Bill_R posted:

please forgive my question in advance as I do not understand what the PA dept of revenue has to do with opening it up to the public.  what changes  for Cesar

to me the more people sell the more Cesar gets  !

Currently member halls do not report sales and collect sales tax, only the vendor halls.  The EDTCA has an agreement with the PA tax folks to keep it that way as long as it's a member's only meet.  There is a possibility, once open to the public even if in the vendor halls, like the government usually does, they'll see untapped revenue in the member halls as well and make all collect sales tax and report earnings.  In other works some fear that if you shake the bee hive, you might get stung.

We'll have to wait and see what comes of this.

November 1970 I went to a METCA train meet as a guest. Since I wanted to attend the next show, I joined the TCA effective January 1971. I nave been a TCA member ever since. If the Eastern Division opened the show to the general public I believe that will lead to the end of the TCA. Why should I pay $50 a year dues? The TCA has a finical problem, because the TCA museum is losing money. Was there ever a membership vote on having a museum? if the TCA wants to open a TCA train meet, the members should vote on it. Every issue of the TCA headquarters news have several TCA divisions and chapters train meets listed that are open to the general public. If you attend one of these meets and want to go again you do not have to join the TCA. The TCA is losing members, opening the York show to the general public will only accelerate to loss of members. 

OGR Webmaster posted:

eddie g posted:

...I don't ever want the public to attend York.

Whether you know it or not, what you are saying here is that you would rather let the meet die a slow death than do something to change it. That's sad.

Amen!!! 

The ED Will need the wisdom of Solomon to come up with a solution to this issue, but, as you suggest, it is a clear case of change or die.  From the info you shared yesterday, it seems to me that ED is trying to have days (and halls) for members only while giving the public an opportunity to see some of what York is all about. A good start I think.

Currently member halls do not report sales and collect sales tax, only the vendor halls.  The EDTCA has an agreement with the PA tax folks to keep it that way as long as it's a member's only meet.  There is a possibility, once open to the public even if in the vendor halls, like the government usually does, they'll see untapped revenue in the member halls as well and make all collect sales tax and report earnings.

Each member table holder would need to register with the PA tax department, fill out forms, and submit tax payments. All for one or two shows a year.
Its no big deal if you are not the one who has to do it. Imagine if you had to do the same to attend.

IMHO, this is an experiment worth trying.

But, I would suggest adding the Dealer Purple Hall to the Saturday public entry.

Also, grouping operating layouts into the Black Hall open to Saturday public entry would be an attraction.

Tony

Up on "The D & H Bridge Line"

The Black Hall should not be an impediment as is technically part of the restaurant next door. The restaurant offers it for the show. The catch will be the club(s) displaying in there. Do they want to delay packing up until the evening? Some incentive would in order here.

Pete

This is the following statement from several of the vendors in the Orange Hall, "If the eastern division doesn't do something soon this show will die"

I was surprised by the low attendance on Thursday and Friday this past show. You could move around without running into people.

 

Each member table holder would need to register with the PA tax department, fill out forms, and submit tax payments. All for one or two shows a year.
Its no big deal if you are not the one who has to do it. Imagine if you had to do the same to attend.

I guess I don't understand what is so onerous about this?  My wife's passion is scrapbooking, and she loves to make cards and photo albums.  She sometimes sells her wares at local craft shows here in Maryland.  She pays for a table, the state of Maryland sends her a very simple form to fill out for occasional sales, at the end of the show she counts up the money in her till and sends the state a check for 6% of the money she takes in.  Pretty simple process.  Is the PA process any more difficult?

I am not a TCA member, as I don't personally see $50 a year benefits to me to become a member (this is just my opinion of my situation).  I live in central Maryland and York is approximately a 2 hour drive each way.  When my daughter was little, we often made a day trip out of shopping the outlets in nearby Lancaster.  I'm pretty much a lone wolf in the hobby, squeezing an hour here or there to do train related stuff.  I would spend $35 ($20 gas and $15 entrance fee) to browse the dealer hall on  a Saturday afternoon.  Having to pay an additional $50 for a TCA membership, or $85 total, to spend an afternoon in the dealer hall is just to much money, as that is $85 I could just put towards an internet purchase.

Jim

jd-train posted:

............. I would spend $35 ($20 gas and $15 entrance fee) to browse the dealer hall on  a Saturday afternoon.  Having to pay an additional $50 for a TCA membership, or $85 total, to spend an afternoon in the dealer hall is just to much money, as that is $85 I could just put towards an internet purchase.

Jim

And the shipping costs associated with such purchases (I realize some dealers may have free shipping, but not all, and certainly not for small orders)

And just for technical "benefit vs cost" accuracy, you should divide the $50 by 2, since you can attend 2 meets for your $50.  Obviously your gas and entrance fee is counted each meet you attend.

Having train friends is a plus Jim. When I started going to York it was 3-4 of us sharing gas and room expenses. Forget the $50 dollar TCA fee. Not needed the for the first visit. Some local chapters rent a bus and do a one day down and back day on Friday. You owe it to yourself to check it out at least once. In a few years it may not exist.

Pete

OGR Webmaster posted:

eddie g posted:

...I don't ever want the public to attend York.

Whether you know it or not, what you are saying here is that you would rather let the meet die a slow death than do something to change it. That's sad.

I mentioned this in the other thread, and perhaps it bears repeating here too... 

We need to remember that there are folks who would be more than happy if York "reverted back" to a swap meet if push came to shove.  Think of it this way... These folks view the vendors as "guests" in what is primarily a buy/swap event (in their minds) among the general TCA membership.  Vendors threatening not to attend future shows means nothing to them.  In fact, some may welcome that.  Even if only 1,000 folks attend and dealer halls disappear, they're OK with that.

That's obviously extreme, and I certainly don't agree with that position.  The most I'll say is that's not very forward-thinking towards the betterment of the hobby's future.  But I understand there are folks around who do feel this way, and that's certainly their prerogative.  Just  saying...  It isn't sad/good or wrong/right.  It just is what it is.  

David

I guess I don't understand what is so onerous about this?  My wife's passion is scrapbooking, and she loves to make cards and photo albums.  She sometimes sells her wares at local craft shows here in Maryland.  She pays for a table, the state of Maryland sends her a very simple form to fill out for occasional sales, at the end of the show she counts up the money in her till and sends the state a check for 6% of the money she takes in.  Pretty simple process.  Is the PA process any more difficult?

I have a New York State tax number. I do the same here in NY. No interest in doing more paperwork to sell a few items at a show in Pennsylvania once or twice a year. It just isn't worthwhile.
Does your wife do shows in neighboring states?

I'm a TCA member in the NETCA Area, my drive is 6-7 hours to York. I think opening it to the public on Staurdays is a great idea as long as dealers aren't packing it up at noon time.

With a young family I can not go down on a Thursday. The Amherst train show is very successful and we take the kids there. Maybe the TCA/ York needs to expand this to Sunday and hold it one time; April. Include; layouts, workshops, showcase the latest technology etc. 

Here's a chance to turn York into a showcase event for all and maybe gain some new TCA members. 

Jameszz posted:

Does anyone think the Orange hall will need a little revamping? ....

It needs more arrows.

Mallard4468 posted:

It needs more arrows.

ROTFL! 

(That's Rolling On The Floor Laughing for those of you in Rio Linda.)

Public or no public, it will not affect my enjoyment of the York Meet.  But I still wonder where this "public" will come from.  Most of the die hard O gauge train buying people are already there.  Even with more advertising how many more "new public" would attend?  And what happens when the "public" shows up at the Orange Hall only to see vendors packing up by 12 noon?

And imagine their surprise, when John and Mary Public, bringing little Suzy and Bobby Public to the Meet and stroll into a manufacturer's booth and see that cute little 0-4-0 steam engine for…..$600 !!!!!?????  How many of the "new public" will actually spend dollars?

If it ends up working I'm all for it, but I think in addition to advertising they will need to keep the Meet open on Saturday until late afternoon at least.  And not be packing up before it's over.

I have been to York many times and now, since moving to Colorado, I attend the Denver TCA twice-a-year meet.  The Denver show is open to the public and is extremely well run and attended.  They cater very much to young folks who love it.  I agree that York will eventually die unless it becomes an open show like Denver.

Traindiesel posted:

...How many of the "new public" will actually spend dollars?

You're missing the point. This whole issue is not about selling products to the public.

It's about putting new people into the top of the funnel...sowing seeds for the future of the hobby.

Traindiesel posted:

Public or no public, it will not affect my enjoyment of the York Meet.  But I still wonder where this "public" will come from.  Most of the die hard O gauge train buying people are already there.  Even with more advertising how many more "new public" would attend?  And what happens when the "public" shows up at the Orange Hall only to see vendors packing up by 12 noon?

And imagine their surprise, when John and Mary Public, bringing little Suzy and Bobby Public to the Meet and stroll into a manufacturer's booth and see that cute little 0-4-0 steam engine for…..$600 !!!!!?????  How many of the "new public" will actually spend dollars?

If it ends up working I'm all for it, but I think in addition to advertising they will need to keep the Meet open on Saturday until late afternoon at least.  And not be packing up before it's over.

Well said Brian. No different from public train shows in my area; Amherst or Greenbergs, the $500 HO Athern Big Boy or the $1700 Lionel Vision engine. Look but don't touch.

On a more serious note, York currently caters to the bottom of the funnel according to Jerry C's funnel theory.

The big question is would York improve if they targeted those slightly above the bottom.  - My feeling is yes.

From a business perspective, there are likely large number of hobbyists who have money to spend but are not that serious that are willing to take a day off for the show. Almost every hobby group recognizes this and that is why most hobby shows on weekends. I would suspect that there are several thousand potential York attendees who live within a 2-3 hour drive who would attend Saturday IF the show was all day Saturday. (say 9:30 to 5:00)

For the TCA member who is liquidating his/her (or someone else's) collection, having more potential buyers should be a good thing.

The tax issue is a real one. Vendors (even individuals) at the BigE show must have a tax number and pay tax on their sales, although, except possibly for a commercial vendor, all prices are quoted including tax. The person who stubbornly does not sell because he/she must collect tax is most likely the same person as the hobby shop owner who has inventory in the back room for his friends that the general hobbyists cannot buy.

Maybe time has come for vendor halls  and layouts all-day Friday and Saturday open to the public on Saturday and TCA only halls on Friday (to satisfy those members who want to swap a few trains).

For similar reasons, it might be useful to have the DCS User Group and the Legacy User Group meet on Saturday.

Only my 2-cents worth,

Lad

 The person who stubbornly does not sell because he/she must collect tax is most likely the same person as the hobby shop owner who has inventory in the back room for his friends that the general hobbyists cannot buy.

I think you are confusing members who just want to sell some excess with business people.

By the way, it is true that there are (or were) some hobby shops that held merchandise for preferred customers. Why is it a poor business practice?

So, how many people will be happy to have to pay an extra 6-10 percent to cover sales tax?

baltimoretrainworks posted:

If they can make it work it should bring in the "Greenberg type crowd" for a lack of a better phrase...

What does that mean?  I don't belong to a club and may be excited to be a member of a recognized group without having to pay dues, unless it carries a derogatory connotation.

What, me worry?

Traindiesel posted:

Public or no public, it will not affect my enjoyment of the York Meet.  But I still wonder where this "public" will come from.  Most of the die hard O gauge train buying people are already there.  Even with more advertising how many more "new public" would attend?  And what happens when the "public" shows up at the Orange Hall only to see vendors packing up by 12 noon?

And imagine their surprise, when John and Mary Public, bringing little Suzy and Bobby Public to the Meet and stroll into a manufacturer's booth and see that cute little 0-4-0 steam engine for…..$600 !!!!!?????  How many of the "new public" will actually spend dollars?

If it ends up working I'm all for it, but I think in addition to advertising they will need to keep the Meet open on Saturday until late afternoon at least.  And not be packing up before it's over.

I agree Brian;It won't affect me a bit if the public comes in on Saturday and if it helps getting new blood in the hobby and keeping York in tact then I'm all for it! People like to think they will live forever but the fact is there is a lot of old money walking around at York and when a lot of these folks die off then what??    As far as the venders are concerned they will have to change it up a bit and have RTR sets on hand and maybe some introductory pricing. If the dealers want young blood to join the hobby then they will have to cater to them as well and not just the High rollers.   They also have to commit and stay until 5:00 and not pack up a minute before!  If new people feel uncomfortable like there being rushed out the door that will be a as much of a turn off as a $1000 to $2000 dollar locomotive!  

Lots of worried people on this thread. Change was inevitable. Roll with it

Alfred E Neuman posted:

baltimoretrainworks posted:

If they can make it work it should bring in the "Greenberg type crowd" for a lack of a better phrase...

What does that mean?  I don't belong to a club and may be excited to be a member of a recognized group without having to pay dues, unless it carries a derogatory connotation.

 

What, me worry?

I understand just what Jerry is saying . What are you trying to say ??????

I'm not worried at all. I plan on going regardless if the public is allowed in on Saturday or not and I am sure I will have a good time as always.

Traindiesel, (Brian) I agree with everything you said. York is a decent sized town with a population of over 49,000 people plus there are the small towns surrounding York. I assume the theory is this is where the public will come from. I doubt mom and pop public with small children will coming from more than 30 or 40 minutes away. 

If they do go ahead with this I think it is a no brainier to extend Saturday hours to a full day. 

Seacoast posted:

Well said Brian. No different from public train shows in my area; Amherst or Greenbergs, the $500 HO Athern Big Boy or the $1700 Lionel Vision engine. Look but don't touch.

Have you been to a new car dealer lately? It's the same all over with everything!

OGR Webmaster posted:

Traindiesel posted:

...How many of the "new public" will actually spend dollars?

You're missing the point. This whole issue is not about selling products to the public.

It's about putting new people into the top of the funnel...sowing seeds for the future of the hobby.

OK... Stop the presses right there, Rich.   NOW you've really got me puzzled, since  I know very few Orange Hall dealers who really care about Jerry C's "top of the funnel" Powerpoint presentation.  

Are vendors REALLY suggesting that the mission of York is to fill the top of the funnel?  'Cause I didn't think that was the case at all.  There are plenty of other avenues to help that cause.  I didn't think the goal here was for York to become a Worlds Greatest Hobby on Tour event.  And even if that's the "stealth", underlying motivation by some folks, I could certainly understand why other folks would resist that change.

We hear vendors complaining that their expenses exceed their York sales, and a few have departed the York scene for THAT reason.  And more are reportedly thinking the same.  So how is filling the top of the funnel gonna help vendors make ends meet at York in the short term?    I'd think they might only be more frustrated to see John Q. Public walk by, kick some tires, and not purchase anything... all in return for the extra hours spent manning a booth at York.  Yes?

Personally, I view the "top of the funnel" concept a bit like "boiling the ocean".  It's too un-measurable a task for York (or any show for that matter).  And while I'm all for York evolving with the times, I also think any proposed tweaking of the show needs to have metrics that can be clearly measured in order to determine the success of the show's new format.   Otherwise, we're just changing the show because so-and-so thinks it's the right thing to do.

Do you really think the vendors who are rallying behind all the proposed changes will be happy just to see increased Saturday attendance w/o sales?   Perhaps Lionel, MTH, and Atlas-O might buy into that, since they're not "directly" selling product at the show anyway.  But what about the Charlie Ro's, Nicholas Smith's, Trainworld's, etc... -- not to mention the many other dealers, cottage-industry types, and LHS's who make the trip to York?  If the general public isn't there to "buy", what's the seller's motivation to stay the full day on Saturday?

Worst case scenario... This could be a case of, "Be careful what we ask for, 'cause we just might get it."  And then what?   

Perhaps I'm missing the point too. 

David

Take a look at what happen to this national convention.

A variety of issues has caused this group to go off to a side tracks. The TCA is a lot larger than this group of model railroaders. Two Rail Scale is a small segment but they do have a loyal group of model railroaders. The OGR Link below will give you some more information.

https://ogrforum.com/t...apolis-forum-sponsor

"O" Scale National Convention, as of todays date may become part of the National Model Railroad Association, but this is still up in the fire box. 

The TCA should take a look at some changes to stay off the side track. I know the members and leadership at the TCA will do the right things, with their objectives & goals. Good Luck.

Alfred E Neuman posted:

baltimoretrainworks posted:

If they can make it work it should bring in the "Greenberg type crowd" for a lack of a better phrase...

What does that mean?  I don't belong to a club and may be excited to be a member of a recognized group without having to pay dues, unless it carries a derogatory connotation.

 

What, me worry?

The Greenberg type of crowd I was referring to is the family of 4 who wants to check out the train show at "wherever"  this weekend. You know, mom and dad take the kids out to look at trains, maybe buy one or two things. Maybe grandpa take the grandkids out to see about adding to the train set for this Christmas. People who aren't full blown rabid hobbyist like most of us but still like trains. Most people would know that or figure it out from the context of the post, how do you get that it meant anything derogatory?

Jerry

This has to happen for the show to survive.  Notice what numbers the Eastern Division no longer posts?  Attendance numbers which have been declining for a decade.  But opening York to the public is only half the battle.  

Although I was very much back in the hobby in my late 20s, I had no idea York existed or what the TCA really was.  I read the hobby magazines and any books I could find but York was a word that had no meaning to me.  I have to credit this forum for actually enlightening me back in 2001.  My point is even a person who loves ogauge and is somewhat versed in the hobby might have a hard time discovering York.  Outside of the hobby it is completely unknown.  Inside the hobby it's the best meet many have never heard of.  Opening the meet to the public must happen if the meet is to survive.  If Saturday is the day then it should be open till at least 5pm.  

But all of this is for nothing if there is no advertising.  For this to be successful the meet has to be advertised like crazy.  Even the TCA Museum has nothing advertising York even when it's York week.  They have the open house but that is filled with TCA members who are already there for York.  If I asked any member of the public what York is after visiting the museum they still wouldn't know.  I know the museums mission is not to necessarily promote York but I have to ask why not promote it?  

Most members view York as the biggest and best thing about being a TCA member yet the museum does nothing to advertise this.  York has been cited by many members as the main reason they belong and continue to belong.  So the most cited reason people join and continue in the TCA has been completely ignored.  I joined at the museum in 2001 and York was not even mentioned to me by anyone I spoke to.  

Go ahead and open it to the public....great idea.  But for God's sake, put some time and effort into advertising or the public won't know to come.  And do it soon before the big four and everyone else pulls out of the meet.  Business is business and when going to York becomes more of a losing proposition business will go elsewhere.  No one can afford to waste money in this crazy economy.  Does anyone think any of the big four would loose a single sale or make less money if they skipped York?  Probably not.  Don't let this happen cause it will if the meet continues on its current path.  I support this and honestly think the whole thing should be open.  

BigRail

baltimoretrainworks posted:

Alfred E Neuman posted:

baltimoretrainworks posted:

If they can make it work it should bring in the "Greenberg type crowd" for a lack of a better phrase...

What does that mean?  I don't belong to a club and may be excited to be a member of a recognized group without having to pay dues, unless it carries a derogatory connotation.

 

The Greenberg type of crowd I was referring to is the family of 4 who wants to check out the train show at "wherever"  this weekend. You know, mom and dad take the kids out to look at trains, maybe buy one or two things. Maybe grandpa take the grandkids out to see about adding to the train set for this Christmas. People who aren't full blown rabid hobbyist like most of us but still like trains. Most people would know that or figure it out from the context of the post, how do you get that it meant anything derogatory?

Thanks for the effort to clarify.  Had no idea what was meant so left open the possibility it was derogatory.  Originally thought the reference may be related to the Greenberg  guides, which frequently are disparaged on the forum, but now see you must have been referring to the Greenberg shows.  Didn't make the connection due to the geographic concentration of the shows that excludes my neck of the woods.  Out of sight, out of mind.   

What, me worry?

The manufacturer's should just send a rep for the special interest meetings with a few samples of new product. The bottom of the funnel certainly spreads the news. There is no "public" market to draw from in the area. Harrisburg - really?  The manufacturers have dealers (TCA members) to show product.

WGH - Greenberg has learned to have shows in or near major metropolitan markets. They still don't have any manufacturer displays.

Eastern TCA should thank them for attending over the years and tell them to make the best decisions for their business. If they decide that they can ignore the market segment at this meet, then so be it.

It is my understanding that this meet was never intended to attract new hobbyists. Eastern TCA does not need to expose themselves to the costs, risk and management of a public event. It is one best events for O gauge hobbyists in the US. It will stay that way even if the manufacturers are absent.

I certainly hope that the Eastern TCA division stays the course and maintains a non-public status.

Moonman posted:

  The manufacturers have dealers (TCA members) to show product.

Eastern TCA should thank them for attending over the years and tell them to make the best decisions for their business. 

It is my understanding that this meet was never intended to attract new hobbyists.

It's not about attracting new people, it's about the sustained viability of the event. Less people means less interest on the part of vendors and manufacturers to attend which makes the event less interesting for the attendees which leads to even less people attending and so forth and so on...a vicious circle.  You really don't want to blow off the Big 4, they are a pretty important draw at York, most attendees will hit their displays to see what's new and kibbitz with the reps. The dealers can only show what the manufacturers have in stock not what is in the pipeline to be made so they really can't show the upcoming products just what is already available.

Jerry

I did go to a Greenberg show in Wilmington, Del. in Mar., 2014 where there were "manufacturer displays", Lionel, Williams, Bachman, etc.  Of course, these may really have just been booths that they paid for.

Since there seem to be multiple Dealers' Halls at York, maybe some can allow public admissions, stay open all day Saturday, and charge accordingly for space.  Other Dealers' Halls could admit Members Only at the current prices and early closing time.  Would the occupants of the Dealers' Halls that are open to the Public  be willing to pay enough to allow free admission on Saturday?

Do the manufacturers who want Public attendance want to sell directly to the Public at the Show?  If they only want to exhibit to the Public, and there are to be no sales in that Hall, there may be no Sales Tax problem, and less loss of dues paying members.

Moonman posted:

The manufacturer's should just send a rep for the special interest meetings with a few samples of new product. The bottom of the funnel certainly spreads the news. There is no "public" market to draw from in the area. Harrisburg - really?  The manufacturers have dealers (TCA members) to show product.

WGH - Greenberg has learned to have shows in or near major metropolitan markets. They still don't have any manufacturer displays.

Eastern TCA should thank them for attending over the years and tell them to make the best decisions for their business. If they decide that they can ignore the market segment at this meet, then so be it.

It is my understanding that this meet was never intended to attract new hobbyists. Eastern TCA does not need to expose themselves to the costs, risk and management of a public event. It is one best events for O gauge hobbyists in the US. It will stay that way even if the manufacturers are absent.

I certainly hope that the Eastern TCA division stays the course and maintains a non-public status.

 

could not say it any better

To me the bottom line on promoting a product is visibility.  Just look at what is advertised on TV, Cars and Drugs take up a disproportionate time of advertising minutes.  So they sell products !   If hobby manufacturers want to sell products and help broaden the client base, then advertising is the key.  Not that it must be on TV where every fifteen seconds cost millions, but at local events like train meets.  To me, it seems that these manufacturers should bear the cost of promoting the hobby by spending more on the fees that it cost to be at a show.  Thus some of the admission fees would go away or be greatly reduced.  

Think of it this way, why would I want to pay to go into a store and buy something ?   

Sure, the final cost of advertising would probably be passed to the consumer.  What makes you think that it isn't done with automobiles and drugs ?   

You really don't want to blow off the Big 4, they are a pretty important draw at York, most attendees will hit their displays to see what's new and kibbitz with the reps.

Are they? Probably among the majority of folks participating here. Maybe not to the attending TCA membership as a whole. My friends and I don't even give their displays a first glance. I don't think there are any statistics one way or the other.

I'm all for the Big 4 attending, and never have had a problem with the existence of the Dealer Halls, but for me, and many other attendees, it's not what the show is about. (I've found some good stuff in the dealer halls)

It's interesting that we are all assuming that opening the show to the public is a done deal. Maybe it is. But there are still important issues to work out, such as:

Will the member halls remain tax free?
How will opening the dealer halls affect insurance requirements / costs?
How will the Eastern Division and the TCA promote the show to the public?
(as was discussed in another thread and probably here too, relying on word of mouth probably isn't the best way to go).

Even with admitting the public to the dealer halls on Saturday, I think the Eastern Division should strongly consider eliminating Thursday, and go to a Friday 9 to 5, Saturday 9 to 3 show. Or maybe even a Saturday - Sunday show.

The Big 4 don't sell anything. 

Jameszz posted:

The Big 4 don't sell anything. 

James, please read some of the early posts in this thread.

This is not about SELLING, it is about meeting new people and sowing seeds for the future of this hobby.