It will be interesting to see whether the Pennsylvania tax department will go for this.
C W Burfle posted:It will be interesting to see whether the Pennsylvania tax department will go for this.
The PA Tax Deportment doesn't have to "go" for anything. Adding the public angle simply puts this show into the "public" category, so sales taxes have to be collected. Just like every other show we vendors do each year.
As I said earlier, the sales tax "boogeyman" is an empty shell. It's not that big a deal.
Thank God that they are not opening the entire event to the public. That would surely be the death of the TCA as droves of members who are in it only for York drop out.
The question that we won't know until it happens is how many of those guys that in the TCA only to go to York will drop out of the TCA and go on Saturday? To be honest I don't know and it is very hard to tell but my guesstimate is that for every person from the Greenberg crowd that joins the TCA eight to ten members who are in it only for York will let their membership lapse.
I for one will not be letting my membership lapse whether I attend York or not.
As someone pointed out above "The Greenberg" crowd is looking for HO and N scale trains and toys and not necessarily O gauge trains. Will they get what they desire at York? To be honest I don't know. Will the ED add train rides in the parking lot and more train oriented displays to appease The Greenberg crowd? Perhaps train races like they do in Allentown? If the ED are going to invite the public they should have available what the public gets at other shows.
Rich Melvin, while I agree with everything you wrote, and as you said this is business for you, if I were in your shoes I would probably not attend York or perhaps as a compromise attend only the October Meet.
Here is another thing to think about, How many people will come all the way to York pa who are not members to go to a meet, Before we open the doors maybe we need to think how many people would come to York I have seen other train shows go there and not survive that were open to the public.
fl9turbo2 posted:OGR Webmaster posted:colorado hirailer posted:...Then, of course, with the show open to non-members, does everybody then get to pay sales tax, and count out the pennies?
We absorb the sales tax, just like we do at every other show we attend. The prices don't change.
This is a non-issue for any serious vendor.
you are one of the few that would do that there are many dealers who would not absorb the sales tax, And don't you think that tax agents wont be looking at the event to make sure sales tax is being collected
not sure you understand the sales tax thing.
I do not have to collect any sales tax, ever.
If I do not charge the buyer I pay the tax out of my profit.
so if I got the item cheep enough it does not hurt.
the tax man NEVER goes without, unless I state NO SALES!
My two cents - open it on Saturday and see if anyone shows up other than TCA members. Take a count and run the numbers versus sales. I would think that you would have to do it at least two, three, times in a row in order to see it it's worthwhile.
I don't sell trains. Therefore, this is just one opinion. However, if I ever do sell trains, I will roll the tax into the price, not to the odd penny, but I mean sell for a dollar price that has the extra 6%, or whatever tax is at that location, built into it. And then I would actually pay the state its tax.
I think it would would really be easy to do business that way, but there are some peculiar individuals in our hobby, both buyers and sellers, and there would certainly be resistance.
OGR Webmaster posted:C W Burfle posted:It will be interesting to see whether the Pennsylvania tax department will go for this.
The PA Tax Deportment doesn't have to "go" for anything. Adding the public angle simply puts this show into the "public" category, so sales taxes have to be collected. Just like every other show we vendors do each year.
As I said earlier, the sales tax "boogeyman" is an empty shell. It's not that big a deal.
I think the sales tax issue is with the member table-holders in the member halls. I believe that the closed-meet status was to protect the member table-holders from having to collect and remit sales taxes. Businesses have always had to collect taxes, closed meet or not, but the deal was for the members. From the member table holders I've talked to since becoming one myself, the sales tax issue is a big deal and would cause a lot of us to stop coming as table-holders.
Andy
I am reading with some amusement about how members will drop out since they can attend as the public with out joining. The only hall mentioned for opening is the Orange hall, seriously is that the only hall you go to at York? Or are these just knee jerk reactions from people who haven't really read the whole thing or just aren't going to be happy unless they can argue about something?
My only suggestion would be to find a location to put the layouts into one building and allow the public into those also, unless they can find room in the Orange hall.
I see this thread getting locked not very far into the future.
Jerry
I for one believe opening the Orange Hall to the public on Saturday is a viable and very needed option. It would provide an influx of possible new people and York's location makes it the center of a big area to draw on. For members it would still allow Thursday and Friday for them. We need more new people to come into this wonderful hobby. Members of the TCA would still have non public time which would be a benefit of being a member of the TCA. Change is hard for some but change has to come in order to sustain the hobby...............Paul
I applaud the move, it will help reinvent and energize the York experience of which I have been apart of for 25 years. Correct me Rich, if I am wrong but when I think of the top of the funnel I think of it as the spenders and at York the layout builders in this hobby are spending serious dollars at York. Look at the displays on Thursday of those selling layout items and then go back on Friday and look at the sold signs or items now missing from those same vendors. To me layout building not collecting is where its at. whether its a 4x8 or 40 x 48 RR. The public show will bring new blood but the price point they spend at will be lower so volume selling is necessary to make a profit for anyone. Amen I shut up now!!!
Reduce the meets to Friday and Saturday only from 9AM to. 4PM.
The April meet would be for non dealers only. No dealers or manufacturers. Friday for members and Saturday for both members and general public.
October for dealers and manufacturers only with the same day and time set up above.
Most likely this would reduce the amount of halls needed saving TCA expenses.
Romiller.
I don't think TCA will agree to a plan that would cost them their $50.00 members. I am still bitter about the $15.00 dollar increase and would drop TCA in a heartbeat without York.
I see no problem with having an all hall open show on Saturday however.
Jim
dk122trains posted:............ when I think of the top of the funnel I think of it as the spenders and at York the layout builders in this hobby are spending serious dollars at York. ...............
Top of the funnel refers to getting the general (not yet fanatics like us! 
) public engaged, I believe.
Bottom of the funnel is the people who've been in the hobby for a while and are deeply involved.
-Dave
IF YOU OPEN IT • THEY WILL COME...............
Click on map to enlarge.
Gary
Attachments
Gary, you know that some people will think you're serious...
The PA Tax Deportment doesn't have to "go" for anything. Adding the public angle simply puts this show into the "public" category, so sales taxes have to be collected. Just like every other show we vendors do each year.
You are ignoring the issue.
In the world of York, there is a difference between vendors and member table holders.
If member table holders are required to register with the State of Pennsylvania, post a bond, and file/pay sales tax on their stuff, then a lot of member table holders will drop out and that's the end of York as far as I am concerned. I don't think I am alone. I understand that those focused on the dealer halls won't care.
Oh well.
CW the hope is the member halls will be unaffected. The only change will be with the the Orange Hall and its vendors on Saturday. It will be like a meet within a meet.
Pete
Yes, there is a difference between vendors and member table holders. However, everyone in the ORANGE HALL is a vendor. That is the ONLY HALL that is planned to be opened to the public. NOTHING CHANGES for the member halls. They are still member-only.
As an aside, we have never posted a bond to the State of PA for our sales tax reports. After the show we run a report out of our POS system, calculate the tax and write the check. The whole process takes about 5 minutes. For any serious vendor, the sales tax issue is a non-issue.
For any serious vendor, the sales tax issue is a non-issue.
LOL, that is exactly the point. I don't go to York to deal with serious vendors. I want to deal with fellow collectors, who are just looking to unload some extra stuff. (Yes, there really are some folks in that category there)
I hope the PA tax department goes for the show change, and allows the member halls to be considered a private event that doesn't require taxes to be collected. I leave my thoughts at that.
C W Burfle posted:LOL, that is exactly the point. I don't go to York to deal with serious vendors. I want to deal with fellow collectors...
And you will STILL be able to do that...in the MEMBER HALLS.
C W Burfle posted:For any serious vendor, the sales tax issue is a non-issue.
LOL, that is exactly the point. I don't go to York to deal with serious vendors. I want to deal with fellow collectors, who are just looking to unload some extra stuff. (Yes, there really are some folks in that category there)
Collateral damage CW. Tough being in the bottom of the funnel. I'm there too.
First it's Saturday then... oh well it's only 50 bucks. I just got used to the added space in the parking lots and isles. Not to mention taking pictures.
And you will STILL be able to do that...in the MEMBER HALLS.
The concern is that those casual sellers won't be willing to do the paperwork to get a table. I have my NYS tax number and that is enough of a bother. I would not get one for Pennsylvania. I know that I am not alone on this.
Until the Eastern Division folks meet with the PA tax folks, we won't know.
It's not clear to me whether they will open the Orange hall to the public on Saturday regardless of the tax implications to member table holders. I guess we'll have to see what happens.
The world hasn't ended yet.
woojr posted:Tough being in the bottom of the funnel. I'm there too.
Just so there is no misunderstanding about my use of the "funnel" analogy...
There is nothing negative implied about, "...being in the bottom of the funnel..."
This funnel analogy was actually conceived by Jerry Calabrese when he headed Lionel. His use of a funnel in this context was to make the point that we have to keep putting new people into the top of the funnel in order to replace those that drop out the bottom for various reasons. People drop out the bottom for a lot of reasons, including age, loss of interest, health issues and even death.
I'm right there at the bottom of the funnel, too. 
Is there any way to see the entire secret memo without the edits ?
I know this won't happen in time for October and if the dealers think that it would that's wishful thinking this will be a slow process look at how long it took to take puctures and use cell phones so we will see
The secret memo? You've got to be kidding me. What is secret about it? The meat of the matter is posted here for the public to see isn't it? What else are you expecting to see?
I included the pertinent paragraphs from Wayne's letter in the original post. For the purposes of this discussion, that's all that needs to be here.
fl9turbo2 posted:Rich the problem with that is if I was in the member halls selling I would be upset I would not have access to the public that's money out of my pocket potential sales then you will have many members who would want a slice of that pie then you have a total snowball affect
Then those members are in the TCA for the wrong reasons.
Does anyone think the Orange hall will need a little revamping? I read and posted on several threads on this topic and the answer always seems to be "open it to the public". The public will be expecting a show, like they see and hear about at the other public train shows. I'm married and have two small children, The Orange hall in its current state is not an ideal family destination .
The three memos between the Eastern Div and the PA Dept of Revenue were included in an article in one of the TCA Quarterly magazines during 2013.
The article was titled "Crisis at York" and reproduced the 1985 memo agreements between ED-TCA and the Revenuers. If I recall the PA Govenor was even involved. According to the article, I believe that Clem Clement has revisited the agreement with PA and was warned to not change anything.
Whether those agreements can be renegotiated must be considered and has to be an important part of this discussion. Time will tell.
I don't see what all the hoopla is all about. I for one will still go to York, York will still be York!!! If you want to deal only with members, go to the members hall if your only there on a Saturday. Thursday and Friday you can go to all the halls if you don't like being around the "public" for whatever reason. I like York just the way it is and really don't want to see it change, but if the sellers are having problems with their finance's and we DO NEED new blood ( Aka. top of funnel, people lol) in O gauge than whatever it takes to get it done & keep the meet going ,I'm ok with. Been a TCA member since '99 and will still be one even if this takes affect. I don't think it's really going to make a big difference in sales since I feel all your going to get is more local people just out for an afternoon with the children but I'm sure you will get some new members and sales out of this. I think I'ts a great idea for the exposure and should be given a chance. Personally I'd rather see it stay the same but we do need a shot in the arm for lack of a better term all around. Just that I know vendors will tack on that 6% and prices will be a little higher but that's how competition starts and we the members win in that game so, on with the changes!!!
With mention above concerning the dwindling down of the early week open shows, and the subject of sales tax, maybe this was a coincidence, but I was visiting the "Billy Budd" when some local government (township?) uniformed tax collector went through the first time. That show started its dwindling six months thereafter. And for those of us who remember them ten+ years ago.................this and the others are disappointing.
Andy Hummell posted:OGR Webmaster posted:C W Burfle posted:It will be interesting to see whether the Pennsylvania tax department will go for this.
The PA Tax Deportment doesn't have to "go" for anything. Adding the public angle simply puts this show into the "public" category, so sales taxes have to be collected. Just like every other show we vendors do each year.
As I said earlier, the sales tax "boogeyman" is an empty shell. It's not that big a deal.
I think the sales tax issue is with the member table-holders in the member halls. I believe that the closed-meet status was to protect the member table-holders from having to collect and remit sales taxes. Businesses have always had to collect taxes, closed meet or not, but the deal was for the members. From the member table holders I've talked to since becoming one myself, the sales tax issue is a big deal and would cause a lot of us to stop coming as table-holders.
Andy
I don't know you personally, Andy, so my comments on members reluctance or inability to pay PA state sales tax is not directed towards you. I don't know which members you've spoken with or in which member halls, but I too have spoken with members and know there are more more than a handful who come to York with a purpose other than culling and selling off a portion of their personal inventory. There are those in the member halls who are actively in the business of selling trains either full time or part time. A few have brick and mortar hobby shops while some others maintain an online web store, and then there are those "members" who throughout the year regularly set up at either flea markets or i"open to the public" train show venues in PA and neighboring states including those sponsored by local TCA divisions. By PA law, sellers at all those venues are obligated to pay sales tax on the income those venues generate for them.
While this proposed change to York by the Eastern Division TCA won't require these "members" to pay sales tax, even if it did, for those individuals I've noted it would just be like those other places I cited where they sell which requires them to report earned revenue and pay tax on it.
baltimoretrainworks posted:I am reading with some amusement about how members will drop out since they can attend as the public with out joining. The only hall mentioned for opening is the Orange hall, seriously is that the only hall you go to at York? Or are these just knee jerk reactions from people who haven't really read the whole thing or just aren't going to be happy unless they can argue about something?
My only suggestion would be to find a location to put the layouts into one building and allow the public into those also, unless they can find room in the Orange hall.
I see this thread getting locked not very far into the future.
Jerry
Jerry, I hope you're right and I'm wrong. I hope that a lot of guys don't drop out and go only on Saturday to the Orange Hall. I do spend the bulk of my time in the Orange Hall. I may be in the minority but I am not alone in that regard. My buddy who comes with me also spends the bulk of his time in the Orange Hall and he is a 3 railer. LOL, I have to drag him to the member halls. Being a scale guy I do like to breeze through the other Halls because you never know what you are going to find. This past York I found a Weaver caboose that I had been trying to find for many years and it was only $20! I think it was the White Hall. Another thing (at least for me is) there is no way I am driving 3 hours to the meet only to be limited to one building.
I want the TCA to be successful. I honestly don't think letting the public into the Orange Hall is going to make a huge difference financially for the TCA but hey if the TCA/ED wants to try it out I say go for it. Sure they make some money due to admissions and it will promote the hobby but I don't see big $$$$ going into the vendors pockets from the public.
All I want is for the TCA to be financially secure and to keep this event going for as long as possible. At least they are trying something and IMHO it is better to try something and fail than to try nothing and fail.
---All opinion.
The "York Experience" is a whole lot more than just one day, and one hall. For all the bemoaning of the decline of this hobby, I would think there would be almost universal acceptance of any new ideas to grow the hobby.
Good job TCA ED, see you 10/2017. Wish I could have been there this year.
Isn't it time for the Eastern Division to open up photography at York? I see photos and videos posted on Facebook from TitleTown Train Show and Trainfest. It might be hard to build up public awareness of there are no past photos or videos of what the show is like.
Gilly@N&W posted:The "York Experience" is a whole lot more than just one day, and one hall. For all the bemoaning of the decline of this hobby, I would think there would be almost universal acceptance of any new ideas to grow the hobby.
Good job TCA ED, see you 10/2017. Wish I could have been there this year.
Well stated Gilly!!! I could not agree more!
They could sweeten the deal for the public, by including the museum fee as well. This way you'll get people to see the TCA museum and potentially get hooked after seeing all of those wonderful trains.
David Patrick Bolin posted:Isn't it time for the Eastern Division to open up photography at York? I see photos and videos posted on Facebook from TitleTown Train Show and Trainfest. It might be hard to build up public awareness of there are no past photos or videos of what the show is like.
The photography ban was lifted a couple of years ago.
I applaud the receptiveness of the ED to explore making changes to help make the York meets more attractive for vendors, members and now for the public. Especially gratifying is seeing the cooperation between the major players involved in York to help expand the value of the meet to everyone.
Unfortunately, as with any change it is likely that there will be some members or vendors who will not benefit from this change. Hopefully that number is very small and that the benefits of the change far and away outnumber any negatives.
Ed
