Goodbye DCS Remote announced at York - Bummer

Ray Lombardo posted:

Captaincog posted:

Wow.

I was at the DCS dinner and what I heard must have been completely ignored. MTH stated their focus in on the Wifi and tablet/phone apps but would continue to manufacture and support the DCS remote as long as they could. Component obsolescence is the factor where MTH flatly stated if they cannot find something to do the job to make the DCS remotes in the future then MTH would be finished with the DCS remote.

I thought their discussion was fair and honest. There is supposed to be another shipment of remotes and parts coming in according to MTH. How did no one else hear this? 

If they stopped making DCS today there is still enough product out there to keep working for many years and likely beyond.

This sky is falling and focusing on the negative is beyond me.

The remotes are there and MTH is listening to their customers so go run some trains and enjoy the hobby.

Jeff,

I agree with you 100% but realize the nature of this forum has become such that it is more fun, seemingly, for people to complain.  And then there is a contingent that is either a Lionel or MTH fan and will jump on the other firm whenever the opportunity presents itself.  As a long time hobbyist, my view is that Lionel, MTH, Williams and others are offering great products right now.  We have it very good in this hobby, as compared to when I was a kid in the 70s and 80s and a new paint scheme on a crappy running wobbly diesel was exciting.  Now we have something for everyone, from postwar enthusiasts to the scale end of the hobby. 

The reality is that there are DCS remote handhelds available for the foreseeable future.  When the time comes that the availability of the internals is a problem, MTH is giving people plenty of advance warning that in this day and age, when people use phones for everything, they are not going to spend what will likely be hundreds of thousands of dollars redesigning a remote from the early 2000s.  Instead, folks will need to learn to use the app or store up some spare remotes.  In the alternative, it might all become moot as things may move to a universal standard.  That's really all, as you said.  No one is snatching the product for arbitrary reasons.  As was raised during the whole TMCC upgrade availability controversy when Lionel announced the end of ERR, MTH is giving people plenty of warning that hardware won't be available forever.  But as I suspected when Lionel discontinued TMCC upgrade hardware, sometimes you just cannot make people happy (3rd Rail picked it up and then people started complaining because they charged more!!) and so you have to just do what is best for the firm.  If I am Howard Hitchcock or Mike Wolf and I read this forum regularly -- that's what I've concluded - that there is no way to keep certain people happy so you do what is best for the firm, in your judgment, and you move on.

I never thought I would say this, but I think it is time for the moderators to perhaps start deleting threads again.  I enjoy the forum for the hobby advice but the constant stream of complaints ("my new Niagra won't do X!  It's a disgrace!") is really old and reflects poorly on the hobby.

Best regards.   

Hi Ray,

I am sorry you feel that way/view this discussion in such a manor. This is a forum after all and by definition, a place to express and discuss. If you feel one way, we are more than happy to hear what you have to say, but please dont say we are wrong in any way in expressing our feelings on a platform literally designed to do so. I think this forum is one of the most powerful tools we have. I love it exactly as it is and I appreciate every view, be it in line with my own or not.

I am sorry if anything that I have personally said came off as whining, to me I was just expressing my opinion.

Its announcements like this by MTH, problems with products by other. Getting replacement parts, etc.. That is taking the fun and enjoyment of Model Railroading away for me. Its not the change of controlling, but its that I may not have a choice nor "how I like to operate" that is taken away.

Nuff said from me on this but if so, looks like future funds will go in a different direction and different hobby. I'm losing the enjoyment with these type of announcements.

Ya know what - I Have to laugh. The parts in the wireless interface can meet a end of life. The iPad experience is nothing like a hand held controller.

There is frequent mention in the thread about the ability of the app to have more features added.  I wonder how many serious operators want more of the chaff, as opposed to the ability to control trains independently and operate switches and accessories remotely, which we already have in the remote. 

I need the remote as my layout is in the garden and about 200 feet from my house.

Paul

Paul,

Not really.

Just operate in MTH mode, where the smartphone or tablet communicates directly with one or multiple TIUs.

If this comes to pass, I won't buy any new MTH engines. Using the DCS remote is fun - and I have no desire to run trains from a Smart device.

Hi Folks,

I meant to post our position to the thread yesterday after interacting with Bryant earlier in the day, but got a bit busy and flat out forgot.  Anyway, it's great to read the comments and sense the passion everyone has about model trains, M.T.H. and our DCS system.  We follow the OGR Forum (and other online forums) daily so we're aware of the interest in this topic.  Below are a few points about the evolution of DCS for your consideration.

1. We are still producing the remotes and still market them in our catalogs (it's prominently featured on page 9 of the just-published 2019 Volume 1 catalog). We expect the production run currently in process will provide us with enough inventory to last a sufficient period of time. That run will include spare parts (typically thumbwheels and LCD screens) for our service needs.

2. This past February we did kill off the sku that featured the combo pack of the TIU and Remote (item number 50-1001) when we released our 2018 Ready-to-Run Train Set and Accessory catalog. That sku has been replaced with item 50-1036 which is a combo pack of the WIU and TIU.

3. We believe our current marketing approach to create a combo pack of WIU and TIU is a solid strategy given (1) the significant incursion of smart devices in homes today (remember, the WIU can be controlled by a smartphone or a tablet) and (2) the continued likelihood that such devices will become even more ubiquitous in our lifestyles moving forward. In short, we believe there is no escaping smart devices and the ever-increasing familiarity with such devices will offset the occasional forum reference that a smart device can't replace the "touch and feel" of the remote.

4. When embarking on the development of WiFi/Smart Device control of DCS, we were, in fact, very concerned that one would miss the interaction between train and layout when operating DCS if you had to spend an exorbitant amount of time looking at the screen rather than watching the action. We realized, however, that smart device control over DCS was far more intuitive and faster (especially when accessing most DCS features) than when using the DCS remote. Because more information is on the larger, color smart device screens than the four-line gray-scale LCD screen of the remote, there is actually less to remember when using the smart device. And, there is no question that WiFi is a much faster protocol than the 900mhz radio transmission of the DCS remote.

5. At some point in the future, the remote in its current form will likely become obsolete because of component end-of-life issues. What this means is that some of the components (typically the processor) will cease to be produced by the component manufacturers. When that occurs it requires we spec a substitute processor that may or may not exist in the component marketplace and typically incurs a redesign of the board itself if the product is going to continue to be offered in our DCS lineup. If the former occurs (no substitute processor exists) then the latter can't happen. Additionally, the latter will incur costs that we may deem too expensive to pursue. Remember, this is an 18-year-old device that has largely remained unchanged since its release in the year 2000.

6. There is no question that when the DCS Remote reaches end-of-life, M.T.H. could develop a replacement remote that would retain the touch and feel that is important to current remote owners. However, in today's dollars and with such a small target market, the costs to develop that remote (and hope it equals or exceeds the life of the current 18-year-old remote in our product line) would likely result in a device at least as costly as the current remote. As smart devices become more and more ubiquitous, how many customers can we reasonably expect to shell out $200.00 for a device that still wouldn't be as powerful as the smart device they either already own or will own in time? Is that the right allocation of our funding in today's marketplace?

7. When we introduced Proto-Sound 2.0 and DCS in 2000, we continued to offer conventional transformers and conventional locomotives (those without modern electronics and features even though Proto-Sound 2.0 and later engines can be operated in conventional mode) because we knew some segments of the target market would not find the modern features appealing. Over the next decade, conventional locomotive sales fell to such a low point that they were discontinued. In short, the market evolved as the overwhelming majority of consumers realized that modern features made those locomotives more fun. A similar approach is now happening with smart devices and WiFi control even as the DCS Remote remains a part of our product line. The difference this time is that the transition will take less than ten years, seem less jarring and be a less expensive process.

8. Finally, moving forward, the DCS Remote can and will still operate alongside the DCS App and a smart device that is controlling existing DCS TIUs just as they did when we transitioned to Proto-Sound 3.0. The beauty of the DCS system is that for 18 years it has evolved - an impressive feat within the world of technology. The software inside the TIU and the Remote is markedly different than when it first appeared when DCS was initially released. We've provided those software enhancements to our consumers for free the entire time. We've gone above and beyond to allow customers to bring that initial hardware up to the same feature set as today's hardware. We're certainly not trying to abandon that approach moving forward. Indeed, app releases with new features - like a playable horn in 2019 Premier Diesels - are a great example of that continuing approach. But even if the remote can still be produced for another dozen years, not all of those features will be accessible in a hardware design that old. Already, users controlling Lionel Legacy features with the Premium version of the App cannot replicate those functions with the DCS Remote. The remote, like a TV that can't reproduce 4K video, simply isn't capable. It's too old.

Andy Edleman posted:

Hi Folks,

I meant to post our position to the thread yesterday after interacting with Bryant earlier in the day, but got a bit busy and flat out forgot.  Anyway, it's great to read the comments and sense the passion everyone has about model trains, M.T.H. and our DCS system.  We follow the OGR Forum (and other online forums) daily so we're aware of the interest in this topic.  Below are a few points about the evolution of DCS for your consideration.

1. We are still producing the remotes and still market them in our catalogs (it's prominently featured on page 9 of the just-published 2019 Volume 1 catalog). We expect the production run currently in process will provide us with enough inventory to last a sufficient period of time. That run will include spare parts (typically thumbwheels and LCD screens) for our service needs.

2. This past February we did kill off the sku that featured the combo pack of the TIU and Remote (item number 50-1001) when we released our 2018 Ready-to-Run Train Set and Accessory catalog. That sku has been replaced with item 50-1036 which is a combo pack of the WIU and TIU.

3. We believe our current marketing approach to create a combo pack of WIU and TIU is a solid strategy given (1) the significant incursion of smart devices in homes today (remember, the WIU can be controlled by a smartphone or a tablet) and (2) the continued likelihood that such devices will become even more ubiquitous in our lifestyles moving forward. In short, we believe there is no escaping smart devices and the ever-increasing familiarity with such devices will offset the occasional forum reference that a smart device can't replace the "touch and feel" of the remote.

4. When embarking on the development of WiFi/Smart Device control of DCS, we were, in fact, very concerned that one would miss the interaction between train and layout when operating DCS if you had to spend an exorbitant amount of time looking at the screen rather than watching the action. We realized, however, that smart device control over DCS was far more intuitive and faster (especially when accessing most DCS features) than when using the DCS remote. Because more information is on the larger, color smart device screens than the four-line gray-scale LCD screen of the remote, there is actually less to remember when using the smart device. And, there is no question that WiFi is a much faster protocol than the 900mhz radio transmission of the DCS remote.

5. At some point in the future, the remote in its current form will likely become obsolete because of component end-of-life issues. What this means is that some of the components (typically the processor) will cease to be produced by the component manufacturers. When that occurs it requires we spec a substitute processor that may or may not exist in the component marketplace and typically incurs a redesign of the board itself if the product is going to continue to be offered in our DCS lineup. If the former occurs (no substitute processor exists) then the latter can't happen. Additionally, the latter will incur costs that we may deem too expensive to pursue. Remember, this is an 18-year-old device that has largely remained unchanged since its release in the year 2000.

6. There is no question that when the DCS Remote reaches end-of-life, M.T.H. could develop a replacement remote that would retain the touch and feel that is important to current remote owners. However, in today's dollars and with such a small target market, the costs to develop that remote (and hope it equals or exceeds the life of the current 18-year-old remote in our product line) would likely result in a device at least as costly as the current remote. As smart devices become more and more ubiquitous, how many customers can we reasonably expect to shell out $200.00 for a device that still wouldn't be as powerful as the smart device they either already own or will own in time? Is that the right allocation of our funding in today's marketplace?

7. When we introduced Proto-Sound 2.0 and DCS in 2000, we continued to offer conventional transformers and conventional locomotives (those without modern electronics and features even though Proto-Sound 2.0 and later engines can be operated in conventional mode) because we knew some segments of the target market would not find the modern features appealing. Over the next decade, conventional locomotive sales fell to such a low point that they were discontinued. In short, the market evolved as the overwhelming majority of consumers realized that modern features made those locomotives more fun. A similar approach is now happening with smart devices and WiFi control even as the DCS Remote remains a part of our product line. The difference this time is that the transition will take less than ten years, seem less jarring and be a less expensive process.

8. Finally, moving forward, the DCS Remote can and will still operate alongside the DCS App and a smart device that is controlling existing DCS TIUs just as they did when we transitioned to Proto-Sound 3.0. The beauty of the DCS system is that for 18 years it has evolved - an impressive feat within the world of technology. The software inside the TIU and the Remote is markedly different than when it first appeared when DCS was initially released. We've provided those software enhancements to our consumers for free the entire time. We've gone above and beyond to allow customers to bring that initial hardware up to the same feature set as today's hardware. We're certainly not trying to abandon that approach moving forward. Indeed, app releases with new features - like a playable horn in 2019 Premier Diesels - are a great example of that continuing approach. But even if the remote can still be produced for another dozen years, not all of those features will be accessible in a hardware design that old. Already, users controlling Lionel Legacy features with the Premium version of the App cannot replicate those functions with the DCS Remote. The remote, like a TV that can't reproduce 4K video, simply isn't capable. It's too old.

Thank you Andy.    I knew you would respond and it is much appreciated.  Great meeting Mike and your staff at York.  I'm hooked.

Thanks very much, Andy, for your input to this thread and for explaining, succinctly and clearly, the position of the manufacturer and the logic involved in making these types of decisions. I'm an "old fart" who cut his teeth with conventional control, graduated to handheld remotes, and am now venturing into the world of WiFi, Bluetooth, and who-knows-what next. If I can adapt through the learning curve, anyone can.

shawn posted:

Ya know what - I Have to laugh. The parts in the wireless interface can meet a end of life. The iPad experience is nothing like a hand held controller.

Very doubtful, to say the least. The wifi interface itself is industry standard and the hardware to support that is plentiful and cheap, and the beauty of using a tablet/smartphone is the hardware doesn't matter, it is totally based in software. If a new OS comes available on a new platform, the app can be ported there. Not to mention that the same thing applies to the current TIU hardware that the remote connects to, and it has been out there for 18  years and is still kicking away from what I can tell....not to mention that the TIU/WIU is the core of MTH's business, all their engines are command control. 

There is another benefit I could only speculate on (and that is all it is), the mobile app sometime in the future could allow for something like lionchief, to allow direct connection to an engine via wifi (the only problem with that is switching from one engine to another the way the TIU does isn't as simple with wifi, each engine would have to have its own wifi id and switching would be the smart device switching what wifi it connects to..), saves the tiu and wiu in theory. 

Thanks, Andy, for a great reply, appreciate letting people know what is going on. One thought I had, right now you support Android and IOS, any thought of supporting windows? With the ultra light notebook/notepad hybrid like the MS Slate or the like models made by other manufacturers, those would be practical for train control as well because they are both a laptop and a tablet, and they are pretty light, plus  support touch screen control via windows 10/11. 

I understand the problems with the current remote. I struggle outside to run my G scale with a phone. I just can't see it. I try to go into the shady areas but it is very difficult.

 I do like the app's features used thru my phone. I like the playable whistle while keeping the engine controls active for example. So I would be willing to forget the remote if possible. I wonder if a remote could be built out of a phone that would still have dedicated buttons for control? I read the cost guess above and can only say I would be a buyer if I continue running outside.

 I feel that I would be pushed into using a different brand of control if there's no usable option with DCS outside. Having to stand inside my shed to run trains, I feel like I'm tethered to the TIU.

 I will look forward to the app's development in the future. I think there maybe a lot more it could do if the current remote was trashed?

I WILL NOT run my trains with a device suseptible to HACKING , VIRUSES , CRASHES and GOVERNMENT SPYING ETC

call me a 23 year old nostagia man but transformers and DCS /LEGACY remotes are the only way trains will run on Allegheny Federation and Aurora Northern

I hate to admit it, but with each new advance in technology, Brio Trains are starting to look more and more appealing to me. 

paigetrain posted:

I WILL NOT run my trains with a device suseptible to HACKING , VIRUSES , CRASHES and GOVERNMENT SPYING ETC

call me a 23 year old nostagia man but transformers and DCS /LEGACY remotes are the only way trains will run on Allegheny Federation and Aurora Northern

That’s a bit paranoid. 

shawn posted:

Ya know what - I Have to laugh. The parts in the wireless interface can meet a end of life. The iPad experience is nothing like a hand held controller.

I would assume that MTH is looking for the software to evolve on the iPad, which it can do. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of evolution in a solid state handheld. 

paigetrain posted:

I WILL NOT run my trains with a device suseptible to HACKING , VIRUSES , CRASHES and GOVERNMENT SPYING ETC

call me a 23 year old nostagia man but transformers and DCS /LEGACY remotes are the only way trains will run on Allegheny Federation and Aurora Northern

I guess the Russians already hacked my railroad:

Rusty

paigetrain posted:

I WILL NOT run my trains with a device suseptible to HACKING , VIRUSES , CRASHES and GOVERNMENT SPYING ETC

call me a 23 year old nostagia man but transformers and DCS /LEGACY remotes are the only way trains will run on Allegheny Federation and Aurora Northern

Just run conventional if you think there would be a problem.

MartyE posted:

paigetrain posted:

I WILL NOT run my trains with a device suseptible to HACKING , VIRUSES , CRASHES and GOVERNMENT SPYING ETC

call me a 23 year old nostagia man but transformers and DCS /LEGACY remotes are the only way trains will run on Allegheny Federation and Aurora Northern

That’s a bit paranoid. 

I was just thinking that.

Carl Peduzzi posted:

shawn posted:

Ya know what - I Have to laugh. The parts in the wireless interface can meet a end of life. The iPad experience is nothing like a hand held controller.

I would assume that MTH is looking for the software to evolve on the iPad, which it can do. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of evolution in a solid state handheld. 

Plus, Apple sells more iPads and iPhones than all the model train companies combined sell trains, so Apple can better afford the costs when a component reaches end of life.

Rusty

Engineer-Joe posted:

I understand the problems with the current remote. I struggle outside to run my G scale with a phone. I just can't see it. I try to go into the shady areas but it is very difficult.

 I do like the app's features used thru my phone. I like the playable whistle while keeping the engine controls active for example. So I would be willing to forget the remote if possible. I wonder if a remote could be built out of a phone that would still have dedicated buttons for control? I read the cost guess above and can only say I would be a buyer if I continue running outside.

 I feel that I would be pushed into using a different brand of control if there's no usable option with DCS outside. Having to stand inside my shed to run trains, I feel like I'm tethered to the TIU.

 I will look forward to the app's development in the future. I think there maybe a lot more it could do if the current remote was trashed?

Sunlight visible tablets and phones do exist and while Apple, Samsung and Google all build great phones, they are a bit marginal when it comes to their sunlight viewable aspects. There are rugged devices that perform much better in this area.

It wouldn't be hard at all for MTH or Lionel to develop a game-pad interface to be used with their apps. There are tons of choices for smartphone / tablet game-pads on amazon that will give you the physical buttons you want as well as a way secure the device to the game-pad.

MartyE posted:

That’s a bit paranoid. 

A bit??

Joe,

I don’t run outdoors so have not experienced the sunlight issue that you describe. However, have you tried both Apple and Android devices, as well as the Kindle Fire?

Regardless, you could try rigging a “sunshade” on your phone or tablet to reduce glare.

bigkid posted:

sinclair posted:

Without a remote I will definitely not be getting DCS.  But since PS-3 locomotives are DCC, then I'll just control them that way.

Mike was at my LHS a year or so ago and I went down.  He was hyping the app and WiFi.  Went to try to put it on my phone, and couldn't, my phone was too old.  It was an iPhone, but not the latest and greatest, and the app needed a newer version of iOS then I had.  So with a puzzled look (Like "Why would someone not have the latest and greatest?"  Sorry, not all of us are made of money.) he handed me and my son his phone to try the app with.  I spent enough time with it to know that I'd never like running my trains that way.  And my son kept pushing the physical button on the phone, zero interest in the touch screen, so that told me the app was a no go for him to.  Kids love real buttons.

Unless your apple phone was really old, IOS upgrades don't cost anything. There does come a time when older phones don't have the resources to run a newer version of the OS, but there are plenty of apple devices out there not of the latest generation that run IOS 11 and will run IOS 12 when it is fully released (if it already hasn't been).  Not questioning if you run an older phone or why, I understand what you are saying, but unless you need new hardware OS upgrades don't cost anything. 

It's a 4s.  Yes it's old.  I don't believe in going out and getting the new iPhone every year.  I use it until it absolutely doesn't work any more.  And if I did get the newest iPhone I wouldn't be able to use over 75% of the apps I do use because they haven't been updated in equally as long, nor are they even in the app store anymore.  But then I'm one of the guys that is still unhappy that Apple quite making iPods.  I am not a fan of all-in-one type devices.  If I ever do get DCS, I wouldn't ever run my TMCC/Legacy locomotives with that remove even though it can.  I like to keep things separate.  It's easier to control and keep track of things.  I do have a universal remote for my TV/DVD/Radio and such, but find it much faster to just pick up the 2-3 dedicated remotes and control things that way then trying to find the controls in the touch screen of the universal remote.

It's good that someone from MTH did post.  But there is one point I'd like to make.  They talked of how they dropped conventional locomotives because people stopped buying them.  That makes sense since they offered both conventional and command at the same time.  But the logic is flawed in trying to apply that to WiFi verses remote like they did.  To really know if this is what currently works in the market they need to offer both the TIU/Remote and TIU/WiFi bundles at the same time.  By dropping the remote bundle, of course the WiFi bundle is going to sell, it's the only bundle out there.  Most new to the hobby won't realize they can buy the TIU and remote separately as their LHS won't tell them that, they'll only offer info on the bundle.  If MTH had offered both bundles for at least 2 years and then said they dropped the remote bundle because of poor sales, then there would be no question they made the best market choice.

I recently asked around the office if anyone had an old Android tablet they were no longer using.  One of my co-workers brought me an ASUS tablet that is a few years old but runs the MTH app without any issue.  It's only connected to the Wifi module and not the internet so I have no security concerns with it. 

While I'm not giving up my remote yet, I appreciate the advantages that using a smart device brings to the hobby.  The other plus is my kids love their smart devices and it's already rekindled some interest in the train room.  Lionel or MTH cannot do anything about technologies march forward except jump aboard with it.

Danr posted:

MartyE posted:

paigetrain posted:

I WILL NOT run my trains with a device suseptible to HACKING , VIRUSES , CRASHES and GOVERNMENT SPYING ETC

call me a 23 year old nostagia man but transformers and DCS /LEGACY remotes are the only way trains will run on Allegheny Federation and Aurora Northern

That’s a bit paranoid. 

I was just thinking that.

Obviously, Danr and MartyE, you've both been fortunate you've never been hacked and gone through the utter hell of your identities being stolen and compromised, or you'd think otherwise. May such luck continue and not run out on either of you during your lifetimes.

Thanks Andy for the reply. Obviously, MTH can do what makes sense for it and each of us either needs to adjust or find an alternative we prefer.  I wonder, however, if MTH is forgetting one of the hobby basics:

MTH says its business card is its RTR sets. That's what attracted us and made us MTH exclusive customers for several years, as we were blown away by the value proposition and felt the same about the Premier line.  We entered the hobby around 8 years ago, when my twin sons were 5, by buying two RTR RK sets.  Within weeks, I bought the TIU and 2 handheld remotes.  My sons could run trains, under supervision, simultaneously and regardless of whether I was home. At that time, only I had a smart phone in our house, and it was issued from my job. It was a violation of work policy to download non-approved apps (most companies still have this policy) and I wasn't about to give my work phone to 5 year old boys while sober.  My sons only got smart phones this year and while they like trains, its only because they grew up with them.  

If my situation had occurred after the handheld becomes no longer available, my options would be:  (a) download the app and risk getting fired and then use my phone to have each child have a consecutive turn playing with the trains - but only at night once I got home from work and on weekends if not traveling; (b) buy 2 smart phones purely for 5 year olds to run trains; (c) run MTH trains conventionally on a layout that has Legacy and command control Lionel engines, which are obviously preferable to conventional, or (d) not buy MTH trains.  

Not sure that adding difficulty will increase MTH's customer base for the future... 

PJB posted:

If my situation had occurred after the handheld becomes no longer available, my options would be:  (a) download the app and risk getting fired and then use my phone to have each child have a consecutive turn playing with the trains - but only at night once I got home from work and on weekends if not traveling; (b) buy 2 smart phones purely for 5 year olds to run trains; (c) run MTH trains conventionally on a layout that has Legacy and command control Lionel engines, which are obviously preferable to conventional, or (d) not buy MTH trains.  

Not sure that adding difficulty will increase MTH's customer base for the future...

If you can afford the trains you can afford tablets that will support the MTH app.  Your arguments have no merit it today's reality.

Here's my 2 cents, I'm a fan of simplicity and the "KISS" principle. I still use a flip-phone and just bought two steam LionChief locos to run on my DCS layout and am considering a third. At that point, I'll get a universal remote. I don't need trilling whistles nor all the other bells and baubles, just the basic functions that make running trains easy and fun. I only wish Lionel would make more scale engines in LionChief. It's too bad MTH didn't come up with this.

MichRR714 posted:

PJB posted:

If my situation had occurred after the handheld becomes no longer available, my options would be:  (a) download the app and risk getting fired and then use my phone to have each child have a consecutive turn playing with the trains - but only at night once I got home from work and on weekends if not traveling; (b) buy 2 smart phones purely for 5 year olds to run trains; (c) run MTH trains conventionally on a layout that has Legacy and command control Lionel engines, which are obviously preferable to conventional, or (d) not buy MTH trains.  

Not sure that adding difficulty will increase MTH's customer base for the future...

If you can afford the trains you can afford tablets that will support the MTH app.  Your arguments have no merit it today's reality.

Seriously?  Great discussion skills, sir. Well then, I suppose your arguments also have no merits as I can just as easily buy Lionel instead if I don't want my kids on tablets. Oh, and glad you've decided for me what I should spend my money on.   

For some time, it has been obvious that MTH would discontinue the handheld remote, and now it is official.  We don't have to like it, but we will have to live with it and learn a new way to operate trains.

Since the first leak of this, I have looked at my options, and I'm going to buy a second-hand iPad without a phone in it and just use it for train control.  Maybe I will buy another if needed.

For the foreseeable future, the existing remotes will be serviceable, and it may not be necessary for any of us over 50 to ever convert to phone or tablet,  but I'm going to do it anyway and become competent at that method.  No sense to fight progress.  Some things may work better.  The thumbwheel is slow and bothersome if one controls switches using the AIU and the handheld.  That's one improvement I look forward to.

Eccentric Crank posted:

Are  all the HO DCC companies dropping their remotes for a phone or an iPad?

I would bet the answer to that question is No. I am a big MTH fan who runs his MTH trains mostly with DCC. In the other scales like HO if a DCC manufacturer stopped making their their remote one could always buy another system that has remotes and still run all of their locomotives in command mode. I seriously doubt it will happen but if it did the user has an option since DCC is not a proprietary protocol. I am glad MTH will still support the remote for the near future. I hope the market is there for them to make a new remote some day down the line. 

Seems like most of these comments are:

This is two hard

I don't like change

I can't figure out computers

I have a fear of new things

Guys read what the MTH rep said. For now the remote isn't going away. Even if it was your old remote will still work. Everyone keeps coming up with these situations that are obscure and only impact them. For everyone else it's fine. Change is fine. It happens. If there was no change we'd all still be lighting our homes with fire and salting our meat to preserve it. Adapt to change. It's much easier than fighting it. I deal with people at work every day who are resistant to change or adopting new technology and they turn to us for help, because they have been left behind. Society and economics don't bend to your whim. 

This is supposed to be a hobby. Something you do to relax. Chill out 

Hudson J1e posted:

.................. I hope the market is there for them to make a new remote some day down the line. 

MTH's statements pretty much define that they are not interested in being in the remote hardware design business again.  The only way I would see that changing is if NO ONE adopted the Wi-Fi using a separate device.

Obviously from this thread, there are many who ARE going that path, and some embrace it fully.  Unless that was to do a 180 for some reason, I doubt very much MTH ever invests in designing a "New and Improved" version of the existing remote.

-Dave

Someone mentioned running MTH trains on DCC.  For the uninitiated how well does this work?   What are the pros and cons of DCC with MTH.  What would a good DCC setup for a moderate O gauge  basement layout cost?

Thanks  Bill

Lou1985 posted:

Seems like most of these comments are:

This is two hard

I don't like change

I can't figure out computers

I have a fear of new things

 

Guys read what the MTH rep said. For now the remote isn't going away. Even if it was your old remote will still work. Everyone keeps coming up with these situations that are obscure and only impact them. For everyone else it's fine. Change is fine. It happens. If there was no change we'd all still be lighting our homes with fire and salting our meat to preserve it. Adapt to change. It's much easier than fighting it. I deal with people at work every day who are resistant to change or adopting new technology and they turn to us for help, because they have been left behind. Society and economics don't bend to your whim. 

This is supposed to be a hobby. Something you do to relax. Chill out 

According to Andy, it sounds like this will be an improvement and so I will gladly embrace it when our remotes die.

I think you're right in that, no matter what the subject, this forum seems to attract a small group of people who only find joy in complaining and criticizing.  And sure enough they are chiming in here too. But I also think you might be missing the nuance that some of us are pointing out, which is that going to a smart phone might not be feasible, or might add difficulty in some cases.  As I said, the move is not an issue for me now.  But for folks entering the hobby with young children, they might not think it's a great idea to buy a $399 RTR RK set and then hand over their $950 Samsung 9S+ to a 5 year old in order to run the train.  

PJB posted:

Lou1985 posted:

Seems like most of these comments are:

This is two hard

I don't like change

I can't figure out computers

I have a fear of new things

 

Guys read what the MTH rep said. For now the remote isn't going away. Even if it was your old remote will still work. Everyone keeps coming up with these situations that are obscure and only impact them. For everyone else it's fine. Change is fine. It happens. If there was no change we'd all still be lighting our homes with fire and salting our meat to preserve it. Adapt to change. It's much easier than fighting it. I deal with people at work every day who are resistant to change or adopting new technology and they turn to us for help, because they have been left behind. Society and economics don't bend to your whim. 

This is supposed to be a hobby. Something you do to relax. Chill out 

According to Andy, it sounds like this will be an improvement and so I will gladly embrace it when our remotes die.

I think you're right in that, no matter what the subject, this forum seems to attract a small group of people who only find joy in complaining and criticizing.  And sure enough they are chiming in here too. But I also think you might be missing the nuance that some of us are pointing out, which is that going to a smart phone might not be feasible, or might add difficulty in some cases.  As I said, the move is not an issue for me now.  But for folks entering the hobby with young children, they might not think it's a great idea to buy a $399 RTR RK set and then hand over their $950 Samsung 9S+ to a 5 year old in order to run the train.  

Look guys, nobody is whining. I hate that when someone's opinion doesn't align with yours it automatically becomes a negative, in this case whining.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and this forum is the perfect platform to express those said opinions. If not here then where?

Fun is a relative thing, some of us find smoke units for example fun and others don't and as a result manufacturers have given us the ability to turn off a smoke unit in the event you don't want to use it, in other words the manufacturer is giving you options. Those of us that want to use a remote just simply want that an option if we so choose not to use Wi-Fi. It may be more fun for us to use a remote then to use Wi-Fi.

Please don't bash people for giving their input and reasons why we don't agree with the change, it's just an opinion and if you don't like it that is fine, Express the fact that you don't feel the same way but don't call the other people's opinions whining when all we are doing is simply expressing ourselves at no cost to you or anyone else.

If we can't express our views then how will the manufacture know if what they are doing is in line with the customers reviews, I am sure MTH will read all of our opinions and make a judgement on them.

I just visited my local hobby shop and the owner is very good friends with Mike and he along with myself agree that the remote should stay, we have our reasons and even if they are not necessarily cost-effective reasons we still have the right to express our opinions as to why we feel MTH should invest in a new remote if parts are becoming obsolete for the old one.

I don't mean to bash you guys either others have said the same thing but I just want to make sure everyone is aware that this is a forum and this forum is here to express our opinions, simply be respectful to others opinions that's all I'm asking.

Happy Model Railroading!

PJB posted:

Lou1985 posted:

Seems like most of these comments are:

This is two hard

I don't like change

I can't figure out computers

I have a fear of new things

 

Guys read what the MTH rep said. For now the remote isn't going away. Even if it was your old remote will still work. Everyone keeps coming up with these situations that are obscure and only impact them. For everyone else it's fine. Change is fine. It happens. If there was no change we'd all still be lighting our homes with fire and salting our meat to preserve it. Adapt to change. It's much easier than fighting it. I deal with people at work every day who are resistant to change or adopting new technology and they turn to us for help, because they have been left behind. Society and economics don't bend to your whim. 

This is supposed to be a hobby. Something you do to relax. Chill out 

According to Andy, it sounds like this will be an improvement and so I will gladly embrace it when our remotes die.

I think you're right in that, no matter what the subject, this forum seems to attract a small group of people who only find joy in complaining and criticizing.  And sure enough they are chiming in here too. But I also think you might be missing the nuance that some of us are pointing out, which is that going to a smart phone might not be feasible, or might add difficulty in some cases.  As I said, the move is not an issue for me now.  But for folks entering the hobby with young children, they might not think it's a great idea to buy a $399 RTR RK set and then hand over their $950 Samsung 9S+ to a 5 year old in order to run the train.  

If I'm not mistaken doesn't every new MTH starter set come with DCS Explorer instead of a traditional transformer? If so the end user is still required to have some kind of smart device to run trains. So then the issue becomes do you let a kid use your phone or buy a tablet for them.

I'm not trying to bash anyone. I'm just trying to get people to relax and analyze the facts. The remote isn't going away yet and if it does it can be dealt with later. You can run stuff either way. The remote won't be in the bundle. Instead you can buy a TIU and remote separately. This whole thread seemed to get a little out of hand with speculation. Fortunately a MTH representative stepped in and cleared everything up. 

Again everyone relax. It's a hobby. I'm pretty sure we all have things in our life to worry about.