Kris has a good point. Perhaps shifting the meet to Friday-Sunday rather than Thursday-Saturday (and keeping the hours as-is) might help a great many attend that have difficulty with the current format.
I am fortunate in that I can take my vacation days when I want, but I know for a fact that others do not have this luxury.
Andy
Andy Hummell posted:... Perhaps shifting the meet to Friday-Sunday rather than Thursday-Saturday (and keeping the hours as-is) might help a great many attend that have difficulty with the current format.
I am fortunate in that I can take my vacation days when I want, but I know for a fact that others do not have this luxury.
...
From a purely selfish perspective, I LIKE Thursday the way it is. Tends to be a less crowded day, and I prefer smaller crowds. This past York, the Orange Hall got noticably more crowded on Thursday after 5:30pm when the member halls closed. But for much of Thursday, navigating aisles in the Orange and Purple Halls was a pleasure.
Whatever changes occur will never go down well with 100% of the membership. Impossible to please all the people all the time. I just hope all this mucking around with things for the sake of change doesn't ruin the essence of what has been a wonderful event for decades.
Trying to ensure the future of the hobby is a tall order. And I'm not sure when or where York got chartered with that task. 
David
OK. Now for my thoughts and two cents on this topic. When I joined TCA all those years ago (1994), I have seen changes come over a long period of time. Time moves on, and so we have to move with the same.
While the TCA Meet at York, PA. has been, in my opinion, the Greatest Train Show On The East Coast, it is time for another change or two to occur. After reading all of the responses, MY SUGGESTION, is as follows.
And from two other O Gauge Railroading Forum Viewers, and I quote their views,
From TRUMPTRAIN:
Rich said the plan is for the public to be allowed in the Orange Hall ONLY on Saturday only. So public will not be permitted before Saturday and then only into the Orange Hall. TCA members still have the same amount of time as before to browse and buy in ALL the halls. Nothing has changed for TCA members with the idea that is being proposed. I see no penalty.
If general public want to come into the member halls then they will need a TCA membership to do so..... or at least purchase a one time only pass ( just as they do now ).
And from APPLES55, we need new members in order for this hobby to continue. I am in the 55 plus age group, and we must promote the hobby or it will eventually become a fond memory of times past.
We, the present generation of TCA Members will have to make changes if we wish to keep our hobby going. No one likes change, but, unfortunately, changes will have to be made.
Again, this is only my suggestion, and nothing is cast in stone.
Rocky Mountaineer posted:Whatever changes occur will never go down well with 100% of the membership. Impossible to please all the people all the time. I just hope all this mucking around with things for the sake of change doesn't ruin the essence of what has been a wonderful event for decades.
My sentiments exactly. While I'm not opposed to opening Orange Hall on Saturdays, I just worry, as MartyE put it, that the "hornet's nest might get shaken" with regards to the tax people. They may decide that dealer vs. member halls is a distinction without a difference and decide that they want everyone to collect taxes. This is not a big deal to businesses (or to people who don't have tables in the member halls), but to casual sellers like myself (and a lot of others I know), it is a deal breaker. If the tax man decides that everyone needs to collect taxes and do paperwork, a lot of us will simply stop selling, and if the White and maybe the Red Halls go the way of Brown Hall, what will that do to attendance?
Andy
I understand what people have been saying regarding the member halls and the tax issue. However, just because the tax man granted special permission to these members to not have to charge tax, does not mean it would stay like that forever. Every other person in Pa., and most other states as well, have to charges tax and pay the tax man if they sell something. That's just the way it is. Those people in the members halls should be happy they didn't need to pay all these years when in reality they should have.
I have been a dealer in NJ and Md. and I have my tax information and pay my tax accordingly. I don't own a business. I'm a private individual. Do I like to pay the tax.....no, but that's the law and I can't change that. You either accept it or don't sell at the shows.
It is what it is. Low numbers, aging demographics; TCA York venue its Fish or cut bait. Change is tough but obviously it needs to be done for York to be successful & continue on for years in the future. With All due respect, Lots of hand ringing here.
The TCA Bylaws, address this issue.
ARTICLE I – SCOPE AND PURPOSE
Section 2. PURPOSE: The purpose of the TCA shall be to promote the sharing of knowledge and the appreciation of collecting and operating toy, model, and scale trains.
ARTICLE XII – COMMITTEES Section 1. Standing Committees
B. Convention Guidelines E. Education
To read all the Train Collectors Association Bylaws Click here.
To have any credibility the TCA has to follow the TCA Bylaws. - Gary
Andy Hummell posted:Rocky Mountaineer posted:Whatever changes occur will never go down well with 100% of the membership. Impossible to please all the people all the time. I just hope all this mucking around with things for the sake of change doesn't ruin the essence of what has been a wonderful event for decades.
My sentiments exactly. While I'm not opposed to opening Orange Hall on Saturdays, I just worry, as MartyE put it, that the "hornet's nest might get shaken" with regards to the tax people. They may decide that dealer vs. member halls is a distinction without a difference and decide that they want everyone to collect taxes. This is not a big deal to businesses (or to people who don't have tables in the member halls), but to casual sellers like myself (and a lot of others I know), it is a deal breaker. If the tax man decides that everyone needs to collect taxes and do paperwork, a lot of us will simply stop selling, and if the White and maybe the Red Halls go the way of Brown Hall, what will that do to attendance?
Andy
If the red and whit halls go, it will turn into a greenberg type show and membership would drop like a steel plate. But I don't see that happening at all. But we all know what can happen when the tax man gets involved in something this big. But it's going to be fine guy's York will be York.
Dear All
When is the Eastern TCA going to meet and talk about changing the format York meet? I did not see it on their wensite.
Prior to this discussion coming to light, I noted in an April 18th thread -
Dave, while as you think, "the general public thing is never going to happen," most likely the PA Revenue Dept. looking the other way regarding collecting tax from ALL sellers at this and similar venues is likely in its last throes destined to end much sooner than later since according to a state representative near your area whose district is in no way impacted by any influx of $$$ generated by the York meet ...
He's stated, off the record, "with the current state of political bickering over state budget financing currently being engaged in between the governor who has proposed a significant increase in the PA sales tax and fellow State Assembly and Senate colleagues, that if the governor wants additional revenue from the state's sales tax, then the governor should first make it known to the Dept. of Revenue in the strongest possible way its current practice of selectively enforcing where the tax is or isn't collected must end NOW and the collection of sales tax from any and all venues who should already be reporting and paying it must commence immediately to bring additional money to Pennsylvania coffers!!!"
Possibly these overtures by Eastern TCA might be not only be about declining York attendance but also, albeit late in coming, their proactive attempt to maintain their "selling" members "tax free selling status" circumventing this call for closing Pennsylvania's "tax collection" loopholes.
PA benefits more from the thousands that attend for what is spent outside of the fairgrounds.
Typical government stupidity. Implement taxes = reduced attendance = reduced hotel bookings and related hotel tax collections, reduced meals at local establishments along with related meal taxes collected = less income to govt. Solution....raise taxes more to make up for shortfall caused by the original decision. The cash cow dies and relocates to a more friendly state.
they should move it to Delaware there is no state sales tax
Change is a very necessary element for success in business. ED York is a business that relies on the success of other businesses to sell and market there. As such it is the obligation of the show promoters to do everything possible to bring in new people and grow attendance. Unfortunately, under the present rules the York meet gives their exhibitors the same stale and aging audience year after year. IF one of the TCA bylaws is to promote the model train hobby they are failing miserably at that goal. Disagreement with the exclusionary policy is why I cancelled my membership two years ago. The younger family audience that I see at the Worlds Greatest Hobby on Tour Show woke me up on how this hobby must evolve. I believe for long term success the York meet must open to everyone. For starters just allow members to bring in as many "guests" not one time but as many times as they wish. Take their money, don't refuse it, and you have at least a few new faces there.
Almost anyone who knows me will know that I don't spend much time in the Orange hall. I buy a few Barclay figures each year, and I've bought a few Korber buildings (for a project I have yet to start...). I probably spend more time at the LCCA booth than anywhere else in that hall.
I read about 4 pages of the dialog about this proposed change, so I'll apologize if this was covered already. The only real effect this change has to me is that the TCA will provide Eastern with whatever resources they can, which are resources that I would assume will come from member dues. On a similar note, why is the TCA so concerned with York all of the sudden? They never seemed to butt in before.
The other thing I wonder about (and this was hinted at a few times) is that what happens if one of the public attendees damages an item? As a TCA member, I believe the TCA is supposed to help you recover costs if I damage your stuff (and choose to not make it right). I think that's why I can usually go through the halls and find a 700e Hudson, and have only seen one other one at a show outside of York. I think the higher end items won't be available for examination prior to purchase; and if that's the case, I may as mail order it.
I am not too wild about this plan, but I don't have the experience the people that are proposing it do so this may be another case of me being wrong. I also don't think there will be enough of the public attending to notice, so it's probably much ado about nothing. I absolutely like the idea of including a pass to the TCA museum with whatever ticket they would need to get into the meet (show?)
J White
From a non-TCA member perspective, I like the general idea posted here. Members should get first access on Thursday and Friday. The casual and newcomers are most likely to attend on a Saturday anyway rather than take work/school off.
I attend the bandit meets every year just to see what is there, and I usually buy at least something for the trip. If the York meet was open on a Saturday, then I'd attend as I think it would be better than a Greenberg show. I'd also encourage parents with kids in the hobby to come check it out.
I'd hope the club layouts would be open to the public also as that is what would grab kids attention, plus maybe some adults who are looking to be inspired to get back into the hobby.
To J White's point above, certainly it would be an option to sellers to change their merchandise shown during the public meet on Saturday. Valuable items, or those with limited appeal to the open audience, could be put out of view if necessary. I doubt the general public would be looking for anything highly collectable.
I hope to see this soon as I'll be one of the first through the door!
I'm cool with Saturdays being open to the public, as long as it is not more than Saturday. Maybe even give early access to members only on Sat morning, say at 8am, and then let the public in at 10.
Come on... this hobby needs fresh blood. Why? If that is not self-evident, here's a sobering perspective: I spoke with a prominent train auctioneer a couple of days ago. They are getting more inventory than they can handle due to the fact that far too many older enthusiasts are departing the planet at an increasing rate. If this hobby doesn't bring in new, younger people, it will go the way of the Dinosaur.
Dreyfuss Hudson posted:I'm cool with Saturdays being open to the public, as long as it is not more than Saturday. Maybe even give early access to members only on Sat morning, say at 8am, and then let the public in at 10.
From the early information posted in another thread, Friday and Saturdays will be open to the public in the Dealer Halls Only. Thursdays will be the only "Members Only" day.
MartyE posted:Dreyfuss Hudson posted:I'm cool with Saturdays being open to the public, as long as it is not more than Saturday. Maybe even give early access to members only on Sat morning, say at 8am, and then let the public in at 10.
From the early information posted in another thread, Friday and Saturdays will be open to the public in the Dealer Halls Only. Thursdays will be the only "Members Only" day.
That's a drag. Not to add further confusing details to this, but if that's the case, they should make Sat and Sun open to the public, like other public shows. And for the members that can only make it on Sat, they should at least have 2 hours without the public on Sat morning. Opening friday to the public is not a good idea. (In my semi-humble opinion.)
Well thats all well and good but all of this cost $$$ so I guess they need to weigh all the factors of costs to the members and dealers selling as well as the rental on the fairground and security. You can't please everyone. Someone will always be upset.
Santa Fe Mike posted:OK. Now for my thoughts and two cents on this topic. When I joined TCA all those years ago (1994), I have seen changes come over a long period of time. Time moves on, and so we have to move with the same.
While the TCA Meet at York, PA. has been, in my opinion, the Greatest Train Show On The East Coast, it is time for another change or two to occur. After reading all of the responses, MY SUGGESTION, is as follows.
- On Thursday & Friday - The TCA Meet is for TCA Members only. Since we pay a yearly membership fee and also register for the next show while we are at the present show, we should be given priority.
- On Saturday, allow Non-TCA Members admittance to the Major Halls, this being Orange, and any Hall that has a Train Layout up and running. Additionally, keep the start time for 9:00AM, but change the end time to say 4:00PM. This way all attendees have a chance to do last minute shopping and/or for non-members the chance to shop as well and possibly become members.
I understand your feelings, though I think many get the close (symbiotic? incestuous?) Eastern Division and TCA National relationship confused. Meet wise TCA membership only guarantees you the opportunity to register for the National Convention. Division meets can be 100 percent open to the public.
j white posted:I read about 4 pages of the dialog about this proposed change, so I'll apologize if this was covered already. The only real effect this change has to me is that the TCA will provide Eastern with whatever resources they can, which are resources that I would assume will come from member dues. On a similar note, why is the TCA so concerned with York all of the sudden? They never seemed to butt in before.
The National TCA should not be doing anything with members dues towards a Divisions meet. I think that would open a far bigger issue. Meets should be supported by door fees, no dues should be involved. Dues should only be covering administration costs. Taken to the extreme, to do otherwise would mean TCA members dues should cover the cost of the National Convention rather than attendees bearing these costs.
The other thing I wonder about (and this was hinted at a few times) is that what happens if one of the public attendees damages an item? As a TCA member, I believe the TCA is supposed to help you recover costs if I damage your stuff (and choose to not make it right). I think that's why I can usually go through the halls and find a 700e Hudson, and have only seen one other one at a show outside of York. I think the higher end items won't be available for examination prior to purchase; and if that's the case, I may as mail order it.
Not sure about this damage thing at all.
I am not too wild about this plan, but I don't have the experience the people that are proposing it do so this may be another case of me being wrong. I also don't think there will be enough of the public attending to notice, so it's probably much ado about nothing. I absolutely like the idea of including a pass to the TCA museum with whatever ticket they would need to get into the meet (show?)
J White
I'm sure opening the Dealer and Layout halls to the public at York will be fine. Heck, it might even stem the declining membership trend. Don't almost all the TCA Divisions already welcome the public to their meets?
Most dealers will probably remove sensitive items from the tables prior to the public coming in. I know when I used to sell at train shows, I brought totally different merchandise to York and TCA meets than I did to the very large, super impressive, huge public (40,000 in attendance or more) GATS/Greenberg/WGH train shows. The potential dollars per attendee was about 1% of the TCA/TTOS meets and the risk for theft/damage was much higher. I eventually built a multi level wooden rack to display trains on which had a ground level area closed in with plexiglass. Whatever the most expensive items I brought or fragile items would be behind the plexiglass. It provided some protection from soft drinks, coffee and the hands of those who "just wanted to pick it up and see what it feels like to hold".
NJCJOE posted:...Every other person in Pa., and most other states as well, have to charges tax and pay the tax man if they sell something. That's just the way it is. ...
Joe,
If you sell a boxcar to a friend at your train club, do you send in sales tax? The reason for the members-only halls is so that friends could sell to friends without the cumbersome record-keeping and fee-paying that is normally not done with a friend to friend sale. At the local tag sales in yards all over PA, do the sellers send in sales tax? The current system for the member halls seems to be a reasonable way for the PA tax dept to differentiate between business sales and personal transactions.... I'm hoping they leave it alone, and there's no reason they should change it!
As far as the rest,
Sounds good to me as Rich's post has explained.... definitely worth a try.
If the MANUFACTURERS have an issue and don't attend, that's OK with me. I like seeing MTH, LIONEL, and others there, but I'd enjoy York just as much if they weren't there!
If the VENDORS have an issue, that's more important to address!
See you at York!
Ed
Just skim read the postings. Glad to see the ED may want to try something different.
Everything must change and adapt or go obsolete. When was last time you saw a buggy whip? As Rich says few new young members going into the top of funnel, just same people cycling through, for profit businesses lose money for the few if any new buyers/subscribers. At the open public meets you always see youngsters/teenagers/ young adults as well as the grandparents. Cost is low and keeps people coming back.
As for taxes, I have kept records at flea markets, then remit the sales tax (OK I'm weird). It not that hard, write down item and price, total it, take tax, send it in. I will post that tax is included or that I will add tax onto price. How hard is that 
rrman posted:As for taxes, I have kept records at flea markets, then remit the sales tax (OK I'm weird). It not that hard, write down item and price, total it, take tax, send it in. I will post that tax is included or that I will add tax onto price. How hard is that
Have you done that in Pennsylvania and other states, or just in Iowa? (sorry if I am assuming based on your profile, but I mean wherever you are based and/or have done such sales and simplistic tax reporting)
Many members' who have had experience dealing with such issues have had posts with different descriptions of what is involved in each state among the many threads on this topic. It's not a simple thing in many cases.
I'm pretty sure I recall one forum member (who is actually a dealer with his small business, I believe based outside of PA) describe that he has needed to continue to file with the state of PA for each York meet, even though he has not attended to sell his wares for a few years now! He needs to file forms to declare he is not selling if I recall the story properly.
For many small table holder members, it's not worth essentially starting up a small business to sell some trains on a table at York.
Dave45681 posted:rrman posted:As for taxes, I have kept records at flea markets, then remit the sales tax (OK I'm weird). It not that hard, write down item and price, total it, take tax, send it in. I will post that tax is included or that I will add tax onto price. How hard is that
Have you done that in Pennsylvania and other states, or just in Iowa? (sorry if I am assuming based on your profile, but I mean wherever you are based and/or have done such sales and simplistic tax reporting)
Many members' who have had experience dealing with such issues have had posts with different descriptions of what is involved in each state among the many threads on this topic. It's not a simple thing in many cases.
I'm pretty sure I recall one forum member (who is actually a dealer with his small business, I believe based outside of PA) describe that he has needed to continue to file with the state of PA for each York meet, even though he has not attended to sell his wares for a few years now! He needs to file forms to declare he is not selling if I recall the story properly.
For many small table holder members, it's not worth essentially starting up a small business to sell some trains on a table at York.
Hi Dave,
Yep live in Iowa. Basically one page sheet of event name and location, how much did you sell, multiply by local sales tax, write a check. Quite honestly its the honor system as they don't have manpower to check your sales, so you could easily cheat if your conscience allows it. 
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