Attendance at York

Dennis LaGrua posted:

The discussion here is not how to replace York but to transform  the meet, to increase attendance,  make it more lively and profitable for everyone including the ED. The answer /statement that "why, we've been doing it this way for years" or"I like the meet just the way it is" no longer a valid argument in today's times.  Many share concerns about the lack of young people at York BUT yet they are shut out.  The objective of any business is to attract a diverse audience of all ages,  develop more business and make more money. This can't possibly be achieved with the same aging audience. 

Dennis, 

Your post totally aligns with my points earlier in this thread.  

There were a lot of organizations that had a similar paradigm - because they could. About 20 years ago, however, this thing came along called the Internet.  And, it changed everything. Over the years, it has made more and more such inroads into how people both interact and transact business.  People who are mentally stuck in routine or the last century have a lot of difficulty accepting the immense changes. 

I see an organization that charges dues and is sort of exclusionary, on top of all the effort and cost involved in going to the meet, as out of sync with the times  - especially when that organization is in a hobby that seems to be shrinking.  Reminds me a little of a girl my buddy met years ago in Florida on Spring Break that lived hours away from him.  Not much upstairs, and kind of abrasive, but she had this crazy figure and knew it. She played incredibly hard to get and had lots of guys after her. So my buddy would drive hours to see her and spoiled her rotten.  Then she put on weight and got less attractive.  And her personality didn't improve.  Far fewer guys chasing her, but she still played hard to get. Then the Internet came along. Lots of social networking, lots of nice girls available in the general area. Afte a while, my buddy figured out driving hours and going to so much trouble and expense didn't make a whole lot of sense, given all the new and potentially better options. 

 

In the past, representatives from the Eastern Division have stated that this is not possible, the "tax man" won't go for it.

Pont 1.

The reps aren't always as knowledgeable as they should be. Back before the photography rule was relaxed and ED rep told us here on the forum that it was because it was a fairgrounds rule against any photography at any event, which was to be quite frank, BS. I contacted the Fairgrounds and they told me that any rules like that are purely at the discretion of the event holders and the Fairgrounds takes no sides in such matters. When I called him on it he said ,"Well that's what someone else in the ED told him.", so the right hand doesn't always know what the left is doing here. It would be nice to see in the minutes of a meeting that someone was asked to contact the Pa. Tax Department and check into the feasibility of it but there never is.

Point 2.

To tell those of us who would like to see or at least see some discussion by the ED on the various concerns raised here that if we don't like it we should start our own show. That's a rather childish statement,as most of us do not have the resources, contacts or time to do such a thing and the ones making that statement know it but use it to dismiss those they disagree with. I don't have to be a chef who owns a 5 Star restaurant to know that something tastes like crap.

Point 3.

Not everyone who thinks there should be changes are outside agitators with their own agendas, many of us are in the TCA but get lumped in with the outsiders or are told to run for office if we want change, again many of us have full schedules that don't allow for this. We have elected office holders who are supposed to attend to member concerns.

Which brings up the Point 4.

If you are going to tell me to contact the ED whether a member or not to voice a concern/idea/complaint/question please provide a link of some sort or a phone number maybe a name would be nice. Now I am quite capable of finding this info myself but some aren't, at least meet them half way. Granted, most of the times I've sent off an email to the ED I never get a reply or I get a reply that has nothing to do with my question or worse they totally just go off the rails (no pun intended) with whatever my concern happens to be to the point where I just shake my head and wonder who was supposed to be watching this person today?

Well that's my York rant for the year, I may or may not go in the Fall, haven't decided yet, never been to Allentown, might be a nice change of pace.

Jerry

Dennis posted:

I'm quite sure the TCA was started by adults.  It has always has been an adult hobby and will continue to be.  So all this talk about getting  more kids to the shows (or meets) doesn't seem to me as very helpful for promoting the hobby. 

This statement perfectly summarizes why so many younger adults, like myself, stay away from the TCA.  People like this represent the TCA. It is this very "child-hating" attitude that scares kids from this hobby.

One possible way to change York would be to join the EDTCA and live within the Eastern division boundaries.  That would require joining the TCA also.

Then run for office and start working for the changes you want from within the organization.  It's kind of like the American political process.

Of course you would have to convince a majority of the other 6600 members to agree with your desired changes.  Once inside the organization you may have a better understanding of how the York show works as well as the PA tax implications which may modify your opinions.

Or you can vote with your feet and dollars and refuse to go to York until the show has been changed more to your liking. (The American free market system)

It is a member only organization.  The intent was to expel members who bounced checks, sold fake or modified items as genuine, etc.  In TCA you have a standards committee to set the guidelines.  There's also a grievance committee to settle disputes.  I'm not sure how those two areas are handled at the "better" and larger train shows.  I think their committees are both named "caveat emptor".  On more than one occasion I have been burned at public meets with no recourse.  At the York fairgrounds with the TCA member requirements,  you have a much better chance of not getting screwed or some recourse if you do.  At the York bandit meets, it's caveat emptor as well.  It's called bandit for a reason.

As a TCA member from another TCA division, I thank the Eastern division for the invitation to come to the York show as a guest of the Eastern division.

Man, is this a great country or what.

no, no, please don't delete this one too.

The various comments about TCA being an exclusionary organization and that somehow the concept of paying dues to be a member is archaic are nothing but a bunch of nonsense.  Every product, service, and organization that we use charges "dues" in some manner.  If you go to a comic book convention, concert, or sporting event, you pay a heck of a lot more than you pay for York.  If you want to access a website, you either pay for a subscription or you have look at ads.  You pay a monthly fee for internet access, phone service, utilities, etc.  If you are a member of a train club, you either pay dues or provide equipment, or both.  I'm a member of two shooting ranges - I guess they are exclusionary too, because if I don't pay my annual dues I can't use their facilities. 

All of this stuff costs money, and the money has to come from somewhere.  TCA has overhead too.  In what way is TCA exclusionary?  Aside from coughing up $50 to join, there are no other requirements - ANYONE can join.  

MartyE posted:

Again to all of the guys that want to "open it to the public", there are agreements with the PA tax man.  Now it's pretty easy to say well just have the vendor halls require a tax license...they already do.  I suspect there are a lot of other issues regarding the tax agreement that doesn't make it black and white.  Thing is I don't know and 95% or more of the people here don't either.

It's great to suggest ideas, it never hurts, but moaning and groaning on a forum when the EDTCA can't accommodate because of an agreement and then just bringing up over and over again isn't going to change things.  I suspect that the EDTCA is not blind to the attendance issue.  Maybe one of these ideas will be the "one".  

The tax issues got me interested in seeing what the laws actually state. After doing my best "Nancy Drew" impersonation, I'm now curious as to what type of "arrangements" the EDTCA has with the Dept. of Revenue. 

I found some literature online on the Revenue Dept website, and printed off two different pamphlets about selling items. they didnt really clear things up, so I called the question line.  I spoke with a PA Tax Dept. Specialist and she told me that at any event , such as the York meet, EVERYONE selling an item is supposed to have a tax license. (I didn't mention any names or "throw anyone under the bus") 

She said it didn't matter if it was a company, LLC, cooperation, or a private individual, they should all be charging PA state sales tax, and filing said taxes. She said it did not make a difference if they were in separate buildings, or if the event was "closed" or open to the public. She said that the law states that people selling in an area where there are competitor vendors required to have a tax license, requires every seller at that event to have a license. 

I looked on the EDTCA's site on the registration form, and it does mention that if you are a "member in a dealer hall, you need a PA tax license", but the way she explained it, everyone in the member halls should also have tax licenses as well? 061 PA Code § 32.4 deals with "isolated sales. That could be defined as you having a yard sale, but states that as soon as you take your own items to a flea market or swap meet, then you are required to get a sales tax license. There are other caveats talking about selling things less than 7 days out out the year, (both meets add up to 6) and businesses can be tax exempt if they took in less than 10k. 

I'm sure that the EDTCA is not breaking or ignoring any laws, but I am still curious as to how they classify the member halls in a way that the members with tables don't have to get a sales tax license? 

Regardless, I felt crappy about not going this spring, and will join TCA so that I can go to the upcoming meets. I wholeheartedly agree with the above comments that I want O gauge trains, and to talk to people about them, and York is the place to do that!

Mallard4468 posted:

The various comments about TCA being an exclusionary organization and that somehow the concept of paying dues to be a member is archaic are nothing but a bunch of nonsense.  Every product, service, and organization that we use charges "dues" in some manner.  If you go to a comic book convention, concert, or sporting event, you pay a heck of a lot more than you pay for York.  If you want to access a website, you either pay for a subscription or you have look at ads.  You pay a monthly fee for internet access, phone service, utilities, etc.  If you are a member of a train club, you either pay dues or provide equipment, or both.  I'm a member of two shooting ranges - I guess they are exclusionary too, because if I don't pay my annual dues I can't use their facilities. 

All of this stuff costs money, and the money has to come from somewhere.  TCA has overhead too.  In what way is TCA exclusionary?  Aside from coughing up $50 to join, there are no other requirements - ANYONE can join.  

What are you talking about??

There are no dues to attend any comic book shows. You don't have to be a member of any organization to attend. Anyone can show up, pay admission and walk in.  Sports events - really?  You need to be a member of some association to be given access to a ballgame or they won't let you buy tickets and attend?  Concerts?  I go see every artist I want to without having to be a card-carrying member of any association.  Fancy that!

You seem to be very confused. You think paying for tickets for admission to an event is the same thing as needing to pay dues to be a member of an organization that then allows you to be considered as eligible for entry into that assocation's events. And you also seem to be confusing paying for a service, like Internet, phone or a plumber, as somehow the same as paying dues to be a member of an organization that then allows you to be considered as eligible for entry into that association's events. 

Where does the perception come from that the York train meet or the TCA itself is unwelcoming or forbidding? Just curious how stuff like that gets started.

AUSSTEVE.....You got right.

Wow, five pages !   We can really beat a dead horse to death.....LOL

GregR posted:

Dennis posted:

I'm quite sure the TCA was started by adults.  It has always has been an adult hobby and will continue to be.  So all this talk about getting  more kids to the shows (or meets) doesn't seem to me as very helpful for promoting the hobby. 

This statement perfectly summarizes why so many younger adults, like myself, stay away from the TCA.  People like this represent the TCA. It is this very "child-hating" attitude that scares kids from this hobby.

It's the adults that expose the kids to the hobby . Children's time with trains is very transitory. Some might stick with it but other distractions such as girls, cars, video games, school/college gets in the way, then its careers and families. I'm an odd duck that stuck with it but most don't. You run into lots of people who can't believe that "Lionel" trains are still being made. Once the kids grow up and head on out then the parents have more free time, typically in their highest earning years  and that is when re-kindling occurs whether it might be trains, or golf, or boating, travel, etc. Kids are important but its the adults that will stick with it for 40+ years and with all of the $$ that goes along with it. The NMRA is doing the same thing ...its focusing on growing the the 40+ old group. Trains may have been more toy/kid focused in the 50's but that is no longer the case and it's not going to return to that.

As a TCA chapter president , we'll welcome anyone - and there are a number of younger adults who are very interested, but frankly in many cases, its the inability to shell out the annual national and division dues as their incomes are not very high as most is consumed with supporting their families and households. We'll see them at our annual open house and they may buy a couple token items but that's all they can afford. Income disparity continues to get worse - hobbies and the organizations that support them that can involve significant $$$ are not very high on their lists right now. The new members that we do get are again 40+ . York will remain a place that will be dominated by the older individual for a long time.

Peter

Dan Padova posted:

Wow, five pages !   We can really beat a dead horse to death.....LOL

Hi Dan, I'm not entirely sure that appraisal of what's been going on in this thread isn't just too simplistic. Are we "beating a dead horse," or are we afraid he is ill and passing away, right before our eyes, and we'd just like to see if there were something we could do to prevent such a loss?

The horse isn't dead yet, and we'd just like to save him, so we converse in hopes of finding a way to stop the train from plowing head-long and at full-force down the track.

Several good voices here have been making valid points. But how they all fit together to come up with a solution is what has been eluding us.

However, perhaps, we cannot stop that train, anymore than we could stop an earthquake.

FrankM.

Mo985 posted:

She said it didn't matter if it was a company, LLC, cooperation, or a private individual, they should all be charging PA state sales tax, and filing said taxes. She said it did not make a difference if they were in separate buildings, or if the event was "closed" or open to the public. She said that the law states that people selling in an area where there are competitor vendors required to have a tax license, requires every seller at that event to have a license. 

I looked on the EDTCA's site on the registration form, and it does mention that if you are a "member in a dealer hall, you need a PA tax license", but the way she explained it, everyone in the member halls should also have tax licenses as well? 061 PA Code § 32.4 deals with "isolated sales. That could be defined as you having a yard sale, but states that as soon as you take your own items to a flea market or swap meet, then you are required to get a sales tax license. There are other caveats talking about selling things less than 7 days out out the year, (both meets add up to 6) and businesses can be tax exempt if they took in less than 10k. 

You're right about it not being easy to find, I tried the Nancy Drew approach also! The person you talked to apparently is your standard issue government employee, some what knowledgeable but hardy an expert. She apparently didn't know about the Isolated sales rules:

It didn't copy and paste very well but you get the gist. I'm pretty sure that there are those who sell at several shows and probably should be collecting tax but fly under the radar, more power to them , STICK IT TO THE MAN !!!

jmiller320 posted:

Any dealers that displayed in the dealer hall care to comment how much it cost them to attend the show and sell your products?

Each October and April that I happily and excitedly displayed and sold in my booth in the Orange Hall, it cost me approx. $1,500, which included the booth fee, gas, lodging from Wednesday to Sunday, inclusive, for my Holiday Inn Express rooms (Lancaster), one for my helper and one for me, plus lunches and dinners, and I considered that reasonable compared to what I carried home jammed into my pockets, frankly.

Aside from presentations in OGR of my layout, the TCA Meets at York were the primary way I got my message out there, which means I discovered whether what I was offering had any customer-base at all, and if what I was offering was of value to other hobbyists. I found out it was. I learned that what I made addressed a narrow, special niche in our hobby, which was good enough and totally satisfying for me, as Layout Refinements. Mr. Richard Kughn became a customer, because he saw my work in-person at York. Lionel  (!) became a client because of its representatives meeting me and seeing my work displayed @ York. Tony Lash became a customer who used to carry arms-full of my product out of the booth, as did many fine other return-customers, who attend this forum, and met me @ York and took product home with them. I still have more clients and customers than I can keep up with ,THANKS  to having established my "brand" (as Jim Elster [Scenic Express] termed it) @ York. Establishing a presence @ York MADE my business happen.

FrankM.

Two additional things I wish to contribute.

As they say, “Taxes and death are inevitable”. I have a very good friend, who happens to be a customer, who happens to be a TCA member, who I happen to see last weekend at York and so happens to be a senior tax auditor for the State of Pennsylvania. Though his area of expertise is fuel tax auditing, he knows ALL the laws thoroughly! Prudently, he is aware of the relationship between the TCA and the PA Dept. of Revenue. But don’t fear, he is cool about it and wishes not to make waves. He’s much like us, just loves his trains. In the past he and I have discussed this issue several times and according to him “every vendor regardless of association membership must pay sales tax on every sale”. Without reciting a lot of legal precedence’s he simply stated that we are lucky so far as to be cruising below the radar and in a zone that is often overlooked by auditors. He said we are lucky UNTIL someday there will be a young tax auditor full of **** & vinegar that will want to prove his salt and raise the issue so loudly that his superiors must act. I think the Eastern Division fears this scenario and does not want to bring to light their low key arrangement. Being a business owner in Pennsylvania I know that the tax auditors are becoming more and more aggressive. They are giving small business like mine a hard time; collecting as much as they can, closing loopholes and denying common deductions and write-offs. Pennsylvania is again broke and desperate for revenue. They’re always on the lookout for new sources. I believe that it’s just a matter of time before they come knocking. The writing will soon be on the wall. So be prepared, not for death… but taxes!

The other thing that many of you may not be aware of is that there was a meeting with the Eastern Division and the several major manufacturers Friday afternoon. It did not go well. From my understanding a line was drawn in the sand which apparently rattled the ED chair people. I wish not to divulge details, but most of you can probably guess what the issues were concerning.

Personally things like this I don’t like to see. What I cherish with our association is the enthusiasm and passion we all express for our hobby. York for me is a goose that lays golden eggs. IMO it is still one of the finest events I attend. The ED/TCA are far from perfect but like Frank said above, it does have the potential to grow and become better if we all grow-up, stop quibbling and begin pulling in the same direction. Every question has an answer and every crisis has a solution. We must pull our accumulative talents and be creative for TCA to continue for generations to come. I often refer to Frank Mullen’s signature quotation, “Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge has limits.

Jim

You're cool, Jim. Thanks.

And Thanks for so much good advice and encouragement all along the way! And those wonderful products! I couldn't have done it without you!

FrankM.

PJB posted:

I didn't read every post, but I'd still offer the following newb-ish opinion:

I and others I know believe we are not welcomed at York.  It's often discussed as a "members only" event. I've been told by several dealers that the only way for me, a simple hobbyist, to attend is to go with them.  And, I am not allowed admittance on my own unless I am sponsored by an existing TCA member, join TCA and pay annual dues (all this just to attend a train show?).  If that's the rules, fine. But when I first heard this, it felt a little like the Masons, or Mob.  I've never really bothered pursuing it since, even though doing a very large O scale show is interesting - conceptually.   Seems awful uptight, formal and like a lot of trouble for a simple hobbyist interested in just building a pike in the basement with my twin little boys.  

On top of the negative specter hanging over York for people like me, it's also more feasible to do local shows, like the big West Springfield Massachusetts show .  No driving the better part of a day, no special initiation or double secret special handshake, no dues, and more convenient, without the airfare or gas/tolls and hotel bill.   Another setback is if you don't drive, you spend through the nose to ship goodies back to your domicile.  The biggest comic book show, San Diego ComicCon, has suffered as of late too for some of the same reasons.  I've seen many people complain that they spent $2,000 on hotel, airfare and food and then at the convention only found about  $1,000 worth of books they need. So they now own books valued at around $1,000 but that $1,000 cost them $3,000. 

Peter

I joined the TCA in 2001. Not once have I ever heard York called a "members only" event. While it is true that it is for members only or one time guests I am just saying that I never heard it called that. It's a shame that those dealers gave you that misinformation about how you couldn't go on your own.

Here's my story: I got back into this hobby around 1996. Back then OGR Magazine was owned by Myron Biggar. At least once a year there was a 3 or 4 page article which reported everything going on at York as well as any news that came out at York. These articles really made me want to attend York and by the year 2000 the itch to go to York was greater then ever but I wasn't a TCA member and I didn't know anyone who was. First I tried to call a local Lionel Authorized Repair Center to sign the TCA form for me but they wouldn't do it. They were very polite but said in a nice way that they didn't know me. I didn't get angry over this as it made sense to me. In my opinion the rule was in place to keep shady people or folks that weren't honest out. Well, instead of feeling that the TCA was some secret society of elite people that I would never get into I decided to persevere. In October 2000 I joined this forum. It wasn't too long after that that I started noticing that folks would come on here looking for people to sign for them to get into the TCA. So I tried the same thing and multiple people offered to sign my TCA form. The first person was a local guy who went by the handle of ToyTrains1. I got to go over his house to get his signature for the form and since I was there he showed me his collection and layout. Wow! That was an awesome night. The second person was (current) OGR Editor Allan Miller. I mailed him the form in a SASE and he signed it and when I got it back I sent it in and joined the TCA. I guess I just looked at it in a different way than you did.

Peter, please don't misunderstand me but in re-reading your above post you seem to say (at least to me) that you wouldn't be attending York anyway even if you didn't have to pay any dues. You yourself mention the airfare, gas, tolls, hotel bill, cost of shipping trains back, and the better part of a day driving. So if you wouldn't be going anyway why are you so against the TCA? No disrespect intended. I'm just curious.

PJB posted:

Mallard4468 posted:

The various comments about TCA being an exclusionary organization and that somehow the concept of paying dues to be a member is archaic are nothing but a bunch of nonsense.  Every product, service, and organization that we use charges "dues" in some manner.  If you go to a comic book convention, concert, or sporting event, you pay a heck of a lot more than you pay for York.  If you want to access a website, you either pay for a subscription or you have look at ads.  You pay a monthly fee for internet access, phone service, utilities, etc.  If you are a member of a train club, you either pay dues or provide equipment, or both.  I'm a member of two shooting ranges - I guess they are exclusionary too, because if I don't pay my annual dues I can't use their facilities. 

All of this stuff costs money, and the money has to come from somewhere.  TCA has overhead too.  In what way is TCA exclusionary?  Aside from coughing up $50 to join, there are no other requirements - ANYONE can join.  

What are you talking about??

There are no dues to attend any comic book shows. You don't have to be a member of any organization to attend. Anyone can show up, pay admission and walk in.  Sports events - really?  You need to be a member of some association to be given access to a ballgame or they won't let you buy tickets and attend?  Concerts?  I go see every artist I want to without having to be a card-carrying member of any association.  Fancy that!

You seem to be very confused. You think paying for tickets for admission to an event is the same thing as needing to pay dues to be a member of an organization that then allows you to be considered as eligible for entry into that assocation's events. And you also seem to be confusing paying for a service, like Internet, phone or a plumber, as somehow the same as paying dues to be a member of an organization that then allows you to be considered as eligible for entry into that association's events. 

Let's take Sand Diego's Comic Con for example since I believe it is the largest show of it's kind and York is the largest O and S scale show of it's kind so let's compare the prices of the two shows.

Peter, yes there are no dues to attend comic book shows but I think the point Mallard4468 was trying to make is they are going to get you one way or another. York costs me $78 to attend every year. That's $50 for dues and $14 for registration times two (I register early to get the discount). I get six days for that $78 while if I wanted to attend Sand Diego's Comic Con it would cost me $165 for just 3 days (Thursday, Friday, and Saturday).

The other thing that many of you may not be aware of is that there was a meeting with the Eastern Division and the several major manufacturers Friday afternoon.

When I first started attending York train shows in the mid 1980's, I think the number of dealers, and their importance was very different. The dealer halls were the yellow, which was under the grandstands, and another small hall, which was half filled with some sort of cages. There could not have been all that many dealers.

With the opening of the orange hall, the number and significance of the dealers seems to have changed. They became much more important to the show, with many operator type folks preferring to spend their show time there.  (IMHO, this was no big deal, collectors still had their member halls).

When the show went to three days, the commitment and expenses for both member table holders and dealers increased. (I'd guess it increased more for member table holders than for dealers). I think that a lot of casual member table holders dropped out. The Eastern Division responded by allowing individuals to get more than one table. The halls remained full, but most of the remaining member table holders seemed to be more of the quasi-dealer types, as opposed to casual sellers. I know a number of people, myself included, who no longer get tables. It seems that over the past few years, the dealers are finding that the overhead of a three day show is making the show not worth doing.

Some folks think the answer is to open the show (at least partially) to the public.

Another possibility is to change the show once again.
Go back to a two day show, which would lower the overhead for member table holders and dealers.
Maybe some of those who dropped out will come back.

And maybe the show cannot be all things to all people.

IMHO, no comparisons to other shows or other organizations are valid, unless those other organizations have the similar overhead of a museum and library to support.

Finally, while I guess its important for the TCA and the Eastern Division to meet with participating manufacturers, the TCA does not exist as their promotional arm. I'd like to know what those manufacturers are doing to promote and "grow the hobby".  How about some cash to support the museum and library?

1. baltimoretrainworks posted:

Mo985 posted:

She said it didn't matter if it was a company, LLC, cooperation, or a private individual, they should all be charging PA state sales tax, and filing said taxes. She said it did not make a difference if they were in separate buildings, or if the event was "closed" or open to the public. She said that the law states that people selling in an area where there are competitor vendors required to have a tax license, requires every seller at that event to have a license. 

I looked on the EDTCA's site on the registration form, and it does mention that if you are a "member in a dealer hall, you need a PA tax license", but the way she explained it, everyone in the member halls should also have tax licenses as well? 061 PA Code § 32.4 deals with "isolated sales. That could be defined as you having a yard sale, but states that as soon as you take your own items to a flea market or swap meet, then you are required to get a sales tax license. There are other caveats talking about selling things less than 7 days out out the year, (both meets add up to 6) and businesses can be tax exempt if they took in less than 10k. 

You're right about it not being easy to find, I tried the Nancy Drew approach also! The person you talked to apparently is your standard issue government employee, some what knowledgeable but hardy an expert. She apparently didn't know about the Isolated sales rules:

f your yard sale qualifies as an isolated sale,

you do not need a license or to collect sales tax.

An isolated sale is an infrequent sale of tangible

property by someone who is not in the business

of selling that property and does not hold

reoccurring sales more frequently than three times

a year or for more than seven days total in a year.

 

It didn't copy and paste very well but you get the gist. I'm pretty sure that there are those who sell at several shows and probably should be collecting tax but fly under the radar, more power to them , STICK IT TO THE MAN !!!

I'm pretty sure also that many businesses that get special tax breaks or incentives much like the ED does for various reasons, most likely they bring in big tax money on hotel/motel, restaurants, side trips to outlet centers and other tourist attractions so they get a special deal. But I will put my money where my mouth is and try to contact the ED to see if anyone's floated a trial balloon with the revenuers about if they allowed the public in only the dealer halls would that work. Altho if you think about it, doesn't the Isolated Sales rule kind of negate the "special tax deal" they have at York?

Any who , I'll keep you posted on what I hear from the ED.

 

Jerry

am h

As I mentioned and quoted from the specific code cited in my post: when they sell where others are selling, they need to get a license. I did speak with her about isolated sales, and she quoted me the number and subsection. The very last line in the subsection specifies this. 

If you followed the exact letter of the law, having a "block or neighborhood" yard sale would also require each "family" to have a sales tax license. 

I wonder if the "closed" policy was a previous version of a code that has since been changed? The rep I spoke with said taxes made no difference wether it was open to the public or not. This may also be the reason they don't really advertise, not wanting to draw any "unnecessary" attention to the meet?

Wow this is really bugging some people to the point they are calling the PA tax man?  More power to you I guess.

If I remember correctly there was an issue of OGR where the EDTCA explained the whole open / closed meet thing.  Maybe one of the fine OGR folks can find it and post it here.

On a side note, I do think the exchange of ideas is great.  Hopefully something here might help but again I feel that unless more folks are going to join the TCA in general then York will continue to loose attendance so in my mind the way to increase attendance is to sign up more TCA members nationwide.

 A Business requires a license to operate and collect tax. Business is the operative word. But keep bringing up the tax issue ,,,

A Business requires a license to operate and collect tax. Business is the operative word. But keep bringing up the tax issue 

What is the source of your information?

Here in NYS, every table holder at a train show/meet is required to have a NYS tax number. Reporting forms must be filed annually, regardless of whether any sales were made that year. Failure to do so can result in costly fines.
Show promoters are required to collect table holder's tax numbers.

It sounds like Pennsylvania has similar rules.

individual people can talk to individuals working for the PA tax department all they like. The tax department person may not be aware of the arrangement the Eastern Division has with the state of Pennsylvania.

Could Pennsylvania decide to end the arrangement?..... certainly they can!
But it won't be a line person making that decision.
It will be a political decision made higher up.

DennisB posted:

 A Business requires a license to operate and collect tax. Business is the operative word. But keep bringing up the tax issue ,,,

I think it's called "Poking the Badger".

Hudson J1e posted:

PJB posted:

Mallard4468 posted:

The various comments about TCA being an exclusionary organization and that somehow the concept of paying dues to be a member is archaic are nothing but a bunch of nonsense.  Every product, service, and organization that we use charges "dues" in some manner.  If you go to a comic book convention, concert, or sporting event, you pay a heck of a lot more than you pay for York.  If you want to access a website, you either pay for a subscription or you have look at ads.  You pay a monthly fee for internet access, phone service, utilities, etc.  If you are a member of a train club, you either pay dues or provide equipment, or both.  I'm a member of two shooting ranges - I guess they are exclusionary too, because if I don't pay my annual dues I can't use their facilities. 

All of this stuff costs money, and the money has to come from somewhere.  TCA has overhead too.  In what way is TCA exclusionary?  Aside from coughing up $50 to join, there are no other requirements - ANYONE can join.  

What are you talking about??

There are no dues to attend any comic book shows. You don't have to be a member of any organization to attend. Anyone can show up, pay admission and walk in.  Sports events - really?  You need to be a member of some association to be given access to a ballgame or they won't let you buy tickets and attend?  Concerts?  I go see every artist I want to without having to be a card-carrying member of any association.  Fancy that!

You seem to be very confused. You think paying for tickets for admission to an event is the same thing as needing to pay dues to be a member of an organization that then allows you to be considered as eligible for entry into that assocation's events. And you also seem to be confusing paying for a service, like Internet, phone or a plumber, as somehow the same as paying dues to be a member of an organization that then allows you to be considered as eligible for entry into that association's events. 

Let's take Sand Diego's Comic Con for example since I believe it is the largest show of it's kind and York is the largest O and S scale show of it's kind so let's compare the prices of the two shows.

Peter, yes there are no dues to attend comic book shows but I think the point Mallard4468 was trying to make is they are going to get you one way or another. York costs me $78 to attend every year. That's $50 for dues and $14 for registration times two (I register early to get the discount). I get six days for that $78 while if I wanted to attend Sand Diego's Comic Con it would cost me $165 for just 3 days (Thursday, Friday, and Saturday).

 

Not saying this applies to you, but most people engaged in this discussion are so incredibly interested  in furthering their own agendas they aren't receptive to other opinions. But here goes:

To recalibrate- I started by saying I was relatively new to this and that I very much want to attend York. But wanted to point out that dealers - in Connecticut, Rhode Island, 2 in Massachusetts, 3 in Nassau County and one in Brooklyn - have told me (and others) that you simply cannot. Not without being brought in by a member. And then never again unless you are sponsored by a member and accepted as a member yourself by TCA. 

I said that, given all the inherent trouble and expense already associated with attending an out of town event, this extra hoop made it less attractive.  Again, want to attend, just less attractive.  And the reason I surfaced all this was simply as a data point so anyone who cares about TCA and York would have another view  

And, I'm glad you brought up San Diego ComicCon. I think it is NOT analogous. That event is a media extravaganza. It is attended by entire casts from films and TV. Like the cast from Star Trek, Star Trek Next Generation, Thor, Iron Man, Superman, Batman, Avengers and Twilight to name just a very few.  People like Bill Shatner, Robert Downey Jr., Leonard Nimoy (well, used to), Ben Affleck, Chris Hemsworth, Scarlett Johanssen and the list goes on and on.  And the are all on panels and available to speak with, take photos and autograph opportunities (yes, these are cost extras).  Every major film studio is represented, every major comic book and graphic arts publisher, manga and other media.  The world of animation, toys, makers and others are all there in force.  There are film events and panels with these stars, an entire section where Lego sets up and there are constant valuable give-always. This description just scratches the surface of all the events. It also goes on for 5 solid days. Your transportation is included, via bus service that runs around town from early till very late.  And then there is the comic book aspect. Every major dealer, very many legends in the hobby including artists, writers, etc. are all there. Stan Lee included. Finally, and probably most importantly, despite the show's name being a total misnomer as ComicCon is a film and media extravaganza, there is no parent association to join and anyone is allowed entrance like to any ballgame, concert, Broadway show, etc.

Now, I've never attended York, but am in right in saying that comparing York to ComicCon is like comparing apples and bowling balls - at best? 

MartyE posted:

DennisB posted:

 A Business requires a license to operate and collect tax. Business is the operative word. But keep bringing up the tax issue ,,,

I think it's called "Poking the Badger".

Sorry Marty, but when curious individuals who are not part of ED "management" start calling the tax authorities, I think the correct term is whacking the badger up side of the head with a pressure treated two by four 

To recalibrate- I started by saying I was relatively new to this and that I very much want to attend York. But dealers - in Connecticut, Rhode Island, 2 in Massachusetts, 3 in Nassau County and one in Brooklyn - have told me (and others) that you simply cannot. Not without being brought in by a member. And then never again unless you are sponsored by a member and accepted as a member yourself by TCA. 

Technically the dealers were partially correct.
What they did not tell you is that the Eastern Division has people at the ready to sign you in as a guest, and that TCA membership has not required any sponsors for several years now.
The fact that so many dealers did so is not helpful to the TCA.

I don't mean to turn this back on you, but how long have you been reading the OGR board?
I ask because the subjects of guest attendance and joining the TCA are often discussed here.

IMHO, this is an indication that the Eastern Division and the TCA needs to do a better job of getting the word out.
Word of mouth isn't doing it.

MartyE posted:

If I remember correctly there was an issue of OGR where the EDTCA explained the whole open / closed meet thing.  Maybe one of the fine OGR folks can find it and post it here.

Also, the TCA published the original correspondence regarding this agreement in an issue of the Quarterly a couple of years ago including the PA Revenue Dept.'s agreement on the matter.

Andy

Now, I've never attended York, but am in right in saying that comparing York to ComicCon is like comparing apples and bowling balls - at best? 

Nope. You write that every major player in their world is there. Same can be said about the York train show. The York show has shuttle busses for those who need them. I'd rather walk. It's faster, and there is no waiting.

C W Burfle posted:

Now, I've never attended York, but am in right in saying that comparing York to ComicCon is like comparing apples and bowling balls - at best? 

Nope. You write that every major player in their world is there. Same can be said about the York train show. The York show has shuttle busses for those who need them. I'd rather walk. It's faster, and there is no waiting.

As I said, agenda focused.

The expanse and breadth of the show - the entire substance of the post - glad you completely skipped over all of that.   

I want to Thank Rich for keeping this thread open first. So lets get away from the Tax issue for awhile and back to the matter at hand. Instead of saying what is wrong with the show.

How do we increase attendance at York?

Moonson posted:

jmiller320 posted:

Any dealers that displayed in the dealer hall care to comment how much it cost them to attend the show and sell your products?

Each October and April that I happily and excitedly displayed and sold in my booth in the Orange Hall, it cost me approx. $1,500, which included the booth fee, gas, lodging from Wednesday to Sunday, inclusive, for my Holiday Inn Express rooms (Lancaster), one for my helper and one for me, plus lunches and dinners, and I considered that reasonable compared to what I carried home jammed into my pockets, frankly.

Aside from presentations in OGR of my layout, the TCA Meets at York were the primary way I got my message out there, which means I discovered whether what I was offering had any customer-base at all, and if what I was offering was of value to other hobbyists. I found out it was. I learned that what I made addressed a narrow, special niche in our hobby, which was good enough and totally satisfying for me, as Layout Refinements. Mr. Richard Kughn became a customer, because he saw my work in-person at York. Lionel  (!) became a client because of its representatives meeting me and seeing my work displayed @ York. Tony Lash became a customer who used to carry arms-full of my product out of the booth, as did many fine other return-customers, who attend this forum, and met me @ York and took product home with them. I still have more clients and customers than I can keep up with ,THANKS  to having established my "brand" (as Jim Elster [Scenic Express] termed it) @ York. Establishing a presence @ York MADE my business happen.

FrankM.

Things we don't think about, like the cost of doing business at the meet.  Wow, $1500.00 !  Quite a bit of money.  I have sold at train meets in the distant past.  A table cost me $15.00 !   And there was never any hotel fees or tax man to worry about.  

I'm glad to hear that you covered your fees and still made money.  

Hudson J1e posted:

PJB posted:

I didn't read every post, but I'd still offer the following newb-ish opinion:

I and others I know believe we are not welcomed at York.  It's often discussed as a "members only" event. I've been told by several dealers that the only way for me, a simple hobbyist, to attend is to go with them.  And, I am not allowed admittance on my own unless I am sponsored by an existing TCA member, join TCA and pay annual dues (all this just to attend a train show?).  If that's the rules, fine. But when I first heard this, it felt a little like the Masons, or Mob.  I've never really bothered pursuing it since, even though doing a very large O scale show is interesting - conceptually.   Seems awful uptight, formal and like a lot of trouble for a simple hobbyist interested in just building a pike in the basement with my twin little boys.  

On top of the negative specter hanging over York for people like me, it's also more feasible to do local shows, like the big West Springfield Massachusetts show .  No driving the better part of a day, no special initiation or double secret special handshake, no dues, and more convenient, without the airfare or gas/tolls and hotel bill.   Another setback is if you don't drive, you spend through the nose to ship goodies back to your domicile.  The biggest comic book show, San Diego ComicCon, has suffered as of late too for some of the same reasons.  I've seen many people complain that they spent $2,000 on hotel, airfare and food and then at the convention only found about  $1,000 worth of books they need. So they now own books valued at around $1,000 but that $1,000 cost them $3,000. 

Peter

I joined the TCA in 2001. Not once have I ever heard York called a "members only" event. While it is true that it is for members only or one time guests I am just saying that I never heard it called that. It's a shame that those dealers gave you that misinformation about how you couldn't go on your own.

Here's my story: I got back into this hobby around 1996. Back then OGR Magazine was owned by Myron Biggar. At least once a year there was a 3 or 4 page article which reported everything going on at York as well as any news that came out at York. These articles really made me want to attend York and by the year 2000 the itch to go to York was greater then ever but I wasn't a TCA member and I didn't know anyone who was. First I tried to call a local Lionel Authorized Repair Center to sign the TCA form for me but they wouldn't do it. They were very polite but said in a nice way that they didn't know me. I didn't get angry over this as it made sense to me. In my opinion the rule was in place to keep shady people or folks that weren't honest out. Well, instead of feeling that the TCA was some secret society of elite people that I would never get into I decided to persevere. In October 2000 I joined this forum. It wasn't too long after that that I started noticing that folks would come on here looking for people to sign for them to get into the TCA. So I tried the same thing and multiple people offered to sign my TCA form. The first person was a local guy who went by the handle of ToyTrains1. I got to go over his house to get his signature for the form and since I was there he showed me his collection and layout. Wow! That was an awesome night. The second person was (current) OGR Editor Allan Miller. I mailed him the form in a SASE and he signed it and when I got it back I sent it in and joined the TCA. I guess I just looked at it in a different way than you did.

Peter, please don't misunderstand me but in re-reading your above post you seem to say (at least to me) that you wouldn't be attending York anyway even if you didn't have to pay any dues. You yourself mention the airfare, gas, tolls, hotel bill, cost of shipping trains back, and the better part of a day driving. So if you wouldn't be going anyway why are you so against the TCA? No disrespect intended. I'm just curious.

I have a similar mind-set, Phil.  If I didn't, I would not have become a union carpenter.  

Charlienassau posted:

 

How do we increase attendance at York?

 

I think some of the suggestions of interactive activities and advertisement are good ones.  I also thing again the TCA in general has to be better at attracting new blood.  If the York Meet is to remain a members only event for the most part then the TCA at the national level has to do more to get folks to join.

I'm starting to get the uncomfortable feeling that somebody along the way of this conversation is not going to be happy until they make enough glib banter to get extra prick-points by causing trouble enough to have the whole apple-cart, as it relates to PA Taxes and our TCA Meet @ York, overturned, upturned and messed-up.

YEEEgods, isn't there some point at which we stop trying to be right and clever and concern ourselves with not causing damage to the whole?

And isn't there something  to be said for simply co-operating and being grateful for the opportunity? (However, I admit, previous discussions about cameras and phones seem to have benefited the group as a whole. It is probably the rare contemporary, new to the hobby, who would not look at you like you were a deranged dinosaur if you told them not to use their cellphones in a hobby-hall.)

After every Meet, I dutifully replied to the notice from PA and TCA to pay the appropriate tax collected and send it to the proper authority. No problem at all.

And here's a story of note, from several years ago. A friend who had been displaying at a train-show @ Edison, NJ had neglected to pay taxes on what he had been selling over some time. At one show, the tax authorities came into the venue unannounced and went directly over to my friend's table, as well as to several others, and confiscated everything he had, and would not let him sell a thing until he paid the overdue bill immediately, on-the-spot. How 'bout that for a little excitement? I wonder if some glib blabber-mouth informed.

Remember, once it's in writing (like on a www forum) it is out there forever.

FrankM.

The expanse and breadth of the show - the entire substance of the post - glad you completely skipped over all of that.  

No, I really didn't skip over all of that.  I summarized what you wrote.

If you are looking for famous people like Neil Young, Mandy Patinkin, or Rod Stewart, and a media circus following them, it ain't going to happen at York. 
I've seen Mr. Young there. No big deal in my opinion, at the show he is just another TCA member. I'd rather leave a guy like him in piece to enjoy the show.  I worked in the concert business for a while years ago, and met enough "stars" to suit me. 

Usually Mike Wolf, higher-ups from Lionel and other manufacturer/importers are there.

If you are looking for seminars and presentations, you can attend some at the TCA museum the day before the show. Some companies have started doing presentations right at their spots in the Orange hall too.

York is a super deal for a dealer.  Tables are $30 each.  In Springfield, the tables are $160 each!!!  Greenberg charges $72 per table.   The table applications for almost every show that I sell at , about 20 each year, require the state sales tax number to be listed.  I have 6 state licenses, some for states that I sell in only once a year.  As far as York is concerned, I have always been told that because the York meet is NOT open to the public, and involves members selling only to members, a tax license is not required except in the dealer halls. This distinction has never made any sense to me and probably would not stand up in court if it was legally challenged.   From a practical standpoint, if every one in the member halls was required to have a tax license, I would bet that over 75% of the members would stop coming. 

And here's a story of note, from several years ago. A friend who had been displaying at a train-show @ Edison, NJ had neglected to pay taxes on what he had been selling over some time. At one show, the tax authorities came into the venue unannounced and went directly over to my friend's table, as well as to several others, and confiscated everything he had, and would not let him sell a thing until he paid the overdue bill immediately, on-the-spot. How 'bout that for a little excitement? I wonder if some glib blabber-mouth informed

Do you have any idea of how they decided what he owed?

C W Burfle posted:

And here's a story of note, f...would not let him sell a thing until he paid the overdue bill immediately, on-the-spot. ...

Do you have any idea of how they decided what he owed?

Yes, CW, they came with records that appeared to give them an idea of what he (typically?) sold there, something like that. I had gone up to his table to see what I might buy, and he said he could not sell anything and had to wait for his wife to bring the necessary money and/or certificate. I didn't inquire further as he seemed quite nettled. He said he felt they had been watching him.

Here's the whole story, now that I've thought about it and recalled further:  Before I could have any space in the Orange Hall @ York, I had to apply for a license, which connected me to the Pennsylvania tax (sales) system. TCA was absolutely adamant about my having that before being welcomed into and having space in the hall. And TCA was consistently strict about my having paid the sales tax due for the latest Meet before I could get space for the next Meet on the calendar. I obeyed religiously.

Once I received the physical license, I used to keep it at home, for fear of losing it amidst all the commotion and rigmarole of taking product in and out of the car at York. Sometimes, I secured the license in the car in the visor.

Then, my friend at the Edison show had his difficulty, and I believe he hadn't been displaying his NJ license/certificate to be able to peddle and collect sales tax. That may have been what alerted them. I don't know for sure. I am not even sure he collected sales tax, which he never did from me. (Maybe, he absorbed that cost?)

His difficulty prompted me to get a proper frame for my license and to display it prominently at my both in the Orange Hall from then onward.

FrankM.

PJB posted:

Hudson J1e posted:

PJB posted:

Mallard4468 posted:

Not saying this applies to you, but most people engaged in this discussion are so incredibly interested  in furthering their own agendas they aren't receptive to other opinions. But here goes:

To recalibrate- I started by saying I was relatively new to this and that I very much want to attend York. But wanted to point out that dealers - in Connecticut, Rhode Island, 2 in Massachusetts, 3 in Nassau County and one in Brooklyn - have told me (and others) that you simply cannot. Not without being brought in by a member. And then never again unless you are sponsored by a member and accepted as a member yourself by TCA. 

I said that, given all the inherent trouble and expense already associated with attending an out of town event, this extra hoop made it less attractive.  Again, want to attend, just less attractive.  And the reason I surfaced all this was simply as a data point so anyone who cares about TCA and York would have another view  

And, I'm glad you brought up San Diego ComicCon. I think it is NOT analogous. That event is a media extravaganza. It is attended by entire casts from films and TV. Like the cast from Star Trek, Star Trek Next Generation, Thor, Iron Man, Superman, Batman, Avengers and Twilight to name just a very few.  People like Bill Shatner, Robert Downey Jr., Leonard Nimoy (well, used to), Ben Affleck, Chris Hemsworth, Scarlett Johanssen and the list goes on and on.  And the are all on panels and available to speak with, take photos and autograph opportunities (yes, these are cost extras).  Every major film studio is represented, every major comic book and graphic arts publisher, manga and other media.  The world of animation, toys, makers and others are all there in force.  There are film events and panels with these stars, an entire section where Lego sets up and there are constant valuable give-always. This description just scratches the surface of all the events. It also goes on for 5 solid days. Your transportation is included, via bus service that runs around town from early till very late.  And then there is the comic book aspect. Every major dealer, very many legends in the hobby including artists, writers, etc. are all there. Stan Lee included. Finally, and probably most importantly, despite the show's name being a total misnomer as ComicCon is a film and media extravaganza, there is no parent association to join and anyone is allowed entrance like to any ballgame, concert, Broadway show, etc.

Now, I've never attended York, but am in right in saying that comparing York to ComicCon is like comparing apples and bowling balls - at best? 

 

That's a fair point. I see what you mean. Obviously, there are costs to get celebrities to attend something so the average person is getting more at Comic Con than at York although to some die hard train fanatics guys like Mike Wolf are celebrities. However, I still think it is analogous comparison. At York pretty much every major O Gauge importer/manufacturer and small garage cottage industry is there. You can see first hand what their products are like. So the average person pays more to go to Comic Con but they get more. It makes sense to me. While the people that run Comic Con don't put out a magazine or support a museum and a library (that I know of) I'm sure the costs to rent those buildings, provide buses and get the celebrities to show up are very expensive.

I don't know when it was that those dealers told you that misinformation about York and getting into the TCA but what they told you certainly isn't true today. That's a fact. It doesn't make sense to me for them to say such a thing because if you were going to go to York you would be a potential customer. More potential customers are certainly not a bad thing. Well for whatever the reason that they gave you the misinformation you now know the truth. It's your choice if you want to attend and you can go one time as guest to see what's like. Getting into York or the TCA is as simple as writing a check.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do and I hope you have fun with this hobby. That's the most important thing.