Luckily no one killed!
Just think what would of happened a few hours later.......
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Wow - I've been on that platform! I would say the only reason there are no fatalities is because the people on the train are the same ones who would have been on that escalator moments after it stopped.
I would say the operator that was "walking and talking" during the investigation will likely soon be fired and possibly brought up on criminal negligence charges. If there is any place I can think of for positive train control systems, the end of a commuter line with a hard stop would be the top of my list! What a mess, thank God everyone will live through this!
...I rode that blue line alot when I visit chicago..
Probably will be sleep deprivation issue. Be interesting to see surveillance videos of train coming in and jumping the bumping posts.
Thank goodness our model trains never do anything like that
I've been there a number of times myself, and will be back on the blue line again on May 16. Never would have thought something as wild as this could have happened, but then again it is Chicago.
Kent in SD
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Well....
That Escalated Quickly.
YYYEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH
It has been reported the the lady "motorman" fell asleep once before and cruised right through a station stop. She has been on the job only two months. I would think someone this green would be under closer supervision. Sleep deprivation should not be an issue as there are maximum hours of service laws in place and I presume transit operators fall under the same laws.
Originally Posted by mark s:
It has been reported the the lady "motorman" fell asleep once before and cruised right through a station stop.
Mark,
According to published reports in today's Chicago Trib, she didn't "fell asleep and cruised right through a station stop.". She "closed her eyes for a moment" and then stopped only one car PAST her designated stopping position.
But for a "new employee", she should have been more severely disciplined by CTA, in my opinion.
I have a hard time calling that subway a "commuter train". I suppose they'll be calling Metra the "el train" next
.
---PCJ
CLTV is still reporting (@12:08 PM) that the "operator" was asleep and missed a stop at Belmont. If she fell asleep once (at O'Hare), why not twice? She, the "operator", claims that she had her eyes closed in the Belmont incident. Seems the CTA and perhaps the NTSB are taking a different view.
Look at the bright side of things, at least she wasn't texting on her cell phone. 
Would have been a scary place to be when that train started climbing the escalator.
Art
Originally Posted by Chugman:
Would have been a scary place to be when that train started climbing the escalator.
Art
Or worst rush hour and people crowded on escalator
Next Exit.... the escalator.....
Makes me think of this guy:
It has been reported that the CTA had to cut the car up with torches to remove it. Curious - it couldn't have been pulled backward? And repaired?
Originally Posted by mark s:
It has been reported that the CTA had to cut the car up with torches to remove it. Curious - it couldn't have been pulled backward? And repaired?
Looks as if trucks were sheared off in picture. Imagine dragging backwards might cause more collateral damage plus probably frame undercarriage might have been twisted and beyond reasonable repair vs new car cost. Probably just wanted to get platform cleared and in business and cranes hoisting rigging would take too long.
One thing I noticed was car lights were still on, thought accident would have shorted third rail. Or maybe car reverted to battery opertion if it had them.
Wonder where CTA is going to find $6 mill for repairs, as probably insurance will not come anywhere close, plus all the lawsuits that have/will pile up?
Originally Posted by mark s:
It has been reported that the CTA had to cut the car up with torches to remove it. Curious - it couldn't have been pulled backward? And repaired?
If you look at my photo, you will see the wheels are all down in a concrete slot. The train came up out of that slot and likely stripped off the wheels. It would have also be unsupported as it climbed the steps, no doubt bending the frame. The vertical distance from the subway level to the top level in my photo is more than a car length, maybe car & a half length.
Kent in SD
So, the train did not stop at what we in Houston would call the "pocket track", where the train set could turn around without blocking the main tracks.
Originally Posted by Dominic Mazoch:
So, the train did not stop at what we in Houston would call the "pocket track", where the train set could turn around without blocking the main tracks.
There is no pocket track for turning the trains. CTA trains are bi-directional and don't require turning. Each "married pair" has a motoman's cab on each end of the pair.
Rusty
It will also be interesting to see what happens to the engineer on this train. The logical result would be that she is in some other line of work in the future, but with Chicago you can never be sure.
Art
Originally Posted by mark s:
It has been reported the the lady "motorman" fell asleep once before and cruised right through a station stop. She has been on the job only two months. I would think someone this green would be under closer supervision. Sleep deprivation should not be an issue as there are maximum hours of service laws in place and I presume transit operators fall under the same laws.
CTA should have her tested for sleep apnea by a third party physician.
If some third party investigation doesn't occur, a subsequent such event would most probably result in an easily winnable lawsuit.
Originally Posted by Chugman:
It will also be interesting to see what happens to the engineer on this train. The logical result would be that she is in some other line of work in the future, but with Chicago you can never be sure.
Art
Hah, she'll be on permanent disability pay from her injuries. Then she can live on that until that juicy city pension kicks in. after all its not her fault, they worked her too hard!
I know a Chicago cop that fell shoveling snow in his own driveway. He got a paid injured leave from the Chicago PD. While collecting,he then went an got another job making even more money until it was "time" for him to return to duty.
Its da Chicyago way!
Originally Posted by TM Terry:
CTA should have her tested for sleep apnea by a third party physician.
If some third party investigation doesn't occur, a subsequent such event would most probably result in an easily winnable lawsuit.
It is puzzling to me how someone could sleep through that stretch of track. It's very loud, rough, and the train slams and bangs around really hard.
Kent in SD
Originally Posted by Two23:
Originally Posted by TM Terry:
CTA should have her tested for sleep apnea by a third party physician.
If some third party investigation doesn't occur, a subsequent such event would most probably result in an easily winnable lawsuit.
It is puzzling to me how someone could sleep through that stretch of track. It's very loud, rough, and the train slams and bangs around really hard.
Kent in SD
Even noise, rocking and rolling can become a lullaby if you're tired enough.
Rusty
She was off duty for either 18 or 19 hours, so if she was tired it must have been from her personal life. She worked 55 hours in the last 7 days.
Art
Originally Posted by Chugman:
She was off duty for either 18 or 19 hours, so if she was tired it must have been from her personal life. She worked 55 hours in the last 7 days.
Art
Not necessarily so. She was working as a fill-in (or spare board) operator with her hours changing continually--day to day. This is now being investigated.
I know a transit operator working on the spare board who finished at 2 AM Monday (really Tuesday morning) and was told to report at 4 AM Wednesday morning. Try that on your body clock!
Originally Posted by Bill Robb:
I know a transit operator working on the spare board who finished at 2 AM Monday (really Tuesday morning) and was told to report at 4 AM Wednesday morning. Try that on your body clock!
In the railroad industry, THAT would be against the federal law (FRA). So, are NOT the transit organizations subject to the same federal laws that railroads, Amtrak, and commuter rail operations are subject to?
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by Bill Robb:
I know a transit operator working on the spare board who finished at 2 AM Monday (really Tuesday morning) and was told to report at 4 AM Wednesday morning. Try that on your body clock!
In the railroad industry, THAT would be against the federal law (FRA). So, are NOT the transit organizations subject to the same federal laws that railroads, Amtrak, and commuter rail operations are subject to?
It was TTC, so its not US. There are provincial laws in Canada but I'm not sure of the details.
Originally Posted by Bill Robb:
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by Bill Robb:
I know a transit operator working on the spare board who finished at 2 AM Monday (really Tuesday morning) and was told to report at 4 AM Wednesday morning. Try that on your body clock!
In the railroad industry, THAT would be against the federal law (FRA). So, are NOT the transit organizations subject to the same federal laws that railroads, Amtrak, and commuter rail operations are subject to?
It was TTC, so its not US. There are provincial laws in Canada but I'm not sure of the details.
I don't know what "TTC" is, but the Canadian Ministry of Transport (I think that is the official name), which is the Canadian version of the U.S. FRA, has pretty much all the same hours of service regulations for the Canadian railroad employees as the FRA has for U.S. railroad employees.
TTC = Toronto Transit Commission, Toronto's equivalent to the Chicago Transit Authority. The vehicle in question was either a streetcar or bus, probably a streetcar which would be under provincial jurisdiction.
Only some Canadian railways are under Transport Canada jurisdiction.
Subject: CTA el crash....Did you know that the Operator has only been on the job for less than a year, has only been driving the train for less than 2 months and already has fallen asleep at the "wheel" TWICE! Missed work ONCE for "sleeping in"!
Lets face it the train only goes in a straight line, no turning, no parking, no navigating, no critical thinking...the ONLY requirement is STOPPING! The operator is not even capable of that! Still won't be able to fire her, she will be at CTA HQ sleeping at her new desk job while she's answering phones for 80k per yr.
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by Bill Robb:
I know a transit operator working on the spare board who finished at 2 AM Monday (really Tuesday morning) and was told to report at 4 AM Wednesday morning. Try that on your body clock!
In the railroad industry, THAT would be against the federal law (FRA). So, are NOT the transit organizations subject to the same federal laws that railroads, Amtrak, and commuter rail operations are subject to?
If off duty from 2 am Tuesday till 4 am Wednesday that would be off 26 hours. Hows that a Hours of Service violation.
Originally Posted by Chugman:
She was off duty for either 18 or 19 hours, so if she was tired it must have been from her personal life. She worked 55 hours in the last 7 days.
Art
Lets say she was off 18 hours. Say she needed 2 hours to go get home and go to bed then slept 8 hours. Now suppose she gets a 2 hour call, she would have been off 10 hours till she woke up and been awake 6 hours before the 2 hour call so she would have been awake 8 hours before she started her tour of duty. Now if she works 8 to 12 hours she will be awake for 16 to 20 hours before her tour of duty ends. I am not defending her but if you do the math you can see where you can become sleep deprived in a hurry. Remember she doesn't know how many hours she might be off between trips so it becomes very hard to determine when to get the most out of your rest period so as not to become caught having to be awake 20 or more hours without rest.
Originally Posted by Forest:
Originally Posted by Chugman:
She was off duty for either 18 or 19 hours, so if she was tired it must have been from her personal life. She worked 55 hours in the last 7 days.
Art
Lets say she was off 18 hours. Say she needed 2 hours to go get home and go to bed then slept 8 hours. Now suppose she gets a 2 hour call, she would have been off 10 hours till she woke up and been awake 6 hours before the 2 hour call so she would have been awake 8 hours before she started her tour of duty. Now if she works 8 to 12 hours she will be awake for 16 to 20 hours before her tour of duty ends. I am not defending her but if you do the math you can see where you can become sleep deprived in a hurry. Remember she doesn't know how many hours she might be off between trips so it becomes very hard to determine when to get the most out of your rest period so as not to become caught having to be awake 20 or more hours without rest.
It's time to let the NTSB do it's job... They will have the final say, no matter what anyone here thinks.
Rusty
Originally Posted by Rusty Traque:
It's time to let the NTSB do it's job... They will have the final say, no matter what anyone here thinks.
Rusty
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And unfortunately, NTSB will investigate, write a report that chastises the line, recommend sensible changes, which the rail line screams over, gets its congresspeople (who they have in their pocket) to nullify or water down findings to pablum, then goes back to same old, same old, and nothing changed.
I'm curious how many crew members are on this subway/train ? who opens the doors?
Years ago The Toronto sub way (maybe they still do) had 2 crew members, one to drive and the other opening and closing doors. The crew would switch jobs on the reverse movement. I know it's tough to work a spare board but that's railroading. I worked one for about 6 or 7 years before having some type of regular job.
Originally Posted by rrman:
Originally Posted by Rusty Traque:
It's time to let the NTSB do it's job... They will have the final say, no matter what anyone here thinks.
Rusty
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And unfortunately, NTSB will investigate, write a report that chastises the line, recommend sensible changes, which the rail line screams over, gets its congresspeople (who they have in their pocket) to nullify or water down findings to pablum, then goes back to same old, same old, and nothing changedI'm sure all the "experts" here can effect a change in the way thing are done.
I'm sure all the "experts" here on the forum will be equally effective in changing things.
After all, they know absolutely everything about the crash, the operator and CTA procedures and operations.
Rusty
It's interesting that the union and the CTA have totally different facts regarding how many hours she has worked. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out who is right.
Art
