Goodbye DCS Remote announced at York - Bummer

ogaugenut posted:

Someone mentioned running MTH trains on DCC.  For the uninitiated how well does this work?   What are the pros and cons of DCC with MTH.  What would a good DCC setup for a moderate O gauge  basement layout cost?

Thanks  Bill

The NCE wireless starter set that I like (made in USA) is between $750 & $1,000 MSRP depending on whether or not you need a 10 amp power supply. These prices are from the NCE website, I am not current on the street prices. I have been looking at these for a few years now and NCE is my long time favorite. It has a remote that is very similar to the MTH remote. 

As far as I have heard the MTH PS3 engines work just fine on DCC. What may (or may not?) be missing are some of the custom CV settings that some of the other DCC decoders might have? However, I am really not up on all the details here. I have also heard that the MTH PS3 engines have more features in DCS than DCC, but again no hands on experience here.

I have not followed any of the other DCC systems since I first looked at them several years ago, but I am guessing they are all somewhat competitively priced. Also, I am no DCC expert, but I think the starter kits include all you need to get up and running. I am pretty sure there will be other items you will need/want after you get going so that will be additional cost.

The NCE website has some good info, and I am pretty sure their competitors would also have good info on their websites. 

ogaugenut posted:

Someone mentioned running MTH trains on DCC.  For the uninitiated how well does this work?   What are the pros and cons of DCC with MTH.  What would a good DCC setup for a moderate O gauge  basement layout cost?

Thanks  Bill

DCC is basically the same as the MTH DCS except the output power is DC as opposed to AC. You enter your engines in to the remote which identifies them by a number you chose, e.g. cab # and controls the engine with a knob and buttons like MTH's remote. The costs are similar

Dave45681 posted:

Hudson J1e posted:

.................. I hope the market is there for them to make a new remote some day down the line. 

MTH's statements pretty much define that they are not interested in being in the remote hardware design business again.  The only way I would see that changing is if NO ONE adopted the Wi-Fi using a separate device.

Obviously from this thread, there are many who ARE going that path, and some embrace it fully.  Unless that was to do a 180 for some reason, I doubt very much MTH ever invests in designing a "New and Improved" version of the existing remote.

-Dave

All I meant by what I said is I HOPE things will be different down the line and something will change and MTH will update their remote. I didn’t guarantee nor predict that it will happen. I just hope it does. It most likely won’t but I can still hope. 

DCC systems can also be controlled via WiFi and through tablets and phones. I have to wonder if this is the future then why aren’t the DCC companies getting rid of their remotes? 

I’m so glad we’ve got a new app to run the 18-year old TIU. Instead of an 18-year old remote. 

Either way, no matter how you control it,  the outdated and slow signal processing and unstable variable voltage control of the TIU remains the same as always. 

Its time for MTH to update the TIU hardware and get reliable variable voltage control like the Lionel Legacy Powermaster. Until then, each app release is just another lipstick color on a ___ .

I think by the time remotes become extinct, most of us here will be dead.

Dave Zucal posted:

I think by the time remotes become extinct, most of us here will be dead.

I have to agree with you, Dave, but it is a rather depressing thought. May someone will come up with an engineer's hat that will be rigged with sensors so we can run our trains by brain waves.

sxe60 posted

DCC is basically the same as the MTH DCS except the output power is DC as opposed to AC. You enter your engines in to the remote which identifies them by a number you chose, e.g. cab # and controls the engine with a knob and buttons like MTH's remote. The costs are similar

Correction: DCC power output IS "AC", and NOT "DC".

It's easy to tell.  Set a regular, non-decoderized loco on a live DCC track.  The loco will sit there and "buzz", rather than taking off like a rocket in one direction or the other.  Which is pretty much what any DC motor does when energized with AC current. 

Mixed Freight posted:

sxe60 posted

DCC is basically the same as the MTH DCS except the output power is DC as opposed to AC. You enter your engines in to the remote which identifies them by a number you chose, e.g. cab # and controls the engine with a knob and buttons like MTH's remote. The costs are similar

Correction: DCC power output IS "AC", and NOT "DC".

It's easy to tell.  Set a regular, non-decoderized loco on a live DCC track.  The loco will sit there and "buzz", rather than taking off like a rocket in one direction or the other.  Which is pretty much what any DC motor does when energized with AC current. 

In actuality, DCC output is DC acting like a form of AC. According to Wikipedia, The voltage to the track is a bipolar DC signal. This results in a form of alternating current, but the DCC signal does not follow a sine wave. Instead, the command station quickly switches the direction of the DC voltage, resulting in a modulated pulse wave. The length of time the voltage is applied in each direction provides the method for encoding data. To represent a binary one, the time is short (nominally 58 µs for a half cycle), while a zero is represented by a longer period (nominally at least 100 µs for a half cycle).

sxe60 posted:

Mixed Freight posted:

sxe60 posted

DCC is basically the same as the MTH DCS except the output power is DC as opposed to AC. You enter your engines in to the remote which identifies them by a number you chose, e.g. cab # and controls the engine with a knob and buttons like MTH's remote. The costs are similar

Correction: DCC power output IS "AC", and NOT "DC".

It's easy to tell.  Set a regular, non-decoderized loco on a live DCC track.  The loco will sit there and "buzz", rather than taking off like a rocket in one direction or the other.  Which is pretty much what any DC motor does when energized with AC current. 

In actuality, DCC output is DC acting like a form of AC. According to Wikipedia, The voltage to the track is a bipolar DC signal. This results in a form of alternating current, but the DCC signal does not follow a sine wave. Instead, the command station quickly switches the direction of the DC voltage, resulting in a modulated pulse wave. The length of time the voltage is applied in each direction provides the method for encoding data. To represent a binary one, the time is short (nominally 58 µs for a half cycle), while a zero is represented by a longer period (nominally at least 100 µs for a half cycle).

Correct, sxe60.  Rapid direction switching of DC current is commonly known as AC current.  That's exactly what I said.  I'm glad you agree.

  It's not common AC, but pulsed DC Waves, PW is the more common term, even in everyday industry, because it notes an absence of opposing charge polarities. PWM if you modulate the pulses (methods vary) and use it as a signal.

The fact a plain DC motor won't run on a DCC line is curious. I can only assume the power is "reassembled" on a decoder with capacitance to get a longer, more usable pulse for the motor.

sxe60 posted:

ogaugenut posted:

Someone mentioned running MTH trains on DCC.  For the uninitiated how well does this work?   What are the pros and cons of DCC with MTH.  What would a good DCC setup for a moderate O gauge  basement layout cost?

Thanks  Bill

DCC is basically the same as the MTH DCS except the output power is DC as opposed to AC. You enter your engines in to the remote which identifies them by a number you chose, e.g. cab # and controls the engine with a knob and buttons like MTH's remote. The costs are similar

As someone who owns both systems I would say they are not basically the same but they are similar. Each system has its pro and cons. DCS is easier to use than DCC but that is not to say that DCC is difficult to use. DCC definitely costs more as outlined by RTR12 above but it is a one time expense. DCS does things that DCC doesn’t do but what I like best about DCC is the signal and power are one and the same. It’s practically impossible to get power to a locomotive and not get the command signal to that locomotive. Therefore there are no “Engine Not On Track” or “Check Track” or flashing lights (as with TMCC) so the locomotives respond each and every time I enter a command on the remote as if they were wired directly to the power. Just to name a few differences. 

Just to be clear I am not against the app or controlling trains through it and WiFi. I did it at one of the shows and it was fun. I just agree with GRJ that users should have a choice of the app or remote but I understand MTH doesn’t do what they do just for fun, they are business and if makes good financial sense to stop supporting the remote in the near future than so be it. I only have one remote and if it breaks someday and I can’t fix it I guess I will have to upgrade my system to WiFi. 

Adriatic posted:

  It's not common AC, but pulsed DC Waves, PW is the more common term, even in everyday industry, because it notes an absence of opposing charge polarities. PWM if you modulate the pulses (methods vary) and use it as a signal.

The fact a plain DC motor won't run on a DCC line is curious. I can only assume the power is "reassembled" on a decoder with capacitance to get a longer, more usable pulse for the motor.

Yeah, I know.  I realized there was sumthin' funny going on one time when I went to check to check the voltage on an NCE Power Cab wall-wart power supply with a high quality, Harbor Freight digital multi-meter (the finest multi-meter you can buy for $1.99, limit 5, when they're on sale).  If memory serves, I couldn't get a reading when checking for AC voltage, but DID get a reading when checking for DC voltage.  Imagine my surprise! 

And yet, a standard DC locomotive just sits there and "buzzes" when placed upon DCC powered track.  Just like it would if applying straight AC current.  Which is why I like to argue (incorrectly, of course) that it's AC current. 

The electrical gurus need to come up with a better, easier-to-understand explanation than the current gobbledygook, sulfur-infused explanation that they currently have.  If they can come up with something that I can understand, then ANYBODY can understand it. 

Hudson J1e posted:

sxe60 posted:

ogaugenut posted:

Someone mentioned running MTH trains on DCC.  For the uninitiated how well does this work?   What are the pros and cons of DCC with MTH.  What would a good DCC setup for a moderate O gauge  basement layout cost?

Thanks  Bill

DCC is basically the same as the MTH DCS except the output power is DC as opposed to AC. You enter your engines in to the remote which identifies them by a number you chose, e.g. cab # and controls the engine with a knob and buttons like MTH's remote. The costs are similar

As someone who owns both systems I would say they are not basically the same but they are similar. Each system has its pro and cons. DCS is easier to use than DCC but that is not to say that DCC is difficult to use. DCC definitely costs more as outlined by RTR12 above but it is a one time expense. DCS does things that DCC doesn’t do but what I like best about DCC is the signal and power are one and the same. It’s practically impossible to get power to a locomotive and not get the command signal to that locomotive. Therefore there are no “Engine Not On Track” or “Check Track” or flashing lights (as with TMCC) so the locomotives respond each and every time I enter a command on the remote as if they were wired directly to the power. Just to name a few differences. 

Just to be clear I am not against the app or controlling trains through it and WiFi. I did it at one of the shows and it was fun. I just agree with GRJ that users should have a choice of the app or remote but I understand MTH doesn’t do what they do just for fun, they are business and if makes good financial sense to stop supporting the remote in the near future than so be it. I only have one remote and if it breaks someday and I can’t fix it I guess I will have to upgrade my system to WiFi. 

Good points.  If MTH wants to get out of the remote business, perhaps NCE, Digitrax, and others would pick it up.  After all, that's what they're in business for (DCC systems, not making model trains like MTH).

With NCE DCC, you can re-map the function buttons to your heart's content (or so the instructions claim, I've never really done it).  Does MTH provide a CV map for all of their DCS functions?  If so, then I would think one could set up an NCE Pro Cab to run all of the DCS functions with a minimum of hassles.  If not, then maybe some NCE virtuoso could go in and figure out all of the DCS CV's if given enough time.

I too have run trains on a few occasions with an i-phone.  Fun?  Oh, I don't know.  For me, it was okay.  But I think I still prefer a wireless remote as opposed to i-phone or tablet. 

Mixed Freight posted:

Adriatic posted:

  It's not common AC, but pulsed DC Waves, PW is the more common term, even in everyday industry, because it notes an absence of opposing charge polarities. PWM if you modulate the pulses (methods vary) and use it as a signal.

The fact a plain DC motor won't run on a DCC line is curious. I can only assume the power is "reassembled" on a decoder with capacitance to get a longer, more usable pulse for the motor.

Yeah, I know.  I realized there was sumthin' funny going on one time when I went to check to check the voltage on an NCE Power Cab wall-wart power supply with a high quality, Harbor Freight digital multi-meter (the finest multi-meter you can buy for $1.99, limit 5, when they're on sale).  If memory serves, I couldn't get a reading when checking for AC voltage, but DID get a reading when checking for DC voltage.  Imagine my surprise! 

And yet, a standard DC locomotive just sits there and "buzzes" when placed upon DCC powered track.  Just like it would if applying straight AC current.  Which is why I like to argue (incorrectly, of course) that it's AC current. 

The electrical gurus need to come up with a better, easier-to-understand explanation than the current gobbledygook, sulfur-infused explanation that they currently have.  If they can come up with something that I can understand, then ANYBODY can understand it. 

DC Signal. Level signal at a given voltage:

DCC Signal.  Switches between plus and minus voltage and pulse width varies:

AC Signal.  Alternates gradually between plus and minus voltages at a fixed rate:

Rusty

I run One Gauge PS3 indoors and outside with the NCE DCC Power Pro 10amp RC set ($600). The 10amp set was designed for O and G. Older PS2 engines need to be updated to PS3 to use DCC. Their are plenty sound functions and consist lash up function works unlike DCS. The DCC track signal also works much better outdoors imo. DCS requires more expensive SS track or converting to battery power for smooth running outdoors. NCE is Made in USA and offers excellent customer service. DCC dominates all scale control in Europe. 

Adriatic posted:

The fact a plain DC motor won't run on a DCC line is curious. I can only assume the power is "reassembled" on a decoder with capacitance to get a longer, more usable pulse for the motor.

Not curious at all, the average DC offset of the DCC signal is zero volts.  It really is an AC signal.  Ac waveforms can be any shape, for instance, all of the waveforms below are AC waveforms.

Rusty Traque posted:

Mixed Freight posted:

Adriatic posted:

  It's not common AC, but pulsed DC Waves, PW is the more common term, even in everyday industry, because it notes an absence of opposing charge polarities. PWM if you modulate the pulses (methods vary) and use it as a signal.

The fact a plain DC motor won't run on a DCC line is curious. I can only assume the power is "reassembled" on a decoder with capacitance to get a longer, more usable pulse for the motor.

Yeah, I know.  I realized there was sumthin' funny going on one time when I went to check to check the voltage on an NCE Power Cab wall-wart power supply with a high quality, Harbor Freight digital multi-meter (the finest multi-meter you can buy for $1.99, limit 5, when they're on sale).  If memory serves, I couldn't get a reading when checking for AC voltage, but DID get a reading when checking for DC voltage.  Imagine my surprise! 

And yet, a standard DC locomotive just sits there and "buzzes" when placed upon DCC powered track.  Just like it would if applying straight AC current.  Which is why I like to argue (incorrectly, of course) that it's AC current. 

The electrical gurus need to come up with a better, easier-to-understand explanation than the current gobbledygook, sulfur-infused explanation that they currently have.  If they can come up with something that I can understand, then ANYBODY can understand it. 

DC Signal. Level signal at a given voltage:

DCC Signal.  Switches between plus and minus voltage and pulse width varies:

AC Signal.  Alternates gradually between plus and minus voltages at a fixed rate:

Rusty

 

Thanks Rusty, I think the I'm starting to see a light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak.

Here's what I'm seeing now: A DC locomotive will buzz on DCC because the motor is not sure which way to rotate (the rapidly changing voltage polarity at the full voltage), with the pulse widths being basically meaningless to the motor.

On the other hand, a decoder-equipped loco knows how fast to go (due to the coding of a bunch of variable pulse widths, the voltage to the DC motor is regulated up or down to control motor speed), AND which direction to rotate (the pulse width coding also regulates which side of the plus or minus voltage is being fed to the motor).

If I am grasping this correctly, then we need to put our heads together like a "Three Stooges" think-tank fashion (insert sound effects here) and come up with a slightly better, more descriptive name for the process, if that would even be possible. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Adriatic posted:

The fact a plain DC motor won't run on a DCC line is curious. I can only assume the power is "reassembled" on a decoder with capacitance to get a longer, more usable pulse for the motor.

Not curious at all, the average DC offset of the DCC signal is zero volts.  It really is an AC signal.  Ac waveforms can be any shape, for instance, all of the waveforms below are AC waveforms.

Thanks GRJ!  I have always thought this myself, and I am no electrical expert by any stretch!

Prior to Andy's post I was not going to pre-order the new MTH BiPolars...as it is I still have pause.

I certainly understand the cost factor that Andy brings up...yet the bigger picture MTH may be missing is that some of us desire as-realistic as possible controls when running our trains. Command control was the first revolution towards that goal, but Smart devices fail miserably in advancing the goal.

MTH, and Lionel for that matter, could improve their respective remote controls with throttles and levers that mimic real-train control. Sorry MTH, but Lionel's Cab II remote has achieved more progress on this front - due to Neil Young's creative input on its design. Even if this required a larger device than just put a strap on it and we'd loop it around our necks - just don't make it too heavy    Make it neat and fun to operate and people will want to build layouts and use it. Put even a bigger screen on it that'd enable on-board train video shots and you've got the best of both worlds.

I don't think I am alone in this-when I run trains I want to get away from the "video-game" and virtual world of Windows that requires staring at screens and moving my fingers across screens to move electrons. While there's a "hey I can do this" factor in running trains that way, it wears off real fast in my experience.

fwiw: It might be helpful if you all put the technical discussion on another thread, way TMI.

Guys....lets stay on the original poster's topic....the discussion about signals, waves, DCC, etc. is great but please start a separate discussion/topic...

Thanks!

The tactical advantage of buttons over touch screen for me is something beyond my control at times. I have what we were calling in cash register systems, "Highlander fingers". I literally had to hire an assistant to operate the registers I repaired when the tech "advanced" to TS.   Even today 30% of what I type on screen takes more than one poke at a screen. Other days I don't need to touch the screen. I can poke at buttons and stop a half inch away, but it triggers. I sometimes can't even answer my "smart" phone. I speak uniquely enough that voice control takes enunciation effort too .( I can't use my physical keyboard when mobile or charging) 

I'm all for new tech..for you Hey, it fed me. But I think we are too quick to toss aside the old for unperfected "newness" today.   That type of thought really wasn't acceptable till MS help "made us need them" and it snowballed. Keep up? Maybe your not as far ahead as they tell you

  Device control eliminates lost remotes as an issue. It is a cost offset, but not as big of one if you approach it differently than your device for communicating.    You could get a phone for under $50 and simply not connect to a network regularly.   Apps will allow you to transfer files from another phone or computer to it via Bluetooth or via WiFi/hotspot.... One time; done. Maybe a new engine might need an update?   Same process. It's practically that way already.

Tactical advantage goes to a remote. (Arthritis sufferers would likely do better on a screen...?  ) The large screen is nicer.

Hmm...  The remote doesn't need another $30 to make it "dropable"..... And don't forget the Gorilla glass is another $20.... A wheeler dealer type store and I bet your still at $60 on a decent brand, crap camera(5-10mpx) and low storage.

Hey, you can take pictures with the good one now since it isn't running trains! ....there is a downside... And nobody has mentioned anything on incomming calls.  What happens? Do the trains stop? Or need to be just to answer? An answer icon without the phone app coming up? Ignore the vibratiing electro-varment in your hand?

  The MTH DCS set up holds a lot of appeal. Enough I would likely choose it over a cab1 set up, except for the thumbwheel... I'd so much prefer the knob I've balked continuously on both even when the price was "right". But I'll likely pass on device control all together till an engine lands in my lap I can't say no to demands it.

   I'm wondering if BT gaming controls and a train app could co-exist. If a tactical solution is in other tech based on BT/wifi so be it; I just hate the thought of relying on a touch screen. All I "need" is one throttle knob, the rest on a screen I'd muddle through.

    Use a Wi and wheee! while you whoo whoo?

Adriatic posted:

Tactical advantage goes to a remote. (Arthritis sufferers would likely do better on a screen...?  ) The large screen is nicer.

There is an older member in our train club that has Parkinsons and operating the remotes with the tiny buttons is extremely difficult, let alone holding them like we do. The app with larger buttons ( on a 11 inch tablet) and the use of a weighted stylus has been much easier for him to use. Before the apps, he was limited to conventional operation only.

MichRR714 posted:

PJB posted:

If my situation had occurred after the handheld becomes no longer available, my options would be:  (a) download the app and risk getting fired and then use my phone to have each child have a consecutive turn playing with the trains - but only at night once I got home from work and on weekends if not traveling; (b) buy 2 smart phones purely for 5 year olds to run trains; (c) run MTH trains conventionally on a layout that has Legacy and command control Lionel engines, which are obviously preferable to conventional, or (d) not buy MTH trains.  

Not sure that adding difficulty will increase MTH's customer base for the future...

If you can afford the trains you can afford tablets that will support the MTH app.  Your arguments have no merit it today's reality.

Wow, must be nice to be loaded.  I, for one, am not.  When I got into the hobby it took me a year to save up for a set or locomotive.  So it took 2-3 years to get 2-3 locomotives.  At that point it'd take another year just to save up for a command set.  Then on top of that another year to get a smart device to use the command set?  This is actually why I never bothered with MTH sets or locomotives.  I'd rather run them now, and buy trains instead of smart devices.

And for those talking about and wanting info on DCC, please see this thread I started.

I just thought of this and I think it would also fit some of our needs.

If for whatever reason MTH kills the remote for good (before someone says anything, I know, it can take years for this to happen) they can develop and sell a hybrid type system like DJI drone users have:

It's still uses your phone and an app. You can use the phone to communicate to the wiu and select engines for example and maybe even access some basic features using the phones screen, features that are more tactile based like throttle and Brake and horn for example can have physical buttons on a remote versus virtual buttons.

Me, personally speaking, would not mind a setup like this because again it feeds to both crowds those that like tactile buttons and feedback as well as those who find it easier to use a screen to select between different engines Etc.

others have mentioned something very similar to this like a Bluetooth remote that connect to your phone and gives you physical Keys versus virtual keys.

Just some possible food for thought.

Thanks!

sinclair posted:

MichRR714 posted:

PJB posted:

If my situation had occurred after the handheld becomes no longer available, my options would be:  (a) download the app and risk getting fired and then use my phone to have each child have a consecutive turn playing with the trains - but only at night once I got home from work and on weekends if not traveling; (b) buy 2 smart phones purely for 5 year olds to run trains; (c) run MTH trains conventionally on a layout that has Legacy and command control Lionel engines, which are obviously preferable to conventional, or (d) not buy MTH trains.  

Not sure that adding difficulty will increase MTH's customer base for the future...

If you can afford the trains you can afford tablets that will support the MTH app.  Your arguments have no merit it today's reality.

Wow, must be nice to be loaded.  I, for one, am not.  When I got into the hobby it took me a year to save up for a set or locomotive.  So it took 2-3 years to get 2-3 locomotives.  At that point it'd take another year just to save up for a command set.  Then on top of that another year to get a smart device to use the command set?  This is actually why I never bothered with MTH sets or locomotives.  I'd rather run them now, and buy trains instead of smart devices.

 

Don't have to be loaded, budget tablets and used devices are everywhere. My last two tablet purchases cost $25 a piece. I like using a smaller display as my primary walk around device so I'm using a Motorola XT907 (razr-m) Smartphone (without any phone service) to run my trains. It cost $13 used on eBay.

If you want to start looking into DCC Look into ESU's new remote system.

To think only a short time ago there was a movement to try and make running trains as realistic as possible with some type of control that would simulate the real thing in some fashion.

Phone addiction is real among teenagers and millennials.  20 year studies are just starting, but evidence so far shows these things and screens affect the brain, not is a good way.  When Mom and Dad yell you have to put that phone down, go run your trains, junior will say I can't.   That's how I run my trains.  Long live addiction!

-Crank

  I don't think the addiction to phone study will pan out any different than addiction to video games, tv, or even the tv temote (which is garanteed to make a sloth out of you ).

   It could though. With much more of your attention and problem solving thought tied up in associative ways of  finding any info fast, bad habilts can developed; include buying into the first info you find. Being in print doesn't carry the objective credence it used to ....unless it's what you WANT to hear . Though there is more info out there, I take modern info with far more salt than I used to. 

  The Digital RC remote is exactly the type of thing I Ihad in mind, but as a programable version, they aren't exactly cheap .....yet. 

   Plus personally, I'd only "need" a throttle to be physical for fast and reliable reaction time, the rest is a true whine 

Well!!!

A lot of PASSION for the remotes!!!! Not so much passion for the WIU&Phone Setup.

If MTH reads all of this,I would conclude that people are MUCH more interested in being able to buy a replacement remote,than they are about running out and getting the Wi-Fi setup!!!!!

The Wi-Fi setup is a FABULOUS alternative way to run MTH trains,and of course it will have it's bugs and glitches for a few years while it becomes dialed in. But in my opinion,NOTHING is ever going to make KIDS love model trains as much as MOST of us here do.  

As we,(males,age 40-100 presently) exit this planet,the O gauge train business will never be as popular as it was to people in our age bracket.

Kids may enjoy giving the trains a few laps around Dad's layout,but not many of them are sitting around dreaming about which O gauge train will be under the tree for them at Christmas.(We will be the only ones dreaming about which trains we may get this Christmas!!!!) 

I say,Put some money into the R&D of an updated,more expensive remote.That's where the money is.

KIDS are into FORTNITE,and other things these days.If they do have a choice, they will be getting the latest XBOX or PLAYSTATION 5-7.

Kids cannot AFFORD to be in this hobby,You need plenty of disposable income to get into Premier or Legacy O gauge.

I scrape by just to be able to buy the USED engines & layout items  I get.I hate to say it,but these are the best of times so let's enjoy them!!!! 

We are the LAST generation that will go BAT**** crazy over a model train,and be HAPPY to pay $1,500-$2,500 for that train.Again,just my opinion.  

Mike,Please Build Us a better,improved remote or at least keep making the remotes we have now.That is your customer base. 

Listen to them ROAR on this thread. 

I love my remote,and would not run Wi-Fi if I got it for free.That phone or tablet is the first thing we touch in the morning,and the last thing we touch at night. 

It's nice to be able to get away from it,and relax and run some MTH trains!!!!!

Again,Just my take on things.-Kenny Baughman

kennyb posted:

Well!!!

A lot of PASSION for the remotes!!!! Not so much passion for the WIU&Phone Setup. ...snip... That phone or tablet is the first thing we touch in the morning,and the last thing we touch at night. 

-Kenny Baughman

I would prefer a remote if I used DCS but I do not use it (or TMCC, either). Note that my phone has not been turned on for a week or so, I rarely use it except when travelling.

I think the original remote in dcs isn't that great, the app if put on a nice tablet was flawless for me but I've done away with all the electronic engines. All the legacy and protosound 2/3 engines just don't last that long. The parts for a lot of each brand are non existent.  I'm done with them. At this point,  I could take or leave any of the remote systems. The best one was the z4000 remote that hooked into the z4000 transformer.  

Eccentric Crank posted:

To think only a short time ago there was a movement to try and make running trains as realistic as possible with some type of control that would simulate the real thing in some fashion.

Phone addiction is real among teenagers and millennials.  20 year studies are just starting, but evidence so far shows these things and screens affect the brain, not is a good way.  When Mom and Dad yell you have to put that phone down, go run your trains, junior will say I can't.   That's how I run my trains.  Long live addiction!

-Crank

I've been reading this book (not done yet), and I find the points the author makes point on regarding the addictive nature of the tech (not just for teens/millennials, but they are just the first generation to be growing up (or grown up) with these things in their lives).   As you mention, he also touches on the screens and the certain types of light they emit that are pleasing to the eyes/brain to contribute to the addiction.  I'd go further back since I grew up in the 70s/80s and suggest it may include any of the game systems/computers at that time that had tons of games for them (Atari/Colecovision/Intellivision/Commodore 64/early Nintendo, etc).  Those were certainly less in the feedback department though since all of those predated any serious interaction over the internet included with the games, you were playing against the computer or someone sitting right next to you in the room for the most part.

He even goes a little off that train of thought (train related pun - now this is train related ) in a few chapters, suggesting how the same can apply to any tech that constantly gives feedback and something you are measuring yourself against (step trackers, fit-bits, etc.).  Obviously the exercise related ones at least have some benefit vs. just playing a game/app on the phone that is exclusively to entertain, but it's still an interesting discussion.

-Dave

Why mess with smart phones or tablets...

Rusty

Dmaxdeere87 posted:

All the legacy and protosound 2/3 engines just don't last that long. 

i dont know about that....i have proto 2 locos with the  5v boards from the 1st year issue running fine today.....

Jim Berger posted:

Dmaxdeere87 posted:

All the legacy and protosound 2/3 engines just don't last that long. 

i dont know about that....i have proto 2 locos with the  5v boards from the 1st year issue running fine today.....

Same with me,

I took a ten year break from the hobby and started up again a year or so ago.  Almost all of my stuff is MTH, and the engines are ether whistle only, proto or Proto 2. Everything runs great to this date (battery change and lube) with my DCS and remote - version 2.21!     I love the remote.

I spoke to Andy Edelman at Milwaukee's Trainfest in 2017 and he indicated getting component parts for the handheld was becoming a problem. May be part of the reason they prefer the transfer to wifi/smartphone control.

Jim Berger posted:

Dmaxdeere87 posted:

All the legacy and protosound 2/3 engines just don't last that long. 

i dont know about that....i have proto 2 locos with the  5v boards from the 1st year issue running fine today.....

Yes but when something happens to it,there's no parts, you have to upgrade to proto 3. The most reliable of electronic era is the proto 2 3v and early tmcc.  Even protosound 1 engines are super reliable with a bar in them.

Dmaxdeere87 posted:

Jim Berger posted:

Dmaxdeere87 posted:

All the legacy and protosound 2/3 engines just don't last that long. 

i dont know about that....i have proto 2 locos with the  5v boards from the 1st year issue running fine today.....

Yes but when something happens to it,there's no parts, you have to upgrade to proto 3. The most reliable of electronic era is the proto 2 3v and early tmcc.  Even protosound 1 engines are super reliable with a bar in them.

All protosound 2 (3 or 5 volt) boards have a Protosound32 upgrade kit available to them. This part essentially upgrades them to Protosound 3. I really haven't had any problems with the PS3 stuff yet nor have had to make any repairs to them due to electronics failure. the PS3 upgrades kits are by far much easier to install and provide many more features than the previous PS2 upgrade kits.

I can see the advantages of the App/Wi-Fi based control over the remote.

Some of these are specific to living here in the U.K. Using a standard Wi-Fi system avoids regulatory problems with the remote. As I understand from people who have bought the remote here rather than imported it personally. The radio board is removed from U.K. sold DCS remotes.

Secondly it’s easer to pick up a new phone/tablet than a DCS remote if you damage it. Especially over here.

That said my 10 year old likes the specific remotes DCS and CAB2 as to quote him they “feel special”.  He’s had a Ipad for years but he’s not that into controlling the trains from it.

On a side note he does deeply study the Lionel or MTH catalogue when they come out. He chose his Christmas present from the Lionel catalogue back in March! Not changed his mind yet. Which is good as I had to put in the overtime.

I guess he’s not the average kid.

Nick

As much as I enjoy the DCS remote I'm just going to run with it till its end and not worry about it.  I'll see whats available at that time, you never know!