This won't last long...but, was there any discussion as to who could use which bathrooms? 
I hope that I'm not the typical member of the public in the NorthEast of the U.S. of A. I do belong to the T.C.A. (and its Atlantic Division), but I live more than 100 miles East of York, and think that's too far to travel for a train meet.
I think that opening the dealer's halls to the general public on saturday is a wonderful idea. We need the support of as many people coming into the hobby as we can attract. We need the youth of America to put down their phones and tai up the hobby of trains. and by opening the dealer halls to the general public this might occur. These halls should remain open to a reasonable time in the evening so as to accommodate weekend workers.
So lets all TCA members get behind the idea and help in any way we can.
The attendees of the York meet are there to buy , sell, or trade trains with other members. We are serious buyers not attending to be entertained. The dealers in attendance have members who work for them. The big 4 don't actually sell product to the members there unless they are members of there specific club such as MTH has member offerings at York. I would bet nearly every attendee subscribes to both major publications related to the hobby and are members of multiple local as well as national clubs related to railroading model or scale trains.
Worlds Greatest Hobbies is all about potential buyers and entertainment for children. It is not about reaching existing hobbyists. I have attended a number of the WGH events and seen very few of our members in attendance as well as very few buyers other than those buying Thomas the Tank wooden trains for tots.
These are two very different venues that cannot be compared.
The only way to find out if there are additional people interested in attending York that aren't members is to let them in and track the results. I have attended antique shows where the public pays a $25 early bird fee to beat the regular attendees in to the show, charge them a premium. If the public wants to get the full experience of a member and attend all three days they must join. Just my 2 cents.
Allan Szirony
SD60M posted:This won't last long...but, was there any discussion as to who could use which bathrooms?
Depends!
jerry
again, some of you are pushing the ones you want away,,,, FEE!!,, come on ,,you want a kid to come up with 25 bucks,,,,,,,, a family 30 plus,,,,,,,,you ask for a DONATION,,,,,,to enter, you explain what it supports,,,,,,,and if you belong to a train club, your in,,,,
then again, if you want your,,,fee,, add it into the sale, and have sellers set it, aside, no more than a $1.00 ,,,, and buyer only pays it once,,,,,,,
I gave up my TCA membership because I could only attend the shows on a saturday. we would pack a cooler, leave the house by 8am for the 2 hour drive to york. by noon dealers were already packing up, the huge layouts were packing up, we never went into any of the member halls, we just went to dealers. lionel and mth stopped bringing there huge layout's, kids were disappointed, it took us 4 hours for the round trip drive and if we stayed longer than 3 hours it was because we were looking for something at dealers we saw from lionel, mth, atlas, weaver, or still looking for K-line stuff. Only time will tell.....
I had never visited the meet on Saturday, always coming as a buyer on Thursday and Friday. When I started to work with Vince in the Orange hall I was amazed at the extremely poor Saturday attendance. Being there on Saturday was a waste of time. No sales! If the other dealers business was as bad as ours on Saturday, I can understand the desire and need to bring people in by other means.
Ive never been in a member hall on Saturday, and have no idea what their Saturday crowd or lack of crowd may be.
That being said, those of you who are saving your membership fee and waiting until Saturday to come, think about available inventory on the tables Thursday and Friday compared to Saturday. If you want choice, if you want variety, you'll be there Thursday or Friday!
I too have spoken with members and know there are more more than a handful who come to York with a purpose other than culling and selling off a portion of their personal inventory
Yes, there are those sort of sellers in the member halls. Technically they should be in a dealer hall. But there are also casual sellers.
baltimoretrainworks posted:SD60M posted:This won't last long...but, was there any discussion as to who could use which bathrooms?
Depends!
jerry
I see what you did there Jerry!
jimboylan posted:I hope that I'm not the typical member of the public in the NorthEast of the U.S. of A. I do belong to the T.C.A. (and its Atlantic Division), but I live more than 100 miles East of York, and think that's too far to travel for a train meet.
Just curious, have you ever been to York?
I live around 200 miles West of York and, given no other option, will drive there and back the same day if I have to - which I actually did for my first 3-4 Yorks.
Andy
I think the "casual public" will not drive more than an hour to go to a train show unless perhaps they couple it with other activities. I'm sure others with experiences with other bigger shows could give us more insight to this. I really don't expect the Saturday "Public Day" will make a large impact in the long term but it's certainly worth trying. I hope I'm wrong. I hope also the folks that really want this, don't turn around and complain when they truly cannot start packing up until the meet / show closes on Saturday. It seems at least at the national level folks are working hard to make this happen so the folks in the vendor halls need to work with them to make it work.
The biggest thing that will come out of this is we won't have to endure the endless post York threads about opening it up to the public. This is really going to disrupt our post York fun.
jimboylan posted:I hope that I'm not the typical member of the public in the NorthEast of the U.S. of A. I do belong to the T.C.A. (and its Atlantic Division), but I live more than 100 miles East of York, and think that's too far to travel for a train meet.
I live 100 miles south of York and drive there and back in one day. Leave at 7 or so Friday morning and get back around 9:30/10 Friday night. Long day but I have no problem doing it.
I'm very glad the opening of the dealer halls to the public is going to happen. I also hope Saturday hours are extended - if this is going to work, that needs to be done. I think this will bring more people into the TCA and attract them to York. I only belong to the TCA to go to York but even if just the dealer halls were open to the public, I'll still join and go to be able to get into all halls.
C W Burfle posted:I too have spoken with members and know there are more more than a handful who come to York with a purpose other than culling and selling off a portion of their personal inventory
Yes, there are those sort of sellers in the member halls. Technically they should be in a dealer hall. But there are also casual sellers.
Agreed. And while experienced York attendees can probably spot these tables without thinking too much about it, I still would consider them not the majority of sellers.
I've only held a table (single 6 foot) for 4-5 meets now. I may sell a few items, but no where to the point of "making money". I have not brought either large enough quantity of smaller items nor high ticket items enough to cover my hotel/meals/registration/etc.
It's not about covering my expenses for me. It's about enjoying the meet I love (though from a different perspective - I miss roaming the other member halls - I've missed Silver/Blue entirely the past 2 meets) and seeing friends and maybe picking up a few items for myself. Maybe a few items I no longer desire to keep can find a home with someone else who may enjoy them.
Even from considering the simplest factors, the tax thing gets complicated. Rich states the OGR pricing is structured to include the tax for sales at York. Fair enough, and I can confirm it. When I bought the GLA 12 DVD, it was $14.00, not $14.84 ($14 + 6% PA tax). OGR does the math and submits the tax based on their discount to make the tax they submit work out (presumably the pre-tax cost is $13.21 to work out to that $14 total, so the state gets $0.79 of our $14). Many other dealers do the same.
Of course there is the comparison of how it goes if you order the DVD via non-York means. Until the government works out the pesky crossing state lines tax issue, most people (except for those from the state OGR is based) wouldn't pay tax on their purchase via the transaction with OGR anyway. Of course, many states probably have a line item on their yearly tax form that you are supposed to report such transactions so your state can collect the tax on such purchases you make. We can guess how many do so (not specific to trains/York/etc).
The trading/bartering thing takes a toll here as well. While some dealers make offers that you can get discounts if you buy multiple items, depending on the item (used train vs. new commodity item like tools, scenery, DVD, books, etc), it can be less common to have the "will you take ...?" discussion.
I don't walk into OGR and ask if they will take $10 for the $14 DVD, and I suspect most here don't either. But there are people walking around the meet who have this idea that "I never pay what the tag says", no matter how decently priced an item on a table may be to begin with. I suspect this is more prevalent in the member halls, but maybe these folks also do this to the dealers and OGR, I don't know since I don't work at those tables.
I am pretty sure of the probably less than 10 things I sold at this meet (like I said, I am not in business here) I probably ended up reducing each item by at least $5 for most items priced less than $50 (some as low as $25 "ticketed") I can imagine the hilarity that would ensue if I then had to say I will add 6% tax to the total for these customers.
If it ever comes to the needing a tax number to sell a few items in the member halls, I will just say I enjoyed my few meets as a seller and move on. I'll still attend York as a buyer if it continues nearly in the form it's in today, but if many other member table holders drop out if they end up needing a tax number to sell a few items, I may stop attending too if it just becomes another Greenberg Show.
If the Dealer halls remain open longer (and the early packing is non-existent - the public likely won't "accept" that aspect as normal when they pay to get in) than the member halls on Saturday, I'll even stick around to shop with the public once the member hours are over, since it's harder to walk around when holding a table. For me, my short 2 hour drive makes little difference if I do it in early afternoon or more towards the evening on Saturday.
-Dave
Let's assume that this all goes through. I think it probably will.
I wonder how the character of the Orange hall will change. I can think of several vendors who I see both at public shows and at York. They bring different merchandise to each show, which is aimed at the expected audience. Will they start bringing their "public show" stuff to York instead of the stuff aimed at serious operators and collectors?
Everybody loves a sale. Will they hold back on their discounts, in the hopes that the hoards of non-member attendees will buy up their stuff?
And how about those vendors who specialize in rare and unique items? Will they be comfortable putting out this stuff where the general public can poke, prod, and touch? (In theory, members and their guest know better)
Thank goodness they are not talking about opening the member halls to the public.
We have overlooked one thing the purple hall is also a dealer hall they would want to be open as well I believe that the cost of tables in the dealer halls will increase due to the expense on making the show longer and cost to open to the public. The cost of tables have been lower then shows like Greenberg and so on. Most likely the member hall prices will stay the same and the price of tables in the orange and purple halls will increase
Is Penn the only state out there that allows the sales tax exemption for sales to members of a club?
I can see, by some comments of more experienced York attendees, that I know little about the inner workings of the York meets. I will say that driving 100 miles to a train meet isn't likely to happen again. I've been to two York meets. The first was the East Coast large Scale Train Meet in 2010, the second was this past York meet. It's just too far to drive when I have other train meets much closer to home. For me, there is just too much merchandise, which clouds my judgement.
MartyE posted:baltimoretrainworks posted:SD60M posted:This won't last long...but, was there any discussion as to who could use which bathrooms?
Depends!
jerry
I see what you did there Jerry!
I didn't miss it either. 
MartyE posted:I think the "casual public" will not drive more than an hour to go to a train show unless perhaps they couple it with other activities. I'm sure others with experiences with other bigger shows could give us more insight to this. I really don't expect the Saturday "Public Day" will make a large impact in the long term but it's certainly worth trying. I hope I'm wrong. I hope also the folks that really want this, don't turn around and complain when they truly cannot start packing up until the meet / show closes on Saturday. It seems at least at the national level folks are working hard to make this happen so the folks in the vendor halls need to work with them to make it work.
The biggest thing that will come out of this is we won't have to endure the endless post York threads about opening it up to the public. This is really going to disrupt our post York fun.
I believe you are right there are to many local shows that the "casual public" will attend I have seen it first hand, the weekend after York there is the great scale show in Timonium Maryland and they have plenty of O scale to sell, And I know there are many more shows within just a few min form people
While I was lucky working, that I got the vacation time that would let me attend York on those days that were not the weekend days that many working stiffs only have available for the trip to York. (one poster on here has several times mentioned that he gets teeth marks in his leg from an employer who demands his presence 24/7. He needs another job, but you can get trapped in retirement plans) The public that attends WGH or other open shows on Saturday AND SUNDAY are not taking time off from work to show up Thursday or Friday. They won't for York, either. Saturday and Sunday days for York, with Sunday that "open to the public day", would seem to me to be the day that would replace dead Saturdays in this test of how many herds of buyers you can entice out of the short radius around York. As one who detested "Blue Laws" in a state where I had to drive across the river into another state to auto parts stores to keep some heap running to show up Monday morning, I have never understood the dates of York. I know Pa. does not have those Blue Laws for I have seen other shows on the York FG on Sundays, when I have driven through. However, the big car shows at Hershey and Carlisle nearby in Pa. practice that "reserved for retirees" policy, too. What the....?
fl9turbo2 posted:We have overlooked one thing the purple hall is also a dealer hall they would want to be open as well I believe that the cost of tables in the dealer halls will increase due to the expense on making the show longer and cost to open to the public. The cost of tables have been lower then shows like Greenberg and so on. Most likely the member hall prices will stay the same and the price of tables in the orange and purple halls will increase
Why are you so concerned about costs? It seems as though that's your biggest hang-up with this whole thing. How about they try it to see if it works.
Whatever the slight cost change may be, it's worth it! There's nothing like YORK!!!!
Stu
NOT LionelLLC posted:fl9turbo2 posted:We have overlooked one thing the purple hall is also a dealer hall they would want to be open as well I believe that the cost of tables in the dealer halls will increase due to the expense on making the show longer and cost to open to the public. The cost of tables have been lower then shows like Greenberg and so on. Most likely the member hall prices will stay the same and the price of tables in the orange and purple halls will increase
Why are you so concerned about costs? It seems as though that's your biggest hang-up with this whole thing. How about they try it to see if it works.
Whatever the slight cost change may be, it's worth it! There's nothing like YORK!!!!
Stu
Because I have sat in the board meetings with ED I know how much money is spent on running this meet, I know the division is not cash rich it has to spend what money it has wisely, I feel that you all see the outside appearance we see the inner workings and the struggle to keep the event as lean as possible. If we go to the members and say everyone has to pay more to accommodate the orange and purple hall then you will have a full scale revolt on your hands, And members will say why should I pay more for someone else to make money
Ah yes, the Blue Laws. I remember them un-fondly. I also recall that in Levittown, hanging wash out, mowing your lawn, washing your car, etc, etc, could not be done on Sunday. That was the Post-war "Let's Play House" world. In the real world, not every woman wears high heels and pearls to clean house. Although some men might.....LOL
What has this to do with York, nothing, it's just that reading some of the posts here have reminded me of such things.
Its not that I don't want change to happen for the meet I just see everyone asking ED to do all the work and only Rich and OGR to offer there help, Were is MTH, Lionel and the others with there ideas on how they can help to get these ideas off the ground, Why should it be the ED to do everything
fl9turbo2 posted:Because I have sat in the board meetings with ED I know how much money is spent on running this meet, I know the division is not cash rich it has to spend what money it has wisely, I feel that you all see the outside appearance we see the inner workings and the struggle to keep the event as lean as possible. If we go to the members and say everyone has to pay more to accommodate the orange and purple hall then you will have a full scale revolt on your hands, And members will say why should I pay more for someone else to make money
OK. I too have seen the York Meet budget/balance sheet, so I'm familiar with what you say. Yes, fiscal responsibility is a good plan.
I still feel that the additional income will offset the additional expenses, so it'll be a wash.
Stu
I believe you are right there are to many local shows that the "casual public" will attend I have seen it first hand, the weekend after York there is the great scale show in Timonium Maryland and they have plenty of O scale to sell,
I also attended the Timonium show on Sat. and found it to be sparsely attended. Layouts were moved to various areas to cover for less tables, aisles were wider and attendance seemed much less than usual. Nowhere near the amount of O and S that is found in York. Seemed like a larger version of a Greenberg show.
Were is MTH, Lionel and the others with there ideas on how they can help to get these ideas off the ground, Why should it be the ED to do everything
I'd like to know what these companies do to support the TCA in general.
I know some of them have donated trains for display to the TCA museum, but isn't that just serving their own interests? (advertising)
NOT LionelLLC posted:fl9turbo2 posted:Because I have sat in the board meetings with ED I know how much money is spent on running this meet, I know the division is not cash rich it has to spend what money it has wisely, I feel that you all see the outside appearance we see the inner workings and the struggle to keep the event as lean as possible. If we go to the members and say everyone has to pay more to accommodate the orange and purple hall then you will have a full scale revolt on your hands, And members will say why should I pay more for someone else to make money
OK. I too have seen the York Meet budget/balance sheet, so I'm familiar with what you say. Yes, fiscal responsibility is a good plan.
I still feel that the additional income will offset the additional expenses, so it'll be a wash.
Stu
But you can only guess at this point true you have to because until people come to the meet you wont know. I am just saying is that everyone needs to understand if this does not produce then the ED will have to recoup the funds from some were
C W Burfle posted:Were is MTH, Lionel and the others with there ideas on how they can help to get these ideas off the ground, Why should it be the ED to do everything
I'd like to know what these companies do to support the TCA in general.
I know some of them have donated trains for display to the TCA museum, but isn't that just serving their own interests? (advertising)
you are right they do not support TCA in general but they can strong arm the ED in to getting what they want and I feel that's wrong its a member driven organization and it should be the members who decide the direction of the ED and the York meet not several manufactures who use the event to advertise
you are right they do not support TCA in general but they can strong arm the ED in to getting what they want and I feel that's wrong its a member driven organization and it should be the members who decide the direction of the ED and the York meet not several manufactures who use the event to advertise
I have been an Eastern Division member for over thirty years. I do not recall ever being polled about anything related to the York show.
I think restrooms will be decided by gauge! Train gauge I mean!! LOL
I see this as a bit more complex issue. Like it or not the demographic for the TCA membership is aging. It is unclear if their membership is in decline due to this but it is something to consider. As the membership ages, their mobility declines and I suspect the York attendance will also decline. The vendors need some return on their investment. The current membership may think they provide that but if the major vendors do not feel they are receiving sufficient bang for their buck there is no point is making the effort to display. Now I am not a member for two reasons, despite several inquiries here and in other locations, no one is able to clearly articulate the benefits of membership and the cost of membership just to attend a single swap meet is just too high. I get it, some of you have been in this organization for a long time and are invested in its success but the organization does a terrible job explaining its purpose. I am unwilling to spend dollars supporting them for what I see as little benefit. Member organizations are in decline, be it a professional organization, a fraternal organization or something like the TCA. They all have to adjust their strategy when it comes to retaining members and reaching out to new members. This is probably not the first adjustment for this meeting or for the organization. Change is needed, what that change is is something to be determined. These events are expensive to run and the TCA has to balance the registration fees with the members and vendors expectations. There is a need to partner with the major players so that both the TCA and those players receive a benefit from the meet. Some of the members will feel badly that the meeting is changing. Unfortunately that change is inevitable. This generation has a very different view of model railroading and railroading in general. We relate to an item that was the premier Christmas gift that provided action when there was little competition. This generation has a wealth of choices and a diverse means of obtaining those choices. I wish the TCA good luck, I hope they weather this storm and look forward to visiting on the public day if that comes about. If I were at their Board I would emphasize there needs to be a membership goal of some kind in which new members are engaged AND retained. Whatever reasonable actions the TCA must take to meet that goal should be considered.
Now I am not a member for two reasons, despite several inquiries here and in other locations, no one is able to clearly articulate the benefits of membership and the cost of membership just to attend a single swap meet is just too high.
Here is what the TCA touts as the benefits of being a TCA member.
Why do we go through this after every York meet. If the public wants to come in to the meet, let them join. Easy as that. I don't ever want the public to attend York.
eddie g posted:Why do we go through this after every York meet. If the public wants to come in to the meet, let them join. Easy as that. I don't ever want the public to attend York.
Very True
It is nice that members and non members can express their opinions in this forum.
Some points to remember,
The members of the Eastern Division of the TCA or its officers will be the ones making decisions regarding this matter.
The toy train market is shrinking due to attrition because of the age of the hobbyists and the lack of interest in the hobby from the younger population.
The toy train manufacturers keep producing more of the same boxcars and engines with updated electronics without regard to the amount of trains in the marketplace already .
The number of new and old trains in the marketplace far exceeds the demand for these trains.
An adjustment in the marketplace is inevitable and it has been taking place through the decline in the number of local hobby shops.
necrails posted:I see this as a bit more complex issue. Like it or not the demographic for the TCA membership is aging. It is unclear if their membership is in decline due to this but it is something to consider. As the membership ages, their mobility declines and I suspect the York attendance will also decline. The vendors need some return on their investment. The current membership may think they provide that but if the major vendors do not feel they are receiving sufficient bang for their buck there is no point is making the effort to display. Now I am not a member for two reasons, despite several inquiries here and in other locations, no one is able to clearly articulate the benefits of membership and the cost of membership just to attend a single swap meet is just too high. I get it, some of you have been in this organization for a long time and are invested in its success but the organization does a terrible job explaining its purpose. I am unwilling to spend dollars supporting them for what I see as little benefit. Member organizations are in decline, be it a professional organization, a fraternal organization or something like the TCA. They all have to adjust their strategy when it comes to retaining members and reaching out to new members. This is probably not the first adjustment for this meeting or for the organization. Change is needed, what that change is is something to be determined. These events are expensive to run and the TCA has to balance the registration fees with the members and vendors expectations. There is a need to partner with the major players so that both the TCA and those players receive a benefit from the meet. Some of the members will feel badly that the meeting is changing. Unfortunately that change is inevitable. This generation has a very different view of model railroading and railroading in general. We relate to an item that was the premier Christmas gift that provided action when there was little competition. This generation has a wealth of choices and a diverse means of obtaining those choices. I wish the TCA good luck, I hope they weather this storm and look forward to visiting on the public day if that comes about. If I were at their Board I would emphasize there needs to be a membership goal of some kind in which new members are engaged AND retained. Whatever reasonable actions the TCA must take to meet that goal should be considered.
Very well put, maybe we need is a plan to promote membership and to get out the reason for having the membership, we need to look at improving the benefit of joining
eddie g posted:...I don't ever want the public to attend York.
Whether you know it or not, what you are saying here is that you would rather let the meet die a slow death than do something to change it. That's sad.
please forgive my question in advance as I do not understand what the PA dept of revenue has to do with opening it up to the public. what changes for Cesar
to me the more people sell the more Cesar gets !
