Leaving some of Us Behind - Curve Radius Inflation

Doesn't MTH make a railking ES44AC that goes around o-31 curves?

But if you won't buy it because its not in an orange box...

Martin H posted:

Doesn't MTH make a railking ES44AC that goes around o-31 curves?

But if you won't buy it because its not in an orange box...

My comments are of a general nature not necessarily directed at any one manufacturer. Yes MTH has a Railking ES44 in their 2015 vol. II catalog for 031 curves.

I am not going to get into one Manufacturer over another here. They all make some fine looking products. Just putting these thoughts out for general consumption.

MTH has the Railking Line and Lionel has the Lionmaster Line designed to accomodate  the traditional size curves.

Mikey

I bet they are producing what sells - they are in business, not hobby.  I also suspect that right now you can buy more and better stuff for O-27 than at any time in the past, if that is what you want.

I'm sorry Greenrail, but I never liked the look of diesels with "swinging" (truck-mounted) pilots.  They're just not realistic.  Perhaps this design was a necessity in postwar days, but as diesels got longer and the "gap" between the frame and the pilots got higher, O gauge modern diesels were starting to look like caricatures of their prototypes.  

Frankly I hope the design continues to evolve, perhaps to a large central motor as common in other scales.

The good news for you is that there is PLENTY of product already out there, including a few contemporary models like Lionel's SD70M.  As Lionel and other manufacturers continue to release diesels with fixed pilots for wide-radius track, you'll be able to acquire these older models at an excellent price.

The RK Imperial ES44's are very nice - I have a couple of them that I run consisted with RK Imperial SD70ACe's, which are also quite nice.   As long as you don't run them with Premier engines, they still convey the "massiveness" associated with the engine.   I can run Premier diesels and have a couple of them, and they do look fabulous, but I run them single headed because they tend to just look to overpowering consisted together.      

I feel your pain to an extent - I'm currently limited to O-60 curves, which rules out a lot of the larger Premier-class steamers and a couple of the REALLY big diesels. Actually, one of my favorite engines, the UP Turbine (in any guise) is off limits for me.  Bummer, but it is what it is.  My solution for steam is to run ALL RK Imperial steam;  I find the level of detail to be acceptable and the price point even more so.   I don't lose any of the operational features in DCS, and I'm able to mix up a pretty nice layout full of trains that all look proportional.   

For me, it's a trade-off:  I could run O-72 and open up my layout to all the big stuff, but I would lose some of the features and operational functionality I enjoy.   Overall I think MTH has done a better job than Lionel of keeping the curve requirements down, at least on it's larger diesels.   A Premier ES44ac is rated for O-42 curves, as are most others (if not O-36).  It's the price we pay for realism; that seems to be what most people demand.   Lionel's pilot design is slick, but it has the downside of increasing the curve size.  

The other option is HO - you can run fixed-pilot scale models all day on O-36 sized curves... but that would be blasphemy 

I feel your pain. For me, being a traditional size guy, I am reaping the benefits of folks getting rid of their smaller stuff. I am finding bargains galore, even on nice, clean,  Postwar stuff. Used is new to me!

My purchases are restricted to the Railking and Lionmaster lines because of the radius limitations.  I really appreciate that the Imperial and Lionmaster have nice detail and most of the electronics of their big brothers.

I've been out of the hobby for 15 years and was initially disappointed of the modern radius requirements of many new engines.  But after some research,  I was pleased that this segment of the  market hasn't been abandoned, and the continued release of new options.

My Christmas present was a Railking NS Heritage ES44AC.  I knew of concerns about accuracy issues on some of the details.  But,  at a clearance price of $250 from a forum sponsor,  I got most of the features of the Premier version and was very satisfied.  Next on my wish list is that new Lionmaster N&W class A.

Even Lionchief has some nice options.  That new FT option looks interesting.  Splurge for the extra B unit to go with the 2 A units,  you get 2 power units and 3 units with smoke.  

Plus, it's nice to be able to use my 15 yr old traditional size rolling stock.   

I get the same feeling when I look at a catalog only to see PRR, NYC, ATSF, UP, and D&RGW items offered, only difference is I could (if I wanted) still run them, name of RR makes no difference to the track (only to me).

With all the stuff I see at train shows I don't think you'll have any problem getting something that'll go round your curves, but it may not be new or as up-to-date as you would like.

I just wonder, realistically, how many in the O gauge hobby have room for the larger curves.  From what I've heard and read over the years (hardly scientific), they're in a minority.  But at the same time, the manufacturers wouldn't be making this stuff if it didn't sell.  

I guess if there's a positive side, it's that the preference for scale products has brought down the prices of most traditional items...

mlavender480 posted:

I just wonder, realistically, how many in the O gauge hobby have room for the larger curves.  From what I've heard and read over the years (hardly scientific), they're in a minority.  But at the same time, the manufacturers wouldn't be making this stuff if it didn't sell.  

I guess if there's a positive side, it's that the preference for scale products has brought down the prices of most traditional items...

Why does it have to be an either/or?  Why can't Lionel and others make some items for the scale(or large radius) folks and some stuff for the o-31 guys.  

Oh wait.. they do!!  

It's almost like the OP is saying that he wants Lionel to only make stuff for him.

Still plenty of O31 stuff out there steam and diesel......

Todays Trainworld ad had plenty of  O31 stuff.

Want scale.......you must go with big radii....

pretty simple. 

Martin H posted:

mlavender480 posted:

I just wonder, realistically, how many in the O gauge hobby have room for the larger curves.  From what I've heard and read over the years (hardly scientific), they're in a minority.  But at the same time, the manufacturers wouldn't be making this stuff if it didn't sell.  

I guess if there's a positive side, it's that the preference for scale products has brought down the prices of most traditional items...

Why does it have to be an either/or?  Why can't Lionel and others make some items for the scale(or large radius) folks and some stuff for the o-31 guys.  

Oh wait.. they do!!  

It's almost like the OP is saying that he wants Lionel to only make stuff for him.

 

They make both, however, the "focus" seems to be on the high-end stuff recently.  I think that's what he's saying.  I didn't see anyone wanting product "only for" them...

I can see where folks who don't have room must "make do", but I would hope they look into layouts that aren't on a 4x8 sheet of plywood, that'll definitely limit your choices.

Split those 4x8 sheets in two and put 2x8 sections around the wall of the same room.  You have an easier reach, and more room for larger radius curves.  If you use screws to mount them to the walls you can always remove them and plaster up the holes.  For door access, make a lift-up or drop-down section.

Here's my current layout in a 12x12 room with a 2 foot extension down the left side.  It's very simple yet gives me hours of playtime!  The mainline is 072, the inner track is 072, and the industrial sidings are 054:

My biggest engine is a Williams brass 4-8-4 N&W J and I run 21" passenger cars.

True 1/48 scale locomotives and rolling stock should require wider curves, otherwise they will look funny going around an O-36 curve.

I run O-63's and O-72's primarily with my tightest curve at O-54 and widest at O-81. My track plan meets the minimum curve requirement for a Lionel 86' auto parts boxcar and 89' auto rack but I refuse to the buy them because they would look silly on anything less than an O-81 in my opinion.

My Atlas 60' auto parts box cars are my largest pieces of rolling stock and I wouldn't go any bigger except for motive power (SD40's are 65').

Also, if I remember correctly, a representative from Lionel (could've been Mike Reagan) said at York in October that upon testing the newly-tooled SD40's were able to negotiate an O-36 curve.

That's all splendid, Bob and Catnap, but all's I have for layout room is a 4x10 area in the garage.  Due to the fact that FasTrack sucks for noise I have limited myself to O-31 and O-42 tube track.  Lucky for me I am blessed by the fact that all modeling is representational.  Even if your model is correct down to the last fart of the engineer it is only a 1:48 representation of the real thing.  Swinging pilots don't bother me like they should airline passengers.  I'm happy just to be able to have a layout to play with my trains.

Pete

When I first built my new 12'x12' layout with tubular track I put in 031 curves on all 5 loops. Then I bought a used Lionel  751 Zephyr set so I was just able to squeeze in 072 curves to run that but I finally put in 054 and 042 curves on the inside loops. Initially I wanted as much straight track as I could get but that was a mistake. I like the wider curves. If I had the room and a big layout I would go with somewhat wider curves.  Seems model RRs emphasize wide curves but the PRR didn't. A NS MOW guy was telling me how the PRR liked to run straights(or tangents) then put in a tight curve. There are several examples here in the western Pa. area that I have seen while railfanning. I guess it depends what you are modeling plus space and $$. Putting in my 072s cost me $100.

The AEM-7 is a relative short electric.  I can see at first a high end item with a coupling system not attached to the pilot.  But after that, how about an O-31/36 model?  This could be a high train set motor, and something a child would see on the East Coast.

And how about an F40?  Not the RK one.  A scale F40 with a "swing" couple could run on tight curves.

But noet the mission creep here.  Now the smallest radius has gone from 31 to 36!

I was thinking the same thing the other day I missed out on some nice engines because of the minimum curve. this year I like the fact of lionmaster diesels with 031 minimum curve .  most of my layout is union pacific and they are offering 4 this year I like the chessie steam special and that is offered but not in a curve I have so I miss out again on it. good thing MTH had it in ps 2.0 and 3.0 Lionel had it in lion chief+ last year but I want the bigger engine maybe a lionmaster t1 to run.

This one of the reasons I decided to tear down my layout and rebuild.  The largest diameter I have space for is O54 but that is fine as I can't afford the large steamers which require O72.

-Greg

MTH has quite a few Premier diesels in the 2015 catalogs that are listed as O-31 curves. The largest requirement I remember seeing was O-42. I have an MTH ES44AC from the 2013 v1 catalog that is O-42. Also, as others have said the MTH RailKing line are O-31 rated as well. Their RK Imperial line is also very nice and pretty well detailed with a very attractive price. If you are not a die hard Lionel fan, the MTH offerings are well worth a look. I am not at all familiar with the Lionel Lionmaster line, but I believe that is similar (size and curve wise) to the MTH Railking line?

I have some Lionel diesels, but I'm not as familiar with their line as they make very few items in my chosen road name. I have many more MTH diesels because of this. However, I do like both manufacturer's products and have both a DCS and Legacy system to operate each respective type. I also have O-54 minimum curves so I don't pay real lose attention to the minimums required, but I don't remember ever seeing a diesel that requires more than O-54?

I wouldn't get your nose too far out of joint. Just wait and watch. You will see many of those 86 foot scale length boxcars and 21" actual length passenger cars up for sale. Ever see those MTH Schnabels or 33k tank cars by Atlas, why do people sell them? Cuz they are too long for most reasonably sized layouts in O gauge. The items were bought, and then when reality set in, up for sale they go.

I looooove the look of the MTH Little Joe, but it isn't the PS/2 or /3 that scares me away, its the minimum O72.

I pawed thru the latest Lionel 2016 catalog and kept on saying, too long, too long, pass, pass.

Vote with your dollars, it gets their attention the best.

Martin H posted:

mlavender480 posted:

I just wonder, realistically, how many in the O gauge hobby have room for the larger curves.  From what I've heard and read over the years (hardly scientific), they're in a minority.  But at the same time, the manufacturers wouldn't be making this stuff if it didn't sell.  

I guess if there's a positive side, it's that the preference for scale products has brought down the prices of most traditional items...

Why does it have to be an either/or?  Why can't Lionel and others make some items for the scale(or large radius) folks and some stuff for the o-31 guys.  

Oh wait.. they do!!  

It's almost like the OP is saying that he wants Lionel to only make stuff for him.

 

Hardly saying anything of the sort. All I am saying is that the Manufacturers are somewhat moving away from folks like me who like all the fancy bells and whistles of the newer technologies, and can't run those locomotives on the layouts to which we are limited.

I am not simple minded or selfish enough to be that greedy, to ever believe any manufacturer would use my view as an exclusive product plan.

illinoiscentral posted:

I wouldn't get your nose too far out of joint. Just wait and watch. You will see many of those 86 foot scale length boxcars and 21" actual length passenger cars up for sale. Ever see those MTH Schnabels or 33k tank cars by Atlas, why do people sell them? Cuz they are too long for most reasonably sized layouts in O gauge. The items were bought, and then when reality set in, up for sale they go.

I looooove the look of the MTH Little Joe, but it isn't the PS/2 or /3 that scares me away, its the minimum O72.

I pawed thru the latest Lionel 2016 catalog and kept on saying, too long, too long, pass, pass.

Vote with your dollars, it gets their attention the best.

Michael

you get the gist from where I am coming here. Yes, there are tons of 21 Inch passenger cars and oversized freight cars that just won't work on many layouts and can be had on the various auction and sale sites for  fairly low prices.

Like you said, we "Vote with our Dollars."  And so it is.

GREENRAIL posted:

Hardly saying anything of the sort. All I am saying is that the Manufacturers are somewhat moving away from folks like me who like all the fancy bells and whistles of the newer technologies, and can't run those locomotives on the layouts to which we are limited.

I am not simple minded or selfish enough to be that greedy, to ever believe any manufacturer would use my view as an exclusive product plan.

Putting top of the line electronics into non-scale locos causes a problem for Lionel.  Invariably, people expect these to be cheaper than the scale versions with legacy, for example, but they cost the mfr just as much to produce as the non-scale high-tech stuff.

This is the problem with the 3-rail market.  There are too many factions of collectors/modelers.  One group wants toylike and cheap, the next group wants prototypical and fancy, but with compressed dimensions for tighter curves.  Group number three wants full-scale and command electronics. There is no way Lionel can appeal to even two of those groups with a single product.

GREENRAIL posted:

Michael

you get the gist from where I am coming here. Yes, there are tons of 21 Inch passenger cars and oversized freight cars that just won't work on many layouts and can be had on the various auction and sale sites for  fairly low prices.

Like you said, we "Vote with our Dollars."  And so it is.

I  completely disagree with this.  The k-line cars sell for more than MSRP on the resale market to this day.  You won't find any used 86' Lionel auto racks for any sizeable discount on ebay completed auctions.   You won't find 21" passenger cars from any manufacturer for sale on ebay at discounted prices 

Sure some stuff can be found for low prices, but there is much more non-scale/small prototype stuff that can also be found for very low prices on the secondhand market.  Husky stack cars are pretty big and pretty much mostly go for MSRP or better on ebay, even when used.  The atlas 25,500 tank cars don't go for much less than 85% of original price on ebay either.  Anybody out there see any bargains on the Lionel 86ft box cars lately?

I do see the point here, if you are looking for the latest and greatest in the electronics package.  It seems many of the high end locomotives with all the bells and (smoking) whistles are the scale offerings that folks with tight curves can't run.  I would love to see a renewed LionMaster line offering all the features of the full size versions, designed to run on tighter curves.  

That said I think most of this is a perception issue, where the high end products have just gotten much better over time both in electronics and in terms of scale design, leaving the more traditional sized engines fairly far behind.  I'm unsure, but it seems that MTH offers the same electronics in every product they sell, which is nice, so you can expect similar features in a railking started set as in their higher end offerings.  For Lionel, the tight curve market is being filled with LionChief Plus engines, it seems.  These do have the issue with control system compatibility, but other than that, they offer pretty nice detail in a tight-curve friendly package.  

I suppose it comes down to what is the best business for the manufactures, and I'm sure they have discussed this quite a bit internally.  I agree with whoever it was above that said it may not be good business to put the high end stuff in a non-scale engine because folks are expecting those high end engines to be scale these days.  As with most products in O gauge I suspect that manufacturing costs have little to do with the retail price, but instead that it is simply that the target market for these engines is the scale crowd.  It also seems to me that the majority of toy-train layout guys are not really as interested in the fancy features and electronics, so smaller engines are selling just fine without them.  Perhaps that will change over time, but I think we will see a new control system on the market before all the features get into the smaller engines.  

All this said, I'm happy with what I run, Conventional, TMCC1, and Lionchief, and every engine I own says O31 or O27 on the box, even my 2-6-6-6 Alleghenies, though many are much happier on O42.  I think there is room in the market for LionMaster type engines that have all the features of their larger cousins, but in a semi-scale size, but folks with a lot more time pushing pencils will have to make the decision and see if there is enough of a market.  If there is, I'm sure we will see such products on the market.  For that reason, it's a good idea to bring up a discussion and see just how many people are sized out of higher end products.  

JGL

Right now, if I buy a steam engine, it's MTH Imperial for the 031curves, all my diesels are MTH premieres with 042 curves. When I finally get "the" layout my biggest curves will be 054 and I can live very happily within those parameters! And I won't feel left out! Honest!!

GREENRAIL posted:

Martin H posted:

mlavender480 posted:

I just wonder, realistically, how many in the O gauge hobby have room for the larger curves.  From what I've heard and read over the years (hardly scientific), they're in a minority.  But at the same time, the manufacturers wouldn't be making this stuff if it didn't sell.  

I guess if there's a positive side, it's that the preference for scale products has brought down the prices of most traditional items...

Why does it have to be an either/or?  Why can't Lionel and others make some items for the scale(or large radius) folks and some stuff for the o-31 guys.  

Oh wait.. they do!!  

It's almost like the OP is saying that he wants Lionel to only make stuff for him.

 

Hardly saying anything of the sort. All I am saying is that the Manufacturers are somewhat moving away from folks like me who like all the fancy bells and whistles of the newer technologies, and can't run those locomotives on the layouts to which we are limited.

I am not simple minded or selfish enough to be that greedy, to ever believe any manufacturer would use my view as an exclusive product plan.

Manufacturers are hardly moving away from folks like you .....theres plenty of m t h   railking and Lionel  traditional lionmaster 027 stuff for the little baby layout guys..... hell, it took us 30 years to get scale size trains made..... btw ,theres more folks with larger radius curves than you think, they are just not on this forum...jim

I understand the frustration.   I don't even have a layout currently but a carpet central with an 072 and 060 loop.   I don't think your being left behind.  Mth certainly has more offerings for the small radius guys than Lionel at least as far as I can tell.  But I think the battle between the manufactures has brought as some incredible models and sometimes I think we forget our track systems certainly haven't changed much compared to locos and rolling stock.  But I think the fact the 21 inch passenger cars is a nice win for the small radius folks.   And I honestly I love all trains.   Never seen one I didn't like.   But it's hard for me to imagine running an es44 on 036 or even 042.  I'm not very prototypical but that's pushing it for me.   I do hope they continue to build stuff that works for you folks.

Jim Berger posted:

GREENRAIL posted:

Martin H posted:

mlavender480 posted:

I just wonder, realistically, how many in the O gauge hobby have room for the larger curves.  From what I've heard and read over the years (hardly scientific), they're in a minority.  But at the same time, the manufacturers wouldn't be making this stuff if it didn't sell.  

I guess if there's a positive side, it's that the preference for scale products has brought down the prices of most traditional items...

Why does it have to be an either/or?  Why can't Lionel and others make some items for the scale(or large radius) folks and some stuff for the o-31 guys.  

Oh wait.. they do!!  

It's almost like the OP is saying that he wants Lionel to only make stuff for him.

 

Hardly saying anything of the sort. All I am saying is that the Manufacturers are somewhat moving away from folks like me who like all the fancy bells and whistles of the newer technologies, and can't run those locomotives on the layouts to which we are limited.

I am not simple minded or selfish enough to be that greedy, to ever believe any manufacturer would use my view as an exclusive product plan.

Manufacturers are hardly moving away from folks like you .....theres plenty of m t h   railking and Lionel  traditional lionmaster 027 stuff for the little baby layout guys..... hell, it took us 30 years to get scale size trains made..... btw ,theres more folks with larger radius curves than you think, they are just not on this forum...jim

There are more "little baby layout guys", as you so eloquently put it, that are not on this forum as well.  Check your condescending attitude at the door.  

Yanno, folks, I posted this in the HiRail forum for a reason. I won't do battle with those who are Scale Purists. They have their wishes and needs, and that's just fine and dandy. I purposely have kept my comments as broad as possible to reflect my personal feelings and observations.

I agree lets keep the somewhat snarky comments out of this. Sorry, if that offends some, but heck, all I am doing here is promoting some discussion that may raise some awareness of a segment of the Hobby. That's all.

Personally, I don't care if some of these larger locomotives look odd to some running on tighter curves. We are playing with Toy Trains here, nothing more, nothing less (regardless of which segment of the hobby one enjoys).

Martin H posted:

This is the problem with the 3-rail market.  There are too many factions of collectors/modelers.  One group wants toylike and cheap, the next group wants prototypical and fancy, but with compressed dimensions for tighter curves.  Group number three wants full-scale and command electronics. There is no way Lionel can appeal to even two of those groups with a single product.

You forgot my group:  the ones who want scale dimensions but are indifferent to the sophistication of the electronics.

Too many of the posters here are also forgetting that scale and smaller curves are not necessarily incompatible IF you are willing to accept smaller prototypes.  I have four scale steam engines--2-8-2 (x2), 4-6-0, and 4-8-2--and all handle 042 quite well; two of them (at least, maybe all four) can do 036.

Can't say about the diesels as I only have a couple of 027 diesels for nostalgia's sake.  Of course, they all have fixed pilots and do 027 curves   But, if I wanted scale diesels, swinging pilots wouldn't bother me if it allowed them to make my 054 and 045 curves.

Greenrail and others:

I feel your pain.  It would be great if it were different, but evolution of product/techniques/etc, moves on, whether we want (or need) it to or not.

I've faced the same thing returning to HO after several years of not being very active within that scale. Things have changed so much.  I'm now in the process of upgrading my older engines that I built years ago so as to be compatible in the new DCC world of HO, as well as other adjustments.

It would be great if things could just stand pat within our personal "happy space", but alas, it just doesn't do that for us.

Hopefully you'll figure out a path that will be best for you and you'll have many more decades of enjoyment within the hobby.

thestumper posted:

 

The other option is HO - you can run fixed-pilot scale models all day on O-36 sized curves... but that would be blasphemy 

Hi Folks,  This just isn't true.  Most HO folks abandoned O-36 curves long ago except for some very cheap starter sets.  It seems that many of us forget that O-36 is an 18 inch radius curve.  O-31 is a 15 1/2 inch radius curve.  These curves are much too sharp for reliable operation of most HO equipment with body mounted couplers.  Nearly all new HO equipment comes with body mounted Kadee style couplers.  

I am a member of 3 HO round robin groups that operate on HO home layouts and a HO club.  The minimum radius on the home layouts is 30 inches (O-60).  My HO club's minimum radius is 40 inches (O-80) and most curves are much larger.

The 3-rail O gauge community seems to be the only modeling group that consistently tries to squeeze big engines and cars around curves that are much too tight.  

As I see it, based on what I and my friends are buying, the 3-rail trend is toward operating scale equipment on scale layouts.  These layouts require at least O-72 curves (36 inch radius) to run big steam engines and full length passenger cars.  

I suggest that if you want to run larger equipment than your home layout will allow, consider joining a club or modular group where you can run your larger trains.

NH Joe

Really I think Lionel ought to have two lines of products, like MTH vs. RailKing and Atlas vs. Trainman. It would solve many problems.

I have an Atlas GP9 and a Lionel GP9, both go round 054 curves and both have fixed pilots and Kadee couplers.

most if not all 4-wheel trucked diesels should go round 054 curves.  I also have a Williams and a 3rd Rail E7 with fixed pilots and Kadee couplers, but they will not go on 054 curves, of course these have 6-wheel trucks.

I don't let the fact that there's some engines that can't go around my 072 curves, or look kinda dumb doing so, stop my enjoyment.  There's plenty available (except in the RR of my choice) to choose from.  If not, I have plenty as it is.

Steven Michael posted:

Really I think Lionel ought to have two lines of products, like MTH vs. RailKing and Atlas vs. Trainman. It would solve many problems.

Lionel does have two lines, Legacy and LionChief Plus.  I don't like it, but that's the way they went.  It has been stated before by someone from Lionel that to produce items with O27 ability would cost the same as scale, but no one is willing to pay the same for a scale Big Boy and an O27 Big Boy, so they don't make the smaller stuff.  The recent scale Mikados can run on O36, now if they'd do some Pacifics, Moguls, Prairies, Northerns, and Hudsons that could do O36, I'd be so happy.  But until then I've got my Heavy Mikado, B6sb, Ten Wheeler, Heisler, and Consolidation (When they get here.) to run in the mean time.  I will be hunting down an Atlantic, Light Mikado, Yard Goat, and Shay at some point as they are all O36.  I am also glad to see them releasing LionMaster locomotives again, even if it's just the old TMCC stuff with new Legacy guts.  I plan on ordering a Santa Fe Class A.  I passed on the Challenger as I prefer Big Boys, but I'm sure I'll get one at some point as well.  Yes, most of these are steamers, but that's what I like.  Lionel has seemed to make many over the years for us.  Sure the ration to O36 able vs larger curves is not in our favor, but I don't think we have been left behind.

jstraw124 posted:

My purchases are restricted to the Railking and Lionmaster lines because of the radius limitations.  I really appreciate that the Imperial and Lionmaster have nice detail and most of the electronics of their big brothers.

I've been out of the hobby for 15 years and was initially disappointed of the modern radius requirements of many new engines.  But after some research,  I was pleased that this segment of the  market hasn't been abandoned, and the continued release of new options.

My Christmas present was a Railking NS Heritage ES44AC.  I knew of concerns about accuracy issues on some of the details.  But,  at a clearance price of $250 from a forum sponsor,  I got most of the features of the Premier version and was very satisfied.  Next on my wish list is that new Lionmaster N&W class A.

Even Lionchief has some nice options.  That new FT option looks interesting.  Splurge for the extra B unit to go with the 2 A units,  you get 2 power units and 3 units with smoke.  

Plus, it's nice to be able to use my 15 yr old traditional size rolling stock.   

your quite correct with these comments,im still wondering why this topic was started....Jim