Excursions back?

The R&N owns the locomotive, cars, and track. They don’t need Amtrak. It’s different than if a historical society wants to run their engine on someone else’s railroad...

UP owns their stuff and they aren't running excursions and I was told it was Amtraks decision about the insurance that had it all shut down. I heard about it when I was looking into going on an excursion with 4014 and was informed that those days were over. Then I see the R&N excursion and got curious about it.

R&N is running their excursions out of Jim Thorpe PA not on amtrack in NJ. they had 425 on point last weekend and this weekend, then it will be back to diesel for the rest of the season.  It was on hold over a tax issue that has been resolved.  I rented the caboose last weekend for one of the trips. it was the best ride ever!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgomoeNnuI8

The photo was near Jim Thorpe, PA on the Reading & Northern's tourist arm, the Lehigh Gorge Scenic Railway.  R&N has been operating trips on their own since 2009, primarily either short runs on the LGSR or day-long October trips from North Reading/Port Clinton to Jim Thorpe.  They have occasionally run on the northern end of the railroad as well.  Whether the long trips from North Reading will happen this year or not is unknown.  Best steam show in the East for years.  425 is a loud engine, and they aren't afraid to work it either.  Open window coaches and they run at a good speed.  They are going to do a second weekend of steam ops on LGSR this coming weekend.  It's a great ride, and easy to get trackside in the gorge near Glen Onoko to watch the trips go blasting uphill.

@Mike D posted:

UP owns their stuff and they aren't running excursions and I was told it was Amtraks decision about the insurance that had it all shut down. I heard about it when I was looking into going on an excursion with 4014 and was informed that those days were over. Then I see the R&N excursion and got curious about it.

The insurance only affects those groups that are trying to run on someone else's railroad (primarily a Class 1) with public trips.  UP, by and large, doesn't run passenger trips and what few they do don't go through Amtrak.  It doesn't affect them.  Of course, the current virus situation is affecting everyone, so no trips this year for safety concerns.

The Amtrak insurance affects most of the other big steam operators though.  Milwaukee 261, N&W 611, NKP 765.  There's times you can get around it like the 765 Metra trips or 261 on the Twin Cities and Western or running on a shortline/tourist line (aka Cuyahoga Valley).  If you want to run your trip on a Class 1 like Norfolk Southern or BNSF, you have to have Amtrak insurance for them to even be willing to talk to you.  Once NS discontinued their excursions in 2017, there was a possibility of 611 being able to run a schedule of NS trips under the Amtrak insurance umbrella.  Amtrak deciding they didn't want to do that anymore meant that there hasn't been any mainline excursions with 611 since then.  Same with 261 and their trips to Duluth.

@Mike D posted:

UP owns their stuff and they aren't running excursions

That's because in order for UP to operate an excursion, either steam or diesel, some outside sponsoring organization MUST lead the entire train from UP. Then that sponsoring organization sells the tickets to the public and subsequently pays the UP. It has been quite a number of years since any railfan organizations have been flush enough to organize and staff any such "excursions" on the UP. Even the Denver Post Newspaper dropped out of sponsoring the famous Cheyenne Frontier Days Special between Denver & Cheyenne. 

and I was told it was Amtraks decision about the insurance that had it all shut down.

Amtrak had/has absolutely NOTHING to do with ANY "excursions" on the UP system. However, excursions on BNSF or other major railroads with Amtrak routes, have been canceled by the top management of Amtrak, as well as many private car "outings" on Amtrak passenger trains.

I heard about it when I was looking into going on an excursion with 4014 and was informed that those days were over.

Well, not really "over" on the UP, unless the UP decides to participate in some sort of special "fund raising trip" for a non-profit organization, as was done in 2019.

Then I see the R&N excursion and got curious about it.

As stated above, it's their own locomotive, cars, and railroad, plus they have their own liability insurance coverage.

That's because in order for UP to operate an excursion, either steam or diesel, some outside sponsoring organization MUST lead the entire train from UP. Then that sponsoring organization sells the tickets to the public and subsequently pays the UP. It has been quite a number of years since any railfan organizations have been flush enough to organize and staff any such "excursions" on the UP. Even the Denver Post Newspaper dropped out of sponsoring the famous Cheyenne Frontier Days Special between Denver & Cheyenne. 

Okay now you have me curious about the situation on the UP. Why is it that another entity MUST lease the train? Is the UP not allowed to run passenger trains themselves? Corporate policy? Legalities concerning Amtrak? I'll admit, I have no idea how excursions or passenger ops outside of Amtrak work. I do know that I really wanted to take a trip behind 4014 one day and it doesn't look like that is going to happen. Thanks to all for your insight.

@Mike D posted:

That's because in order for UP to operate an excursion, either steam or diesel, some outside sponsoring organization MUST lead the entire train from UP. Then that sponsoring organization sells the tickets to the public and subsequently pays the UP. It has been quite a number of years since any railfan organizations have been flush enough to organize and staff any such "excursions" on the UP. Even the Denver Post Newspaper dropped out of sponsoring the famous Cheyenne Frontier Days Special between Denver & Cheyenne. 

Okay now you have me curious about the situation on the UP. Why is it that another entity MUST lease the train? Is the UP not allowed to run passenger trains themselves? Corporate policy? Legalities concerning Amtrak? I'll admit, I have no idea how excursions or passenger ops outside of Amtrak work. I do know that I really wanted to take a trip behind 4014 one day and it doesn't look like that is going to happen. Thanks to all for your insight.

Corporate policy.

Rusty

@Mike D posted:

Okay now you have me curious about the situation on the UP. Why is it that another entity MUST lease the train? Is the UP not allowed to run passenger trains themselves?

Railroading is a business. No railroad is going to run an excursion unless there is some value in it for them.

In the Union Pacific's case, it will either be tremendous PR value, as was evident in shoving the Big Boy around the railroad last year, or someone has to pony up money to lease the train for a special trip of some kind. No railroad is going to run an excursion just for the heck of it.

As I said at the top of my post, Railroading is a business. I think some of you forget that.

@Mike D posted:

That's because in order for UP to operate an excursion, either steam or diesel, some outside sponsoring organization MUST lead the entire train from UP. Then that sponsoring organization sells the tickets to the public and subsequently pays the UP. It has been quite a number of years since any railfan organizations have been flush enough to organize and staff any such "excursions" on the UP. Even the Denver Post Newspaper dropped out of sponsoring the famous Cheyenne Frontier Days Special between Denver & Cheyenne. 

Okay now you have me curious about the situation on the UP. Why is it that another entity MUST lease the train? Is the UP not allowed to run passenger trains themselves?

Correct! Ever since the creation of Amtrak, absolutely NO class 1 railroad is allowed to operate passenger trains, and sell tickets to the public on such a train. That is part of the federal law that created Amtrak.

Corporate policy? Legalities concerning Amtrak?

Yes!

I'll admit, I have no idea how excursions or passenger ops outside of Amtrak work. I do know that I really wanted to take a trip behind 4014 one day and it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

For what it's worth, those two "fund raiser" trips behind 4014 were $500 per coach seat, up to $2500 for a dome seat. That is why they were "fund raisers" for those organizations.

Thanks to all for your insight.

UP, as of now, DOES run passenger trains.  Under contract for METRA. But those are commuter trains in Chicagoland.  Intercity, NO.  However, UP is trying to hand over that operation to METRA.

Three Class did operate interstate trains after May 1, 1971.  The Southern, the Rio Grande, and the Rock Island.  Southern and the Grande joined Amtrak later.  The Rock went bankrupt.  I have read the Rock could not afford the Amtrak entry fee.

So, yes, as of now, no Class 1's run on their own, intercity passenger trains.

@Rich Melvin posted:

Railroading is a business. No railroad is going to run an excursion unless there is some value in it for them.

In the Union Pacific's case, it will either be tremendous PR value, as was evident in shoving the Big Boy around the railroad last year, or someone has to pony up money to lease the train for a special trip of some kind. No railroad is going to run an excursion just for the heck of it.

As I said at the top of my post, Railroading is a business. I think some of you forget that.

Rich, I never doubted that railroading is a business and that railroads won't do something unless it creates revenue. I am familiar with the events that lead to the creation of Amtrak. I was under the impression that the class one's were operating these excursions and that there was some money to be made by running limited excursions and that is why the class one's would run them. Aviation pays the bills in my house, not trains, so I have no idea how some things work in the train world. That is why I asked these questions, so I would learn how this works. Thanks to the responses I received, I have a much better understanding of how the excursion business works now.

Hot Water, very good info there. I had no idea that railroads were forbidden by law from selling passenger tickets.

The Arkansas and Missouri has restarted excursion service on a limited basis between Springdale-Van Buren-Winslow.  Next excursion is on August 29th.  

https://www.etix.com/ticket/v/...as-missouri-railroad

Mitch 

I highly recommend a trip behind 425 if you ever get the chance. It’s a well run railroad. I had a great time last fall.