Leaving some of Us Behind - Curve Radius Inflation

mlavender480 posted:

Jim Berger posted:

GREENRAIL posted:

Martin H posted:

mlavender480 posted:

I just wonder, realistically, how many in the O gauge hobby have room for the larger curves.  From what I've heard and read over the years (hardly scientific), they're in a minority.  But at the same time, the manufacturers wouldn't be making this stuff if it didn't sell.  

I guess if there's a positive side, it's that the preference for scale products has brought down the prices of most traditional items...

Why does it have to be an either/or?  Why can't Lionel and others make some items for the scale(or large radius) folks and some stuff for the o-31 guys.  

Oh wait.. they do!!  

It's almost like the OP is saying that he wants Lionel to only make stuff for him.

 

Hardly saying anything of the sort. All I am saying is that the Manufacturers are somewhat moving away from folks like me who like all the fancy bells and whistles of the newer technologies, and can't run those locomotives on the layouts to which we are limited.

I am not simple minded or selfish enough to be that greedy, to ever believe any manufacturer would use my view as an exclusive product plan.

Manufacturers are hardly moving away from folks like you .....theres plenty of m t h   railking and Lionel  traditional lionmaster 027 stuff for the little baby layout guys..... hell, it took us 30 years to get scale size trains made..... btw ,theres more folks with larger radius curves than you think, they are just not on this forum...jim

There are more "little baby layout guys", as you so eloquently put it, that are not on this forum as well.  Check your condescending attitude at the door.  

You can always count on an off-the-wall/rude/condescending/bizarre/flat out appalling comment from that guy! 

I have a 4x8 layout. I'm well aware that I can't run the big stuff (obviously!). I've also made a personal rule, outside of the items on order, that I won't spend over $300-$350 on a train. Could I afford to go higher? Sure could. Do I want to? No, not really. I've got plenty of stuff and I prefer to keep it simple these days. Run conventional, have fun, keep what I have running. I want to still be running the engines I have now in 50 years or more. 

I agree with the original poster's comments although I will say there is some really dynamite stuff out there geared for the smaller layout guys. I've got an MTH Railking ES44 - a really killer engine. I may put it on the layout tomorrow. Looks awesome and runs beautifully. Sounds great. 

Also currently on the layout is a Williams GP30 with their new True Blast Plus sound system. A basic engine overall but the detail rivals MTH and Lionel as does the sound. One of my friends saw it in operation, with full sound, LED lighting, Directional lighting, LED marker lights, etc, etc. He asked if it was an MTH engine. He didn't believe me when I told him it was a Williams until I showed him the Williams stamp in the frame. I will say I've been pretty shocked at some of the MSRP from Williams/Bachmann...of course MSRP isn't the price you (often) pay but yikes...$600 for their new conventional 4-6-2? Sure it includes their new sound system but $600? No thanks. I see some of the big online retailers offering it for about $300-$350, much more reasonable. I paid $225 for the GP30, half of MSRP. I'm also planning to ask my local dealer what the best price for a Williams J 746 is. I'll be riding the 611 again this year, second year in a row, and I'd like J but not at list price. I could probably get an MTH Imperial J for less than the Williams just going off of MSRP. My dealer said he'll check to see what the price margins are. I'd be willing to pay a bit more to support him but yikes, some of the Williams list prices are nuts. Much more reasonable from many dealers and the used market. While I do think the new sound system is a much needed improvement on Williams engines, I hope Bachmann doesn't forget the old Williams concept that they promised not to change - "affordable, durable, basic trains". 

While I do think there is an overall, especially from Lionel, focus on the scale, high end stuff, there is plenty of options for the smaller layouts. Lionel's LC+ stuff is filling a much needed void in Lionel's product line by offering small layout focused products with the "bells and whistles" of some of the bigger stuff. Of course there aren't as many features but hey, what can you do! The MTH Railking stuff is always a good deal. I run some large MTH Railking engines - 2-8-2 steamers, 2-8-8-2 articulateds, Scale Dash-8 diesels, etc. All Railking Imperial products that run well on tight (0-31 and 0-42 in my case) curves. 

Again, some of the new Williams stuff with the new sound system is really dynamite. They also make upgrade kits for older engines so you can easily upgrade to the new sound system. 

Another benefit to club membership - I can watch everybody else's scale Vision/MTH Big Boys, Challengers, etc, etc without paying for them. Sometimes if the engineer needs a pee break, I even get to run it for a few minutes. Good enough for me! 

Jim Berger posted:

jstraw124 posted:

My purchases are restricted to the Railking and Lionmaster lines because of the radius limitations.  I really appreciate that the Imperial and Lionmaster have nice detail and most of the electronics of their big brothers.

I've been out of the hobby for 15 years and was initially disappointed of the modern radius requirements of many new engines.  But after some research,  I was pleased that this segment of the  market hasn't been abandoned, and the continued release of new options.

My Christmas present was a Railking NS Heritage ES44AC.  I knew of concerns about accuracy issues on some of the details.  But,  at a clearance price of $250 from a forum sponsor,  I got most of the features of the Premier version and was very satisfied.  Next on my wish list is that new Lionmaster N&W class A.

Even Lionchief has some nice options.  That new FT option looks interesting.  Splurge for the extra B unit to go with the 2 A units,  you get 2 power units and 3 units with smoke.  

Plus, it's nice to be able to use my 15 yr old traditional size rolling stock.   

your quite correct with these comments,im still wondering why this topic was started....Jim

I started this topic to express my view of the current status of the Hobby and to Hopefully encourage all of the Manufacturers to not let those of us with limited space fade out of the marketplace.

I for one would pay for "Scale" level details and electronics that ran on my layout. On the other hand, I am not a big fan of the Lionchief (+) line. Sorry, it just isn't cutting it as far as I am concerned.

For those that like it that's fine. Its what you like and no quibbles there.

I guess to a certain extent, my expectations of features is pretty high. Honestly, the Legacy System was what attracted me back into the Hobby after being out of it for almost 20 years.

To each their own. Just keep some of us with High expectations on the Radar.

Many of us are thankful that the 'scale' movement is gaining momentum as mentioned earlier. Lionel still tends to use undersized pilot wheels to accomodate the smaller radii and we have to purchase 'correct' sets to look right. Lionel is bringing back the Lionmaster Class A locomotive which is a real beauty. Lots of product out there for tighter curves...

Some railroads have long stretches of straight track.

Find a corridor or hallway that is long and straight. Then the only curves you need are for the tracks coming off of switches.

Andrew

Gentlemen,

    I purchased the Legacy Scale Northern Pacific GP9 this last year, it runs on 036 Track and Switches, in fact she runs on 031 RealTrax.  Now that means that Lionel Engineered a bunch of different GP9 Scale Diesel Engines, that run on 036 FasTrack & even on 031 RealTrax, just in the last couple years.  These engines are definitely in the cost range of most middle income families.  I see no need to worry!

PCRR/Dave

Given that this is a tough and competitive hobby, I actually marvel at the large variety available to all of us, large scale or O27 toy train guy or somewhere in between. 

I got into this hobby in 2000 when I inherited my grandfather's PW collection of 6 O27 sets. I decided to stay with O27, or traditional, if you will. I initially added some modern conventional but after seeing my brother-in-law's scale-sized TMCC, I decided to try command and picked up some traditional-sized TMCC.  That gave me an excuse to load up (and I mean load up) on traditional rolling stock.  I've got 25 engines but stil feel like there are still 100s out there that I'd like but just can't justify adding more (not with 2 in college and 1 heading there next year).

Mind you, I haven't dropped a nickel on the new LC+ technology which further expands the options. Looks like a great option for someone not already committed to TMCC or Legacy.  And, while this may offend some, I own zero MTH engines, so there's that whole other PS2 and PS3 avenue.  Nothing but Lionel and Williams except for K-line semi-scale Hudson with TMCC for me. 

There are raging bargains out there for us.  As an example, I picked up a gently used Williams B&O O27 4-6-4 and had a fellow forum member add ERR cruise, command, and RS to it.  Total about $300 for one impressive traditional-sized engine. Picked up a semi-scale 4-6-2 with TMCC from a forum member for $100.

I love the new scale Empire State Express, but it won't give me 20 times the enjoyment as that 4-6-2 at $100.

Our market segment now has sale prices better than those for gas. Now is a very good time for the traditional-sized O-gauger.

Greenrail, thanks for your post. I think you raise a real issue for the many guys whose layouts necessarily have some curves as small as O31 or O42 but who also are interested in scale engines.

But first, I have to say that I never get the snark that comes so quickly on this otherwise wonderful forum. Your post neutrally raised a fair question, and having people pounce on you just discourages reasonable people from posting.

As for the post, yes, there is tons of Lionel traditional (including LionChief) and MTH Railking stuff that will run on O31, but what I understood Greenrail to be commenting on was the availability of the great scale items we've seen over the last ten years. On that count, the last three Lionel catalogs are revealing. (Btw, this does not mean I care only about Lionel or hate MTH; it just means that many people like Lionel, which we can all agree is an industry leader.)

The newly released Lionel catalog contains a single scale diesel engine that will negotiate less than O54 (the H16-44, which will do O31); the 2015 Vol. 2 has one scale diesel that will negotiate O31 (the GP9) and two huge ones the catalog claims will do O36 (the 19" SD60 and the 17" E7's); and the 2015 Signature Catalog has no scale diesels that will do O31, one normal sized one that will do O36 (the very nice FA2s), and one huge one that does O36 (the 17" PAs). 

In other words, over the last three catalogs, Lionel has listed a total of two scale diesels that will do O31 and one normal-sized scale diesel that will do O36. Pretty slim pickings for those of us who really are looking for scale diesels in the 10"-15" range that can run on a layout that may not have curves bigger than O42 and may even have some portions down to O31.

None of this is to suggest that the Lionel, MTH, and the others cannot and should not put out scale engines that need O54, O72, or bigger. They look amazing, and it's great for you guys who can handle them. But there also are a ton of prototype engines that are under 60' and would make for great models for both the big- and small-layout guys.

So I take Greenrail's point to be that a lot of guys with money to spend on scale engines are being left out, and I agree. Yes, companies presumably make what people will buy, but it is hard to believe that most of the market is guys with layouts with nothing smaller than O54 or even O72 curves. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the reverse is true. 

Greeenrail, thanks for your post.

Chris Dunn

my smallest curve is 031 largest 072 all on the same loop. if I did a 072 only layout in my given space it would be a simple loop and as it has been stated many times a simple loop gets boring. so I had to compromise and go to smaller curves. last year there was a lot of lionel engines I would have liked to buy but they only did 054 min where does 054 come from anyways lionels track fastrack doesn't have 054,  048-060 but that's neither here or there. so last years new purchases were MTH railKing stuff. but I will be honest my preference (opinion) is I like TMCC better haven't tried legacy yet dcs I have it have 5 engines . and honestly they sit and I run the tmcc stuff. but it's my preference not saying anything bad just my preference. this year with the lionmaster stuff it looks like lionel is trying to keep the guys with the smaller curves happy.

Chris Dunn posted:

Greenrail, thanks for your post. I think you raise a real issue for the many guys whose layouts necessarily have some curves as small as O31 or O42 but who also are interested in scale engines.

But first, I have to say that I never get the snark that comes so quickly on this otherwise wonderful forum. Your post neutrally raised a fair question, and having people pounce on you just discourages reasonable people from posting.

As for the post, yes, there is tons of Lionel traditional (including LionChief) and MTH Railking stuff that will run on O31, but what I understood Greenrail to be commenting on was the availability of the great scale items we've seen over the last ten years. On that count, the last three Lionel catalogs are revealing. (Btw, this does not mean I care only about Lionel or hate MTH; it just means that many people like Lionel, which we can all agree is an industry leader.)

The newly released Lionel catalog contains a single scale diesel engine that will negotiate less than O54 (the H16-44, which will do O31); the 2015 Vol. 2 has one scale diesel that will negotiate O31 (the GP9) and two huge ones the catalog claims will do O36 (the 19" SD60 and the 17" E7's); and the 2015 Signature Catalog has no scale diesels that will do O31, one normal sized one that will do O36 (the very nice FA2s), and one huge one that does O36 (the 17" PAs). 

In other words, over the last three catalogs, Lionel has listed a total of two scale diesels that will do O31 and one normal-sized scale diesel that will do O36. Pretty slim pickings for those of us who really are looking for scale diesels in the 10"-15" range that can run on a layout that may not have curves bigger than O42 and may even have some portions down to O31.

None of this is to suggest that the Lionel, MTH, and the others cannot and should not put out scale engines that need O54, O72, or bigger. They look amazing, and it's great for you guys who can handle them. But there also are a ton of prototype engines that are under 60' and would make for great models for both the big- and small-layout guys.

So I take Greenrail's point to be that a lot of guys with money to spend on scale engines are being left out, and I agree. Yes, companies presumably make what people will buy, but it is hard to believe that most of the market is guys with layouts with nothing smaller than O54 or even O72 curves. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the reverse is true. 

Greeenrail, thanks for your post.

Chris Dunn

 

Bingo. You get it. Not everyone, has enormous room for running their trains. I for one, love the look and detail of Scale Locomotives.

Here's a case in point. During the past year Lionel offered some scale Berkshires. (Not the 765 or 1225.) In Lima Demo, IC, Santa Fe, B&A, and SP. Beautiful Steam Locomotive, Full Details, Legacy, the whole 9 yards. The catalog says they require 054 curves. (Therefore I am out.) or am I......?

This locomotive is identical to the K-Line Version put out back in 2005. TMCC Equipped, Full detail, etc. It was rated to handle 031 curves.

Now why did Lionel take the same design and change it to 054 versus the original 031 ????? Shut me out of buying a new one. I ended up picking one up at an online auction (and it runs fine on 036 curves).

That's just one example of "curve inflation," that exhibits why I cam concerned.

I do not buy trains that will not run well on 031 curves, so I favor MTH Rail King. Minimum mainline curves on my layout are 042.

Like I said previously, Lionel's marketing and sales strategies really puzzle me.  Hard to figure out exactly what they want to do.  Also, I repeat, "I didn't leave the market, they left me".

Gentlemen,

    Greenmail makes a good point about some of the new Lionel Engine ratings, it also puzzled me that an old K-Line Engine which was rated to run on 031 curves, was remade by lionel with an 054 curve rating.  This is why when purchasing an engine you really never know what size curves and switches, your new engine will actually accommodate until you actually run the engines on your own layout, or if you can get the store to test run it for you, on their 036 or 031 layout, if they happen to still have one.   I do wish all the manufacturers would be more realistic with their min curve ratings, maybe then as Greenmail indicates, some runners would not consider themselves left out of the market place, when trying to purchase a new engine.

PCRR/Dave

illinoiscentral posted:

I wouldn't get your nose too far out of joint. Just wait and watch. You will see many of those 86 foot scale length boxcars and 21" actual length passenger cars up for sale. Ever see those MTH Schnabels or 33k tank cars by Atlas, why do people sell them? Cuz they are too long for most reasonably sized layouts in O gauge. The items were bought, and then when reality set in, up for sale they go.

 

And those of us with mega curves and a small budget are just waiting for them to start showing up.  =)

Haven't I read that Lionel is/has stopped making small radius track?  If so, maybe they've stopped putting that rating on their engines because of that reason alone.  If they don't sell any 027 track, why would they put on the box that the engine can go round anything but what they sell???

Hopefully  "the current status of the Hobby and to Hopefully encourage all of the Manufacturers to not let those of us with limited space fade out of the marketplace."  I dont think that that statement is true.

Built-to-Order is a very clear example of marketing ONLY to those who can afford the engine and those engines usually are 072 or greater. That there are no 031 "built to order" engines says to me that Lionel is not willing to chance building detailed 031 or 054 engines with all the features of a built to order engine because there is not a great enough market for it. Does that mean that LIONEL is trying to shift the market to 072 only?

I think so.

At some point we have to admit that Lionel is marketing to certain monetary classes of us. Which is the way smart companies market. Marketing engines that run on O72 is for those who want greater scale and detail whereas those engines that run on 031 understand that those engines possess lessor detail. The greater size engine on 072 or 21" passenger cars have greater details because there is more space. Layouts are naturally bigger than 4x8  to have 072 radii and can accommodate  more details than a 4x8 layout.

ALSO as to track radii MTH and LIONEL do put a different spin on that; when LIONEL says 072 it means 072; MTH not so much; as I have found an MTH 072 will run on 054.

I have to share this story.  Several years ago my layout had 054 curves for the max radius.  I came accross a nice 3rd Rail 4-8-4 Northern at a reasonable price.  I purchased the full scale 4-8-4 even though it clearly stated on the box 072 minimum curve.  While waiting on my new locomotive to arrive I shared news of ,what I had purchased with a friend, he said, " It won't work."  I was like nah I know it will.  Welp, the UPS man came, I unboxed my beautiful locomotive and placed it on the track.  I fired it up, man it sounded great.  It pulled out of the station pulling a long passenger train.  Everything was great, UNTIL THE FIRST CURVE!!! Yep, you guessed it, big derailment.  I learned my lesson on that, had to eat crow.  I immediately added on an 072 loop for my big locomotives.  To be honest, my DD40 really should have wider than 072.  The DD40 runs fine on 072, but it doesn't really look right.

Jacobpaul81 posted:

illinoiscentral posted:

I wouldn't get your nose too far out of joint. Just wait and watch. You will see many of those 86 foot scale length boxcars and 21" actual length passenger cars up for sale. Ever see those MTH Schnabels or 33k tank cars by Atlas, why do people sell them? Cuz they are too long for most reasonably sized layouts in O gauge. The items were bought, and then when reality set in, up for sale they go.

 

And those of us with mega curves and a small budget are just waiting for them to start showing up.  =)

Are you guys unaware that sometimes even large/scale items in o scale show up on the secondary market because a) they are not very good and b) they have a narrow time-frame and/or corresponding railroad that used them?

Once again, EVERYTHING shows up on the secondary market at some point or another, be it toylike or highly prototypical.

A lot of drama queens here....

86TA355SR posted:

A lot of drama queens here....

look in the mirror

At some point we have to admit that Lionel is marketing to certain monetary classes of us. I don't believe this. and if so that would be very stereotypical. here's why yes I have space of about 13X16 but run 031. and honestly if it wasn't for the wife I could buy a new vision line bigboy every month of the year. yes I have that much disposable income. but I don't I do spend my fair share every month this month was about $1100 point I'm making is this. I have the money to spend on detailed engines but 031 detailed engines are far and in between.

If Lionel started marketing 18" x 48" modular sections to gradually create long and narrow layouts back in 1970, people would be building their track layouts differently today.

Instead they chose to market 4'x8' layouts and everybody followed. They were very persuasive in their repetition.

Andrew

Have any of you that are concerned about Lionel only offering trains to the high end market looked at the the latest 2016 catalogs.  Both the Signature and ready to run catalogs are loaded with locos designed to run on small radius curves.

And all the talk of lack of quality causing folks to dump the larger engines is interesting.  I have yet to have a Lionel large steamer or hi end diesel fail and many date back to 2000 - 2002.

It seems to me that there are many here who resent that something may be produced for a market other than the one in which they place themselves!

Happy railroading,

Don

I wouldn't worry about it, I have been behind most of my life and they usually catch up to me. What goes around, comes around. Like everything else all markets evolve.

DGJONES posted:

And all the talk of lack of quality causing folks to dump the larger engines is interesting.  I have yet to have a Lionel large steamer or hi end diesel fail and many date back to 2000 - 2002.

 

Well, I have had one fail--the electronics, that is--from the early '90s.  It has had a ERR conversion that has not been entirely successful, and I still haven't gotten the smoke unit repaired.  Just one datum.

I bet there's more of us who have had no problems than there are that have had many problems.

Of my 16 engines, I had 1 old RailKing 2-8-0 (Locosounds) that wouldn't run if it was under 50 degrees and a RailKing NW2 (PS2) that had 1 strand of wire periodically shorting to the chassis (took a magnifying glass to find it).

All other issues were self-induced, which have been few, or I did something with DCS or TMCC that I didn't do correctly (pilot error).

The only BIG issues I ever had with DCS is both Variable channels won't work in Fixed modes anymore, haven't got it fixed yet.

Of course all those are electrical issues, the only mechanical issues I've had is when a pilot truck jumps the track.  Caused by either my poor track-laying skills or track out of gauge.  I did have the wheel quartering get fouled up on my Railking 0-6-0, caused by a loose screw, easily fixed too.

None of these issues have been permanent (the Variable channels are temporary, only because I haven't made the effort to get them repaired yet), I have no shelf queens.

If large engines (that require large curves) are your thing then you need to plan ahead.  Either allow for larger curves when designing your layout or build a shelf long enough to display them.  Don't just assume that everything made is going to fit on your layout.

Another example of Curve Inflation. The Legacy UP Heritage Series of SD70Ace's. When they came out they were shown in the catalogs with 036 curve capabilities. When the newer NS SD70Ace's came out, they show 054 curves as a requirement. While a bit longer (at least in the catalog descriptions)), this is somewhat of a disappointment as far as I am concerned.

The SD38, shown in the 2015 Vo. 2 Catalog, requires 054, but the same (or similar sized) SD40-2 from the 2014 Signature Catalog, requires 031 curves.

Which leads me back to my original observations regarding how this creeping "Curve Inflation" requirement is leading people like me away from any of the newer locomotives. And, Yes, I get the fact that the MTH line has the Railking series.

It boils down to what people of  my ilk are willing to spend and the detailing and features we find desirable.

To sum it all up, I would encourage the product planners to keep us in mind. ES44AC's that handle 036 (or even 031) curves with the detail level and features wanted would, in my opinion expand the market and sales of these locomotives. Likewise, for other models and Steam Locomotives.

I just don't care for the Lionchief(+) line up and think making it so much different from an electronics standpoint was shortsighted from a compatibility standpoint with past TMCC and Legacy systems. They should have ben an entry level pathway to growth into upper tier control systems. Not making them such, placed a barrier in the way of many future hobbyists.

That's just my opinion. I get the whole price point logic. Just don't see the carry-over link to future growth.

With that, thanks to all for participating in the conversation, and keeping it relatively civil.

"...027 stuff for the little baby layout guys..."

I find it funny that there is so much anti- O27/Traditional sentiment on the O27/Traditional forum. 

handyandy posted:

"...027 stuff for the little baby layout guys..."

 

I find it funny that there is so much anti- O27/Traditional sentiment on the O27/Traditional forum. 

Interesting, isn't it?

One last comment (yeah, right)...For what's being charged for the models today, I want it to be the most accurate, best detailed model I can get.  If I want something not so accurate and detailed, then I expect to pay less.  Sure there may be things I get that don't fit my criteria, but after almost 25 years in O scale I've learned to at least look before I buy.

mlavender480 posted:

handyandy posted:

"...027 stuff for the little baby layout guys..."

 

I find it funny that there is so much anti- O27/Traditional sentiment on the O27/Traditional forum. 

Interesting, isn't it?

The interesting part is how handyandy left out the "hi-rail" part of the forum name.

Quoting stuff out of context is an underhanded way to get your point across.

GREENRAIL posted:

Yanno, folks, I posted this in the HiRail forum for a reason. I won't do battle with those who are Scale Purists. They have their wishes and needs, and that's just fine and dandy. I purposely have kept my comments as broad as possible to reflect my personal feelings and observations.

 

By the way, you couldn't have posted this in another forum if you wanted.  The 3RS forum has be stuff without lobster claws (MTH and Lionel and WBB and RMT don't make stuff without lobster claws.)  And obviously none of this stuff will run on a 2-rail layout.  Those are the only two other o-gauge forums where "Scale Purists" (if that's a real thing) would likely exist.

Martin H posted:

mlavender480 posted:

handyandy posted:

"...027 stuff for the little baby layout guys..."

 

I find it funny that there is so much anti- O27/Traditional sentiment on the O27/Traditional forum. 

Interesting, isn't it?

The interesting part is how handyandy left out the "hi-rail" part of the forum name.

Quoting stuff out of context is an underhanded way to get your point across.

"Hi-Rail" doesn't mean "snotty rivet-counting wise guy".  It originally meant running TRADITIONALLY SIZED trains (O27/O31) in a realistic environment.

Seems to me that you just like to argue...

mlavender480 posted:

Martin H posted:

mlavender480 posted:

handyandy posted:

"...027 stuff for the little baby layout guys..."

 

I find it funny that there is so much anti- O27/Traditional sentiment on the O27/Traditional forum. 

Interesting, isn't it?

The interesting part is how handyandy left out the "hi-rail" part of the forum name.

Quoting stuff out of context is an underhanded way to get your point across.

"Hi-Rail" doesn't mean "snotty rivet-counting wise guy".  It originally meant running TRADITIONALLY SIZED trains (O27/O31) in a realistic environment.

Seems to me that you just like to argue...

There has been a lot of discussion on this forum, and throughout the internet, as to exactly how "hi-rail" is defined.  There is no consensus.

Martin H posted:

mlavender480 posted:

handyandy posted:

"...027 stuff for the little baby layout guys..."

 

I find it funny that there is so much anti- O27/Traditional sentiment on the O27/Traditional forum. 

Interesting, isn't it?

The interesting part is how handyandy left out the "hi-rail" part of the forum name.

Quoting stuff out of context is an underhanded way to get your point across.

Sorry about that. I guess since Hi Rail is lumped in with Traditional and O27 I just consider it all the same. Not quite full O scale, but still O gauge trains. Meant no disrespect. Just seems odd that people on a forum for O27 are so against O27.

But what can you expect from one of us baby layout guys!   LOL

I had Lionels as a kid. "Grew out of them" around 1960 or so. Always had a soft spot for trains though. Wonder if dad had any idea what he was starting at Xmas, 1952?

Never did like the "toy" stuff. Always wanted them to look as real as possible, even way back "in the day!" Couldn't afford "big, real-looking" stuff though. Then there was never the room either.

Well, there STILL isn't the room! But hang it, I want the "big, real-looking stuff" anyway!

My layout is around-the-wall in a 12-1/2 X 14-1/2 ft room. Outer loop has a minimum O-80 curve. The inner loop is all O-72. Other curves on the outer loop are wider than O-80. That O-80 curve is in a tunnel. So "big stuff" doesn't look too bad on my outer loop. What happens in that O-80 tunnel is nobody's business!

Deliberately did it this way so I could run scale engines and 21" pass. cars. Definitely limited me. That's for sure. But I can run the stuff I love. A Big Boy would be pushing it, but they're not the stuff a Canadian kid ever saw. My 2-10-4 Selkirk, my E8 #1800 and scale length CP HW pass cars are at home pretty much, even though, on the outer loop, they never touch a switch.

Yes, I had to compromise to accommodate larger stuff. I have no regrets that I did so but others are happier with more complex trackage and having to run smaller stuff.

Next time someone asks why I've gotten away from the hobby, I'm going to refer them to some of the comments/attitudes on here.  After a while, you just get tired of it...

To the original question, yes, there's certainly a "radius creep" evident in L's products over the last few years that makes a lot of rolling stock and most new locomotives irrelevant to me.  Thankfully, the secondary market is bursting with like-new O27 and O31 products that many of us are happy to embrace.

The entire intent of my layout was to do as much as possible in as small a space as possible... O-gauge is just one of half-a-dozen hobbies for me.  If a locomotive doesn't run on O27 or O31, I take my $ and move on.

Honestly, this is a golden age for being able to get products that work for you and your layout... whether it's an O27 4x8 on carpet or rivet-scale filling a garage!

Isn't the current radius creep associated with the customer desire for fixed pilots on their locomotives to get another step closer to prototypical? Isn't that the reason a longer Lionel SD60 with a swinging pilot can get by on O36, while the shorter SD38 with a fixed pilot requires O54?

The more realistic we want our railroads, to greater the required track radius. 

I love the electronics.  Based on the shelf layout my limited space allows, prototypical detail is lost most of the time and it's priced completely out of my reach.  LionMaster and RailKing are where I love to be - nice models without being crazy detailed yet having all the electronic bells and whistles.  I just can't get into LionChief(+) products as they render my investment in TMCC/Legacy mute.  So for tastes (high end electronics and modest models) LionMaster and RailKing are perfect.  I've noticed with the last catalog I'm feeling there is less there for me, but in all honesty this is a marathon, not a sprint.  And I really only need so many engines to begin with.  I've got 3 TMCC and 2 DCS and 3-4 more would likely be as much as I want anyway.  There are too many other things like crane/boom cars, operating milk cars, log cars etc etc.  

AlanRail posted:

Hopefully  "the current status of the Hobby and to Hopefully encourage all of the Manufacturers to not let those of us with limited space fade out of the marketplace."  I dont think that that statement is true.

Built-to-Order is a very clear example of marketing ONLY to those who can afford the engine and those engines usually are 072 or greater. That there are no 031 "built to order" engines says to me that Lionel is not willing to chance building detailed 031 or 054 engines with all the features of a built to order engine because there is not a great enough market for it. Does that mean that LIONEL is trying to shift the market to 072 only?

I think so.

At some point we have to admit that Lionel is marketing to certain monetary classes of us. Which is the way smart companies market. Marketing engines that run on O72 is for those who want greater scale and detail whereas those engines that run on 031 understand that those engines possess lessor detail. The greater size engine on 072 or 21" passenger cars have greater details because there is more space. Layouts are naturally bigger than 4x8  to have 072 radii and can accommodate  more details than a 4x8 layout.

ALSO as to track radii MTH and LIONEL do put a different spin on that; when LIONEL says 072 it means 072; MTH not so much; as I have found an MTH 072 will run on 054.

With the T rail CITY OF DENVER and Hudson pre-war, Lionel was moving to a "0-72" line.  Actually. if Lionel wants to import a BTO O-72 line, let them!