Curious, would updates sell better then new engines?

Probably not for many reasons. I could visualize all kinds of warranty issues that would make it highly impractical for our train suppliers to do it.

 

 

Think how many plug and play 100 speed step TMCC boards would sell. Thousands?

Aside from some early scale Lionel steamers with one chuff (REALLY????) the biggest disappointment in TMCC land is 32 speed steps. The fact that the ERR upgrade stuff requires soldering to boards makes it a non player for many. And at our house the misses says replacing a steam engine with a more expensive version of the exact same steam engine for a few more electronic do-dads very unlikely.

Most users are not technically adept to handle such conversions.

I agree with that.  However, IF someone wants to learn, they'll figure it out.  I sure did.  Tech support, this forum and directions go a long way in answering questions/learning.

 

I didn't know how to effectively solder until a few weeks ago but I learned-all it took was a little time, reading, learning, correct tools and practice to do it well.  Now I have no fear.  As a matter of fact, I soldered a circuit board the other day-something I never dreamed of doing before.  A new gateway opened for me-working in brass to build items never made in 3R Scale.  I can't tell you how satisfying that is...

 

I for one would be all about being able to buy 'modern electronic updates' for locomotives I already own.  Think about it...VL Challenger sound in an old JLC Challenger is just one example.  However, I don't think we'll ever see THAT.  Why?  Manfs would rather you pay money for a 'new updated' locomotive.

 

Plus, as mentioned, warranty issues.  Incorrect user install/wire/damage errors.

 

There would be a cost effective/cost break also in this.  Too expensive, I'd pass.  Too cheap, the manfs won't mess with it as everyone would upgrade their existing stuff.

 

We kind of already have update kits-ERR makes about everything I need (opinion).

 

Good thread, interested to see what others think.

Interesting idea.  Not unreasonable either, in a world where you can upgrade computers, and Tesla sends out a software ECM update to older models free of charge, and Ferrari makes a factory-built/dealer-installed upgrade kit for five-year old cars like the F430 to bring them up a bit in performance, etc., if not quite to new levels, very close.  

 

But I would not buy a train upgrade kit either.  I have the JLC BB, and if a "Vision upgrade" were available for even just $500 that included all the new features, I'd still pass.  Hard to put into words, . . . I just want keep them as they were out of the box.  I passed on a car upgrade, too, for the same reason: buy it for what it is, enjoy it, and just take care of it.  

I think that the vast majority of people would rather have a new engine than trying to upgrade an older model.

 

I am working to install a DCC decoder with no sound in a 2-rail diesel engine right now.  It isn't that easy for me and I am moderately experienced.  Getting the lights right is especially challenging.

 

Joe

Lionel already has TMCC upgrade kits via the ER line they bought, and MTH sells Proto 3 upgrade kits, so any warranty issue is non factor. 

josef,

Think about it, if you will. Isn't that what they're doing now? Sure they come up with something special every 7-10 yrs. In the meantime they crank out the same ol' things year after year. Each with your minor upgrades. Just my opinion.

The idea of truly PnP kits for many engines is probably vary daunting, I don't see that happening.  There are simply too many variables, the cost to produce the kits would be prohibitive IMO.  After you've opened up a couple hundred Lionel products, you'll see how many variations there are in the internal workings.

 

I'd just like to see ERR expand it's sound selections for the RS Commander.  I"m perfectly happy with the performance of the various cruise modules, it's time for a wider selection of sounds.  How about a new sound board with a library of available sound files to enhance the currently limited selections of sounds available?

 

I'd buy an upgrade kit, if I could be selective about what was being "upgraded."  Better sound?  Sure!  Depleting coal load?  No way.

 

But as has been echoed in this thread, I can't see it ever happening.  Few Americans have the skills to do such upgrades on their own any longer, I fear.  Which means the manufacturers would be unlikely to make any money on it.

 

True, however, I was referring to installer errors/damage.  Which ERR/MTH doesn't cover either.

 

I should've been specific.  Corrected my original post.

 

I'm with GRJ on the sound files, would love a larger offering of ERR sounds.  I'd upgrade my MTH UP Turbines to TMCC command if they had the sound boards.

Odd how I was able to upgrade HO and many N scale engines. Smaller, more fragile, yet when it comes to O, very little. There were kits to lower engines more realistic, sound that started out in boxcars because of size, later moved to engines and tenders. Improved lighting in cars and engines that could be all bought in kits. Detail items to improve appearances. In O, you wait for the next VisionLine? As to kits, each came with simple directions, a child could follow, and someone with crippling arthritis was still able to accomplish each kit and improvement. In fact, one time I had my wife do some simple soldering because at the time, I couldn't.

If new releases were of never produced cars or engines, I could see my way to purchases. But to re-hash engines over and over making each one like throw-a-ways. One other great thing about the kits, if something went wrong, you could fix it yourself with a new kit.

As to voiding warranties, who hasn't opened a shell to change batteries, instal a new bulb, changed traction tires or smoke wicks. Its just as easy to add a new module. I had several engines upgraded by different people, but quit when I had to keep asking to send the removed parts and batteries back, should have been included when job done. I find its not as hard, and might take me longer then average person, but I enjoy fiddling and saying I did it.

Gosh, why did you ever start with O-scale?

 

I hear the ps2 and ps3 and cant tell a difference nor with the other sound. I dont think they will offer upgrades because you see how many post just on this site where the stuff doesnt work right and broken. They offer it in a new loco because of the reliability i believe now. Thats why i enjoy my custom built 2 rail brass, my jerry white, fred icken, bill lenoir etc... Locos are all running perfect, they have their original drives that run smooth as a well oiled machine. Some of my locos are near 80 years old and run better smoother than new stuff. American made products win everytime!

First off, both companies do offer sound upgrade kits and if you have ever installed any ERR TMCC upgrades you would know they are all scre terminals do no soldering is required. As for depleting vial loads, I have the vision line big boy and it's just not that cool. It's awesome the first time you run the loco then you can really care less. If you want upgraded smoke I can give you the part number for MTH smoke units. As for comparing n scale and HO scale DCC sound decides, that's comparing spelled to oranges. There are dozens of manufacturers all adhering to a national if not international standard and for o gauge you have Lionel and s the companies that use their standard and system then you have MTH. I've done tons of really tricky installs of sound in N and HO scale locos and I can tell you it's not the same deal.

I love trains, and if you ever seen someone with crippling arthritis, even trying to re-rail, or open a box to remove a new purchase, you would know. At present, my wife or friends help me a lot. Sometimes now, I'm lucky I can make one hand curl over a car to put on track.
Its hard to explain to someone that isn't in my position Gunrunner, but then, should I?

Sorry I asked, but you seemed so dissatisfied with O-scale I just wondered why you went that way.  I can understand that the larger form factor is a bonus, it's the same reason I stick with O-gauge.

 

I've often thought about a locomotive with half a dozen mini-USB ports inside where you simply plugged in the feature modules you want.  Everything would sell as a basic conventional locomotive, then you add a Legacy module, Odyssey module, or whatever else.  Want fancy horn sounds?  There's a plug-in for that.  Crew talk?  There's a plug-in for that.  Want to turn your favorite postwar into Legacy?  Solder the port to power and plug in the Legacy module.  Upgrades would be both software and hardware-based.

 

It's glaring in its "a la carte" simplicity--wouldn't sell more trains, so it's certainly not economically viable for the manufacturers.

two quick comments:

 

mth has had ps2 upgrade kits for several years....

 

we're not HO /N gauge here.....

 

jim

Selling a $290 kit rather than a $2900 loco? Naw.

 

Not everything can have a "warranty" (life is full of failure).

=====

BTW, I saw a reference above to ERR kits "requiring soldering". They do not.

If you intend to get fancy and do more custom installations (I often do), soldering may

be called for.

 

Electrical soldering is an easy skill to learn; one just has to do it, and do it some more - but then we live in a country where perfectly healthy young males cannot "drive a stick shift", so, yeah, I guess that soldering has become rocket science, huh? 

 

Precision soldering of brass detail parts, however, is something that only wizards and elves can do. Bless the inventor of epoxy. 

I seriously doubt that many people install the ERR Cruise Commander without soldering.

This would be a move I'd support. Of course, I'm 33 - I've got a lot of years of locomotive purchases ahead of me.     

 

Right now, up-cycling isn't monetarily advantageous. I'd be buying up all the MTH PS1 and Weaver models floating around out there if it were.  

 

Add in some form of RC control - that doesn't require TMCC / DCS and I'd be all in - a plug in play lionchief remote or a plug-in bluetooth device.  Run all the manufactures on the same layout without the hassle of command systems. 

I love purchasing a new engine that has command control, wonderful sounds and extra features that function right out of the box.  At 68, I have way too many projects that I will never be able to get to so why would I want another one.

 

I also have garden RR and I have nothing but frustration trying to get a command control and sounds system to work together.  The best and least expensive I have found is older TAS TMCC kits for G trains.  Least expensive and easiest to install.

 

All I can say is THANK YOU Lionel and MTH for your wonderful command systems that function so well together!

 

God!  What a great time to be in this hobby!

 

Happy railroading,

Don

It's been mentioned above that manufacturers won't be interested because they would rather sell newer more expensive items and updates to previous releases.

Revenue and profits motivation
... right?

Well what if they controlled the upgrade process?

First an analogy about cost and profit:

Even after the initial investment equivalent to a years salary It's still more profitable to use a manufacture or general purpose robot 1/10 slower than people if it can operate at 1/100 the cost..........= More profit.

So....back to model trains....

Manufacturers control and charge for the upgrades....

1.) Manufactures install the upgrades. Ship it in. Complete. Ship it back.This ensures the quality control and helps the layman user.

2.) People still want newer locomotives and build to order is answering that need for the customer and for the manufacturer.  That solution works now and it's reasonable that it will continue.

3.) Even though manufacturer might not sell as many new locomotives at full cost and existing margin. They can charge an upgrade cost of half the price of a new engine and still make a greater profit margin on the transaction because of the lower cost of electronics and easier local shipping.

Shipping a crate of upgrade parts and boards from Asia  to install on locally shipped locos here has got to be less costly than building complete locos in Asia and shipping a crate full of them here.

4.) 1/2 the price charged but 1/10th the cost equals more profit...right?

Admittedly I have no idea what the cost and margins are for the manufacturers but generalities aside, from an untapped market perspective no one I know of has seriously examined this revenue stream. Just look at this For Sale forum or eBay. How many upgrades could be charged and banked from that pool?

I know I'm taking some liberties with my argument but maybe someone smarter than me with a more intimate knowledge of the details of the industry could make or break this idea......

Then again, the trouble of upgrading someone's old junk vs the fire-and-forget of making new and washing hands of it after warranty, it simply might not be worth it.

Posting a change, or asking for something not yet out there, or even comparing it to same hobby, just different sizes. Doesn't mean I'm dissatisfied, rather possible asking for improvements, at least in my eyes. Odd, how some questions seem to fall into an area of the writer seemingly being dissatisfied immediately, or disgruntled?
Same as asking the manufacturers to compromise on one universal control system.

I buy a locomotive for what it is, not the electronics, if any, inside. 

 

I'm just as happy with a conventional locomotive as I am with a tricked-out locomotive.

 

Rusty

The focus here seems to be steam locomotives....

I have a variety of modern diesels. I watch real trains a lot so I tend to model more what I see at the tracks. One thing that's always bugged me is the incompatibility between systems. My TMCC BN SD70MAC looks really nice with my PS2 BNSF AC4400. But, if I want to run them together, it isn't happening. That's one plus of HO and N, having DCC, but that's another discussion....

I like the idea of the plug in boards. A mini-USB would be cool for horns, or with an MTH sound file type setup be able to have the horn as a seperate file. It's rare that they put the prototypically correct horn on the engine, so being able to make it correct or just pick your favorite sounding horn/whistle would be nice.

Upgrades would be useful for a lot of things. I just purchased a "command ready" CSX SD60. Lionel made it in the older CSX (YN2) paint scheme in both TMCC and an updated Legacy version. But this one is the only one with the new (YN3) paint, which I prefer. In order to use it with my other engine I have to upgrade it. So, upgrades are really useful for older unique models that were only made in one run and haven't been offered since.

Trevor

WITZ 41, I agree with your line of thinking.

 

What you are saying is almost happening right now. I am currently having a steam locomotive upgraded to PS 3.0 by Jeff at JDS Limited Productions. This is Jeff's side business as he is a full time employee for MTH. I shipped the locomotive to him and he is installing the electronics and making a mod for the wireless tether. This is almost exactly what you described except it isn't the factory doing the work but someone who works there.

 

 

Guess it would come down to operator or tinkerer.

 

In R/C Planes, the ready to fly caught on because people wanted to fly their planes not build them.

I am a runner when it comes to the new stuff (like MTH) I like the new features... Upgrades are a good idea. (Garmin upgrades my maps for free).  But I have sold older PS1 while they still had value and invested in the newer model...  I see the trains as consumables, like your clock radio or your car.... Use it. Have fun, it breaks buy a new one!

Nice thing about this hobby... Lots of ways to have fun in it!