:

MartyE posted:

Cell phones are allowed everywhere.  Still photography is allowed in the Vendor Halls Only (Orange and Purple).  2 way radios?  Who would use those now a days?

Well we have just one cell phone between us, so if we had two (twice the expense plus roaming charge$$), you have to keep speed dialing other cell each time, while handi talkies are instantaneous talk.  Sometimes old school is still cool school.

OK now I have to ask...who pays roaming charges anymore?  I guess what ever works for you.

What you all are saying is true to a point but you don't see many young people at york or famalies at that matter .Younger people need to get involed or this hobbey will die. Company need to make a product that is affordable so young couple could start something for their child.Get off the video game an get in the real world! Running your train from your phone is not what the hobby was for. Lots aluck affording a  i phone a wifi all the other coponets on Run!

There are a lot more kids with smart phones than there are with toy trains.  Seems like a logical progression for the hobby.

MartyE posted:

rrman posted:

Well we have just one cell phone between us, so if we had two (twice the expense plus roaming charge$$), you have to keep speed dialing other cell each time, while handi talkies are instantaneous talk.  Sometimes old school is still cool school.

OK now I have to ask...who pays roaming charges anymore?  I guess what ever works for you.

Well we have TraPhone and when out of area, phone shows roaming and deducts more units than if normal local or long distance call.  But that may just be TracPhone policy.  But we use the phone for emergencies not day to day yak-yak.

A few reactions to others' thoughts and one or two of my own:

The guy who said that York is by members and for members is on to something, I think. I joined TCA after attending York as a guest in October. But why did I attend York in the first place? Because I like O gauge trains, and York is the place to find them. York, like the TCA, is for the person who knows that he/she wants the big trains. The other shows have more people, sure, but York is an incredible concentration of things I am actually interested in, and all for sale!

So those who said York needs to be better publicized are also onto something. World's Greatest Hobby and the like are great for getting people interested in trains, but once someone decides that he or she is interested in S, O, or Standard, then they need to know that there is an organization they can join, and a huge show they can go to which is zeroed right in on the gauges they are interested in.

And here's the thing. Once you get those younger, newer hobbyists--the ones who know they like the big trains--into the member halls at York, they are going to see fancy new trains and beautiful old trains, and stuff they never dreamed existed, and there is a decent chance that they are going to see something on a table and fall in love with it right then and there. Or at least be intrigued enough to buy one if the price is right. And with the market being what it is, the price is going to be right for getting some young blood into old trains, especially ones in "runner" condition, which is where most of us start, I think. Not everyone in the younger generation is enchanted by electronics--there are several young and youngish people on this forum who are interested in traditional or tinplate trains. And there is no reason there can't be more of them, but first you have to get the potentials in the door and parade them past so many of those gorgeous things that they just can't resist anymore!

And I think getting them in the door requires a weekend show, as others have already said. Vacation? We are talking about the young hobbyist who is interested, not the veteran totally committed to the cause. Also about a person with younger children, who probably feels compelled to spend as much of that vacation as possible doing something the whole family can do together. I would think a Friday-Saturday show would be best: even if you lived far away, you could still attend a full day Saturday, and would need to take only one day off work for travel, assuming you work M-F.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. A really long post, and if you read it all you have my gratitude (and perhaps pity!)

Anyway, the moral of the story is that I think the young blood is out there, but you have to isolate the ones who like S, O or Standard gauge, and then get them in the door so they can be blown away.

The Eastern Division of TCA runs the York show as far as I know.  That is a member organization run for the benefit of the members.   I'm curious to know if any of the above posters have started a train show of their own to correct the problems of the York show? 

I haven't been to a "Greenburg/Greatest Show on Earth/GATS" type show in over 15 years.  For me it's a waste of time.  I can find more trains and merchandise that I am interested in (modern era) during the first hour at ANY hall in York, than I can in 5 years of going to the "large", "well attended", "well run" train shows mentioned in this thread.

BTW, this is not the only hobby that has decreased in the past twenty years.   I am sure that video games, social media and tech equipment has taken up any slack and income that was lost by this and other hobbies.  And from people of all ages, not just from young people.   

Its obvious that some posters as well as the vendors are trying to figure out how to get younger people into the hobby which is good.  Also consider that the NFL has an entire advertising campaign just to try and get kids to go outside and play for 60 minutes a day. 

The better run train shows do attract those younger people and families, but as a weekend event like going to the zoo.  You are going to need 3x to 4x of the attendance at those shows to even approach the dollars spent at York week.  I read that the economic impact analysis study for the York train show on the York area was $22.940 million dollars back in 2009.  So there are definitely some dollars out there for some new competitive train show to chase and capture.

Well maybe this post will stay up a little longer.

mwax516 posted:

Are there any other train shows that would compare size wise to York? Or that are becoming more popular?

springfield, mass.

Traindiesel posted:

I've always thought that for show attendance and the hobby to grow it needs to be advertised more.  Much more.  I realize all model train related industries may not have an advertising budget, ...

I've thought the same thing for a while, too.  The trick is reaching the people who may be interested and don't already know about the meet.

A commercial on local TV might work, and if there is no budget for that, reaching out to local news outlets (TV and newspapers) and suggesting they do a human interest story on the meet might get some free publicity.  Of course some emphasis would have to be placed on how to attend as a guest.

On a national level, if the TCA partnered with an outfit that could produce a video documentary on the York meet and it's history (perhaps as part of an overall TCA history), then an edited-down version of that documentary could be run twice a year as part of RFD-TV's "I Love Toy Trains" show rotation.  The full documentary could then be sold at shows and meets and online by the video producer, and the TCA could sell and maybe even show it (the edited version) at the museum, and use it for promotional purposes (such as prizes or as part of a pitch to local TV news outlets).  I know I would buy a TCA/York Meet documentary if one were available.

Andy

Popi posted:

mwax516 posted:

Are there any other train shows that would compare size wise to York? Or that are becoming more popular?

springfield, mass.

larger in attendance over twenty thousand but it's a mostly a HO show, sadly but with that said there's enough for most of us.  I usually find rare Weaver rolling stock at this show.

As a non TCA member I would like to offer some observations.  I attended last year as a guest, I had to go once to see what all the hype was about.  For the most part everything said was correct, it was a great experience.   I went on Friday, drove the 2+ hours each way and was spent the entire day, wished the day was longer.  Now would I do it again, not for the cost of membership because I see no continuing value in membership.  Since I have to join to attend another one I guess I will just have to miss out.  If I could attend for the cost of admission I would consider it but there is little to attract an "outsider".  Having attended other non train related venues attendance over 10,000 seems pretty good.  Running this event twice a year is also a major undertaking considering it is a multi day event.  I am not sure what the vendors are seeking here but I will do think the attendance will continue to decline as the current membership can no longer attend due to age,declining  health or worse.  I remember over 20 years ago attending an O Scale event in New Brunswick NJ.  It was packed and it was a multi day event.  That same venue several years ago in North Jersey had more people selling than in attendance.  My wife observed it was an aging hobby.  TCA has a larger following but absent an influx of new members I suspect the trend will continue until something changes.  The cliche is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.  I have no suggestion to offer as to engaging new members but can speak from experience that other member driven organizations are all suffering the same fate.  Existing members see value in what the organization once was, non members like myself don't quite see it the same way.  As to younger individuals, the next generation is either a group of non joiners or need to be engaged in different ways.  Maybe at some point this will become an annual event, that may drive attendance up since the opportunity to attend will be halved.  If I were sitting on the TCA board I would be advocating for open admission at least for one day during the event.

It may have been said before, but...

I think it's an issue about the changing metrics by which TCA and the York meets might be judged.

Perhaps show attendance is 'old shoe'. 

Scott Smith made an interesting observation several responses before mine...

"I have been to the World's Greatest Hobby Shows and to various Greenburg Shows and I have never spend over $200.00 at any of them. I have however spent well over a thousand (Many thousands as well) in the Halls on most of my York trips."

I think he makes a valid point.  A metric that tracked, say, 'transaction dollars per attendee' might tell a different story about the meet over time.  After all, some of us old pharts are in better shape to spend on a hobby in later years than we might have been in, say, our 20's...30's...even 40's/50's...(current 'economy', notwithstanding!).  Mortgages, kids, college expenses (pay off your own, start paying for the kids!!!), frequent moves/transfers, 'travelitis', keeping up with the Kardashians (), etc., etc., etc.........they all had a priority over the type of spending many of us find ourselves indulging in this hobby now at riper ages!  (And I do mean "riper"!)

But, fat chance you'll get York attendees....buyers, sellers, members, retailers, cottage industrialists, et al.....to report their meet financials in order to create a metric of that sort.  'None of your D___d business, Bubba/Bubbette!', is about as far as you'd get.  No doubt, though, that many, if not MOST, of us value the York meets for the opportunity to buy/sell....BIG time.   It has become fundamental to the 1200-mile round trip my wife and I make twice a year.

Sure, the camaraderie/socializing is part of the York 'schtick', if you will.  Trying to wrap that euphoria up into a new metric, however, is rather tough.    Number of handshakes/backslaps per attendee?  Probably not.  Besides, my own observation after several years worth of York meets is that the 'socializing' aspect is simply part of any gathering of folks having a common interest, and within the EDTCA, there are dozens of events, meetings, flea markets, shows, etc., for which the same bunches of backslappers get together and socialize.  York is probably not that special/unique in that regard. 

Well, enough of this rambling from this rambler.  The 'attendance metric' conundrum will continue ad infinauseum.  TCA, York, the hobby....they'll all find their way eventually. 

Oh, and Scott Smith?.....the other comment in your same response?.... "I have heard people saying that York is like preaching to the choir-no new converts there. However I would like to point out that the "choir" is where the offering plate gets filled."   Hoo, boy, now there's a good one!!  I 'll have to share that with the members of our church choir Thursday.  I imagine there'll be lots of  when challenged that it's clearly up to THEM to fill the offering plate!!!  I don't know about your church, pal, but most of the members of our small-but-mighty choir are giving most of what they have to share when they crank their voices up in melodious praise to The Almighty!! (1Pet4:10)KD

Andy Hummell posted:

Traindiesel posted:

I've always thought that for show attendance and the hobby to grow it needs to be advertised more.  Much more.  I realize all model train related industries may not have an advertising budget, ...

I've thought the same thing for a while, too.  The trick is reaching the people who may be interested and don't already know about the meet.

A commercial on local TV might work, and if there is no budget for that, reaching out to local news outlets (TV and newspapers) and suggesting they do a human interest story on the meet might get some free publicity.  Of course some emphasis would have to be placed on how to attend as a guest.

On a national level, if the TCA partnered with an outfit that could produce a video documentary on the York meet and it's history (perhaps as part of an overall TCA history), then an edited-down version of that documentary could be run twice a year as part of RFD-TV's "I Love Toy Trains" show rotation.  The full documentary could then be sold at shows and meets and online by the video producer, and the TCA could sell and maybe even show it (the edited version) at the museum, and use it for promotional purposes (such as prizes or as part of a pitch to local TV news outlets).  I know I would buy a TCA/York Meet documentary if one were available.

Andy

 

I strongly agree with this.  We at the NJ Hi-Railers run about 5 shows a year.  Last year we were able to get some air time on the local CBS radio station, on NJ News 1 and in the local papers.  Our attendance more than doubled for a couple of the shows.  To the point that the local PD stationed an officer with us for crowd control.  And you know what this cost?  Nothing!  Our secretary (Bob Iuliucci) just was VERY persistent in contacting various media outlets over time and you know what, it worked.

I think advertising and moving the York meet to Saturday & Sunday would do wonders for attendance.   And I think attendance is important.  Not because I didn't have a great time but because it will help the hobby grow (or at least shrink at a slower rate.)

Andy Hummell posted:

A commercial on local TV might work, and if there is no budget for that, reaching out to local news outlets (TV and newspapers) and suggesting they do a human interest story on the meet might get some free publicity.  Of course some emphasis would have to be placed on how to attend as a guest.

 

 

Last fall wa sky first time, and I went on Friday. That evening on the news, and on Saturday evening, I saw a segment on the local news about on e of the clubs in York having an open house that weekend, and they briefly mentioned "and there is also a train swap meet at the fairgrounds". 

I bet some prior coordination and planning could have gotten a better plug on the news!

Please not Sat. & Sunday. I would much rather see it All day Thursday  & all day Friday, & a half day on Sat.  Sat. afternoon & Sun. are travel days for most of us.

I didn't read every post, but I'd still offer the following newb-ish opinion:

I and others I know believe we are not welcomed at York.  It's often discussed as a "members only" event. I've been told by several dealers that the only way for me, a simple hobbyist, to attend is to go with them.  And, I am not allowed admittance on my own unless I am sponsored by an existing TCA member, join TCA and pay annual dues (all this just to attend a train show?).  If that's the rules, fine. But when I first heard this, it felt a little like the Masons, or Mob.  I've never really bothered pursuing it since, even though doing a very large O scale show is interesting - conceptually.   Seems awful uptight, formal and like a lot of trouble for a simple hobbyist interested in just building a pike in the basement with my twin little boys.  

On top of the negative specter hanging over York for people like me, it's also more feasible to do local shows, like the big West Springfield Massachusetts show .  No driving the better part of a day, no special initiation or double secret special handshake, no dues, and more convenient, without the airfare or gas/tolls and hotel bill.   Another setback is if you don't drive, you spend through the nose to ship goodies back to your domicile.  The biggest comic book show, San Diego ComicCon, has suffered as of late too for some of the same reasons.  I've seen many people complain that they spent $2,000 on hotel, airfare and food and then at the convention only found about  $1,000 worth of books they need. So they now own books valued at around $1,000 but that $1,000 cost them $3,000. 

Peter

Great forum topic. First is a disclaimer. I have never been able to attend a York show, I work full time and with the half day Thursday, full day Friday, half day Saturday schedule coupled with travel, makes it difficult to go.  The less than exciting reviews Saturday's receive make it hard to justify the time/money for going on the weekend. I do get to make it to Big E in West Springfield which is 1) well attended, 2)  held on Saturday and Sunday. 

Like many have stated membership requirement/cost is not prohibitive but rather something I'm not sure is a value to me. Can someone reiterate the tax advantage of being a member's only show. This may clear up many misunderstandings of why some of these policies are in place. And last but not least is the restricted photography/cell phone policy which seems antiquated. For those of us who are not in attendance pictures/videos of the meet would be most welcome, and likely to expand interest  in making the pilgrimage to York.

eddie g posted:

Please not Sat. & Sunday. I would much rather see it All day Thursday  & all day Friday, & a half day on Sat.  Sat. afternoon & Sun. are travel days for most of us.

Why Eddie? You are retired, does it matter which days it's held for a retired person? For us working stiffs who don't have a lot of vacation time having a full weekend and not just a half day on Saturday would be awesome.  Plus those with kids in school it would be better.

Now with that said, it's a private show run for and run by the TCA/eastern division, they can set the rules as they see fit but times are a changing and they better change with them or die.

I may not always make it twice a year but I try to get there once a year.  April works the best for me.  I need somewhere to spend my tax refund!  I still feel like a kid in a candy store and always find something I can't find anywhere else, even on Ebay. 

A few observations:  Thursday seem to always be the older crowd.  Friday has more families, larger crowds, and younger collectors.  When you work 50 hours a week like I do it's great to extend the weekend twice a year to have some fun. 

The Thursday night get together is always the most interesting time for meeting people from all different backgrounds.  This truly proves what is great about the hobby is people come from all walks in life but we share the same love of trains (maybe not sports teams).  I try to sit with someone different every year.  The worst that can happen is they could kick me out!

I will continue to try and make it York whenever I can and when I retire in about 5 years, I may be able to extend York for a whole week since there is a lot to do in the area that I never find time to do in 3 days.

Wonder if any EDTCA York people, chairman etc read these postings and just blow it off as whining by those engrates ?  "What, we don't need no stinkin changes, its just fine the way it is......"

My first time at York was this show.  Went this time because of a new interest in tinplate so I said ok, I'll spring for the 22$ to get in.  I was impressed to say the least.  Was only able to go to the show because, 1, I took Thursday afternoon and Friday as vacation time, 2, I was able to to stay with family nearby.  I agree with perhaps moving the days to include a full day Saturday, might help with attendance, because everyone know the last few hours folks are packing up to leave.  One other point to make is that I visited the PA RR museum in Strasburg, since I haven't been there for years.  I mentioned I had been at the York meet earlier, and the person replied " Yea I thought I heard there was something going on at York".  That said, yes, the word needs to go out, and perhaps the other RR type businesses could help, kinda scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.

Just sayin.....  BTW, I'll probably join and attend more shows, because 1, I hought it was great to see the wide variety and quantity of items there, 2 being able to talk to some really knowlegable people and 3, I KNOW I saved more than the cost of the whole trip to purchase the items that I did compared to TRYING to find them "in the bay" or any local train meet here in the VA area.... 

Three vendors said that they had a good show and two indicated that it was very good. One wants greater attendance and didn't mention profit but in his case he needs new subscribers probably to drive advertising dollars... Makes sense.

I go to some of the high volume shows and am not especially interested in HO, N, Thomas, etc. I am interested in O and S scale. Most who attend York likely feel the same way.

That significantly reduces the numbers but it gives O and S vendors the opportunity to focus on their primary customer base and to interact one on one. Most businesses would kill for this kind of marketing opportunity. Go where your potential customers are. Interact, do things well, say thanks, and I suspect that you will earn far more dollars as a result.

We like York as it is. Often we get ideas and later order, especially with bigger ticket items. It gives us the opportunity to put a name with a face even if we usually only connect on the Internet.

We will be there in October.

 

Wonder if any EDTCA York people, chairman etc read these postings and just blow it off as whining by those engrates ?  "What, we don't need no stinkin changes, its just fine the way it is......"

On the main section of the forum there's a loyal to us vendor announcing he's getting out of the O scale decal business. If a small business such as that can't find support here for a useful product why would anyone think there were enough of anyone else to listen to? By the time you sort out the perpetual haters from the rank and file, there's not really much of a complaint left.

I'm quite sure the TCA was started by adults.  It has always has been an adult hobby and will continue to be.  So all this talk about getting  more kids to the shows (or meets) doesn't seem to me as very helpful for promoting the hobby.  It is up to the family where the adult is interested in trains to see about getting his children interested.  His interest will wane, as yours did when you discovered girls and cars.  Nowadays you can add cell phones, and video games.  If the bug gets him again when he is an adult, he will then come to the hobby.   I was like the boy you saw in those Lionel ads getting a train for Christmas.  That interest only lasted a short time and didn't return until my own children were darn near teenagers.  They didn't join me.

I didn't even join the TCA until I retired and for a time got a layout going in my basement with my old Lionel from the 50s.  When I discovered the new stuff with DCS and TMCC, I parked my old Lionel on a shelf and jumped in with both feet, and started attending York.  Loved it.  Still love it at age 79.

Dennis

PJB posted:

I and others I know believe we are not welcomed at York.  It's often discussed as a "members only" event. I've been told by several dealers that the only way for me, a simple hobbyist, to attend is to go with them.  And, I am not allowed admittance on my own unless I am sponsored by an existing TCA member, join TCA and pay annual dues (all this just to attend a train show?).  If that's the rules, fine. But when I first heard this, it felt a little like the Masons, or Mob.  I've never really bothered pursuing it since, even though doing a very large O scale show is interesting - conceptually.   Seems awful uptight, formal and like a lot of trouble for a simple hobbyist interested in just building a pike in the basement with my twin little boys.  

On top of the negative specter hanging over York for people like me, it's also more feasible to do local shows, like the big West Springfield Massachusetts show . 

Peter

Peter;

I'm afraid you got some bad info. The requirement to be sponsored has been gone for a while. You can just go online to the TCA website and join. When you think about it for a minute, the TCA is no different than most national, organizations - there is an annual membership fee. If you see value in joining, than the dues are not an issue. As for the admission fee to the meet, it may be higher than most, but as the old saying goes, you get what you pay for, and in my limited experience, I have gotten more than my money's worth. I have attended twice, both times on Thursday and both times for three or so hours. I have found all the volunteers hosting the meet to be welcoming, friendly, and helpful. In addition, I have found the dealers to be willing to spend time talking to you, give advice, and I've yet to feel pressured to make a purchase. And in the course of a bit less than three hours last Thursday, I managed to spend almost $1,000 for some high quality merchandise for my now layout. And when I draw up the plans for the additional Mianne benchwork I discussed with Tim Foley, I'm sure I'll be over a grand.

I happen to like the Thursday, but I understand why those younger than me (and still working/with young families) might have a different perspective. But that being said, I think the Eastern Division has done a great job balancing the needs of the overall audience/community.

PJB posted:

I didn't read every post, but I'd still offer the following newb-ish opinion:

I and others I know believe we are not welcomed at York.  It's often discussed as a "members only" event. I've been told by several dealers that the only way for me, a simple hobbyist, to attend is to go with them.  And, I am not allowed admittance on my own unless I am sponsored by an existing TCA member, join TCA and pay annual dues (all this just to attend a train show?).  If that's the rules, fine. But when I first heard this, it felt a little like the Masons, or Mob.  I've never really bothered pursuing it since, even though doing a very large O scale show is interesting - conceptually.   Seems awful uptight, formal and like a lot of trouble for a simple hobbyist interested in just building a pike in the basement with my twin little boys.  

On top of the negative specter hanging over York for people like me, it's also more feasible to do local shows, like the big West Springfield Massachusetts show .  No driving the better part of a day, no special initiation or double secret special handshake, no dues, and more convenient, without the airfare or gas/tolls and hotel bill.   Another setback is if you don't drive, you spend through the nose to ship goodies back to your domicile.  The biggest comic book show, San Diego ComicCon, has suffered as of late too for some of the same reasons.  I've seen many people complain that they spent $2,000 on hotel, airfare and food and then at the convention only found about  $1,000 worth of books they need. So they now own books valued at around $1,000 but that $1,000 cost them $3,000. 

Peter

Wow that's pretty dramatic.