FINALLY!!

I am glad to see that OGR is further helping to promote the hobby. Good for you Mr. Melvin. Thanks,

Nickstrains.

Does National TCA have any resources fiscally to even help?

I applaud the effort and hope for the best.  Let's see what comes of it and if it will make a difference.

Always thought it was just a matter of time before it was open! Good to see some real progress toward that end!

If they can make it work it should bring in the "Greenberg type crowd" for a lack of a better phrase, might still need to tweek the schedule to make it more appealing to the average Joes schedule (Saturday hours extended?). I for one am glad there has been some movement on the TCA and EDs part to address some of the concerns that get beaten to death here at times. Here's hoping for the best.

Jerry

Thank you rich for the information here are some thoughts I have. I am a long time TCA member and volunteer of the York meet, As I do support some type of change to the York meet we have to be careful and make sure it has to be fair to everyone members and dealers, I find it strange is national has endorsed the opening to the public approach if that is the case why join TCA, I will save my 50$ and just attend the show when its open to the public, And I feel I am not alone, So my thought is the people who need to be worried about the meet to open to the public would be TCA national.

  Next is why does the meet have to be twice a year I attend many major shows like NMRA Amhurst and so on they are once a year and they enjoy great attendance why cant we make this a once a year destination .  How about just a Friday and Saturday meet maybe this will cut down on the cost to everyone.   I have talked to many dealers at the meet, Everyone has a different option on what can be done and you will have many here I hope everyone realizes that it takes a large afford to put on this meet people just have to be patient and lets go though the process carefully  

It will be interesting to see what the PA Dept of Revenue will agree to?

fl9turbo2, the plan is that the ORANGE HALL would be opened to the public on SATURDAY ONLY.

fl9turbo2 posted:

I find it strange is national has endorsed the opening to the public approach if that is the case why join TCA, I will save my 50$ and just attend the show when its open to the public, And I feel I am not alone, So my thought is the people who need to be worried about the meet to open to the public would be TCA national.

 

That is a great point but the member halls will still be just that.  For members only.  Still many like myself are primarily interested in newer trains so I would hope they could do some "member's only" times.  Our local TCA chapter usually is open an hour earlier for members and then open to the public.  It will be a balancing act to make every one happy including the PA Tax man.  As a Pennsylvanian, I know the tax man is not easy to get along with.

And I see Rich just addressed some of this with the Saturday Only Public Time.

Rich the problem with that is  if I was in the member halls selling I would be upset I would not have access to the public that's money out of my pocket potential sales then you will have many members who would want a slice of that pie then you have a total snowball affect

fl9turbo2 posted:

Rich the problem with that is  if I was in the member halls selling I would be upset I would not have access to the public that's money out of my pocket potential sales then you will have many members who would want a slice of that pie then you have a total snowball affect

Why not wait until the final results are announced. The Brown hall was empty this year and space taken in the Purple Hall for layouts. Maybe members could asked for space in those halls if they wanted to sell to the public or maybe change halls. The process has just started. 

Pete

I am familiar with a local unit of TCA with meets several times a year, that allows in the public after being open for an hour to members only.  I have not set up there and sold, since that policy was adopted,  so I can't speak from that experience, but it doesn't LOOK to me like herds of the non-member public are tramping through, nor buying out sellers.  Even with Harrisburg, Philadelphia, and Baltimore-Washington (the one time I tried to drive around this last on a Saturday, one day would not have done it...grid lock) within a one day's drive visit period, I just don't believe herds are going to show up in York, and that there are that many potential buyers who are not members.  Then, of course, with the show open to non-members, does everybody then get to pay sales tax, and count out the pennies?

YES, thank you.

colorado hirailer posted:

...Then, of course, with the show open to non-members, does everybody then get to pay sales tax, and count out the pennies?

We absorb the sales tax,  just like we do at every other show we attend. The prices don't change.

This is a non-issue for any serious vendor.

Another thought is if the manufactures are worried about there expenses then maybe they all need smaller spaces, Maybe they all need to fit in the space  of lionel or mth and use that extra space to let members who have tax numbers sell to the public

It's not a matter of expenses, it's matter of audience.

Here is a portion of an email I sent to the TCA in response to the meetings at York:

"...sales at York have dwindled to the point where we have not covered our costs for the York meet for several years. When we participate in a World's Greatest Hobby Show, Trainfest in Milwaukee or the Big E show in Springfield, we rarely cover our costs there, either. However, offsetting those losses are the many young families that attend these shows. I don't mind losing a few dollars on a show if we have the opportunity to meet new people and plant some seeds for our future. But there is never any "new blood" at York - no young people, no families, no "top of the funnel" people, no one that represents the future of the hobby. It is the same dwindling audience at every show. While it is wonderful to see old friends and make a few new ones at York each year, this is not a social event for us. It is business...and it has become unprofitable..."

It's about the future of the hobby and the audience more than it is expenses.

The solution seem to be Two Shows next to each other at at York.

A Public Dealer & Manufacture Show and a private TCA only Show & Swap meet.

Locally in the past, there been Train Shows with separate Doll & Toy Shows next door.

NMRA has conventions with a separate public Manufacture & Dealer Show nearby.

OGR Webmaster posted:

fl9turbo2, the plan is that the ORANGE HALL would be opened to the public on SATURDAY ONLY.

If it's just the Orange Hall, and only on Saturday, that would be great, if the PA Dept of Revenue agreed.

Orange Hall vendors would have to be set up all day.  Let's see what comes of this?

I have an idea. This is just a suggestion as a possibility. Since TCA members have badges that have their name and TCA number, non members could buy badges that are a different color and say something like non-member allowing them to get into the dealer halls but not the member halls. If I remember correctly there were two large layouts, one O and one S, in the Black hall, no vendors. Non members could be allowed in the dealer and layout halls while members and guests get access to all halls. This would allow members to sell without a tax ID while vendors would do business as usual. This would allow the general public in while still encouraging membership in the TCA.

fl9turbo2 posted:

Thank you rich for the information here are some thoughts I have. I am a long time TCA member and volunteer of the York meet, As I do support some type of change to the York meet we have to be careful and make sure it has to be fair to everyone members and dealers, I find it strange is national has endorsed the opening to the public approach if that is the case why join TCA, I will save my 50$ and just attend the show when its open to the public, And I feel I am not alone, So my thought is the people who need to be worried about the meet to open to the public would be TCA national.

  Next is why does the meet have to be twice a year I attend many major shows like NMRA Amhurst and so on they are once a year and they enjoy great attendance why cant we make this a once a year destination .  How about just a Friday and Saturday meet maybe this will cut down on the cost to everyone.   I have talked to many dealers at the meet, Everyone has a different option on what can be done and you will have many here I hope everyone realizes that it takes a large afford to put on this meet people just have to be patient and lets go though the process carefully  

"I will save my 50$ and just attend the show when its open to the public, And I feel I am not alone, So my thought is the people who need to be worried about the meet to open to the public would be TCA national."

It has been noted here that a large amount are TCA members strictly for going to this York meet, of which it appears the national organization gets no revenue. As many, if not almost all, TCA Divisions seem to have open to the public meets maybe that is what they need to do across the board. Could be an interesting start of discussions.

I will be attending O Scale West this Friday and Saturday in Santa Clara.  This show is open to the public but hardly anyone outside the O gauge community attends.  (The $35 registration fee may be a factor.)  There are only a handful of manufacturers.  I can only recall 3 from last year - 3rd Rail, Kohs and Key.  Public Delivery Truck was the only large vendor that I remember.

There weren't many public people attending last year's Cal-Stewart meet either although the event was widely advertised.  

I don't know if opening York to the public would draw more public interest or not.  I do think that TCA National may lose members based on many comments on this forum.

I think the reason that the WGH and other commercial shows draw larger crowds is that they are multi-scale shows.  Most of the people are coming to see and buy HO and N scale trains.  They also have large modular layouts in all scales including Lego.  O gauge is a minority at these shows.  As best that I can recall, there was one O gauge 3-rail layout and one small 2-rail display at last year's Portland NMRA convention.  In contrast, there were five or six large Lego displays at the Portland show plus many HO, N and Z gauge modular displays.

York is clearly the only large show where O gauge, both new and collectible, is the main focus.   

This will be an interesting discussion and debate that is worth having.  Clearly the manufacturers and perhaps many of the large Orange Hall vendors feel that a change is needed.  

NH Joe

Remember this who will pay for the additional time for security and staff to stay at the fairgrounds, also who will pay for a complete revamp of the registration we let the guards and medical staff leave at 2:30 when the event is completed if we keep the meet open all day there will be a cost that only the dealers will pay, If the dealers are loosing money will they pay for this

Thanks for the information it is greatly appreciated.  I have a few thoughts I would like to share as well.  Opening to the public is not a bad idea to keep the hobby going and provide opportunities for the vendors to make more money...after all this is a business.  But the carrot has to be there for the TCA members... Perhaps on Thursday instead of opening the show at Noon there could be consideration given to opening at 10AM or 11AM and those members can get done what they need in that additional time.  Then it seems less of a penalty to opening the doors to the public on Friday.  

I'm really in line with the progressive thinking here!  Thank you Rich for sharing the letter from our TCA president and part of your letter to TCA from OGR.  

I like it that the Orange Hall is open to the general public only on Saturday.  Saturday is a day when most ordinary working folks could potentially make a trip ( 1 - 2 hours or more ) to York.  Where else is the ordinary non- TCA member going to see the latest and greatest from the top train manufactures, custom layout businesses, custom building businesses, and meet publications personnel etc.   TCA members will have access to all buildings all days of York meets ... allowing the buying and selling of trains to go on as usual.  As I understand it from vendors, York is pretty slow on Saturdays as it stands now anyway.  Of course I try avoid speculating, however, I'll bet TCA will even pick up new members if they have a slick recruiting booth set up in the Orange Hall.

Sounds to me like a win - win - win - win solution that is being presented here.  A Win for both vendors and manufactures, a win for TCA, a win for expanding the hobby and building public awareness, and a win the general public.  

The ideas put forth by the OGR, the manufactures, and TCA National are certainly more than worth trying out.  We will never know how things will turnout until these new ideas are tried out.  As a TCA member I give my full support and will continue my membership in TCA if this plan goes forth. I will continue to attend on Fridays so I can purchase in the member halls and avoid the crowds in the Orange Hall on Saturdays.   

The only reason I went to York was to buy trains on the cheap. Opening the show to the public and the associated tax problems that come with it will cause those prices to rise. However this is about the future of the hobby. I think allowing the public in is the only way to save the show. The membership of the TCA isn't getting any younger and the show is in decline.

I think the discussion is to open the halls on Friday for the TCA only and Saturday for the public. Anyone who has been to York on Saturday knows that it is totally dead that day. Boosting attendance that day will make the event more profitable for all. Who knows maybe the Bandit meets will make a rebound.

Scott Smith

I think the best solution is to keep Thursday and Friday exclusively TCA.  Then, Saturday can be open to the general public, even if only the dealer halls. If the vendors feel that Thursday afternoon, Friday and Saturday are too much, then I would be ok with eliminating Thursday as long as Saturday is all day. Also, admission to the public should be a minimum of $20 for an individual or $30 for a family (spouse and children under 12). That way it pays to be a TCA member.  

New Haven Joe posted:

I will be attending O Scale West this Friday and Saturday in Santa Clara.  This show is open to the public but hardly anyone outside the O gauge community attends.  (The $35 registration fee may be a factor.)  There are only a handful of manufacturers.  I can only recall 3 from last year - 3rd Rail, Kohs and Key.  Public Delivery Truck was the only large vendor that I remember.

There weren't many public people attending last year's Cal-Stewart meet either although the event was widely advertised.  

I don't know if opening York to the public would draw more public interest or not.  I do think that TCA National may lose members based on many comments on this forum.

I think the reason that the WGH and other commercial shows draw larger crowds is that they are multi-scale shows.  Most of the people are coming to see and buy HO and N scale trains.  They also have large modular layouts in all scales including Lego.  O gauge is a minority at these shows.  As best that I can recall, there was one O gauge 3-rail layout and one small 2-rail display at last year's Portland NMRA convention.  In contrast, there were five or six large Lego displays at the Portland show plus many HO, N and Z gauge modular displays.

York is clearly the only large show where O gauge, both new and collectible, is the main focus.   

This will be an interesting discussion and debate that is worth having.  Clearly the manufacturers and perhaps many of the large Orange Hall vendors feel that a change is needed.  

NH Joe

 

My Feeling is that o scale needs a place to be the focus the problem is that look at the cost to get into the hobby its not for the average consumer if the manufactures want to help they could start by looking inward that's why when you go to shows like NMRA and so on O scale lives in the back or in the corner

If it is only the Orange hall and only on Saturdays then the Saturday hours should mimic those of other shows, open until at least 3 pm.  Just as a comparison how do the vendors at the Allentown show handle sales tax?

Like I have posted before there will be a increased cost to dealers to stay open to the public as I  said on here will the dealers agree to pay for the cost or do we pass that on to everyone to pay even non dealers, Is it fair for non dealers to pay the cost that will come with expanded hours and increased staff for 1 hall to stay open will the general public pay for the additional cost to run the event

OGR Webmaster posted:

colorado hirailer posted:

...Then, of course, with the show open to non-members, does everybody then get to pay sales tax, and count out the pennies?

We absorb the sales tax,  just like we do at every other show we attend. The prices don't change.

This is a non-issue for any serious vendor.

you are one of the few that would do that there are many dealers who would not absorb the sales tax, And don't you think that tax agents wont be looking at the event to make sure sales tax is being collected

Dslange2 posted:

Thanks for the information it is greatly appreciated.  I have a few thoughts I would like to share as well.  Opening to the public is not a bad idea to keep the hobby going and provide opportunities for the vendors to make more money...after all this is a business.  But the carrot has to be there for the TCA members... Perhaps on Thursday instead of opening the show at Noon there could be consideration given to opening at 10AM or 11AM and those members can get done what they need in that additional time.  Then it seems less of a penalty to opening the doors to the public on Friday.  

Rich said the plan is for the public to be allowed in the Orange Hall ONLY on Saturday only.  So public will not be permitted before Saturday and then only into the Orange Hall.   TCA members still have the same amount of time as before to browse and buy in ALL the halls.   Nothing has changed for TCA members with the idea that is being proposed.  I see no penalty. 

If general public want to come into the member halls then they will need a TCA membership to do so..... or at least purchase a one time only pass ( just as they do now ). 

fl9turbo2 posted:

Like I have posted before there will be a increased cost to dealers to stay open to the public as I  said on here will the dealers agree to pay for the cost or do we pass that on to everyone to pay even non dealers, Is it fair for non dealers to pay the cost that will come with expanded hours and increased staff for 1 hall to stay open will the general public pay for the additional cost to run the event

I disagree with you that there will be increased costs to the dealers.  Will there be increased costs to the Eastern Division, the group that puts on the show?  Yes.  Will there also be increased income from ticket sales to the public? That's the plan.

The increased income to the show promoter should offset the additional expenses to the show promoter.  No additional expenses to the dealers.

The dealers should see increased sales, hence increased income.  So even if the dealers expenses go up, there's income to offset it.

Don't look at the expense side of the equation.  Focus on the income side of the equation and it works out.

Stu

NOT LionelLLC posted:

fl9turbo2 posted:

Like I have posted before there will be a increased cost to dealers to stay open to the public as I  said on here will the dealers agree to pay for the cost or do we pass that on to everyone to pay even non dealers, Is it fair for non dealers to pay the cost that will come with expanded hours and increased staff for 1 hall to stay open will the general public pay for the additional cost to run the event

 

I disagree with you that there will be increased costs to the dealers.  Will there be increased costs to the Eastern Division, the group that puts on the show?  Yes.  Will there also be increased income from ticket sales to the public? That's the plan.

The increased income to the show promoter should offset the additional expenses to the show promoter.  No additional expenses to the dealers.

The dealers should see increased sales, hence increased income.  So even if the dealers expenses go up, there's income to offset it.

Don't look at the expense side of the equation.  Focus on the income side of the equation and it works out.

Stu

That's the theory but theory's don't pay the bills and it will take money on the part of the division to implement the suggestions that the dealers want.   so what happens if the division cannot cover its cost to open up to the public  do we pass that on to everyone.   What assurance do you give that we will get enough people to come and our cost will be covered you cant, you can only project and hope but in the meantime you have a lot of money out there you have spent

Thanks Rich for posting the quotes from the letters. I'll be watching this closely to see how it turns out. 

My only comment at this point is location, location, location. If you want to grow an event to include outsiders you had better be in a decent location and venue to attract the younger crowd that doesn't have unlimited time at their disposal. 

fl9turbo2 posted:

Like I have posted before there will be a increased cost to dealers to stay open to the public...

There is no additional cost to the dealers. We're already there!

fl9turbo2 posted:

...And don't you think that tax agents wont be looking at the event to make sure sales tax is being collected

Which would then make this show EXACTLY THE SAME AS EVERY OTHER SHOW WE DO! Sales tax is just part of being in business.

The sales tax issue just isn't that big a deal.

OGR Webmaster posted:

fl9turbo2 posted:

Like I have posted before there will be a increased cost to dealers to stay open to the public...

There is no additional cost to the dealers. We're already there!

fl9turbo2 posted:

...And don't you think that tax agents wont be looking at the event to make sure sales tax is being collected

Which would then make this show EXACTLY THE SAME AS EVERY OTHER SHOW WE DO! Sales tax is just part of being in business.

The sales tax issue just isn't that big a deal.

But rich I am saying there may be a multi cost system one for dealers in the orange hall and one for members since members cant sell in the orange hall then they should pay less than dealers in the orange hall, as for tax some of these small dealers may not want to absorb the cost

The TCA invites all scales to join the TCA so maybe they should invite Ho, N, Z and other mfgs. and vendors to join the York meet.

It would get more new people to come to York. 

Just a thought

OGR Webmaster posted:

no young people, no families, no "top of the funnel" people, no one that represents the future of the hobby.

Wait a minute... Does that make us "bottom of the funnel" people?   

But seriously, Rich, you make an excellent point. One of my other interests is the opera which is experiencing a very similar aging problem. I had the pleasure of going to the Metropolitan Opera last week with a group of friend, one of whom started going to the opera when she was young and her brother took her back in the 50's. She made the pointed observation that there were almost no young people in the audience. The Met has started some major outreach (simulcasts to schools and movie theaters, for example) in an attempt to attract new patrons, and the TCA needs to do the same. Hopefully, when they open the Orange Hall to the public, they will take the opportunity to advertise what goes on in the member halls as an enticement for joining the TCA.