Goodbye DCS Remote announced at York - Bummer

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

H1000 posted:

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

H1000 posted:

Easy, once someone pays the $25. the WIU features are unlocked physically in the unit itself, not the phone. Once that takes place any phone that connects to said WIU will have all the features unlocked. Its possible but as you can see, cuts the money flow.

Easier said than done... People much smarter than you and I most likely thought of this and moved on. I'll differ to GRJ's tag line: Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing.

$25 disposable tablet - connect to the internet for 5 minutes to download the app from a gmail account (specifically made for buying and downloading the app only) with the unlock. Disconnect from the internet and connect to the WIU directly which doesn't have internet access. That tablet will only see internet again for brief periods when the app needs to be updated.  I doubt your whole life will be completely hacked in those brief periods of time from a device that is connected to a home internet connection you can trust.

My $25 tablets do not have any info on them other than the one gmail account with the app unlocked. Nothing worth stealing or hacking, not even credit card info. They were bought for one purpose, running my train apps.

Look my friend, you asked me for a solution and I delivered. When I said "Easy" I meant it was easy to give you a response, not that implementing it would be easy. The WIU is nothing more than a WiFi hotspot. It even has an web interface, MTH can include a "License area" which when a purchase is made, fills in a code in the setting that unlocks the features, this isn't rocket science, literally just a license key or file. If it works for Windows, I think licensing can work for MTH.

If you think someone needs more than 5 min. to take your CC# you have been living under a rock my friend. Like I mentioned, your CC number is usually synced with your google account. Your $25 tablet is just the easy way into your account. I am not trying to turn anyone away from the $25 tablet, just showing you how exposing yourself in a digital world, even for 5 min. is enough exposure to possibly cause issues. Where is that security flaw in the TIU's remote?

You trusted google with your Credit Card Number!!! Yesh...

I went to Walmart an bought a prepaid Google app card, and applied to the account long before I even bought my cheapo tablets. Again what are they going to steal? A depleted google app balance of $0.01? Maybe they send spam to account I don't use... gmail accounts are disposable, make one (or hundreds) for disposable purposes and keep one secure for your real life.

I don't think MTH wanted to invent their own licensing scheme when Google & Apple both have ways of implementing the very feature they wanted. This is MTH, not Micro$oft and they don't have the technical (or most likely the financial) resources to implement a licensing feature in this fashion. Look at how long and how much MS has spent doing so and it still doesn't work perfectly.

I just choose to go the secure route and keep all of y stuff updated, to date my trust for Google has never failed me because I heed their security warnings. If the disconnected and outdated route works for you then hey, that is why they say there is an arse for every seat lmao!

I sell low voltage security equipment and some CCTV camera systems require licensing, I could have made a name drop like EXACQ or Digital Watchdog, they are no where near as large as Microsoft, and they manage to get it done, just not as cool of a name drop as Microsoft is but to the same point it doesn't mean you need to have this large staff managing this, PC's do that for us.

The scheme Google and Apple have and the route MTH currently has screw customers like myself that have multiple platforms. You seem to be my polar opposite on this subject but you have to admit at some point in time that MTH is more concerned about making money then satisfying their customers needs. If that is their philosophy, there is nothing wrong with it, put some pants on like a big boy and flat out say it, we don't care what our customers think we do what we need to survive. Then the customers can choose the paths they want to take, that is the great part about capitalism.

I didn't say it doesn't suck, but blame where blame is deserved. The mess described here wasn't made by MTH, it was made by Google & Apple.

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

H1000 posted:

Easy, once someone pays the $25. the WIU features are unlocked physically in the unit itself, not the phone. Once that takes place any phone that connects to said WIU will have all the features unlocked. Its possible but as you can see, cuts the money flow.

Easier said than done... People much smarter than you and I most likely thought of this and moved on. I'll differ to GRJ's tag line: Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing.

$25 disposable tablet - connect to the internet for 5 minutes to download the app from a gmail account (specifically made for buying and downloading the app only) with the unlock. Disconnect from the internet and connect to the WIU directly which doesn't have internet access. That tablet will only see internet again for brief periods when the app needs to be updated.  I doubt your whole life will be completely hacked in those brief periods of time from a device that is connected to a home internet connection you can trust.

My $25 tablets do not have any info on them other than the one gmail account with the app unlocked. Nothing worth stealing or hacking, not even credit card info. They were bought for one purpose, running my train apps.

Look my friend, you asked me for a solution and I delivered. When I said "Easy" I meant it was easy to give you a response, not that implementing it would be easy. The WIU is nothing more than a WiFi hotspot. It even has an web interface, MTH can include a "License area" which when a purchase is made, fills in a code in the setting that unlocks the features, this isn't rocket science, literally just a license key or file. If it works for Windows, I think licensing can work for MTH.

If you think someone needs more than 5 min. to take your CC# you have been living under a rock my friend. Like I mentioned, your CC number is usually synced with your google account. Your $25 tablet is just the easy way into your account. I am not trying to turn anyone away from the $25 tablet, just showing you how exposing yourself in a digital world, even for 5 min. is enough exposure to possibly cause issues. Where is that security flaw in the TIU's remote?

There isn't a security problem with a transformer handle either, but that doesn't mean someone has to forgo using command control to be 'safe'. If someone buys a 25 buck tablet, they can be pretty close to 100% safe as an entry device as a handheld remote is. I wouldn't recommend using a 25 buck tablet with an old version of Android and actively surfing the net, that is true, but the beauty of the WIU is it allows local wifi access, which de facto locks out the internet. When the tablet is connected to the WIU using "MTH" mode it is isolated from the internet, because the WIU does not connect to the internet itself, and that wifi MTH connection precludes the user on the tablet from connecting to an internet connected device (like the wifi router) while running the MTH app. So basically, if you buy a cheap 25 buck tablet and dedicate it to working with the MTH WIU set to "MTH" mode, it is as secure as a handheld remote. If the owner only uses internet wifi to connect to the Google play store (I am not mentioning IOS since you aren't likely to get an Apple device for that cheap, even used) and download the MTH app (and perhaps pay the upgrade fee), and from then on simply use it to run the MTH local connection, they will be 99.99% guaranteed not to be hacked, that brief window of interacting with the internet unless they access other sites is not very likely to get hacked (not to mention they likely wouldn't have anything on the device worth hacking given it is basically a mule slaved to the WIU). 

Sure, a mysterious hacker crawling around the bushes outside the user's house, could see the MTH wifi signal and try and 'hack into it' (really depends how MTH set it up, I don't know if MTH mode requires a password), in theory they might be able to connect to the MTH wifi, and somehow hack to any connected device like a tablet, but again, who would go through the effort to do that (and I don't know if you even can do that with a WIU Wifi connection, it likely is very, very limited network connection to a basic layer).  Most internet problems are caused by things like trojan horses gotten from downloading bad software, clicking on a bad link in e-mail,surfing infected sites or otherwise actively using the internet, not by mysterious hackers working backword to find your device, they through the users actions plant something on the phone that the user downloads that sends back information on the phone..and given that 25 buck tablet's only experience with the internet is going to be getting the MTH app downloaded and maybe paying for the extended features, and maybe updating the app from time to time, unless the MTH app itself gets hacked on the site (not likely, hackers generally put up an app they wrote to infect users, not hack someone else's app, not to mention I am sure that MTH at the very least makes sure the fingerprint of the MTH DCS app hasn't changed in the store).  I know enough about internet security to understand most of the risks, and downloading the MTH app (and perhaps updating it once in a while) is not a major risk. If it really freaks you out, get a copy of avg anti virus when you get the MTH app and run it before running the MTH app, and do the same thing any time you update the MTH app, get a new version of avg at the same time. 

FYI, if they are going to get credit card information it is more likely they will get it hacking into the back end servers at the service provider for MTH or even MTH itself.......

Someone mentioned LuCi, it doesn't allow general web access, it is there primarily (the web access) to allow updating the firmware, which is being done going directly to the MTH website via iP address and downloading new flash for the wifi module, you aren't downloading anything back to the remote device, the only download is going to be the the MTH device (the flash eprom). I am not even sure you can access the rest of the web via this interface. 

So - that idea I was having about "finally" getting the full DCS system (I have a Remote Commander) since I have several nice PS2, even PS3, locos just got put to bed without its supper.

I guess I'll struggle along on TMCC as long as I can, then all this stuff goes out the back door, anyway. Some of the fun just keeps getting sucked out of this hobby, bit by bit. 

H1000,

You are right, those providers came up with that method of doing business, I cant blame MTH for that.

I can blame them though for not giving the customer options. I can also blame them for knowing the Google/Apple way and not only jumping on board with it but also, not coming up with a better solution.

It's also not to late for them to fix it, but I'm sure they would rather just keep collecting $25.

I also forgot to mention that the app also has a cost to run. Ever time Google/Apple decide to come up with a new OS, guess who has to pay for an engineer to fix the app so that it can run on/conform to the new OS. So updates not only are required when MTH comes out with a new feature (the remote also would need an update in this case) but also when the OS provider decides they too want to add me features. (The remote does not).

bigkid posted:

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

H1000 posted:

Easy, once someone pays the $25. the WIU features are unlocked physically in the unit itself, not the phone. Once that takes place any phone that connects to said WIU will have all the features unlocked. Its possible but as you can see, cuts the money flow.

Easier said than done... People much smarter than you and I most likely thought of this and moved on. I'll differ to GRJ's tag line: Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing.

$25 disposable tablet - connect to the internet for 5 minutes to download the app from a gmail account (specifically made for buying and downloading the app only) with the unlock. Disconnect from the internet and connect to the WIU directly which doesn't have internet access. That tablet will only see internet again for brief periods when the app needs to be updated.  I doubt your whole life will be completely hacked in those brief periods of time from a device that is connected to a home internet connection you can trust.

My $25 tablets do not have any info on them other than the one gmail account with the app unlocked. Nothing worth stealing or hacking, not even credit card info. They were bought for one purpose, running my train apps.

Look my friend, you asked me for a solution and I delivered. When I said "Easy" I meant it was easy to give you a response, not that implementing it would be easy. The WIU is nothing more than a WiFi hotspot. It even has an web interface, MTH can include a "License area" which when a purchase is made, fills in a code in the setting that unlocks the features, this isn't rocket science, literally just a license key or file. If it works for Windows, I think licensing can work for MTH.

If you think someone needs more than 5 min. to take your CC# you have been living under a rock my friend. Like I mentioned, your CC number is usually synced with your google account. Your $25 tablet is just the easy way into your account. I am not trying to turn anyone away from the $25 tablet, just showing you how exposing yourself in a digital world, even for 5 min. is enough exposure to possibly cause issues. Where is that security flaw in the TIU's remote?

There isn't a security problem with a transformer handle either, but that doesn't mean someone has to forgo using command control to be 'safe'. If someone buys a 25 buck tablet, they can be pretty close to 100% safe as an entry device as a handheld remote is. I wouldn't recommend using a 25 buck tablet with an old version of Android and actively surfing the net, that is true, but the beauty of the WIU is it allows local wifi access, which de facto locks out the internet. When the tablet is connected to the WIU using "MTH" mode it is isolated from the internet, because the WIU does not connect to the internet itself, and that wifi MTH connection precludes the user on the tablet from connecting to an internet connected device (like the wifi router) while running the MTH app. So basically, if you buy a cheap 25 buck tablet and dedicate it to working with the MTH WIU set to "MTH" mode, it is as secure as a handheld remote. If the owner only uses internet wifi to connect to the Google play store (I am not mentioning IOS since you aren't likely to get an Apple device for that cheap, even used) and download the MTH app (and perhaps pay the upgrade fee), and from then on simply use it to run the MTH local connection, they will be 99.99% guaranteed not to be hacked, that brief window of interacting with the internet unless they access other sites is not very likely to get hacked (not to mention they likely wouldn't have anything on the device worth hacking given it is basically a mule slaved to the WIU). 

Sure, a mysterious hacker crawling around the bushes outside the user's house, could see the MTH wifi signal and try and 'hack into it' (really depends how MTH set it up, I don't know if MTH mode requires a password), in theory they might be able to connect to the MTH wifi, and somehow hack to any connected device like a tablet, but again, who would go through the effort to do that (and I don't know if you even can do that with a WIU Wifi connection, it likely is very, very limited network connection to a basic layer).  Most internet problems are caused by things like trojan horses gotten from downloading bad software, clicking on a bad link in e-mail,surfing infected sites or otherwise actively using the internet, not by mysterious hackers working backword to find your device, they through the users actions plant something on the phone that the user downloads that sends back information on the phone..and given that 25 buck tablet's only experience with the internet is going to be getting the MTH app downloaded and maybe paying for the extended features, and maybe updating the app from time to time, unless the MTH app itself gets hacked on the site (not likely, hackers generally put up an app they wrote to infect users, not hack someone else's app, not to mention I am sure that MTH at the very least makes sure the fingerprint of the MTH DCS app hasn't changed in the store).  I know enough about internet security to understand most of the risks, and downloading the MTH app (and perhaps updating it once in a while) is not a major risk. If it really freaks you out, get a copy of avg anti virus when you get the MTH app and run it before running the MTH app, and do the same thing any time you update the MTH app, get a new version of avg at the same time. 

You are right, the security risk is minimum. What I was trying to point out is that the security risk for the remote and handle as you mentioned is exactly 0.

I run my layout conventionally using MTH's original hand-held for the Z4000, which hasn't been made for years and years. When it dies I'll probably go to a hand-held throttle on the end of a long cord, unless someone comes up with an aftermarket alternative.

Has anyone else ever had the feeling that each system upgrade (hardware or software) is a ransom or extortion demand? "Buy our new controls or your trains will never run again".

I'm glad I've gotten rid of what little I had of the super computer stuff.

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

H1000,

You are right, those providers came up with that method of doing business, I cant blame MTH for that.

I can blame them though for not giving the customer options. I can also blame them for knowing the Google/Apple way and not only jumping on board with it but also, not coming up with a better solution.

It's also not to late for them to fix it, but I'm sure they would rather just keep collecting $25.

I also forgot to mention that the app also has a cost to run. Ever time Google/Apple decide to come up with a new OS, guess who has to pay for an engineer to fix the app so that it can run on/conform to the new OS. So updates not only are required when MTH comes out with a new feature (the remote also would need an update in this case) but also when the OS provider decides they too want to add me features. (The remote does not).

That isn't entirely true with OS. There are times when OS are updated that an older app can run into compatibility problems, but in general unless the application is really, really old, they will run fine on new versions of the OS,they engineer some level of backwards compatibility into the OS (they aren't IBM, that used to love to upgrade OS on their mainframes then force users who wanted to upgrade to buy all new software).  If the MTH app were to use some new feature in IOS or Android, they would release a new version of it to take advantage of it, but in most cases a new OS level allows an application written to an older standard to work just fine. Not to mention that if a user is using a 'locked down' 25 buck tablet, they aren't likely to update the OS. If MTH stops supporting that version of Android or IOS, then the user may need to get a new tablet if they can't upgrade the one they have to one that is supported, but usually vendors support several levels of OS with their apps. 

This just came to me, so according to most of you this change makes thing "cheaper". Old TIU and Remote control = $369.95 MSRP. The new TIU and WIU combo = $369.95 MSRP + $25 APP FEE + $25 Tablet == $420 MSRP. Now wait, isn't this supposed to be a more cost-effective solution? Did I miss something?

bigkid posted:

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

H1000,

You are right, those providers came up with that method of doing business, I cant blame MTH for that.

I can blame them though for not giving the customer options. I can also blame them for knowing the Google/Apple way and not only jumping on board with it but also, not coming up with a better solution.

It's also not to late for them to fix it, but I'm sure they would rather just keep collecting $25.

I also forgot to mention that the app also has a cost to run. Ever time Google/Apple decide to come up with a new OS, guess who has to pay for an engineer to fix the app so that it can run on/conform to the new OS. So updates not only are required when MTH comes out with a new feature (the remote also would need an update in this case) but also when the OS provider decides they too want to add me features. (The remote does not).

That isn't entirely true with OS. There are times when OS are updated that an older app can run into compatibility problems, but in general unless the application is really, really old, they will run fine on new versions of the OS,they engineer some level of backwards compatibility into the OS (they aren't IBM, that used to love to upgrade OS on their mainframes then force users who wanted to upgrade to buy all new software).  If the MTH app were to use some new feature in IOS or Android, they would release a new version of it to take advantage of it, but in most cases a new OS level allows an application written to an older standard to work just fine. Not to mention that if a user is using a 'locked down' 25 buck tablet, they aren't likely to update the OS. If MTH stops supporting that version of Android or IOS, then the user may need to get a new tablet if they can't upgrade the one they have to one that is supported, but usually vendors support several levels of OS with their apps. 

I'm sorry but you and I must have different phones, next time your phone updates immediately go into the app store and see how many apps are either pending update or within the next week will also roll out an update. compatibility is only one part of updates security patches are usually a very large part of why apps get updated. I see it all the time because my phone is part of Android beta program and every time my operating system updates shortly after all of my apps will one by one also update.

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

bigkid posted:

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

H1000 posted:

Easy, once someone pays the $25. the WIU features are unlocked physically in the unit itself, not the phone. Once that takes place any phone that connects to said WIU will have all the features unlocked. Its possible but as you can see, cuts the money flow.

Easier said than done... People much smarter than you and I most likely thought of this and moved on. I'll differ to GRJ's tag line: Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing.

$25 disposable tablet - connect to the internet for 5 minutes to download the app from a gmail account (specifically made for buying and downloading the app only) with the unlock. Disconnect from the internet and connect to the WIU directly which doesn't have internet access. That tablet will only see internet again for brief periods when the app needs to be updated.  I doubt your whole life will be completely hacked in those brief periods of time from a device that is connected to a home internet connection you can trust.

My $25 tablets do not have any info on them other than the one gmail account with the app unlocked. Nothing worth stealing or hacking, not even credit card info. They were bought for one purpose, running my train apps.

Look my friend, you asked me for a solution and I delivered. When I said "Easy" I meant it was easy to give you a response, not that implementing it would be easy. The WIU is nothing more than a WiFi hotspot. It even has an web interface, MTH can include a "License area" which when a purchase is made, fills in a code in the setting that unlocks the features, this isn't rocket science, literally just a license key or file. If it works for Windows, I think licensing can work for MTH.

If you think someone needs more than 5 min. to take your CC# you have been living under a rock my friend. Like I mentioned, your CC number is usually synced with your google account. Your $25 tablet is just the easy way into your account. I am not trying to turn anyone away from the $25 tablet, just showing you how exposing yourself in a digital world, even for 5 min. is enough exposure to possibly cause issues. Where is that security flaw in the TIU's remote?

There isn't a security problem with a transformer handle either, but that doesn't mean someone has to forgo using command control to be 'safe'. If someone buys a 25 buck tablet, they can be pretty close to 100% safe as an entry device as a handheld remote is. I wouldn't recommend using a 25 buck tablet with an old version of Android and actively surfing the net, that is true, but the beauty of the WIU is it allows local wifi access, which de facto locks out the internet. When the tablet is connected to the WIU using "MTH" mode it is isolated from the internet, because the WIU does not connect to the internet itself, and that wifi MTH connection precludes the user on the tablet from connecting to an internet connected device (like the wifi router) while running the MTH app. So basically, if you buy a cheap 25 buck tablet and dedicate it to working with the MTH WIU set to "MTH" mode, it is as secure as a handheld remote. If the owner only uses internet wifi to connect to the Google play store (I am not mentioning IOS since you aren't likely to get an Apple device for that cheap, even used) and download the MTH app (and perhaps pay the upgrade fee), and from then on simply use it to run the MTH local connection, they will be 99.99% guaranteed not to be hacked, that brief window of interacting with the internet unless they access other sites is not very likely to get hacked (not to mention they likely wouldn't have anything on the device worth hacking given it is basically a mule slaved to the WIU). 

Sure, a mysterious hacker crawling around the bushes outside the user's house, could see the MTH wifi signal and try and 'hack into it' (really depends how MTH set it up, I don't know if MTH mode requires a password), in theory they might be able to connect to the MTH wifi, and somehow hack to any connected device like a tablet, but again, who would go through the effort to do that (and I don't know if you even can do that with a WIU Wifi connection, it likely is very, very limited network connection to a basic layer).  Most internet problems are caused by things like trojan horses gotten from downloading bad software, clicking on a bad link in e-mail,surfing infected sites or otherwise actively using the internet, not by mysterious hackers working backword to find your device, they through the users actions plant something on the phone that the user downloads that sends back information on the phone..and given that 25 buck tablet's only experience with the internet is going to be getting the MTH app downloaded and maybe paying for the extended features, and maybe updating the app from time to time, unless the MTH app itself gets hacked on the site (not likely, hackers generally put up an app they wrote to infect users, not hack someone else's app, not to mention I am sure that MTH at the very least makes sure the fingerprint of the MTH DCS app hasn't changed in the store).  I know enough about internet security to understand most of the risks, and downloading the MTH app (and perhaps updating it once in a while) is not a major risk. If it really freaks you out, get a copy of avg anti virus when you get the MTH app and run it before running the MTH app, and do the same thing any time you update the MTH app, get a new version of avg at the same time. 

You are right, the security risk is minimum. What I was trying to point out is that the security risk for the remote and handle as you mentioned is exactly 0.

So is the handle on a transformer,  if we limited our choices to where risk is exactly zero, and didn't even consider risks that were let's say 99%, 98% risk free, or even higher, we wouldn't do much in life *shrug*. The risk of using an old tablet to run MTH directly is tiny, and I am speaking as someone who deals with internet security, not as a prime focus, but well aware of risks. Using internet security as a reason not to use a cheap tablet as a control for the WIU is like not going to play golf because a freak lightening storm might come up or not going fishing because you might fall in and drown or other 'freak' occurances, heck there is a lot more risk in driving a car and dying in an auto accident then the risk with this *shrug*. 

Not saying that someone should like a handheld app, I can understand why people like their remote control, just saying that the cost of a cheap tablet used simply to download the MTH app, pay the fee to get extended features, will be less than a remote and only marginally riskier then using a DCS remote. The only real risk of a cheap laptop is if you buy it from dubious sources and they have planted malware on it, but that can be worked around by running a decent anti virus program on it when you buy it, before actually doing anything with it. 

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

This just came to me, so according to most of you this change makes thing "cheaper". Old TIU and Remote control = $369.95 MSRP. The new TIU and WIU combo = $369.95 MSRP + $25 APP FEE + $25 Tablet == $420 MSRP. Now wait, isn't this supposed to be a more cost-effective solution? Did I miss something?

With a handheld you can control your trains with one hand. It has tactile buttons and wheels so you don't have to shift your eyes from your train to your touch screen.

Just as phones can cause distracted driving it can be a distraction from running trains in particular in a prototype fashion like switching moves.

Pete

bigkid posted:

The person who dies with the best toys dies a happy person

Actually, the person who dies with the best toys... is still dead!

Hiawatha98 posted:

If MTH made a DCS Wi-Fi app for Microsoft Windows, it would be pretty easy for those among us who prefer a tactile controller to program inputs for controlling our trains with a wireless keyboard. (or a myriad of other PC controller hardware) This way MTH still wouldn't have to build the hardware as well as the software.

Perfect solution!  I've thought about this and it would allow lots of possibilities for a physical controller!

I too, prefer the remote to the app (I have both and also a WIU). It's not my decision, but I see NO reason that MTH can not continue making the remotes? There is no added investment required, they have already invested in it's development years ago. The only cost would be the costs for production of the new batches as needed. I have also heard that the remotes can not be further expanded to add additional features, that's fine too, leave them as they are now, no changes.

FWIW, I would suggest they continue to make the current remotes and the apps. Leave the remotes as they are and continue to develop and add features to the apps. When folks start finding the apps are finally superior to the remotes they may want to stop using the remotes and switch to the apps. I think all would be happy with that idea, at least I think I would. Don't force something on us when we can still have a choice. Make us all want to switch and then discontinue the remote!  I am not very good at explaining this, but I hope you all get the idea here.

And right now I think there is still a thing or two you can only do with the remote and can't do with the app. Unless the app has been updated to add the missing features that only the remote had? I've had the app & WIU since they came out, but I haven't used the app all that much. After each try with app every so often I find that I miss my remote and go back to using it. 

Also, I am not an app programmer, but as far as iphone and android apps, don't these have to be written differently to work on each different platform (as in Windows and Mac, Mac and Linux, etc.)? I can see added costs here as you are basically maintaining two apps instead of one, if that is actually the case.

For parts, if correct on the minimums, I think a minimum order of 500 thumb wheels would sell out pretty quickly as well. I would be in for a few myself, probably a half dozen or so. I don't think they would get stuck with any left over after a month or so?

bigkid posted:

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

bigkid posted:

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

H1000 posted:

Easy, once someone pays the $25. the WIU features are unlocked physically in the unit itself, not the phone. Once that takes place any phone that connects to said WIU will have all the features unlocked. Its possible but as you can see, cuts the money flow.

Easier said than done... People much smarter than you and I most likely thought of this and moved on. I'll differ to GRJ's tag line: Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing.

$25 disposable tablet - connect to the internet for 5 minutes to download the app from a gmail account (specifically made for buying and downloading the app only) with the unlock. Disconnect from the internet and connect to the WIU directly which doesn't have internet access. That tablet will only see internet again for brief periods when the app needs to be updated.  I doubt your whole life will be completely hacked in those brief periods of time from a device that is connected to a home internet connection you can trust.

My $25 tablets do not have any info on them other than the one gmail account with the app unlocked. Nothing worth stealing or hacking, not even credit card info. They were bought for one purpose, running my train apps.

Look my friend, you asked me for a solution and I delivered. When I said "Easy" I meant it was easy to give you a response, not that implementing it would be easy. The WIU is nothing more than a WiFi hotspot. It even has an web interface, MTH can include a "License area" which when a purchase is made, fills in a code in the setting that unlocks the features, this isn't rocket science, literally just a license key or file. If it works for Windows, I think licensing can work for MTH.

If you think someone needs more than 5 min. to take your CC# you have been living under a rock my friend. Like I mentioned, your CC number is usually synced with your google account. Your $25 tablet is just the easy way into your account. I am not trying to turn anyone away from the $25 tablet, just showing you how exposing yourself in a digital world, even for 5 min. is enough exposure to possibly cause issues. Where is that security flaw in the TIU's remote?

There isn't a security problem with a transformer handle either, but that doesn't mean someone has to forgo using command control to be 'safe'. If someone buys a 25 buck tablet, they can be pretty close to 100% safe as an entry device as a handheld remote is. I wouldn't recommend using a 25 buck tablet with an old version of Android and actively surfing the net, that is true, but the beauty of the WIU is it allows local wifi access, which de facto locks out the internet. When the tablet is connected to the WIU using "MTH" mode it is isolated from the internet, because the WIU does not connect to the internet itself, and that wifi MTH connection precludes the user on the tablet from connecting to an internet connected device (like the wifi router) while running the MTH app. So basically, if you buy a cheap 25 buck tablet and dedicate it to working with the MTH WIU set to "MTH" mode, it is as secure as a handheld remote. If the owner only uses internet wifi to connect to the Google play store (I am not mentioning IOS since you aren't likely to get an Apple device for that cheap, even used) and download the MTH app (and perhaps pay the upgrade fee), and from then on simply use it to run the MTH local connection, they will be 99.99% guaranteed not to be hacked, that brief window of interacting with the internet unless they access other sites is not very likely to get hacked (not to mention they likely wouldn't have anything on the device worth hacking given it is basically a mule slaved to the WIU). 

Sure, a mysterious hacker crawling around the bushes outside the user's house, could see the MTH wifi signal and try and 'hack into it' (really depends how MTH set it up, I don't know if MTH mode requires a password), in theory they might be able to connect to the MTH wifi, and somehow hack to any connected device like a tablet, but again, who would go through the effort to do that (and I don't know if you even can do that with a WIU Wifi connection, it likely is very, very limited network connection to a basic layer).  Most internet problems are caused by things like trojan horses gotten from downloading bad software, clicking on a bad link in e-mail,surfing infected sites or otherwise actively using the internet, not by mysterious hackers working backword to find your device, they through the users actions plant something on the phone that the user downloads that sends back information on the phone..and given that 25 buck tablet's only experience with the internet is going to be getting the MTH app downloaded and maybe paying for the extended features, and maybe updating the app from time to time, unless the MTH app itself gets hacked on the site (not likely, hackers generally put up an app they wrote to infect users, not hack someone else's app, not to mention I am sure that MTH at the very least makes sure the fingerprint of the MTH DCS app hasn't changed in the store).  I know enough about internet security to understand most of the risks, and downloading the MTH app (and perhaps updating it once in a while) is not a major risk. If it really freaks you out, get a copy of avg anti virus when you get the MTH app and run it before running the MTH app, and do the same thing any time you update the MTH app, get a new version of avg at the same time. 

You are right, the security risk is minimum. What I was trying to point out is that the security risk for the remote and handle as you mentioned is exactly 0.

So is the handle on a transformer,  if we limited our choices to where risk is exactly zero, and didn't even consider risks that were let's say 99%, 98% risk free, or even higher, we wouldn't do much in life *shrug*. The risk of using an old tablet to run MTH directly is tiny, and I am speaking as someone who deals with internet security, not as a prime focus, but well aware of risks. Using internet security as a reason not to use a cheap tablet as a control for the WIU is like not going to play golf because a freak lightening storm might come up or not going fishing because you might fall in and drown or other 'freak' occurances, heck there is a lot more risk in driving a car and dying in an auto accident then the risk with this *shrug*. 

Not saying that someone should like a handheld app, I can understand why people like their remote control, just saying that the cost of a cheap tablet used simply to download the MTH app, pay the fee to get extended features, will be less than a remote and only marginally riskier then using a DCS remote. The only real risk of a cheap laptop is if you buy it from dubious sources and they have planted malware on it, but that can be worked around by running a decent anti virus program on it when you buy it, before actually doing anything with it. 

Again, you are correct, minimal risk vs. no risk. I think we are on the same page.

eddiem posted:

Hiawatha98 posted:

If MTH made a DCS Wi-Fi app for Microsoft Windows, it would be pretty easy for those among us who prefer a tactile controller to program inputs for controlling our trains with a wireless keyboard. (or a myriad of other PC controller hardware) This way MTH still wouldn't have to build the hardware as well as the software.

Perfect solution!  I've thought about this and it would allow lots of possibilities for a physical controller!

Or a WiFi remote with all the physical buttons. The remote will take to the wiu just like a phone would. I know a cool remote came out for dcc that operates like a prototypical engine. Maybe a third party can come up with it. Just need to see what data goes from the phone to the wiu. If it can be replicated, it can be possible.

I don't know why folks forget about this project. You can run your mth engines with an pc and a bit of hardware as explained on the site.

http://www.silogic.com/trains/RTC_Running.html

I made the panstamp item and it works with the software.  The info is all there for intrepid....

Are you saying the next DCS update will make the remote useless?

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

bigkid posted:

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

H1000,

You are right, those providers came up with that method of doing business, I cant blame MTH for that.

I can blame them though for not giving the customer options. I can also blame them for knowing the Google/Apple way and not only jumping on board with it but also, not coming up with a better solution.

It's also not to late for them to fix it, but I'm sure they would rather just keep collecting $25.

I also forgot to mention that the app also has a cost to run. Ever time Google/Apple decide to come up with a new OS, guess who has to pay for an engineer to fix the app so that it can run on/conform to the new OS. So updates not only are required when MTH comes out with a new feature (the remote also would need an update in this case) but also when the OS provider decides they too want to add me features. (The remote does not).

That isn't entirely true with OS. There are times when OS are updated that an older app can run into compatibility problems, but in general unless the application is really, really old, they will run fine on new versions of the OS,they engineer some level of backwards compatibility into the OS (they aren't IBM, that used to love to upgrade OS on their mainframes then force users who wanted to upgrade to buy all new software).  If the MTH app were to use some new feature in IOS or Android, they would release a new version of it to take advantage of it, but in most cases a new OS level allows an application written to an older standard to work just fine. Not to mention that if a user is using a 'locked down' 25 buck tablet, they aren't likely to update the OS. If MTH stops supporting that version of Android or IOS, then the user may need to get a new tablet if they can't upgrade the one they have to one that is supported, but usually vendors support several levels of OS with their apps. 

I'm sorry but you and I must have different phones, next time your phone updates immediately go into the app store and see how many apps are either pending update or within the next week will also roll out an update. compatibility is only one part of updates security patches are usually a very large part of why apps get updated. I see it all the time because my phone is part of Android beta program and every time my operating system updates shortly after all of my apps will one by one also update.

But we aren't talking about a phone or tablet that will be connected to the internet, we are talking a phone that will be isolated and likely will not update anything, it can't unless attached to the internet.  Yes, app updates often are about security, as are OS updates, but the other thing to keep in mind is when an app updates after a new OS is rolled out,it is that they want to take advantage of new features in that OS, that is more likely the reason for an update.  Long before, for example, IOS rolled out IOS 10 or 11, developers for various apps were working with it, both to look for compatibility issues, but also to take advantage of new features in the  OS they can use. We have mobile apps associated with the systems I am responsible for (I do software testing for a living) and once the OS is available to developers our teams start evaluating them to see if there is anything in it that would be a neat thing for the apps, what happens with your phone is that the OS updates, then the app vendors release their apps that can take advantage of it (into beta or full mode), and users get notified unless the app is set up to auto update. In our hypothetical cheap laptop scenario, they can go on running their current OS and the MTH app, and only would have to do something if MTH released a new version that they wanted some new feature on it, at which time they either could update the app, or if the current OS was not compatible with the new MTH version, look into updating the OS or maybe at that point get a new cheap tablet that can run it that has an OS the new version supports. 

bigkid posted:

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

bigkid posted:

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

H1000,

You are right, those providers came up with that method of doing business, I cant blame MTH for that.

I can blame them though for not giving the customer options. I can also blame them for knowing the Google/Apple way and not only jumping on board with it but also, not coming up with a better solution.

It's also not to late for them to fix it, but I'm sure they would rather just keep collecting $25.

I also forgot to mention that the app also has a cost to run. Ever time Google/Apple decide to come up with a new OS, guess who has to pay for an engineer to fix the app so that it can run on/conform to the new OS. So updates not only are required when MTH comes out with a new feature (the remote also would need an update in this case) but also when the OS provider decides they too want to add me features. (The remote does not).

That isn't entirely true with OS. There are times when OS are updated that an older app can run into compatibility problems, but in general unless the application is really, really old, they will run fine on new versions of the OS,they engineer some level of backwards compatibility into the OS (they aren't IBM, that used to love to upgrade OS on their mainframes then force users who wanted to upgrade to buy all new software).  If the MTH app were to use some new feature in IOS or Android, they would release a new version of it to take advantage of it, but in most cases a new OS level allows an application written to an older standard to work just fine. Not to mention that if a user is using a 'locked down' 25 buck tablet, they aren't likely to update the OS. If MTH stops supporting that version of Android or IOS, then the user may need to get a new tablet if they can't upgrade the one they have to one that is supported, but usually vendors support several levels of OS with their apps. 

I'm sorry but you and I must have different phones, next time your phone updates immediately go into the app store and see how many apps are either pending update or within the next week will also roll out an update. compatibility is only one part of updates security patches are usually a very large part of why apps get updated. I see it all the time because my phone is part of Android beta program and every time my operating system updates shortly after all of my apps will one by one also update.

But we aren't talking about a phone or tablet that will be connected to the internet, we are talking a phone that will be isolated and likely will not update anything, it can't unless attached to the internet.  Yes, app updates often are about security, as are OS updates, but the other thing to keep in mind is when an app updates after a new OS is rolled out,it is that they want to take advantage of new features in that OS, that is more likely the reason for an update.  Long before, for example, IOS rolled out IOS 10 or 11, developers for various apps were working with it, both to look for compatibility issues, but also to take advantage of new features in the  OS they can use. We have mobile apps associated with the systems I am responsible for (I do software testing for a living) and once the OS is available to developers our teams start evaluating them to see if there is anything in it that would be a neat thing for the apps, what happens with your phone is that the OS updates, then the app vendors release their apps that can take advantage of it (into beta or full mode), and users get notified unless the app is set up to auto update. In our hypothetical cheap laptop scenario, they can go on running their current OS and the MTH app, and only would have to do something if MTH released a new version that they wanted some new feature on it, at which time they either could update the app, or if the current OS was not compatible with the new MTH version, look into updating the OS or maybe at that point get a new cheap tablet that can run it that has an OS the new version supports. 

Dude are you serious? Even if you decide to build a bomb proof shelter to run your trains and never see the outside world again MTH will have to pay a person to update their app on the App Store not on your physical device but for everyone else to use. I said that because they are saying that this change is for cost-effectiveness and since the app continuously needs to be updated even if you don't want it to be it still needs to be done that incurs a charge meaning it is not more cost-effective in some of our eyes.

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

eddiem posted:

Hiawatha98 posted:

If MTH made a DCS Wi-Fi app for Microsoft Windows, it would be pretty easy for those among us who prefer a tactile controller to program inputs for controlling our trains with a wireless keyboard. (or a myriad of other PC controller hardware) This way MTH still wouldn't have to build the hardware as well as the software.

Perfect solution!  I've thought about this and it would allow lots of possibilities for a physical controller!

Or a WiFi remote with all the physical buttons. The remote will take to the wiu just like a phone would. I know a cool remote came out for dcc that operates like a prototypical engine. Maybe a third party can come up with it. Just need to see what data goes from the phone to the wiu. If it can be replicated, it can be possible.

In theory that is possible, the wifi remote would need to imitate the function calls the app makes, so if you turn a scroll wheel, it sends commands to the WIU to increase/decrease speed. I am not so certain this would be possible, though, the MTH DCS commands the app sends are still proprietary and could end up with someone getting a cease and desist order from MTH attorneys, sadly. DCC is an open project, DCS is not. 

Severn posted:

I don't know why folks forget about this project. You can run your mth engines with an pc and a bit of hardware as explained on the site.

http://www.silogic.com/trains/RTC_Running.html

I made the panstamp item and it works with the software.  The info is all there for intrepid....

Agreed, with Mark's system it is easy to implement DCS control with a PC or Arduino.

It might not be too difficult to write some code that mapped a Raildriver to DCS control.  Biggest hurdle would be deciding how to map the throttle and brake levers to DCS actions.

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

This just came to me, so according to most of you this change makes thing "cheaper". Old TIU and Remote control = $369.95 MSRP. The new TIU and WIU combo = $369.95 MSRP + $25 APP FEE + $25 Tablet == $420 MSRP. Now wait, isn't this supposed to be a more cost-effective solution? Did I miss something?

I think the cheaper claim primarily applies to MTH not needing to invest in new hardware design to create a new remote with more current parts vs. the ones it was designed with 16+ years ago that are undoubtedly approaching end of life, if not already past it.

rtr12 posted:

I too, prefer the remote to the app (I have both and also a WIU). It's not my decision, but I see NO reason that MTH can not continue making the remotes? There is no added investment required, they have already invested in it's development years ago. The only cost would be the costs for production of the new batches as needed. I have also heard that the remotes can not be further expanded to add additional features, that's fine too, leave them as they are now, no changes.

Parts obsolescence? If Motorola (random example) stops making widget XYZ, and MTH can't just buy more of part XYZ, they then need to redesign with something that can reasonably replace XYZ (including other parts dependent on it, or that it depends on, such as parts ABC or DEF).  The "ripple effect" of even one part not being available anymore could be significant.

By definition, changing any of the internal parts means a physical re-design of the hardware to some extent.

Again, I'm in the remote camp.  I just think I "get" where MTH is coming from.

-Dave

Professor Chaos posted:

Severn posted:

I don't know why folks forget about this project. You can run your mth engines with an pc and a bit of hardware as explained on the site.

http://www.silogic.com/trains/RTC_Running.html

I made the panstamp item and it works with the software.  The info is all there for intrepid....

Agreed, with Mark's system it is easy to implement DCS control with a PC or Arduino.

It might not be too difficult to write some code that mapped a Raildriver to DCS control.  Biggest hurdle would be deciding how to map the throttle and brake levers to DCS actions.

Is that a handheld? (running for cover )

-Dave

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

bigkid posted:

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

bigkid posted:

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

H1000,

You are right, those providers came up with that method of doing business, I cant blame MTH for that.

I can blame them though for not giving the customer options. I can also blame them for knowing the Google/Apple way and not only jumping on board with it but also, not coming up with a better solution.

It's also not to late for them to fix it, but I'm sure they would rather just keep collecting $25.

I also forgot to mention that the app also has a cost to run. Ever time Google/Apple decide to come up with a new OS, guess who has to pay for an engineer to fix the app so that it can run on/conform to the new OS. So updates not only are required when MTH comes out with a new feature (the remote also would need an update in this case) but also when the OS provider decides they too want to add me features. (The remote does not).

That isn't entirely true with OS. There are times when OS are updated that an older app can run into compatibility problems, but in general unless the application is really, really old, they will run fine on new versions of the OS,they engineer some level of backwards compatibility into the OS (they aren't IBM, that used to love to upgrade OS on their mainframes then force users who wanted to upgrade to buy all new software).  If the MTH app were to use some new feature in IOS or Android, they would release a new version of it to take advantage of it, but in most cases a new OS level allows an application written to an older standard to work just fine. Not to mention that if a user is using a 'locked down' 25 buck tablet, they aren't likely to update the OS. If MTH stops supporting that version of Android or IOS, then the user may need to get a new tablet if they can't upgrade the one they have to one that is supported, but usually vendors support several levels of OS with their apps. 

I'm sorry but you and I must have different phones, next time your phone updates immediately go into the app store and see how many apps are either pending update or within the next week will also roll out an update. compatibility is only one part of updates security patches are usually a very large part of why apps get updated. I see it all the time because my phone is part of Android beta program and every time my operating system updates shortly after all of my apps will one by one also update.

But we aren't talking about a phone or tablet that will be connected to the internet, we are talking a phone that will be isolated and likely will not update anything, it can't unless attached to the internet.  Yes, app updates often are about security, as are OS updates, but the other thing to keep in mind is when an app updates after a new OS is rolled out,it is that they want to take advantage of new features in that OS, that is more likely the reason for an update.  Long before, for example, IOS rolled out IOS 10 or 11, developers for various apps were working with it, both to look for compatibility issues, but also to take advantage of new features in the  OS they can use. We have mobile apps associated with the systems I am responsible for (I do software testing for a living) and once the OS is available to developers our teams start evaluating them to see if there is anything in it that would be a neat thing for the apps, what happens with your phone is that the OS updates, then the app vendors release their apps that can take advantage of it (into beta or full mode), and users get notified unless the app is set up to auto update. In our hypothetical cheap laptop scenario, they can go on running their current OS and the MTH app, and only would have to do something if MTH released a new version that they wanted some new feature on it, at which time they either could update the app, or if the current OS was not compatible with the new MTH version, look into updating the OS or maybe at that point get a new cheap tablet that can run it that has an OS the new version supports. 

Dude are you serious? Even if you decide to build a bomb proof shelter to run your trains and never see the outside world again MTH will have to pay a person to update their app on the App Store not on your physical device but for everyone else to use. I said that because they are saying that this change is for cost-effectiveness and since the app continuously needs to be updated even if you don't want it to be it still needs to be done that incurs a charge meaning it is not more cost-effective in some of our eyes.

I don't get you, do you mean cost effective to MTH or do you mean cost effective to the user? I was talking from the user perspective and safety, that a 25 buck tablet and whatever the MTH app fees are is cost effective compared to the remote. Users don't care about the cost of updating apps the vendor is creating, it is the vendor that has to pay development time  and the time to test it and yes, support the new app if problems arise from the field, but that is the cost of any product. It is true that the remote itself hasn't changed much, as far as I know you don't update it much, but then again, each remote they make has a cost associated with it, there is the cost of materials, there is the cost of shipping it from china, there is the cost of labor of building it, there is the cost of testing it (hopefully here as well), while the cost/unit based on the initial tooling costs and the like is long gone and there is little to any cost in terms of updating the remote, there is still a cost to a physical remote.

Whatever the cost of the app is and the cost of developing the WIU (I don't know if the app uses the same codes as the command remote did, if the app has features the remote doesn't then likely the app is a superset of the commands the remote uses, the cost of the WIU itself is  likely no different than the old unit was if I am right), one thing I do know, selling the remote and supporting DCS wifi app is a larger cost than just the DCS wifi alone is going to be, and given the relatively stable nature of DCS features set I would hazard a guess that they don't have to spend all that much on the DCS app if they update only occassionally (given that the MTH app itself doesn't interact with the internet, security isn't as big a concern as an app that interacts with the internet, has people's personal data, etc). More importantly, if MTH wants to add new features users can use, a remote upgrade requires an entirely new remote, whereas with an app you write the new code and put it on the store involved, no hardware changes to add a button or the like, no new design of the remote *shrug*.  Arguing that the app isn't cost effective to MTH, if that is the argument,makes no sense, if it weren't cost effective, if the cost of developing and maintaining it was more than any gains, they wouldn't do it. Want an analogy? When Lionel went from TMCC to Legacy, they had to redo everything, including the legacy remote. If wifi app had been possible at the time, they still would have had a massive investment to do this, they needed to develop totally new commands above the ones TMCC supported, create the firmware that supported it, then create the engines and such that could use the new commands, but they would have had a lot less cost developing a software based app controller than the engineering and manufacturing cost of making the remote, and it is a lot easier to give users an app update when problems happen then giving them a new remote if they have problems with it, and also allows adding new features to the app, something you can't do on a remote easily or cheaply. 

Without a remote I will definitely not be getting DCS.  But since PS-3 locomotives are DCC, then I'll just control them that way.

Mike was at my LHS a year or so ago and I went down.  He was hyping the app and WiFi.  Went to try to put it on my phone, and couldn't, my phone was too old.  It was an iPhone, but not the latest and greatest, and the app needed a newer version of iOS then I had.  So with a puzzled look (Like "Why would someone not have the latest and greatest?"  Sorry, not all of us are made of money.) he handed me and my son his phone to try the app with.  I spent enough time with it to know that I'd never like running my trains that way.  And my son kept pushing the physical button on the phone, zero interest in the touch screen, so that told me the app was a no go for him to.  Kids love real buttons.

From  newbe perspective to O Gauge, American Flyer when I was a kid, I have the Lionchief remotes, I find they work great and like them better than the app.  Easy for the grandkid to control the trains, though he can also use the app.  Even on carpet central I find the remote easier to use, don't have to look at it. But I will be forcing myself into a DCS explorer and the app. I just have to get an engine with charging lights. Lionel has no low cost lion chief equivalent that I know about. Both companies would be smart to make RTR sets with engines that have charging lights.  

The charging lights are just neat.

Oldmike

Daniel-

Face it, most people in general these days are going to run the DCS app on a smart device they already have, likely something they use for other reasons, the old curmudgeons without smart devices are a minority in the real world (in this world, well, that is another story). So the extra cost of going with the WIU is the 25 buck fee for the extended features (if people want them), since they would have the smart device already. Now compare the lifetime cost. If the remote breaks, chances are it can't be fixed, so you would need to get a new remote, at 100 or 150 a pop. If MTH kept the remote and decided to add new features to it, you would need to buy a new remote to get those features, at 150 bucks, whereas if you had the app running on your smartphone and the phone breaks, you would get it repaired (can get it repaired) or get a new phone, no additional cost. And if MTH adds new features to the app, you simply have to download it, likely for free. You can't just look at the initial cost, or the cost/benefit, you also have to look down the road at the costs, and I just made the argument that someone using a smart device they already have, paying the 25 buck fee or not, is likely to be more cost effective than a physical remote over the lifetime of use *shrug*....and the app could end up being a lot more fun, given the limitations of the remote. I suspect for MTH the cost factor was a no brainer, software is a lot easier to update and support than doing a hardware implementation like a remote. 

sinclair posted:

Without a remote I will definitely not be getting DCS.  But since PS-3 locomotives are DCC, then I'll just control them that way.

Mike was at my LHS a year or so ago and I went down.  He was hyping the app and WiFi.  Went to try to put it on my phone, and couldn't, my phone was too old.  It was an iPhone, but not the latest and greatest, and the app needed a newer version of iOS then I had.  So with a puzzled look (Like "Why would someone not have the latest and greatest?"  Sorry, not all of us are made of money.) he handed me and my son his phone to try the app with.  I spent enough time with it to know that I'd never like running my trains that way.  And my son kept pushing the physical button on the phone, zero interest in the touch screen, so that told me the app was a no go for him to.  Kids love real buttons.

Unless your apple phone was really old, IOS upgrades don't cost anything. There does come a time when older phones don't have the resources to run a newer version of the OS, but there are plenty of apple devices out there not of the latest generation that run IOS 11 and will run IOS 12 when it is fully released (if it already hasn't been).  Not questioning if you run an older phone or why, I understand what you are saying, but unless you need new hardware OS upgrades don't cost anything. 

Dave45681 posted:

rtr12 posted:

I too, prefer the remote to the app (I have both and also a WIU). It's not my decision, but I see NO reason that MTH can not continue making the remotes? There is no added investment required, they have already invested in it's development years ago. The only cost would be the costs for production of the new batches as needed. I have also heard that the remotes can not be further expanded to add additional features, that's fine too, leave them as they are now, no changes.

Parts obsolescence? If Motorola (random example) stops making widget XYZ, and MTH can't just buy more of part XYZ, they then need to redesign with something that can reasonably replace XYZ (including other parts dependent on it, or that it depends on, such as parts ABC or DEF).  The "ripple effect" of even one part not being available anymore could be significant.

By definition, changing any of the internal parts means a physical re-design of the hardware to some extent.

Again, I'm in the remote camp.  I just think I "get" where MTH is coming from.

-Dave 

I do agree with the parts obsolescence and I do see MTH's point as well. And as you say depending on the part some changes may be needed which could be minor or major. I could certainly see major changes being a big problem for the remotes. However, they were going to discontinue them a while back and decided not to, for whatever reason and just had more made. I imagine just like the previous batches? I don't recall hearing about discontinued parts when that happened, but I could have very well missed that or it was never made public? 

All I was asking for is MTH continuing to make the remotes as long as they can do so without any major development or revision expenses to them. Then they let the app features continue to develop and overtake the features of the remotes. Maybe folks will then want to switch to the app for the added features. It would just be a bit less painful having to switch over that way, IMO.  

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

This just came to me, so according to most of you this change makes thing "cheaper". Old TIU and Remote control = $369.95 MSRP. The new TIU and WIU combo = $369.95 MSRP + $25 APP FEE + $25 Tablet == $420 MSRP. Now wait, isn't this supposed to be a more cost-effective solution? Did I miss something?

369.95 Old TIU and Remote control + 169.95 DCS Remote 2 + 169.95 DCS remote 3 + 169.96 DCS remote 4 + 169.95 Replacemnt for dropped DCS remote 2 = $1049.75

369.95 TIU & WIU combo + $5 app fee (don't need $25 upgrade if you don't have an AIU) + $25 Tablet 1 +$25 Tablet 2 + $25 Tablet 3 + $25 Tablet 4 + $25 replacement for dropped tablet 2 = $499.95

See how that works?

FYI the "cheap" Android tablets don't perform very well...plan on spending around $100. On another post MTH R&D themselves posted "buy an IPad" because of Android issues.

Personally I like the remote best because I run outside and tablets, smartphones etc. screens washout in the direct sunlight...so uh thanks MTH  

H1000 posted:

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

This just came to me, so according to most of you this change makes thing "cheaper". Old TIU and Remote control = $369.95 MSRP. The new TIU and WIU combo = $369.95 MSRP + $25 APP FEE + $25 Tablet == $420 MSRP. Now wait, isn't this supposed to be a more cost-effective solution? Did I miss something?

369.95 Old TIU and Remote control + 169.95 DCS Remote 2 + 169.95 DCS remote 3 + 169.96 DCS remote 4 + 169.95 Replacemnt for dropped DCS remote 2 = $1049.75

369.95 TIU & WIU combo + $5 app fee (don't need $25 upgrade if you don't have an AIU) + $25 Tablet 1 +$25 Tablet 2 + $25 Tablet 3 + $25 Tablet 4 + $25 replacement for dropped tablet 2 = $499.95

See how that works?

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

I think after the second or third remote/tablet you have to invest in a Dr. visit not a new device.

I have not found a way to run conventional  engines with any  phone or pads yet and i run both s and o conventional and and command with the remote

Casey Jones2 posted:

FYI the "cheap" Android tablets don't perform very well...plan on spending around $100. On another post MTH R&D themselves posted "buy an IPad" because of Android issues.

Personally I like the remote best because I run outside and tablets, smartphones etc. screens washout in the direct sunlight...so uh thanks MTH  

I have two RCA bargain tablets and have also experiment with some Polaroid Budget devices. Yeah these are not great units for most things we like to do with our everyday phones and don't hold a candle to the specs of latest tablets and phones available, but they run the app just fine.

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

H1000 posted:

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

This just came to me, so according to most of you this change makes thing "cheaper". Old TIU and Remote control = $369.95 MSRP. The new TIU and WIU combo = $369.95 MSRP + $25 APP FEE + $25 Tablet == $420 MSRP. Now wait, isn't this supposed to be a more cost-effective solution? Did I miss something?

369.95 Old TIU and Remote control + 169.95 DCS Remote 2 + 169.95 DCS remote 3 + 169.96 DCS remote 4 + 169.95 Replacemnt for dropped DCS remote 2 = $1049.75

369.95 TIU & WIU combo + $5 app fee (don't need $25 upgrade if you don't have an AIU) + $25 Tablet 1 +$25 Tablet 2 + $25 Tablet 3 + $25 Tablet 4 + $25 replacement for dropped tablet 2 = $499.95

See how that works?

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

I think after the second or third remote/tablet you have to invest in a Dr. visit not a new device.

No, we just buy some heavy duty rubber cases (about $5 for a three pack) for our tablets and then don't worry nearly as much when kids drop them while operating the kids layout. Then if a tablet does break, it's $25 not $150. Can't seem to find an otterbox case for the DCS remote yet.

We have multiple operators, that can control everything if needs be. Our controllers are cheap and we have the ability to add up to 250 app enabled devices if would ever so desire.

My layout is 100% Legacy and I suspect Lionel will eventually get to the same place. Building new software apps for use on common devices will be orders of magnitude less expensive than continuing to build physical remotes with chipsets that are 20 years old. I would much rather have them spend their engineering and financial resources on new product innovations instead of keeping ancient hardware alive. Given the shrinking customer base, it seems to make good sense to me. 

Rider Sandman posted:

My layout is 100% Legacy and I suspect Lionel will eventually get to the same place. Building new software apps for use on common devices will be orders of magnitude less expensive than continuing to build physical remotes with chipsets that are 20 years old. I would much rather have them spend their engineering and financial resources on new product innovations instead of keeping ancient hardware alive. Given the shrinking customer base, it seems to make good sense to me. 

So.....you're OK with something that profits Lionel or MTH exclusively while you receive less choices and fewer options as a result?

And you don't think that Lionel or MTH has ANY obligation to continue to support parts of their operating systems that they sold to us (and we bought into) 15-20 years ago?

If so, I strenuously (but respectfully) disagree.

Doug-Sr posted:

I have not found a way to run conventional  engines with any  phone or pads yet and i run both s and o conventional and and command with the remote

Wiu and the app don't support conventional mode the way the tiu did? Ie controlling conventional via track voltage set by the tiu via the remote? 

yea i know thats what i dont like about dropping the remote