Lionel 0-6-0 Docksider LC+2.0 Chuff Rate Reduction (Sounds Garble)

I happened across this and I'm actually considering the same mode for mine.  Although it's no speed demon, it does sound pretty silly pretty quickly when the chuffs suddenly break up and the sound gets all garbled.

I am impressed with the pulling power of this little guy, I hooked it up to seventeen tank cars and it made it all the way around the layout, including the 2.5% grade!  I really didn't think it would handle the grade, a pair of the RMT BEEP engines together couldn't pull the same seventeen tank cars up that grade!

I've grown to like the mod a lot more over time. I don't notice the missing chuffs anymore and I appreciate the small improvement in defined puffs of smoke. It's also nice to be able to cruise around a little faster without garbling the sound.

I would not have expected it to pull that many cars up a grade! I've put some die cast hot metal cars behind it and it pulls well but I figured that was peak performance.

I was sure it wouldn't pull them up the hill, and I was pretty stunned to see it didn't even miss a beat, just kept chugging right up the hill!

You worried at all about burning up the motor? I hate to get cocky but I'm not too concerned.

I don't plan on a steady diet of that kind of load, I was just curious if it would do it.  The bonus is I can fix it if I break it.

Good point! I wasn't here for the last 0-6-0s and they're failure-prone motors so that's probably where my lack of concern comes from. I think I could replace a motor if I did have a failure though.

This motor is the same size and form-factor as the original conventional docksider, but I don't know if it's a better quality motor.  I won't be pulling long consists with this as a rule, I have big iron for those chores.

This is a great post

From the videos I see on this locomotive it appears to be a great smoker which I am a fan of. I wondered why it didn't have synchronized chuffing smoke but that makes sense now.

I have no plans of doing mods to one but i found one new for $225.

Do you guys think it is a good locomotive for the price in the stock condition? I am a slow speed guy when I run trains and my layout has o31 curves.

Brad

There has been discussion previously about the shortcomings of 4 chuffs with small switchers, I think. The idea was that 4 chuffs, which everyone seems to want, may not be the best thing in case of small steamers, with small wheels, where the machine gun staccato sound of 4 chuffs can sound awful, and the sound gets all garbled, which appears to be the case here.

Speaking of pesky couplers on these things, I've had that in spades. Finally got the rear one to work (not quite sure how - disassembled and reassembled several times, exchanged parts, did some sanding, etc. etc., and all of a sudden it started working, for no apparent reason. The front coupler, which had worked, stopped working. Got replacement parts, and it still won't work. It buzzes, but won't open. I just left it, but will have to revisit this at some point.

@B rad posted:

This is a great post

From the videos I see on this locomotive it appears to be a great smoker which I am a fan of. I wondered why it didn't have synchronized chuffing smoke but that makes sense now.

I have no plans of doing mods to one but i found one new for $225.

Do you guys think it is a good locomotive for the price in the stock condition? I am a slow speed guy when I run trains and my layout has o31 curves.

Brad

It's a pretty good deal at the price, fan driven smoke, cruise control, good sound, electrocouplers on both ends, etc.  I have a couple of them, neat little switcher.

I am planning on dropping the bottom plate and nipping two of the nodes off the chuff switch cam to slow down the chuffing, I think that will improve the sound for very little work.

@B rad Thanks! I think it's a great little locomotive for the price. It can really do some pulling on level layouts for its size although I've been told it's hard on the motor. It is a great smoker and the sound is good. It doesn't necessarily creep around the layout like the bigger steamers do but it still can move pretty slow. You would be wise to buy the better siderods for it. That improves slow speeds and overall running. It's cheap and very easy! The part number is around the forum here somewhere. You really not notice the chuff rate reduction and the gain in speed was worth it for me. But I suppose you'll be plenty happy if you run them slow.

@breezinup I would almost consider the phase of the moon to affect the coupler function on these locomotives. Mine will work fine for weeks and then go on a two week streak of not working. It's weird!! I haven't taken mine apart or anything. It really hasn't been that much of an issue. Still a great engine!

I would be careful how you load the little locomotive, the very small set motor in this one isn't up to a lot of loading.  I've replaced a number of the tiny flat-sided set motors in various locomotives over the years.  It's by far the most common motor failure I see.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I would be careful how you load the little locomotive, the very small set motor in this one isn't up to a lot of loading.  I've replaced a number of the tiny flat-sided set motors in various locomotives over the years.  It's by far the most common motor failure I see.

I'll be interested to see how it does with cyclical loading. The locomotive pulls two or three hoppers and that hasn't been an issue. But I do ask it to push those hoppers up a 4% grade.

So far no problem. I suspect it will be worth getting an extra motor on hand though.

It does get hot when I put 11 cars on it and run it for a new minutes. Not sure if that's motor or smoke unit though.

Hello again,

I got my LC+ 2.0 0-6-0t. It runs wonderfully.

I was expecting some wobble at slow speeds but had none. It did jerk a little at first but broke in fine.

I looked up the upgraded side rod part number provided here (620-8613-320). What does this do?

When I look the part number up it seems to be the stock replacement according to lionels website?

Am I missing something with the side rod replacement?

I have only run it for 5 or 10 minutes so far.

Smokes great!

Brad

Good deal @B rad. Glad it runs well. Mine has a funny gait when it runs but it doesn't bother me much.

The side rod has tighter holes (and circular I believe) for the drive wheels. This removes some slop in the linkage and helps the locomotive run better. I would have to look if that number is correct and I can check that when I get some time.

They're great little locomotives in my opinion!

Here's my slightly altered procedure, I skipped taking rods off, that helps with not pulling the wheels out of the frame.

The little Lionel LC+ 2.0 0-6-0T Docksider is a cool little locomotive and a good deal at a street price a little over $200. Cruise, RailSounds, TMCC/Bluetooth/LC Universal remote control, fan driven smoke, electrocouplers, etc. One thing does bug me about the factory configuration, and I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but the 4-chuffs/rev are too much. Actually, it's what happens at a fairly slow speed to the sound that's too much, suddenly the chuffs get garbled and, quite frankly, sound like crap! This is one of the few examples where in the case of the chuff rate, less is better.

Time to fix that! The whole mod takes about five minutes or so, so it's not what I consider an onerous task!

The intended victim ready for the mod.

First step, remove the two pickups. The insulators sometimes come with them and sometimes stick to the gear cover. No matter, they just set in place during reassembly.

Remove the six gear cover screws, Note the locations indicated by the red arrows. Also, note the screws indicated by the green arrows, the center set of screws are smaller than the other four. Don't mix up the screws, make sure you get them in the correct places.

Gently pick up the gear cover. Note that during this step, do NOT disturb the wheels or lift them out. The center wheels are spring loaded and have a small spring under the floating bearings that is easily lost. You just want to leave all of this stuff in place.

One of the four little prongs on the axle will be exposed, carefully cut it off with flush cutting cutters. Be careful not to cut the base of the prong that circles the axle, just the actual prong.

Using a small screwdriver that just wedges into the hole in the worm gear, carefully rotate the drive wheels 1/2 a turn to expose the opposite prong of the hall effect sensor triggers.

Using the flush cutters again, cut that prong off like the one on the opposite side.

Reassemble in reverse order and you're done!

After the mod, you can run at more prototypical speeds with decent chuff sounds. If you crank up the speed, it'll still garble the chuffs, but at least it's more usable now with decent sound.

@BillYo414 posted:

Good deal @B rad. Glad it runs well. Mine has a funny gait when it runs but it doesn't bother me much.

The side rod has tighter holes (and circular I believe) for the drive wheels. This removes some slop in the linkage and helps the locomotive run better. I would have to look if that number is correct and I can check that when I get some time.

They're great little locomotives in my opinion!

Thanks BillYo414. I would like to know. I don't have much run time so if it starts to act up I would love to upgrade the side rods if it helps. The part number 620-8613-320 comes up at Hennings and Lionel as 0-6-0t switcher side rods and I do not see others so I assume they are the stock rods. I will say that on Lionels website they show up as an older model replacement so maybe the older side rods are better and fit the LC+ 2.0 0-6-0t's? Not sure.

Brad

Correct, I bought the side rods for the old conventional model for my two Docksiders, they improved the running.  They not the smoothest running locomotives, but they run a lot smoother with less slop in the rods.  Not sure why the oversized holes were used.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Here's my slightly altered procedure, I skipped taking rods off, that helps with not pulling the wheels out of the frame.

The little Lionel LC+ 2.0 0-6-0T Docksider is a cool little locomotive and a good deal at a street price a little over $200. Cruise, RailSounds, TMCC/Bluetooth/LC Universal remote control, fan driven smoke, electrocouplers, etc. One thing does bug me about the factory configuration, and I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but the 4-chuffs/rev are too much. Actually, it's what happens at a fairly slow speed to the sound that's too much, suddenly the chuffs get garbled and, quite frankly, sound like crap! This is one of the few examples where in the case of the chuff rate, less is better.

Time to fix that! The whole mod takes about five minutes or so, so it's not what I consider an onerous task!

The intended victim ready for the mod.

First step, remove the two pickups. The insulators sometimes come with them and sometimes stick to the gear cover. No matter, they just set in place during reassembly.

Remove the six gear cover screws, Note the locations indicated by the red arrows. Also, note the screws indicated by the green arrows, the center set of screws are smaller than the other four. Don't mix up the screws, make sure you get them in the correct places.

Gently pick up the gear cover. Note that during this step, do NOT disturb the wheels or lift them out. The center wheels are spring loaded and have a small spring under the floating bearings that is easily lost. You just want to leave all of this stuff in place.

One of the four little prongs on the axle will be exposed, carefully cut it off with flush cutting cutters. Be careful not to cut the base of the prong that circles the axle, just the actual prong.

Using a small screwdriver that just wedges into the hole in the worm gear, carefully rotate the drive wheels 1/2 a turn to expose the opposite prong of the hall effect sensor triggers.

Using the flush cutters again, cut that prong off like the one on the opposite side.

Reassemble in reverse order and you're done!

After the mod, you can run at more prototypical speeds with decent chuff sounds. If you crank up the speed, it'll still garble the chuffs, but at least it's more usable now with decent sound.

Thanks GRJ, do you get syncronized chuffing smoke at slow speeds with this mod or is the smoke still constant?

Brad

At VERY slow speeds, you can see that the smoke actually is chuffing, but as soon as you get running any faster than the first couple speed steps, it appears continuous.  I'm contemplating sticking a 100 ohm resistor across the smoke fan motor to see if I can use a little dynamic braking to better define the chuffs.  However, there's a point where you'll have the motor drawing more current than the electronics can supply, so it's a slightly risky experiment.

Wow!   This Docksider is on my list as the only thing I plan to get for Christmas.

John's post of how to cut that chuff rate is so perfectly clear that even a "Simple Caveman Lawyer" can do it.

After doing this modification, does anybody see any difference in the speed or pulling power of the loco?

And, after the modification, does anybody see any issues with these little locos have problems traveling over standard Lionel 022 switches, ever pairs of switches, such as stalls, large hick-ups, derailment, etc.?  Silly question perhaps, but to me, these little engines are not cheap.

Thanks,

Mannyrock

That sounds like a neat experiment GRJ. I still can't believe a smoke unit and other electronics fit in such a little train. Especially a smoke unit in that small boiler area.

Brad

@Mannyrock posted:

Wow!   This Docksider is on my list as the only thing I plan to get for Christmas.

John's post of how to cut that chuff rate is so perfectly clear that even a "Simple Caveman Lawyer" can do it.

After doing this modification, does anybody see any difference in the speed or pulling power of the loco?

And, after the modification, does anybody see any issues with these little locos have problems traveling over standard Lionel 022 switches, ever pairs of switches, such as stalls, large hick-ups, derailment, etc.?  Silly question perhaps, but to me, these little engines are not cheap.

Thanks,

Mannyrock

I haven't done this mod but it sounds like it's simply deactivating 2 chuff sounds per revolution so I can't imagine it would have any other effects on the locomotive.

Brad

It won't affect anything but cutting the chuff rate in half.  All other aspects of the locomotive are retained.  Now that I see that there is actually a "chuff" action with the smoke motor, I will try my experiment of dynamic braking to see if that makes it more apparent without breaking anything else.

@gunrunnerjohn made it so much easier!! I would much rather use his method over mine! Reassembly was a pain when I took those side rods out haha but I didn't know about the screwdriver trick to turn everything.

@Mannyrock I haven't ran over 022 switches but I would imagine this should work well. I would love to hear other opinions on this.

GRJ and BillYo414, I think I would like to accomplish this mod. Could either of you possibly post a short post mod slow speed run video when you have the time?

Brad

Never mind, I see the one from the original post. Thank you, I will be doing this mod.

@BillYo414 posted:

@gunrunnerjohn made it so much easier!! I would much rather use his method over mine! Reassembly was a pain when I took those side rods out haha but I didn't know about the screwdriver trick to turn everything.

Well, I didn't feel like taking the rods off, so I went the lazy man's route.   Since the motor is bolted to the chassis and doesn't move, it's easy to rotate the worm without disturbing the rods or pulling the wheel bearings out.  I've had the wheel bearings out of way too many locomotives, and some of them are a PITA to put back in at times.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It won't affect anything but cutting the chuff rate in half.  All other aspects of the locomotive are retained.  Now that I see that there is actually a "chuff" action with the smoke motor, I will try my experiment of dynamic braking to see if that makes it more apparent without breaking anything else.

GRJ and BillYo414,

With this locomotives wheels being small along with its small shell what do you guys think about removing 3 prongs and having 1 chuff per revolution similar to a lionchief? I may be pushing the boundaries here as far as proto typical goes but was thinking it may sound better at slower and faster speeds. I wouldn't want to try this without your inputs first.

Brad

I'm happy with the 2-chuffs, so I'll stick with this.  If you think that half the chuff rate by removing two of the prongs is too fast, lopping one more off will cut it in half.  You have to decide if that's OK.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm happy with the 2-chuffs, so I'll stick with this.  If you think that half the chuff rate by removing two of the prongs is too fast, lopping one more off will cut it in half.  You have to decide if that's OK.

Thanks for the advice. I'll just take 2 off when I do it. Maybe this weekend.

Brad

Here a chuff, there a chuff, everywhere a chuff chuff.  :-O

Er, . . .is chuff even a real word???

@Mannyrock posted:

Er, . . .is chuff even a real word???

It is for me!

I even sell "chuff" products!  I couldn't do that if it weren't a real word!

Chuff-Generator

Super-Chuffer II

The Brits say "I was really chuffed when the sun came out" or whatever happened. I guess it means they're happy/pleased. So I suppose it's a word! @Mannyrock

I think one prong would give you much better looking smoke puffs buuuuuuut this is a steam switcher as far as I know. So it's not like it would ever really get to chuggin' along quickly. I think the max speed you can achieve with two prongs is pretty reasonable for realistic operation.

But it's your railroad! I'm not sure how you like to run. @B rad

FWIW, I did a bench experiment with a smoke fan motor with the impeller mounted, and I couldn't significantly effect the stopping time with removal of power with a resistor, so I abandoned the idea of trying to improve the smoke chuff appearance.

I use a FET to short the motor in my Super-Chuffer for dynamic braking, that brings the impeller to a sudden stop.  I obviously can't do that with the LC+ 2.0 electronics as I don't have access to all the signals necessary.  The smoke chuff appearance will just have to stay what it is...

Well your efforts are most definitely appreciated @gunrunnerjohn!!

Thanks BillYo414 and GRJ.

I just accomplished this mod by removing the 2 prongs. Sounds great now at slow to medium speeds. The sound starts to skip around a bit if you get too fast. Maybe I didn't get the prongs cut flush enough. They still had maybe a 1/4 prong left after cutting because my cutters didn't cut perfectly flush. For the speeds I run this was great to do and to get my feet wet working on trains. I haven't had to get inside one yet.

Thank you guys again.

Brad

Actually, you just doubled the speed before the garble, you probably did it right.  My sounds go nuts if I go too fast with the modification as well.

Chiming in here too, guys! I performed the gunrunnerjohn operation, and it was a SUCCESS!

PERFECTLY explained and illustrated!

I have to remind myself of the function of this little switcher- never really zipping along the rails, but moving cars around. I can now run it at double the speed with steady chuffing sound.  I just have to figure out how to get that pesky rear coupler to latch more easily.