Help with Double-motor 2333 F3 Repair

Did you check the gears and make sure when the comutatior is turned the wheels sill turn? Sometimes the gears are worn in one direction, cock at an angle, and will bind for that truck going in one direction.This was notorious for mpc and plastic gears.

Bill, are the motors separated from the trucks?  I ask because if the motors are attached to the trucks and you are experiencing this problem, it's likely that the truck that is locking-up has excessive fore/aft play in the worm shaft.  If that's the problem, it's easily fixed with a thin shim.

 

If the motors are separated from the trucks, I have no suggestions.

I had that happen to a NW pulmore I have.

My one real failure, I never figured it out exactly.

But it appears it was in one of the dual field windings.(have you checked the orientation if it has two?)

(nice gears, no axle run-out, new arm. failed, new brush cap failed, but the old salvaged parts saved another growler.???)

I thought about a Timco conversion if I don't bump into a good motor dirt cheap.

 

 The old windings frame is now scenery in the electric power plant's yard, next to the dummied up NW.

 

Good luck Bill.

Check the bushings for the worm gear in the "bad" motor.  The hole in the bushing is not in the center of the bushing and, if inserted up side down, will not mesh the gears correctly.  Sounds like one bushing may be correct and the other one up side down; consequently, the motor will drive in only one direction.  An easy fix if this is the problem.

Thanks for your response.  On the bad motor, yes, the wheels do turn when the commutator turns.  And I can manually turn the commutator in both directions and the wheels turn accordingly.  The gears do not look abnormally worn.  I did notice some back and forth play on the idler gear but the idler gear on the truck on the good motor has the same amount of play.

 

Bill  

Carl:

 

Following your suggestion I removed the truck and held it above the gears and grounded it but it still did the same thing. 

 

Thanks for your response. 

 

Bill  

Bill,

 

  Check very closely the windings on the armature where they are soldered.  Sounds as if one may be loose, broken solder joint.  It may look good, but not having a solid connection.  I had this problem with a PW 2343 F3 on it's pullmor motor, and took some close inspection to find.  Eventually did locate when checked with ohm meter for continuity in windings.  Hope this helps.

 

Jesse

 

 

That may be the problem.  But I would have to pull the drive gear off of the shaft to remove the armature to get at that bushing, right?  How would I do that?

 

Thanks,

 

Bill

Bill,

 

  I gather you are talking about a Lionel Post War 2333 F3 engine?  If you are, the motor may be a horizontal geared motor, or is it an earlier vertical motor?  Either way, remove the motor mounting screw from the bottom of the truck, remove the motor assembly.  The drive shaft/gear assembly sits in the bottom of the truck, supported by the bushings on both ends of the shaft.  They simply lift straight out, geared shaft and both bushings together.  The shaft will easily remove from the bushings.  Simply reverse order to reinstall, new bushings are easy to obtain and not expensive, lubricate with a quality product.. I use lithium grease as it holds up best for me.  Be certain to not tighten the motor mounting screw too tight, and the spring is in place under the swivel alignment pin if it is a horizontal motor.

I have the fix for that if it ever happens again. It's not an electrical issue!

Related to this issue is that the 2333 field lamination assembly has a tendency to work itself loose from the motor casting when the rivets weaken, causing a bad/weak ground, often in just one direction. This is compounded by 50-60 years of oil/lube working it's way into the rivet bore further insulating the two pieces.

Bill, hold*on was referring to the bushings on either end of the double worm shaft located in the truck, with a spur gear on one end.  This truck drive is described in more detail by texastrain.  These are the non-symmetrical bushings, which can be found upside down.  Both must be set to provide the closest mesh between the worms and the worm wheels on the axle.  Failure to do this usually results in one or both worms cutting a trough through the tops of the teeth on the softer wheel, due to lack of continuous gear contact action in mesh, as will holes worn oblong in these bushings.  IMHO, the error in placement is more likely than oblong holes.

 

Could you confirm that you have the black plastic cap with inset brushes?  Some of the 2333 had the earlier bright metal brush towers, which used different brushes and brush springs (helical, over the brush and within the tower).  The brushes were also different.

 

Miscellaneous:  I have seen failure in solder joints due to the thin coat of insulating shellac (on the wire used in windings) remaining intact within the joint.  Both brushes provide the current path through the armature windings-- the armature windings are not connected to frame common, but simply to each other.  IIRC, the armature resistance is about 1 ohm when the brushes are not on the gaps.  You'd want to check for same resistance in all the possible brush positions (6, to test with the DC meter current flowing in both directions in turn; I prefer to probe directly on the commutator surface or tab when looking for equal resistance; including the brushes may show brush anomalies due to brush position).  The field is only one winding in these motors (2333), AFAIK; this would be generally true with 3-position E-units.  (Electronic e-units can be seen with two-winding DC fields and DC armature current as some UP SD-40s.) The field winding has one end connected to frame common; might examine this connection closely as it is may be mechanically bolted.

 

PS-- The armature circuit you are testing can be pictured having two windings in series, the ends of these two in series being connected across in parallel by the remaining third winding.  The brushes are at either end of the third winding.  Each of the three windings takes its turn being the third winding in this picture; you'll want to repeat with the ohmmeter leads reversed to check for a connection conducting in only one direction (only remotely possible).  This test will reveal an open coil; you can also check for a coil shorted to the armature shaft.  It is very difficult to test for a coil with a shorted turn (which diminishes its effectiveness much more than just the loss of the single turn, due to the induced high counter-current in the single turn); substitution of your known good armature may assist in identifying this problem.

 

--Frank

 

Edit:  Oops, I forgot switching armatures in these motors isn't easy due to the spur gear output.  If you suspect this condition of a shorted winding in the armature (by not finding anything simpler), you could try tediously measuring the motor torque, at the three comparable positions of the rotor.  On reflection, I see some hazard in the method I used, so I prefer to not describe it here.  It may be simpler and safer to just use a puller on the spur gear and install a replacement armature, if available.

Bill,I would run the sh*t out of it in the direction it is going,I mean run it for an hour,let it cool down 20 minutes,run it for another hour,let it cool down..etc.....

 

As you are doing this,try hitting the direction button evry once in awhile.Do this for a couple days.lot of times these old engines just need to run.

 

I have had ones that just decided to start acting right after I ran them at decent speed,things just seem to work loose that are binded up.

 

If this doesn't work.take the wires on the bad motor and reverse the two outer wires,changing the polarity(and direction) on that motor.Run it that way for awhile.if it won't run after reversing the wires,then it's something else like these guys are talking about.But try just running it first ...HARD.

 

Then go to reversing the two outer wires.Alot of times people run these in forward only,and that puts grooves into the commutator.Try these two things and see what happens-Kenny

Bill,Also try adjusting the screws that hold the motor down.Sometimes you have to give a half turn loose on one or both screws to get these things to act right after years of wear.-Kenny

 Thank you. If you have time, I'd love learn more about it Rob.

E-mails listed. Unless it interests Bill too??

 Your last post may have answered my issue already. It was an oily mess when I got it. I've had my share of "oily connection fun" but not just a refusal to reverse..before 

The solution is HERE.

Bill,about the screws that hold the motor down.

 

MAKE SURE that you have the spring that goes underneath the motors,and MAKE SURE that all four of the screws have the lock washers inside.

 With the power on,and engine in forward or reverse

Try experimenting with the screws,at first just make them snug,then tighten them more,oneat a time.As you do this,take a pencil,and try to 'HELP',the commutator

 

spin by taking the pencil and advancing the commutator  from  the side,with the power on.Sooner or later it should start moving on it's own.  

 

This is 'tinkering' at it's finest,and it has worked for me before.   And of course,you can pull the motor off and see if it runs by itself only.Don't forget it will not run if it is not gounded against the frame. I have got thousands  of old F3 motors running again that had the same similar problem. Give it some volts.put it in neutral,turn it up all the way and let that motor "breath"and e-unit buzz.Then hit the direction button,and try 'helping it with the pencil.It will take off and run again

Thanks to everyone who has responded and sorry I didn’t post anything yesterday as I have been tied up with other things lately.

 

Just to clarify, this locomotive is the earliest (1948-49) postwar #2333 F3 Santa Fe with the horizontal motors and brushes in copper tubes like on the earliest 671 turbines.  The problem is in the front motor only and the direction it is having problems running in is reverse. 

 

I had obviously misunderstood hold*on’s suggestion re the orientation of the bushings on the worm gear shaft in the truck.  Thanks to texastrain for clarifying.  However, as indicated in my earlier response to pingman the problem exists even when the motor is not connected to the truck.  But I checked it anyway and both bushings were installed correctly and I didn’t see any evidence of abnormally worm gears.  Interesting that this potential problem is not discussed in the service manual. 

 

And finally after all these hours of testing, I can report that it is working better, although not perfectly.  When power is applied in reverse the armature usually still turns a partial revolution and when the voltage is increased to about 14 or 15 volts it often kicks in and turns normally.  Occasionally it even starts up normally, but usually only at a higher voltage which is consistent with what kennyb said.  OTOH, occasionally it hesitates slightly and then kicks in even in the forward direction as well.  Also FWIW I’ve been doing most of my testing using a set of rollers but it seems to do better when running directly on the track.    

 

I believe the problem is electrical, not mechanical.  

 

If anything the windings on the field coil do not look as uniformly spaced as they are on the “good” motor.  When it’s hung up and I press down hard on the field windings it usually kicks in.  I think this may be related to what ACDX Ron and Frank suggested re a bad ground of the field coil.

 

Anyway, thanks again for the help,

 

Bill

Does on the track help because the other motor is attempting to get the engine moving and the wheels help get the armature rotating?

Quite possibly.  Good thought.

 

Thanks,

 

 

Bill

 

 

Bill,Bobby D is right.You gotta RUN this thing on a small oval or something.

 

I had just ASSumed you were running it on track.

I never did like in those roller things.Or the 2 foot bench test.It's got it's conveniences,but there's nothing like really running the daylights out of those postwar F3's,they seem to like the higher voltages,and you can't hurt em'

 

When I repair something for someone,I usually RUN the daylights out of it,because if somethings gonna fall off,or go wrong,I'd rather it happened to me than my customers.  

 

And going around those curves sometimes makes it a whole new ballgame.

That alone might wake it up!!  

Let the other motor PULL the bad one,and like I said,GIVE IT SOME VOLTAGE!!!hit the direction button after 5 minutes,and if it hangs up,take a pencil and push it towards the correct direction.  

 

Have you tried adjusting the brush plate/brush holders?Maybe they are too tight.Also you could try adjusting the brush springs,by taking them out,cleaning them,and SQEEZE the brush springs tightly back together,t his will shorten them a little,but that might be what you need.They will loosen up again on their own.it will make them make the brushes ride a little higher.

 

Clean the sockets that the springs go into with some track cleaner,or whatever you clean stuff with and stick a q-tip in there,there might be years of gunk up in there,not letting the brushes ride correctly.There's not much wrong with that motor,from what I have read,it's trying to run.  

 

Just a few more minor adjustments......Good Luck

Some of these motors over the years the lamination rivets can work their way lose...What I have done is remove the brush plate and brushes and place the motor face down in a vise to give you a solid surface and re-peen the rivet ends on the back of the motor.  This will tighten it back up to a new condition and assures a better ground.  Will also quiet down a very noisy motor...

 

Marty

If running well in one direction and poorly in other can be a shim issue with too much movement in shaft.