High Speed Steam in Real Life

@BillYo414

Though I have never experienced riding in a steam locomotive cab, as a member of the National Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society as well as two other versions of the same organization, one local and the other specialized, I regularly get and read many journals some with full accounts of first-hand interviews with actual steam engineers and firemen that rode on locomotives at high speeds.

One of the main functions of the Pennsylvania railroad's Southern New Jersey subdivision, the West Jersey and Seashore Railroad, was to take passengers, mainly from Philadelphia, from the ferry terminals on the Delaware River in Camden New Jersey to points on the south Jersey Seashore, the main one being Atlantic City. Southern New Jersey is topographically flat and has populations living in small towns as well as rural areas. Not all, but much of the right-of-way was straight.

The West Jersey and Seashore Railroad was in fierce competition with the Reading Railroads South Jersey division t he Atlantic City Railroad with ferry/rail terminals in Camden on the Delaware River, not far away from the West Jersey and Seashore Railroad. The reading pulled their trains with camel-back steam locomotives that were capable of extremely high speeds.

In the very late 19th and early 20th century, the Pennsylvania Railroad's main east coast passenger motive power was the Class E-6, 4-4-2, Atlantic. The Atlantics were capable of jackrabbit speeds but could not pull long trains. As the PRR developed and began to use the powerful Class K-4s locomotives as their main passenger power, the Atlantics were reduced to commuter runs and short lines including assignment to the West Jersey and Seashore Railroad. There was a long straight stretch where some enginemen (the PRR's name for the engineer) would open wide the throttle of their Atlantics (Though they were not supposed to). There are reports of the Atlantics reaching very slightly upwards of 100 miles per hour. This was a land-speed record at the time! The descriptions of the cab ride on Atlantics were that as the engine reached 60 to 75 MPH, the engine felt as if it was going to rattle itself apart. However, once it went over 75 MPH, the ride became smooth. Oh well, forget physics principles.

Another Atlantic story is that of PRR #460, the "Lindbergh Atlantic". On June 11, 1927, Charles Lindbergh returned to Washington D. C. after his Transatlantic solo flight. Several Newsreel services wanted to be first to New York City with their films of the event. One chartered a plane. The other chartered a special PRR train pulled by #460 with a car containing a dark room to develop the film enroute. The train was given priority from Washington to NYC. The plane arrived first, but the train arrived not long after with already developed film ready for distribution. The average speed was 74 MPH, a record for that trip route. However, the engine crew reported spots along the route where the throttle was opened fully and reached speeds of 115 MPH.

@Randy Harrison awesome! This is the kind of information I was looking for. It's interesting that things smoothed out above a certain speed. I would be terrified of a rough riding steamer moving fast but I suppose those guys had different knowledge than I have and maybe knew a bit more about how far they could push. Thank you very much for sharing!

I did a cab ride in UP 844 from Cheyenne to Denver a few years back.  It's a very smooth ride since the track is all welded rail and excellently maintained roadbed.  The noise level is actually quite moderate but if course ear plugs are mandatory anyway. 

I rode diesels quite a bit and there you are much closer to the front than in a steamer.  But the feeling is of mass gently rocking and moving.  Even when you go into emergency it's not a jarring event.  But get on to rough track and it gets easy to get thrown across the cab.

@Dougklink Is UP track all welded rail? or is that just more common out west? And is 844 considered advanced for its time in terms of suspension?

I suppose rough track at high speeds could send you around now that you mention it. I couldn't even guess at how fast I've been on a moving train. I've only ever been on industrial railroads (less than 25mph) and scenic railroads.

@BillYo414 posted:

@Dougklink Is UP track all welded rail? or is that just more common out west? And is 844 considered advanced for its time in terms of suspension?

I suppose rough track at high speeds could send you around now that you mention it. I couldn't even guess at how fast I've been on a moving train. I've only ever been on industrial railroads (less than 25mph) and scenic railroads.

Bill,
I would suspect that all major railroad's main lines are Continuous Welded Rail (CWR) and have been for many years. I know that on the N&W we started laying CRW way back in the seventies.

I remember reading a terrific article in Trains magazine I think it was from back in the early 1970s. It told the fireman's story of he and the engineer being called to fire up one of the last PRR T1's to take over a mail train double headed by two K4s that were having difficulty in Crestview OH if I remember correctly. They hauled the train to Ft Wayne and twisted the speedometer over the top on the final stretch of perhaps 30+ miles. He said 'the telephone poles literally looked like a picket fence' and they estimate that they were traveling in excess of 130 mph!

Have loved that steamer ever since...

Yes most of the country is cwr now.  All the main lines are.

844 was a very late build so it would have had whenever was state of the art at the end.

Fastest I've been on rail was 186 mph on the tgv from Paris to London.  I used my phone app to read the speed.  The wine in my glass didn't even have a ripple.

While I have not been on a steam locomotive running at speed, I did experience UP's 844 at what used to be a rural part of the county when it came to Phoenix in 2011.  I was photographing it just on the inside of the gates.  It was running at 60 mph and felt nothing like any diesel or electric I've ever witnessed at speed.  The ground bounced as it roared by.  Quite a moving experience.  It was a cloudy day, so I should probably do black and white versions of these images.

@Big Jim I wasn't sure because I can remember hearing the clickity-clack on the CSX lines near Youngstown, OH but I haven't paid close attention to it in years. Or maybe that isn't actually a mainline.

@c.sam posted:

He said 'the telephone poles literally looked like a picket fence' and they estimate that they were traveling in excess of 130 mph!

Sounds to me like he was driving a Hot Rod Lincoln haha But that's pretty cool I don't know much about the T1's but they're definitely of interest to me now.

@GG1 4877 That's awesome that you got to see steam at high speed like that! I've experienced diesel at probably 35MPH? I guess? It was enough that I could feel the ground rumble but steam would be incredible at that speed. Maybe one day I'll catch it somewhere!

@BillYo414 posted:

@Dougklink Is UP track all welded rail? or is that just more common out west?

It's interesting that you should ask this about UPRR, since Union Pacific was one of the last Class 1 railroads to give up installing jointed rail.  While it was installing welded rail on some lines, it also installed new 78 foot jointed rail on the line between Riverside and Los Angeles, California.  This is gone now, but was still immaculately maintained up until the early 1980s.

But, all U S Class 1 roads have installed only welded rail for years.  In some cases, welded rail that was replaced by newer welded rail, has been re-laid on secondary lines with lighter tonnages and lower speeds.

Still, there's some main line stick rail remaining in use here and there, though welded rail predominates everywhere.

@Number 90 is there some reason they resisted upgrading? Just cost of installing rail while stick rail was still working?

I feel a little dumb for not knowing welded rail was the norm. How could I miss this?!

@BillYo414 posted:

Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays to everyone! I have finally sat down for the day. Youtube suggested a video of UP 3985 cruising along at 70MPH. I went down that rabbit hole and saw numerous steamers on both sides of the pond going fast.

Can anybody speak to what that feels like in the cab? Or even what it likely feels like?

I suspect it just feels like you're going fast but it's just hard to fathom that much weight moving at such a speed. I mean my education and experience in a foundry assures me the locomotive won't fly apart as I watch everything rotate and reciprocate at such speeds but it still blows my mind when I see these videos.

Rich Melvin and other FWRHS engineers have done it with NKP 765.

Just go to YouTube and search for "NKP 765 70 mph" and "NKP 765 70 mph cab ride."

Also, C&O 614, specifically on the NJ Transit trips in 1997 or so hit 79 mph.

Skip Weythman got some terrific footage of UP844 doing 75.  Watch the men on the fireman side, and the man between cab and tender (3:25) bouncing up and down, check out the spring action on the pilot truck and drivers.  There is one spot later in the video (4:33) with a big dip at a grade crossing where everything flexes.  The tender is doing some serious side to side shimmy in spots too, a good reason to have baffles in the tank.  Be sure to go to full screen and turn up the volume.  Note the UP DDA40X.  Also note the reverse link is almost centered, the cylinders are just getting a wisp of high pressure steam to keep it at speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...TYNxtbnjI#t=4.726054

That bounce at 4:33 is incredible! @CALNNC  I never saw a locomotive move like that. Apparently 844 checks in at around 450 tons. It's amazing that the track and the locomotive don't come apart!

Is it dangerous to have water in the boiler sloshing around? I assume there aren't any baffles in the boiler.

@c.sam posted:

I remember reading a terrific article in Trains magazine I think it was from back in the early 1970s. It told the fireman's story of he and the engineer being called to fire up one of the last PRR T1's to take over a mail train double headed by two K4s that were having difficulty in Crestview OH if I remember correctly. They hauled the train to Ft Wayne and twisted the speedometer over the top on the final stretch of perhaps 30+ miles. He said 'the telephone poles literally looked like a picket fence' and they estimate that they were traveling in excess of 130 mph!

Have loved that steamer ever since...

The folks doing the T1 project are doing so (at least in theory) to try and see if it can break the official record of 126MPH for a Mallard over in the UK. There are claims of faster engines but none that I am aware of that were backed up(the T1 supposedly hit 120, the S1 supposedly as much as 140mph).  Whether the T1 actually can do that is unknown, and honestly I don't know if even the T1 project does what it is setting out to do, if they could find a place willing to let them try, I can't think of any railroad, mainstream or tourist, allowing that.

The telephone pole thing made me laugh. Michael Crichton told a story when they were filming the Great Train Robbery in Ireland, using vintage steam engines. There was a scene where Sean Connery is on top of the train with it in motion, and the train is supposed to be doing a max of like 25 mph. They filmed the scene and Connery (per Crichton), indicated they should stop, and he looked mad. He came down furious, saying he was nearly blown off the train, that they had to have been going like 50 or 60mph. He confronted the engineer about how he knew what speed to be going (the engine didn''t have a speedometer). The engineer said he and the fireman were counting the telegraph poles going by the cab per minute. Connery heard this and exploded, and said something like "you counted #*$&%&  telegraph poles, put down by #*$&%  workers, and expected them to be $**($! even? "

BillYo414@c.sam posted:

He said 'the telephone poles literally looked like a picket fence' and they estimate that they were traveling in excess of 130 mph!

Sounds to me like he was driving a Hot Rod Lincoln haha But that's pretty cool I don't know much about the T1's but they're definitely of interest to me now.

These beauties just exude speed

I had to laugh too Bill when I read the original article about the poles and immediately remembered 'Hot Rod Lincoln'. Lol.

...and that was pulling a decent sized consist too!

A quick question about modern welded rail if I may - How is temperature expansion and contraction dealt with in this case?

I rode in the cab of an English 2-8-0 when I was a kid.  This was in the 1950s.  The ride was extremely rough & scary.  I don't think we got over 10 mph.  I wouldn't have wanted to go any faster in that thing on that track.  

I took the CZ from Chicago to Emeryville, CA two years ago (2022).  The BNSF track between Chicago and Denver was very rough.  I was nearly thrown from bed several times.  I thought something was wrong with my Amtrak sleeper.  The ride on the UP between Denver and Emeryville was silky smooth.  There was nothing wrong with the sleeper.

My wife and I also experienced a rough ride on the Empire Builder between Chicago and Glacier Park in 2023.  BNSF track, in my experience, is not as smooth as UP's track.  

A railroad steam engine has multiple closely spaced fire tubes running the length of the boiler.  (A fire tube carries the hot gases from the fire through boiler.)  This will prevent most, but not all, of the free water effect (sloshing) of water back and forth.  NH Joe

@New Haven Joe posted:

A railroad steam engine has multiple closely spaced fire tubes running the length of the boiler.  (A fire tube carries the hot gases from the fire through boiler.)  This will prevent most, but not all, of the free water effect (sloshing) of water back and forth.  NH Joe

Ah, that makes sense. It's kind of obvious now that I think about it.

Expansion and contraction of welded rail can cause sun kinks in the summer and gaps in the winter.  So they have sections of short rail that they can install or remove to adjust for the temperature change.  I don't know what other things they may do.

@BillYo414 posted:

@Number 90 is there some reason they resisted upgrading? Just cost of installing rail while stick rail was still working?

Large railroads are large organizations with groups of people having varying opinions about what is best for the Company.  That's why they have System Standards, and each company differs in some things from its competitors.  The long 72-foot rails were, in themselves, an example of this.  There must have been a desire to test whether stick rail with only half as many rail joints as normal would be less expensive to maintain, than continuous welded rail, which, as has been pointed out, has to have short sections cut out or added in, seasonally.  And, when the 72 foot rails were installed in the late 1950's, there were still Section Gangs at intervals, so the bolts could be checked often.

Obviously, continuous welded rail was determined by UPRR's Engineering Department, to be their System Standard. But they were willing to experiment, and that is one of the trademarks of the pre-merger Union Pacific.