Atwater Models-All Nation

In the early 1950s , All-Nation acquired General Models, Atwater models and scale model railways to add to their manufacturing Line. General had an EMD switcher at the time and I think Atwater may have made an F style diesel. I think All Nation offered some small steam engine kits, a ten wheeler and an Atlantic which i thought traced their heritage to prewar Varney Offerings. Not sure how long they offered the locomotive kits

In your case, perhaps Atwater models was using some All nation parts prior to the buyout or perhaps what you have may have been Atwater inventory that All Nation was using up around the time of the acquisition. If you look at the paper work for addresses, dates ,etc it might relate the document to a time period giving you a bit more insight as to when the kit was packaged.

Atwater was the company that produced the dies in the late 1940s for the F units that became part of the All Nation Line.  They were well ahead of their time and many O Scale modelers still run them on their model railroads.  I have a few of my own.  The early castings have a small "Atwater" builders plate cast into their nose.  I would think that the All Nation Hobby Shop would have sold the "Atwater" castings until they ran out of them.

As far as Varney/General Models/All Nation/Babbitt steam loco kits go, there was a 4-4-0, 4-4-2, 4-6-0 (original Varney B&O Ten Wheeler from 1946/47), 2-6-0 (Babbitt era), 2-6-2 (Carey Boiler) 4-6-0 ( Carey Boiler), 4-6-2, 4-8-2 and a 2-6-6-4 that was offered during the Genereal Models period in the late 1940s early 1950s for a short time.  All of these models utilized the 70" Varney drivers and other parts.  Frames are all bar stock (usually steel) with spacer rivets and bronze bearings from the original Varney design.  The Mountain and the articulated have cast brass cylinders (probably Adams and Son) and the rest use the Varney Ten Wheeler cylinders, rods and valve gear.  Properly assembled they will outlive their builders and can be made into very smooth running locos.

BTS (Bill Wade) in West Virginia  purchased the steam loco line from Babbitt a few years ago but, up to now, has not offered anything from their inventory for sale.

These models in various finished forms and kits show up for sale with some frequency on ebay and usually sell for less than Babbitt was asking for their kits.  That was probably a problem for the owner of Babbitt and may be why BTS has been slow in offering these kits again.

I think there is a decent market for parts to keep these locos running but I am not sure about the need for new complete kits.  There aren't many people still building locos from kits or scratch anymore.  I would guess there are less than 100 folks in our hobby that are doing this today.

Information above is based on my knowledge of the All Nation Line from personal experience with their locos and reading Model Railroader mags from the late 1940s and 1950s.  Estimate of the quantity of loco builders today is strictly a guess on my part based on conversations with modelers at various O Scale meets around the country.

I will be finishing up my second All Nation 4-4-0 kit this summer.

Best to all,

Joe Foehrkolb

thank you steamer  thank you joe I now know twice as much as I knew before --it does help--now I'll be able to answer questions should they arise as I'm going to be selling them  if anyone would be interested in 9doors,5 B tops,1 B side,1 right side  & 3 left side A unit,2 1/2 trucks and 5 double thread assemblers--asking $20 + shipping -flat rate  18.95  best price as they weigh 11 lbs.  thanks again guys  much appreciated

oh I forgot  2 A roofs  imagine that

I know all nation made their 4-6-0 into the late 1960's, and they had a popular F7, 4-6-2, 4-8-2, and 4-4-2 in 1950. Don't know much beyond that.

AFAIK, this is the All Nation 4-4-2 mentioned above.  I seem to recall seeing "Varney" cast into some of the Zamac parts. 

Bruce

Yes.  Many of the parts, including drivers, cylinders, tender, side rods, are all from the Varney ten-wheeler.  This is all we had in the late 1950s until Max Gray started importing quality brass.

thanks to all of you for info you shared  much appreciated and that is a slick steam engine  nice job  

The All Nation Hobby Shop was owned by O Scale Hall of Fame member Bob Colson. I'm not sure that they (All Nation) actually produced anything in house. They sold a lot of stuff like the Atwater/General Models diesels that ended up carrying their name, but were not actually their creations. If you are really interested in their stuff, dig up some back issues of the late "O Scale News 48/ft". Bob2 and Joe F. probably can add a bit to this.

Simon

PS: As of later years, the "All Nation Line" was owned by a gentleman named Bill Pope until he passed a few years back. Mr. Pope is also a member of the "O Scale Hall of Fame" as is our fellow forumite Joe Foehrkolb.

Gentlemen,

I have a few All Nation locos, and they run more like a real steam engine than most spark trains in that, with the original open-frame motors, you have to give them a lot of throttle, then back off as the thing starts to move, or they will jackrabbit or spin the drivers.  As delivered, they aren't for rivet counters but, with effort and enjoyment, they are a good platform for remodeling. 

Here are a few shots of my GM Ten Wheeler, which I reworked extensively to represent an SP TW-10 (?).  Sadly, these shots are AFTER one of my cats knocked it off the piano, but you can see it's humble heritage if you look closely enough.

Lotsa grinding and fabbing, but I am pleased with the results.  The scratch-built Vandy tender houses a speaker and pickup for PFM SSII sound which, to me, is the best steam sound system ever produced.

Loves me some trains,

Mark in Modesto

I know I shouldn't spent the time but here is the correct story of the Atwater tooling.  In short, Atwater Models developed the F-3 tooling but ran out of money before marketing the product as his under floor powered trucks basically didn't work.  General Models which had been buying up other O scale lines in the 1946-1949 period, acquired the tooling and developed the well known power truck later marketed for many years by All Nation.  General Models sold many copies of the model (which still had "Atwater" engraved in the dies) and developed the F-7 variation before going bankrupt in late 1950 (due to a bad direct sales strategy and possibly an embezzlement).  Bob Colson bought the line from the bankruptcy auction in 1951 for his All Nation Hobby shop in Chicago.  Initially he intended only to sell off the remaining stock but Bozack (father of the current owner of Chicagoland hobbies) and others convinced Colson to restart manufacturing of the line which included the F units, diesel switcher, Varney derived steamers and many freight cars.  Colson produced the line through the early 1970's with many additions and improvements. Bill Pope then acquired the line and continued it until his death about 10 years ago.  Rumor is that the tooling is sitting in Pope son's barn rusting.

Slight addendum to the above.    Bill Pope sold off the steam line of kits in the 90s I think to a guy in Kentucky who named it Babbitt Loco works or something like that.    He upgraded the models with enclosed gear boxes (from PSC I think) and sprung drivers.    He also added a 2-6-0 to the line with a rolled brass boiler.    I don't how many of the loco kits were offered, but I have seen kits for the 4-6-0, 4-4-2, and the 4-6-2

This gentleman sold the line a few years ago (maybe 5) to I think BTS Car Shops.    The owner of that company had some serious medical problems shortly after buying the line and has not offered parts or kits for sale yet.   But he still mentions that he plans to on his website.   

So the dies and tools still at Pope's shop would be presumably for the diesels, freight, and passenger car kits.   I think Bill Pope bought the plans and dies for the Walthers passenger car kits when they got out of O Scale mfg.    Keil-line bought the molds for diecast parts from Walthers.    Keil and Pope worked together to market new kits from the Walthers tooling.  

Another addendum: the steamers went first to George Sennhouser, of Babbitt, Minnesota, and hence the new name.  The guy in Kentucky - Boyce Yates -  continued the line under the Babbitt name.  I did all his axle knurling, and he sent me spare parts.

This is an unforgiving business - it costs more to roll out a complete kit than it does to buy one on eBay, either kit or finished.  That is what happened to CLW, and it will continue to happen.  There is no future in paying money for dies, tools, or patents/copyrights.  I love the Walthers 9000- series passenger car kits, but they can be had in pristine condition for $25, or less than it would cost to pack the box in low quantities. That is why the Pope children will never find a buyer.  The stuff needs to be placed in an archive, with strict rules on who can use the fixtures and dies and how they are returned.  Not gonna happen.

Opinion.

Someone should buy them, and market them completed.

Okay, you are someone, when is your first release?

Realistically, The 40s era stuff takes a lot of work to compete with the modern plastic and brass models.   The detail is just not there.    The walthers passenger cars can be made up into nice cars.    But the rivet detail is crude compared to the GGD plastic.     They do have the advantage of some specific models and GGD is limited to just a few.    On the other hand, how many modelers still want models of heavy weight passenger cars?   

The  All Nation line products, along with Max Gray brass played a critical role in keeping O Scale 2 rail alive during the 1950/60's.  The men that produced them deserve our respect and thanks.  But by today's standards of prototype fidelity and performance their models just can't compete with newer products in resin, brass, or even die cast.  Case in point being the incorrect nose contour on the Atwater/GMC/All Nation F units or the simple stamped brass hardware on many 1950's era kits and  imports.  From a prototype modelling perspective, the good old days weren't all that good - however model railroading was satisfying and fun.  IMO it is even more so today as we have far more choices on how to pursue  the hobby.

El Classico,

Golden Gate Depot's forthcoming release of 12 and 1 and 8-1-2 sleepers lists for $170 per car complete.

If you could purchase a Walthers kit for $25, add $40 or so for good trucks (GGD's 3 axle P/S ones are $50), decals at $5-10, lights @ $15, interior @ $30 +/-, paint, etc. Basically a GGD completely finished car costs the same as a complete Walthers kit.

I have built a number of Walthers cars and know I am slow compared to other builders, but I can figure at least 25-35 hours to completely finish a car to basically the same level of amenities as a GGD car.

A well known O scale passenger car builder charges about $600-650 for a completed O scale passenger car including ones built from Walthers kits. Are they "better" than GGD cars? In some respects definitely - at 4 times the price.

Personally, I much preferred JC Models kits over Walthers for their finer rivet detail but JC was rather limited in offerings compared to Walthers although they did offer a number of PRR, NYC, and N&W kits in addition to 12 and 1 cars.

And one choice, out of many, is to be a "doorstop" collector.  There are very few of us, and our models are very crude in comparison, but we are a happy bunch.  I would post a photo of a "doorstop" for you, but with just a little work, you can see many doorstop models, including well done Walthers cars, on another 2-rail forum that actually accepts my Photobucket images.

I sometimes wonder about folks with perfect layouts and three rail track.  They in turn wonder about my sanity, running sand- cast PAs and Mountains.  All in good fun.

OK  What's a doorstop, Bob?

Can you suggest a Google search line?

Cheers

MaxSouthOz posted:

OK  What's a doorstop, Bob?

Can you suggest a Google search line?

Cheers

A "doorstop" is generally a piece of crap that is heavy enough to hold any door in the desired position. Also, a good "doorstop" does NOT necessarily have to be a piece of model railroad stuff.

Hmm.  I'll ask it a different way.

My email address is below.  Can you point me to the forum please, Bob?

rheil posted:

El Classico,

Golden Gate Depot's forthcoming release of 12 and 1 and 8-1-2 sleepers lists for $170 per car complete.

If you could purchase a Walthers kit for $25, add $40 or so for good trucks (GGD's 3 axle P/S ones are $50), decals at $5-10, lights @ $15, interior @ $30 +/-, paint, etc. Basically a GGD completely finished car costs the same as a complete Walthers kit.

I have built a number of Walthers cars and know I am slow compared to other builders, but I can figure at least 25-35 hours to completely finish a car to basically the same level of amenities as a GGD car.

A well known O scale passenger car builder charges about $600-650 for a completed O scale passenger car including ones built from Walthers kits. Are they "better" than GGD cars? In some respects definitely - at 4 times the price.

Personally, I much preferred JC Models kits over Walthers for their finer rivet detail but JC was rather limited in offerings compared to Walthers although they did offer a number of PRR, NYC, and N&W kits in addition to 12 and 1 cars.

To answer a couple opinions at once:

-It's true that the Walthers cars do not have fine rivet detail. That's what batten strips and Archer transfers are for. And, if you think they are "crude," take a look at Ed Bommer's work. Bob2 is a fan, too
-American models made a wide range of accurate passenger car kits that make up more quickly and have nice rivets....Patient searching on eBay is required.
-I'd like to acquire some JC Models kits, but, my goodness, they are rare, especially for folk on the Left Coast who don't have the swell shows to attend at which to pick up jewels.
-As nice as GGD cars are, the range is limited (what you gonna do for a solarium car, e.g.?). The GGD coaches are PRR P-70, paired window designs. Swell. Many railroads used single window designs. Slapping a different coat of paint on a P70 does not convert it into an accurate model of a different design.
-Yes, it takes time to complete a kit car. On the other hand, the P70 cars have more or less generic underframe components, accurate perhaps, for one version within the P-70 range. And, while they do have interiors, they are only approximations of actual cars. By the time I alter and repaint I could have done a scratch+bought component interior.
-Who models heavy weight cars? Foolish question...apparently many do given the sales of "Madison" cars by MTH, Lionel, et al. As for me, there's a prewar Broadway Limited pulled by my High Iron K-4 just waiting for time and energy to build.

Keystoned Ed posted: Case in point being the incorrect nose contour on the Atwater/GMC/All Nation F units

 

Just curious....what is incorrect?

Simon

Max - Google "monday mountain thread".  Then look for doorstops.

The most inaccurate part of the A-N nose, to me, is the slightly large windshield.

I have complete strings of PSC Harriman and Pullman cars, and complete strings of SP and PRR Walthers cars.  I actually prefer the Walthers cars - they feel more like model railroading to me.

But remember - to each his or her own . . .

Thanks, Bob.

A doorstop is a non-working loco - only good for a doorstop.

Cheers

It is meant with some humor and self-deprecation.  Often "doorstops" can out-pull the best of modern models.  Some larger Diesel models have two giant AC-DC motors that can turn the room into an ozone factory, and pull ten amps while hauling a hundred metal and wood freight cars.

By the way, once you find "Monday Mountains" a little extra effort will show you a lot more doorstop models.  Try, for instance, "Doorstop!" on page two.

Yes.  I had a good look around, Bob.

A nice board. 

I agree that the JC cars have better detailed sides than the Walthers cars.    Since I am a pennsy fan, the GGD cars worked out great for me.     They were better detailed than the Walthers cars I had and the original sets were only about 125 per car.

But if you model any  RR that did not use Paired window coaches similar to a P70, they may not meet your needs.   

The walthers line especially had kits for many different prototypes of coaches and pullmans.    Many of the heavy weight name trains could be modeled.    they also had a big variety of head end equipment to fill out consistss, and solariums and observation cars.    

bob2 posted:

The most inaccurate part of the A-N nose, to me, is the slightly large windshield.

I won't argue that, except I would call everything in FRONT of the windshield the 'nose'.

Simon

Love the side topic of "door stops".....I have some, too! I also have one......"boat anchor".....which is bigger and heavier than a "door stop".....

Simon - The nose of the Atwater/AN F units comes to a rather flat radius where the two half's of the die cast body meet.  I was happy with my AN F units until I saw better representations from Atlas/Roco, and much later P&D, AtlasO, Key, and Sunset 3rd Rail, Lionel, and MTH.  Like any model - the acid test comes when you compare it with prototype photos taken from several angles.  Back in the era they were produced modelers didn't have access to the prototype drawings and wealth of photos we have today.  For their day they were excellent models.

As far as heavyweight passenger cars kits go, IMO the highest standard was set by Ralph Brown's American Standard  Car Company.  His side rivet detail,  belt rail, window sash representations were orders of magnitude better than the stamped steel sides by Walthers or JC.  As best as I can tell from my incomplete collection of old ASC catalogs, Ralph designed and produced kits for at least 56 different prototypes.  He also produced a wide selection of streamline car kits in O scale under the American Lightweight Car Company brand.  Due to health issues the ASC line was sold to an individual in Knoxville TN who intended to continue production under the Pullman Scale Car Manufacturing Co. brand.     PSCMC Catalog 1 dated 1995 listed  59 kits including 3 one piece resin body kits.  While I've seen hundreds of ASC kits and built up models at O scale show, I've not seen a PSCMC kit.  Attempts by friend to order catalogs, kits and parts from the PSCMC's Knoxville P.O. box address were unsuccessful.   

Hey - do not forget the Exacta molded copper heavyweights!  I have one, and the rivet detail is as good as PSC.  I suspect they are 17/64, but that is good for me.  I should have bought a few more from Peckman.  Maybe some day . . .

Lots of neat information here

prrjim posted:

Okay, you are someone, when is your first release?

Realistically, The 40s era stuff takes a lot of work to compete with the modern plastic and brass models.   The detail is just not there.    The walthers passenger cars can be made up into nice cars.    But the rivet detail is crude compared to the GGD plastic.     They do have the advantage of some specific models and GGD is limited to just a few.    On the other hand, how many modelers still want models of heavy weight passenger cars?   

If that's the challenge, consider it accepted. Who would I contact about the dies.

Tom Shirey posted:

Love the side topic of "door stops".....I have some, too! I also have one......"boat anchor".....which is bigger and heavier than a "door stop".....

 

Mine is "fishing flies"   AKA  Hornby decoders. 

I think the fastest way to get ahold of the Pope kids is to call Downtown Hobbies in Chicago and get a referral.  Or maybe P&D Hobbies.  But be advised, the rumor is that these kids think they are holding a gold mine.

bob2 posted:

I think the fastest way to get ahold of the Pope kids is to call Downtown Hobbies in Chicago and get a referral.  Or maybe P&D Hobbies.  But be advised, the rumor is that these kids think they are holding a gold mine.

Couldn't find Downtown Hobbies, contacted P&D. Still waiting for a response from them.

rheil posted:

El Classico,

Golden Gate Depot's forthcoming release of 12 and 1 and 8-1-2 sleepers lists for $170 per car complete.

If you could purchase a Walthers kit for $25, add $40 or so for good trucks (GGD's 3 axle P/S ones are $50), decals at $5-10, lights @ $15, interior @ $30 +/-, paint, etc. Basically a GGD completely finished car costs the same as a complete Walthers kit.

I have built a number of Walthers cars and know I am slow compared to other builders, but I can figure at least 25-35 hours to completely finish a car to basically the same level of amenities as a GGD car.

A well known O scale passenger car builder charges about $600-650 for a completed O scale passenger car including ones built from Walthers kits. Are they "better" than GGD cars? In some respects definitely - at 4 times the price.

Personally, I much preferred JC Models kits over Walthers for their finer rivet detail but JC was rather limited in offerings compared to Walthers although they did offer a number of PRR, NYC, and N&W kits in addition to 12 and 1 cars.

By using decent trucks (Mebbe the postwar Lionel or original Walthers ones?), window strips instead of a full interior, and not lettering them, that brings the Aalther cars down about $60

El,

Last known address of The All Nation Line is:

The All Nation Line

23W546 St Charles Street

Carol Stream, Illinois 60188

Phone No:  630-682-9170

The Owner of All Nation, Bill Pope's son, Danny Pope had tables at the old O March meet in the old hotel location for about two years after Bill passed away trying to sell some AN kits and parts at their last retail pricing schedule.  Not much stuff moved off of his tables as there were plenty of AN kits and parts on other vendors tables selling for a lot less.  It is my understanding that, at one time,  the current owner of the remains of AN wanted around 25K to take the remains of the line from him and had no takers.

I have been told that in the last year or so of production someone working for Bill tried to heat the F-7 dies to speed up production and damaged the dies.  The F-3 unit dies were still OK at the time of Bill's passing.

If someone did purchase this line, they would be faced with using tooling that does not come up to current OSHA safety standards therefore making it difficult to hire competent workers legally to use the tooling.  You could, of course do it all yourself as a sole proprietor and I think that is how Bill operated near the end of his operation of the business.

The original AN diesel kits are composed of pressure diecast Zamac.  In later years Bill started using a soft alloy for items he had ran out of, like the diesel switcher truck sideframes.

The last prices list I have from AN lists the freight car kits at around $40.00 less trucks.  These kits are on ebay all of the time and are found at almost all O scale meets for between $15.00 and $30.00 each.

The Diesel switcher and the F units in various levels of completion from new kit to finished models are also found at these meets and on ebay with regularity, all selling for less than the last AN list pricing.

In my opinion,  the best thing that could be obtained from the old AN line would be their power trucks and power truck components.  I did see some of these for sale at the last Chicago meet and the asking prices was somewhat higher than I was willing to pay as I have a decent supply of these trucks "In stock"  for future projects.

Now, all this being said, I wish you well in your attempt to revive this line.  As someone said above, the AN line was one that kept O Scale 2 rail alive through the 1960s and early 1970s and I still build their kits.

Joe Foehrkolb

rrjjf posted:

In my opinion,  the best thing that could be obtained from the old AN line would be their power trucks and power truck components.  I did see some of these for sale at the last Chicago meet and the asking prices was somewhat higher than I was willing to pay as I have a decent supply of these trucks "In stock"  for future projects. 

Yes, the drive components do seem to be in demand and sell well - I have seen entire drives sell for more than entire engines.  Would seem to suggest that re-powering or powering other items remains a healthy practice and that the body shells are of marginal real value, and maybe even a detriment to selling the drive units.

There was also a traction freight trailer line from All-Nation (Zimmer?) that might be slightly attractive - those kits tend to sell better that the regular freight car kits.  There were also some South Shore kits that also sell well when they surface.  The drawback to all these is that the O scale traction community is small subset of O scale and that limits the market.  OTOH, there's next to zero competition for a source of reasonably affordable kits of such cars.

rrjjf posted:

El,

Last known address of The All Nation Line is:

The All Nation Line

23W546 St Charles Street

Carol Stream, Illinois 60188

Phone No:  630-682-9170

The Owner of All Nation, Bill Pope's son, Danny Pope had tables at the old O March meet in the old hotel location for about two years after Bill passed away trying to sell some AN kits and parts at their last retail pricing schedule.  Not much stuff moved off of his tables as there were plenty of AN kits and parts on other vendors tables selling for a lot less.  It is my understanding that, at one time,  the current owner of the remains of AN wanted around 25K to take the remains of the line from him and had no takers.

I have been told that in the last year or so of production someone working for Bill tried to heat the F-7 dies to speed up production and damaged the dies.  The F-3 unit dies were still OK at the time of Bill's passing.

If someone did purchase this line, they would be faced with using tooling that does not come up to current OSHA safety standards therefore making it difficult to hire competent workers legally to use the tooling.  You could, of course do it all yourself as a sole proprietor and I think that is how Bill operated near the end of his operation of the business.

The original AN diesel kits are composed of pressure diecast Zamac.  In later years Bill started using a soft alloy for items he had ran out of, like the diesel switcher truck sideframes.

The last prices list I have from AN lists the freight car kits at around $40.00 less trucks.  These kits are on ebay all of the time and are found at almost all O scale meets for between $15.00 and $30.00 each.

The Diesel switcher and the F units in various levels of completion from new kit to finished models are also found at these meets and on ebay with regularity, all selling for less than the last AN list pricing.

In my opinion,  the best thing that could be obtained from the old AN line would be their power trucks and power truck components.  I did see some of these for sale at the last Chicago meet and the asking prices was somewhat higher than I was willing to pay as I have a decent supply of these trucks "In stock"  for future projects.

Now, all this being said, I wish you well in your attempt to revive this line.  As someone said above, the AN line was one that kept O Scale 2 rail alive through the 1960s and early 1970s and I still build their kits.

Joe Foehrkolb

 

 

Thanks for that address. The models I am interested in mainly are the cars, but if I got the chance to acquire/lease a few decent engine dies, I probably wouldn't hesitate to do so and offer them in 2 and 3 rail. 

What I am gathering from the information supplied is that Pope has the Diesel engines and the cars, and somebody else has the steam engine dies. Is that correct? What is the contact information for the person with the steam engine dies?

El Classico posted:

  What is the contact information for the person with the steam engine dies?

B.T.S. has the steam engine line as purchased from Babbitt several years ago.

http://www.btsrr.com/

Uh...should you call "Chicagoland Hobbies" off of Touhy...is that the shop that might know about All-Nation dies?  This old history, of what was once made, is very interesting, as it hints of what might be out there, that you can use....and isn't the redundancy of the same few prototypes from the few new molds.

I'll try Chicagoland. I will probably not end up attempting anything with the old Babbitt dies, as they are in decent hands (even if not currently in use yet). 

mwb posted:

El Classico posted:

  What is the contact information for the person with the steam engine dies?

B.T.S. has the steam engine line as purchased from Babbitt several years ago.

http://www.btsrr.com/

Website says locos on hold for brain surgery in 2013. I hope that went well.

Well, I would buy them at $25/kit without trucks and couplers.  But if you do it, try to get good end castings, like Walthers did originally.  Those are the ones I buy on the used market.  Good luck in your endeavor.

If someone was to retrieve the tooling, my suggestion would be the power trucks, the freight sprung trucks, the six wheel passenger trucks, north shore kits, updates passenger and traction kits (former Walthers).   The detail parts are all with Kiel Line/Scale City designs.  As far as the diesels are concerned.  The switcher is greatly outclassed by the Atlas model.  The F unit dies were damaged by the caster according to a conversation I had with Bill Pope.  The B-units were beyond repair and the A unit was needing refreshing.  So their time is over after 60 years of use.  The F-Unit diesel trucks may have some value.

To be honest, any engines would have been extras. I was looking at cars.

Now I wonder what the final resting place has been for the Athearn kits - last hands that I am aware of that had them was Boxcar Jim.........

I am not one who believes that O Scale is dying, but I believe the market for new kits of this type has been obliterated by the number of such kits on the used market, coupled with the availability of highly accurate plastic models and the cost of low volume production.

Assume the Pope kids want $25K for the box car and passenger car lines.  Assume also that there is a market for such kits at $50 each (about double what they seem to bring on eBay).  Finally, assume the Popes get realistic and sell all for only ten grand.

How many kits do you sell at $50 before you get your initial investment back?

What do you guess it will cost to fill each box with the required parts?  Subtract that from the $50.  Then tell me this makes sense.

I am not really part of the market - I have ten unbuilt kits awaiting some construction date in the distant future.

Depends on if sold as kits, or sold built.

bob2 posted:

What do you guess it will cost to fill each box with the required parts?  Subtract that from the $50.  Then tell me this makes sense.

The box costs about 85 cents,

bob2 posted:

I am not one who believes that O Scale is dying, but I believe the market for new kits of this type has been obliterated by the number of such kits on the used market, coupled with the availability of highly accurate plastic models and the cost of low volume production.

Assume the Pope kids want $25K for the box car and passenger car lines.  Assume also that there is a market for such kits at $50 each (about double what they seem to bring on eBay).  Finally, assume the Popes get realistic and sell all for only ten grand.

How many kits do you sell at $50 before you get your initial investment back?

What do you guess it will cost to fill each box with the required parts?  Subtract that from the $50.  Then tell me this makes sense.

I am not really part of the market - I have ten unbuilt kits awaiting some construction date in the distant future.

Whether Tis nobler in the mind to have lived long and prospered without living, or be but a brief candle whose life hath much vigor.

El,

I have assembled many AN boxcar kits over the past 40 years.  Time spent on assembling a kit is about 10 hours including painting to match the pre-printed sides.  More time is spent if the kit is un-decorated and requires decal application.  (Good luck finding matching paint today).   Walthers passenger car kits, properly assembled can easily eat up 20 hours of hobby time.  These model kits are not made to be assembled by someone that wants to recoup there time at any reasonable pay scale.  The kits are for hobbyists to spend their hobby time on.  Most "modelers" today do not want to spend their time building kits like these.  I happen to like doing this kind of construction so I purchase these kits from time to time when I see them.  The past batch I purchased was about 20 AN boxcar kits, with AN Sprung trucks included for $10.00 each.  I built about 14 of them over the summer months two years ago and sold the duplicates un-assembled that were already in my collection.  Regarding value of these kits at a "O meet" Bob T is telling it like it is.

Regarding the use of Walthers passenger car trucks, Keil Line Models, now Scale City Designs, improved the Walthers passenger car trucks by adding brass bushings in the sideframes for the axles to roll in.  Without these bushings, the trucks are not worth using as the soft metal bearings quickly eggs out in operation.   I have made my own brass bushings for these trucks and machined blunt axles for  the wheels.  Once those changes were made the trucks became dependable and good rollers.  The Walthers pointed axles that came with these trucks flopped around in the truck sideframes.

The old All Nation 6 wheel Pullman trucks were pressure diecast Zamac with blunt axles and roll freely and will outlast their builder.  Unfortunately in later years these were cast in a softer alloy.  Same problem as the Walthers trucks mentioned above.

Someone told me DesPlaines Hobbies obtained the AN freight car trucks.  I have not confirmed this as I have a good supply of these trucks picked up at various meets.  Last list price was about $22.00/pr for the sprung Bettendorf truck kit.  I still find them at meets for around $10.00/pr.

A set of four NWSL 33" wheels on axles will set you back about $18.00 retail today.  I don't know of any other supplier of steel O scale wheel sets today.

Again, I wish you well in trying to revive this line but I don't see the financial viability of it.

Best regards,

Joe Foehrkolb

rrjjf posted:

A set of four NWSL 33" wheels on axles will set you back about $18.00 retail today.  I don't know of any other supplier of steel O scale wheel sets today.

 

You generally can find sets of 4 Intermountain wheelsets for under $10 at most of the larger meets still.

Bill Davis has tables full of just trucks at both the Indy and Chicago meets - many very reasonably priced sprung trucks (old metal Athearn) up to the $45+ per pair level that I rarely indulge in....

As Joe described, there is a very real time variable involved in assembling these kits as they were intended and then if you want to dress them up, re-detail with better parts and castings, add all of the underbody plumbing - more time yet. 

I haven't built an AN or Athearn kit in many years - did a Walthers kit a few months back - I'm more likely to just start building from a pile of sticks, a pile of castings and packs of detail parts, and a bad grainy photo or a just an idea vs. building a kit these days.  Then again, I can see in the projects queue a stack of partially built Ambroid kits, all of the same car - oh, joy......  Fire up the assembly line Mr. Ford....

Martin,

I believe Intermountain wheels are plated brass.  Nothing wrong with them, I have used them and they are fine but they have pointed axles and will probably n ot work well in older cast truck sideframes that were made for blunt axles.

Joe

1st I've ever heard that, Joe.  Then again, I've never had a reason to look,

That is a problem though - no other source of the blunt end wheelsets.  Ran into that myself recently on a set of sideframes that I wanted to put under a car.  Again, they can be found at Chicago or Indy for the individual project w/o problem, but if you were looking to go into business, there's another potential hurdle.

thank you guys for all the info you've shared.  I did need some of it when I sold the Atwater/ A-N parts as I was asked a couple of questions I would not have been able to fully answer. Happy railroading to everyone!  

Thank you for the history lesson for those of us who love the models but grew up after they were in their prime.  I still feel a nicely assembled and detailed AN F unit holds its own quite well and will pull the house down.  I personaly prefer the older, diecast models over the modern plastic models packed with electronics.  Filling the room with Ozone is one past time I enjoy.  Brings back memories of my childhood Lionel trains, and of watching the Indy based Unaffialited O scaler's layout at shows back long before I understood what scale O was.  I just remember the smells and sounds, hot oil and ozone!   While the market for kit engines is mostly gone, I hunt them down.  Just bought an F3 at the Indy meet and its getting built right now.  Anybody got one of the CLW drives with the brass trucks to fit these that needs a new home.  The F3 came with a AN duel drive(both trucks powered thru towers) and its not gonna match speed with my CLW powered F7.  That or dummy wheel sets so I can make it unpowered.   Mike