Lionel 2021 Volume 2 release date set

@RickO posted:

Lol! Exactly, that's why you need a Tmcc or Legacy base to operate Lionel via DCS.

Dcs can in no way directly communicate with a Tmcc or Legacy locomotive. Mth has perpetuated this misinformation all along as a marketing tool.

Dcs transmits signals through the center rail to the pickup rollers while Tmcc / Legacy signals are radiated between the outer rail and the ground wiring of the room the train layout is in.

DCS can merely mimic commands to the TMCC/Legacy base for basic TMCC features.

When it's all said and done. You still have to invest in a Lionel command base and it requires added keystrokes from the DCS handheld just to get Basic Tmcc features.

Legacy features cannot even be accessed and the Legacy handheld is still the ONLY handheld where the "meat and potatoes " of train operation can be accessed without even looking at the remote.

There's absolutely no logic to buying a Legacy command set only to shelve the handheld so you can get basic TMCC control through the DCS handheld.

Having said all that. One could add a Lionel TPC unit or Legacy power Master and operate MTH locos conventionally for a fraction of the cost of the now unavailable DCS tiu.

Still getting the "meat and potatoes" train operation while looking at the trains, not the remote. Ironically, in this instance. The Legacy remote  actually issues commands to the MTH loco albeit, conventionally, but, whistle , bell, electrocoupler , and even the pfa's work.

Rick:

Well said. I have both the DCS and Legacy systems installed on my layout. When you own a bunch of both MTH and Lionel engines and are running them on your layout at the same time, it makes a lot of sense to be running them off the DCS handheld.  Can't do that with the Legacy handheld. The loss of some functionality of the Legacy engines when running them this way doesn't bother me.

Pat

@Greg Houser posted:

First item is....

-Greg

So #90 is really the only original Lionel engine in the catalog we've seen(well, not me as I haven't see anything other than what's posted)? A brass hybrid, okay. Without reading the description I thought at first since there was all the talk about MTH tooling, I thought this was as well. I had prepared a wrongful response that would have gotten me a kick in the pants later when someone would have pointed out what I would have said made no sense and was completely  wrong.

That being said, it looks like a small catalog this far? Well, at least what I haven't seen. Granted when these eyes finally get on the pages, things may change. I do know that Ryan has talked about #90 since maybe 2017 sometime as that was the first time I talked with him(saw the Toy Train Museum video later on in the week of October 2017 York).

#90 will be at least one thing I will be ordering, probably have a BIG price tag too. If that is all that I order I would be okay with it. See what tomorrow brings.

I guess it’s significant that more MTH tooling has been purchased, which is a good thing. But it’s only a rearrangement of where these models will be built.

For me there is no game changing event.  I operate both DCS and Legacy, so my buying, or not buying process doesn’t change. If a manufacturer makes something I like at less than extortion prices, I’ll buy it. Doesn’t matter what color the box is.  They still have to produce what I like and/or want.

It’s just another day paging through the latest catalog!

@Matt_GNo27 posted:

MBBC? What boat? (I used to crew on Bark Ode / Dog House.)

Prime Time with Jonathon Haas.  And yes, we finished first!  (Haven't seen the Handicap sheets yet)

Jon

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Lionel never made an H10. the Last Lionel "H10" was a marketing flop but the loco was a correct H9 with swinging bell!

I agree, and the Lionel h8/H9 lacked a lot of details too.

"I think peace might only break out if a few folks stop antagonizing those that are heavily invested in MTH/DCS. "

I meant in the industry itself.  There has been a tendency in the hobby for tribalism to rear its ugly head, and that will continue as long as folks find pleasure in finding fault with the other tribe and taking pleasure in the screwups or bad luck of the other favorite manufacturer .  Schadenfreude.  I have tried to emphasize the way in which some of these events will benefit both Lionel and MTH.  Lionel didn't force Mike Wolf to retire.  They are benefiting from these changes, but so is MTH/Mike Wolf.  Doesn't make it more appetizing to those completely invested in MTH/DCS, but it isn't personal. Change is the only constant (and rising prices).

I think the interoperability issue has been dead for a long, long time. I use both systems and honestly don't care that I have to use two different remotes or apps on a phone. Both apps leave a lot to be desired on the feature functionality and connectivity side, but guess what, I use all of it. Take advantage of what you have, use it as built by the manufacturer and have fun.

I think people just need to move on, use what they have an live with it regardless of manufacturer and technology. Would it be nice yes, but, coming from am manufacturing product development and marketing background I seriously doubt MTH, current condition not withstanding, or Lionel are going to reinvest millions of dollars to put out an "interoperable" product. Their needs to be massive demand and I can assure you the SRP on this would be extremely high.

There are quite a few questions to consider, some being very basic - Why give up the intellectual property you have developed? How are you going to retrofit older engines for the new "interoperable" product? ROI? Time to develop? Cost? Pricing? Total demand? Production? 5 W's?

Just my 2 cents

Does the online catalog come out at 9AM or something?

Edit: I should be more patient

@BillYo414 posted:

Does the online catalog come out at 9AM or something?

Today.  LOL!  I don't recall seeing a time but 9 is usually when it's up.

@BillYo414 posted:

Does the online catalog come out at 9AM or something?

In the past usually live between 9-9:05.

Don't see it either

Not a bad catalog. Seemed short but there are some cool offerings. I'm seeing that 2-8-0 and 4-12-2. Gotta pick between the two or get a second job. The 4-12-2 is unique and hasn't been around in a while. That makes me lean towards it.

Looks like I was wrong on those cab mounted cameras haha

Here’s the link:

http://catalogs.lionel.com/2021/C2/

those prices though….now If I could live in one of the coaches that’s be one thing.

I am in for all the coaches and 1 or 2 of the 90’s

Some very cool offerings but not much for me. #90 is tempting. Eager to see what all the custom runs look like. The Hobo car is great but the 2 road names are disappointing.

NUTS!

Would have thought there would be more UP, Southern, Freedom Train, Autotrain or other passenger car offerings. On the plus side, a lot of new and neat offerings. The Strasburg locomotives and cars are a neat offering! I don't typically model anything in the heavyweight style car but these are too good to resist. The 4-12-2 is enticing as well as the DD35. Will be picking up Ford #101 4 Door High cube for certain!

I didn't notice the cabooses (the cabeese? cabeeses??) with the wifi cam. That's very appealing. I'd like to hear some people's experiences with them before I buy though. I get worried that would just be a gimmick and not actually be quality.

Wallet saved this time.  Have 2 from Vol. 1 coming into the home stretch.  More left for York.  That will be fun to see faces of Lionel.  Hopefully not to ask about PE wrong color RPO?

@BillYo414 posted:

I didn't notice the cabooses (the cabeese? cabeeses??) with the wifi cam. That's very appealing. I'd like to hear some people's experiences with them before I buy though. I get worried that would just be a gimmick and not actually be quality.

I have already order the CN WiFi cam caboose!

@Madockawando posted:

I have already order the CN WiFi cam caboose!

I'm thinking of buying the Cotton Belt one and then just modifying the letters to make it look like my local railroad bought at auction and re-lettered it. But it would be VERY cool to see the layout from a caboose. I'll have to see if anybody has reviews on the Youtube.

now to choose ... i might have to play eeny meany mighty moe for these

nothing is for certain preorder wise until i can talk to my folks .... which i don't have high hopes for

i 'm leaning more toward the union pacific hudson

I don’t actually hate this catalog. Wish there was more in it, but I am so glad the Strasburg guys are getting 90.
The SD70MAC is very cool. Some of the customers I see at work are the guys that want and can afford Legacy engines, but can’t have them due to the curves. Good move on that one being O-36 friendly. Hopefully I can convince my boss to order some.

Perhaps this catalog was shorter due to the new tooling being acquired. Lionel may just have a crapload of stuff to do, and did a smaller catalog in order to stay on top of things.

The Strasburg Decapods are nice - and kudos to Lionel for continuing to develop new tooling.  I probably would have been more interested in Strasburg #475 though since a 4-8-0 Mastodon is a very rare occurrence and I don't think it has ever been done before.  Don't get me wrong, #90 is tempting, but my wallet is asking for some pain killers.

I will definitely get a set of the C&I 2-bay hoppers.  I wish they were selling the red/white/blue ones separately.

@GenesisFan99 posted:

I don’t actually hate this catalog. Wish there was more in it, but I am so glad the Strasburg guys are getting 90.
The SD70MAC is very cool. Some of the customers I see at work are the guys that want and can afford Legacy engines, but can’t have them due to the curves. Good move on that one being O-36 friendly. Hopefully I can convince my boss to order some.

Perhaps this catalog was shorter due to the new tooling being acquired. Lionel may just have a crapload of stuff to do, and did a smaller catalog in order to stay on top of things.

I'm going to go with "Lionel may just have a crapload of stuff to do" theory based on comments from Lionel yesterday. They said that sales from the Volume 1 2021 catalog were extremely good and they have a lot of hard work to do to get it all delivered.  They also confirmed what may of us suspected: That the isolation from Covid has lead to an increase in layout building and interest in the hobby as a whole.

So far I have ordered the 2-8-0 Maine Central Legacy Steam, the LionChief Lionel Lines 773 Hudson and the Canadian National Wifi Cupola cam (really cool idea).

I have to step away from the catalog before I decide to order more!

Preordered a 2-8-0 Illinois Central and Chicago & Eastern Illinois from Mr. Muffins.

https://mrmuffinstrains.com/pr...mp;mc_eid=3fbeeac453

Not a single thing I need in this catalog. Lots of oddball lines. Once again, very disappointed there's not LC+2 J. Nothing else new of interest in that line. How about reissue of LionMaster Hudson with LC+2, rather than the baby LC+2 Hudsons? Nice to see the MTH CA1 cabooses show up, but $150?!

@Madockawando posted:

I'm going to go with "Lionel may just have a crapload of stuff to do" theory based on comments from Lionel yesterday. They said that sales from the Volume 1 2021 catalog were extremely good and they have a lot of hard work to do to get it all delivered.  They also confirmed what may of us suspected: That the isolation from Covid has lead to an increase in layout building and interest in the hobby as a whole.

So now we're going from "Game Changer" to Letdown because "Lionel may just have a crapload of stuff to do", Really...

@rplst8 posted:

The Strasburg Decapods are nice - and kudos to Lionel for continuing to develop new tooling.  I probably would have been more interested in Strasburg #475 though since a 4-8-0 Mastodon is a very rare occurrence and I don't think it has ever been done before. Don't get me wrong, #90 is tempting, but my wallet is asking for some pain killers.

I will definitely get a set of the C&I 2-bay hoppers.  I wish they were selling the red/white/blue ones separately.

3rd Rail did an accurate 4-8-0 several years ago in both Strasburg and its original N&W liveries.  They are all but impossible to find in the secondary market now.

@Rail Dude posted:

So now we're going from "Game Changer" to Letdown because "Lionel may just have a crapload of stuff to do", Really...

Lionel purchasing MTH tooling is a game changer. Lionel being overwhelmed with sales from its last catalog is a problem I am sure the  “new” MTH wishes it had. 😁

Nothing I need, by any rational definition of the term, but I might spring for a C-Liner or two and some New Haven passenger cars.

Prices are what they are.  Complaining about prices is like complaining about the weather.  Makes one feel better but achieves nothing of substance .  Buy what you can afford, have space for and pleases you.  I'm pretty sure pricing reflects costs of goods sold, including tripling of shipping prices, doubling to tripling of materials and labor prices rather than Ryan Kunkle's boat payments.

Maybe the reason MTH prices for similar products now in the Lionel catalog have been what they are is because sales are way down,  and that's one reason Mike Wolf wants to get out due to red ink?  We'll know in a year or less is my guess.  Right now I'd guess they are trying to keep the factory busy so Atlas can produce products next year.  And prices will rise, in all likelihood, perhaps by quite a bit.

I would have considered ordering a PRR C-Liner, since those are pretty rare to come by now-a-days, but Lionel has chosen to do the B-A1A wheel arrangement in Tuscan Red 5-stripe.  I'm pretty sure the PRR only owned the B-B arrangement and they only wore DLGE.

@Bob posted:

3rd Rail did an accurate 4-8-0 several years ago in both Strasburg and its original N&W liveries.  They are all but impossible to find in the secondary market now.

I've seen the HO version.  Didn't know they did an O-scale variant.  I'll have to keep looking I guess.

@GenesisFan99 posted:

I don’t actually hate this catalog. Wish there was more in it,

Perhaps this catalog was shorter due to the new tooling being acquired. Lionel may just have a crapload of stuff to do, and did a smaller catalog in order to stay on top of things.

Huh???

2021 vol. 2 catalog: 100 pages

2020 vol. 2 catalog: 96 pages

Well, the boxcars with the graffiti are kind interesting.

Boy I would love to do a #90 Strasbourg Decapod but at a list price of $1900 even if I find A pre-order discount of 25% I would need $2025 to do the engine plus 4 woodside passenger cars. That’s a little over my yearly train budget. I was also hoping Lionel would do a New Hope and Ivyland Consolidation as I do have the GP30 set on pre-order but no luck unless one of Lionel’s smarter dealers would do a special run of #40. Before any of the rivet counters say it would only match the wheel configuration (2-8-0) and not be a true #40 well that would be OK with me as I am a 3 rail guy so I know how to make due with what you get. Plus a scale consolidation for around $600 to $650 makes it a good deal.

The PRR C liners look nice but at $600 list I would have to go for two. Then again PRR did not do the 3 & 2 axle trucks and did not paint any C liner in Tuscan so I will wait until they do a DLGE 2 2 axle trucks in the future. I am also still a little unsure about Lionel’s version of Tuscan even though I have read that they did Tuscan correctly on the recent E7s.

I guess I am going to get away cheap this catalog unless a smart Lionel dealer does a special run of New Hope & Ivyland #40.

JohnB

@JohnB posted:

The PRR C liners look nice but at $600 list I would have to go for two. Then again PRR did not do the 3 & 2 axle trucks and did not paint any C liner in Tuscan so I will wait until they do a DLGE 2 2 axle trucks in the future. I am also still a little unsure about Lionel’s version of Tuscan even though I have read that they did Tuscan correctly on the recent E7s.

No C-Liner B unit either.  Sort of disappointing.

@JohnB posted:

Boy I would love to do a #90 Strasbourg Decapod but at a list price of $1900 even if I find A pre-order discount of 25% I would need $2025 to do the engine plus 4 woodside passenger cars. That’s a little over my yearly train budget. I was also hoping Lionel would do a New Hope and Ivyland Consolidation as I do have the GP30 set on pre-order but no luck unless one of Lionel’s smarter dealers would do a special run of #40. Before any of the rivet counters say it would only match the wheel configuration (2-8-0) and not be a true #40 well that would be OK with me as I am a 3 rail guy so I know how to make due with what you get. Plus a scale consolidation for around $600 to $650 makes it a good deal.

The PRR C liners look nice but at $600 list I would have to go for two. Then again PRR did not do the 3 & 2 axle trucks and did not paint any C liner in Tuscan so I will wait until they do a DLGE 2 2 axle trucks in the future. I am also still a little unsure about Lionel’s version of Tuscan even though I have read that they did Tuscan correctly on the recent E7s.

I guess I am going to get away cheap this catalog unless a smart Lionel dealer does a special run of New Hope & Ivyland #40.

JohnB

Pre order discount 25%.  Who goes that deep?   I usually get 10%.

@Bob posted:

3rd Rail did an accurate 4-8-0 several years ago in both Strasburg and its original N&W liveries.  They are all but impossible to find in the secondary market now.

I think there is enough interest to warrant another run of there from 3rd rail. They'd be good sellers.

Now that Lionel is tackling 90, I wonder if anyone will own the SRC "trifecta" of Lionel's conventional 89, 3rd Rail's 475, and the new 90.

Speaking of which... my way-to-early prediction for 2022 catalogs is SRC 89 with the new SRC coaches.

@JohnB posted:

Boy I would love to do a #90 Strasbourg Decapod but at a list price of $1900 even if I find A pre-order discount of 25% I would need $2025 to do the engine plus 4 woodside passenger cars. That’s a little over my yearly train budget. I was also hoping Lionel would do a New Hope and Ivyland Consolidation as I do have the GP30 set on pre-order but no luck unless one of Lionel’s smarter dealers would do a special run of #40. Before any of the rivet counters say it would only match the wheel configuration (2-8-0) and not be a true #40 well that would be OK with me as I am a 3 rail guy so I know how to make due with what you get. Plus a scale consolidation for around $600 to $650 makes it a good deal.

The PRR C liners look nice but at $600 list I would have to go for two. Then again PRR did not do the 3 & 2 axle trucks and did not paint any C liner in Tuscan so I will wait until they do a DLGE 2 2 axle trucks in the future. I am also still a little unsure about Lionel’s version of Tuscan even though I have read that they did Tuscan correctly on the recent E7s.

I guess I am going to get away cheap this catalog unless a smart Lionel dealer does a special run of New Hope & Ivyland #40.

JohnB

You can do free pre-orders through TrainWorld, they don’t charge you anything until the product actually comes into the store. That’s one of the reasons I like to pre-order through them! ETA on the Strasburg stuff is June 2022, so there’s basically a whole year to save 😃