Lionel 2021 Volume 2 release date set

@RickO posted:

Regardless of brand or control system "warfare". The best part about Lionel purchasing the tooling is, that wonderful MTH tooling will not just sit in a warehouse overseas collecting dust.

It was also nice to see Lionel bring much of the K Line tolling back into the hobby.

Now, I wonder if Lionel will take a return of my Pennsy consolidation with a Bel Paire firebox as credit towards a respectable PRR H10 model made with the MTH tooling?

This is good news for those of us  who have been on the fence about adding DCS to a Legacy layout.

Hoping Lionel ended up with all of MTH's PRR Steam molds... as well as the PRR electrics.

I could see them sticking with the K4 and E6 mold that they have worked off previously. The MTH mold for the H10 is better though IMO.

@RickO posted:

Regardless of brand or control system "warfare". The best part about Lionel purchasing the tooling is, that wonderful MTH tooling will not just sit in a warehouse overseas collecting dust.

It was also nice to see Lionel bring much of the K Line tolling back into the hobby.

Now, I wonder if Lionel will take a return of my Pennsy consolidation with a Bel Paire firebox as credit towards a respectable PRR H10 model made with the MTH tooling?

This is good news for those of us  who have been on the fence about adding DCS to a Legacy layout.

Never say never
Although, I might recommend Lionel's offering from the 2018 volume 1 catalog if you're in the market for an H-10
The big challenge is finding one.

@RickO posted:

Regardless of brand or control system "warfare". The best part about Lionel purchasing the tooling is, that wonderful MTH tooling will not just sit in a warehouse overseas collecting dust.

It was also nice to see Lionel bring much of the K Line tolling back into the hobby.

Now, I wonder if Lionel will take a return of my Pennsy consolidation with a Bel Paire firebox as credit towards a respectable PRR H10 model made with the MTH tooling?

This is good news for those of us  who have been on the fence about adding DCS to a Legacy layout.

It is interesting to note that the MTH locomotives will be produced by Lionel will have the Legacy control system.  If Lionel can do it with the newly acquired MTH tooling, then Atlas could do it as well.  So now those of us who wanted an MTH locomotive but hesitated because they run Legacy instead of DCS can now have hope to see that locomotive in Legacy after all.  Great days are ahead for the hobby!

I thought Atlas' formerly MTH locos still have protosound 3?

@The Pullman posted:

I thought Atlas' formerly MTH locos still have protosound 3?

They do.

Ah ok.

I've mostly been focused on Legacy rather then PS3 since I got started in the hobby not too long ago, and I only have Lionel stuff.

@The Pullman posted:

I thought Atlas' formerly MTH locos still have protosound 3?

They do but Lionel is showing us that there is no technical barrier to offer MTH tooling locomotives with either TMCC or Legacy. Meaning, Atlas does not have to make a long term commitment to installing DCS into the old MTH locomotives it acquired if at some point it no longer makes business sense to do so.

@The Pullman posted:

Never say never
Although, I might recommend Lionel's offering from the 2018 volume 1 catalog if you're in the market for an H-10
The big challenge is finding one.

That was my point. I own one. It's not really an H-10. It's modified NYC consolidation tooling that was originally marketed as an H- 9 .When first offered with tmcc years ago.

The MTH model actually IS and H-10.

@irish rifle posted:

What you covered in the first sentence has always been the case. What you covered in the second sentence is potentially huge, if it means that you can run new Lionel engines that will have DCS systems installed in them on TMCC or Legacy.

Pat

Nothing has changed.  To run a DCS engine you will still need a DCS system.  All that has changed in now some MTH tooling will have Legacy electronics controllable via Legacy or DCS connected to a Legacy system.

I know I am much more focused on what I buy than many of you, so for me there was nothing they talked about that appealed to me.  I have to agree with many others here, other than the Strasbourg engine what they have shown so far is old tooling and a lot of fantasy schemes that do not interest me.

For those of you that are TMCC only, I do see where MTH tooling with Legacy is a big deal.

Oh I see, I'm sorry.
Now that I look at the weaver and Lionel versions side-by-side I can see what you mean.

@Madockawando posted:

They do but Lionel is showing us that there is no technical barrier to offer MTH tooling locomotives with either TMCC or Legacy. Meaning, Atlas does not have to make a long term commitment to installing DCS into the old MTH locomotives it acquired if at some point it no longer makes business sense to do so.

Uh that's been common knowledge for years. There are plenty of MTH locomotives running around with TMCC in them (I own one myself) and plenty of Lionel locomotives with PS2/PS3 in them (I've converted some for friends).

There is no technical barrier to dropping boards and wiring in a locomotive.

@Lou1985 posted:

Uh that's been common knowledge for years. There are plenty of MTH locomotives running around with TMCC in them (I own one myself) and plenty of Lionel locomotives with PS2/PS3 in them (I've converted some for friends).

There is no technical barrier to dropping boards and wiring in a locomotive.

I never thought so either, although when the Atlas acquisition of MTH tooling was announced, some posters here suggested that Atlas had to install DCS because Legacy would not fit in to the old MTH tooling. I suspected that was never the case and now we have firm confirmation.

@Madockawando posted:

I never thought so either, although when the Atlas acquisition of MTH tooling was announced, some posters here suggested that Atlas had to install DCS because Legacy would not fit in to the old MTH tooling. I suspected that was never the case and now we have firm confirmation.

Wait... what?
I don't have experience repairing or fitting electronics into models, but if people have installed Lionel electronics into MTH engines already, how would that even would even work?

and Lionel hasn't licensed Legacy to anyone, unlike TMCC.

@Madockawando posted:

I never thought so either, although when the Atlas acquisition of MTH tooling was announced, some posters here suggested that Atlas had to install DCS because Legacy would not fit in to the old MTH tooling. I suspected that was never the case and now we have firm confirmation.

My best guess (and this is an educated guess) is the reason that Atlas is keeping PS3 in MTH acquired tooling is that PS3 is capable of running under DCS (a 3 rail O standard operating control system) as well as DCC (the 2 rail O standard operating control system). Only one board and wiring layout is required between 2 and 3 rail models, saving production costs and time. TMCC is not DCC compatible, so Atlas would require two separate boards and wiring harness for 2 and 3 rail models. With PS3 they have one board and harness for all 2 and 3 rail models. 

As far as the actual catalog goes, to reasonably get back on topic, there is nothing I'd want motive power wise. I may go back through it and possibly order a freight car or two but that would be it.

@Lou1985 posted:

As far as the actual catalog goes, to reasonably get back on topic, there is nothing I'd want motive power wise. I may go back through it and possibly order a freight car or two but that would be it.

It sounds like you have already seen the catalog?

@Madockawando posted:

It sounds like you have already seen the catalog?

Just the preview pictures posted here.

I liked this catalog a lot, at least going based off the preview pictures here.
My question is: is that it for scale steam and diesel? Or are there more offerings that weren't included in the sneak peek?

@Lou1985 posted:

My best guess (and this is an educated guess) is the reason that Atlas is keeping PS3 in MTH acquired tooling is that PS3 is capable of running under DCS (a 3 rail O standard operating control system) as well as DCC (the 2 rail O standard operating control system). Only one board and wiring layout is required between 2 and 3 rail models, saving production costs and time. TMCC is not DCC compatible, so Atlas would require two separate boards and wiring harness for 2 and 3 rail models. With PS3 they have one board and harness for all 2 and 3 rail models.

I would think Atlas did DCS because it is path of least resistance. Listening to the LCCA presentation, Lionel talked a few times about engineering the MTH tooling with legacy. No doubt fittings/harnesses had to be engineered for each MTH engine to hold Legacy. I’m guessing Atlas didn’t want to go through that process.

@Lou1985 posted:

Just the preview pictures posted here.

i think you should come back tomarrow with a deeper look

Ryan and Dave only scratched the surface today with much more to be seen tomarrow

i for one thing am curious about the hudson and the genesis as those i actually have a chance of ordering

also i really like the hobo boxcar but i think i would need legacy for it to work properly

while i do like the 90 i have no chance with that

@SuperChief posted:

I would think Atlas did DCS because it is path of least resistance. Listening to the LCCA presentation, Lionel talked a few times about engineering the MTH tooling with legacy. No doubt fittings/harnesses had to be engineered for each MTH engine to hold Legacy. I’m guessing Atlas didn’t want to go through that process.

If I heard correctly from Lionel, the prep work involved improvements to the MTH trucks .

@MichRR714 posted:

It's not a tough moment.  It's business! Lionel bought some tooling.

It’s not a tough moment for Lionel, it’s a great moment for Lionel and the hobby. It does appear that it is a tough moment for some who have not adjusted tor he fact that the hobby landscape is very different today.

i didn't realize this about the hudson

i hope they do a gunmetal grey or pacemaker scheme

i would find some way to buy it

@Madockawando posted:

It’s not a tough moment for Lionel, it’s a great moment for Lionel and the hobby. It does appear that it is a tough moment for some who have not adjusted tor he fact that the hobby landscape is very different today.

As much energy as you put into these threads ( I have no problem with it) how come we never see you post anything you’ve built, or done on your layout??….I’m just curious is all????……..maybe I’ve missed, but I only ever see you on the great debate threads,…..which, hey if that’s your cup of tea, so be it,….but as enthusiastic as you get, if you build something, to be sure it’d be mind blowing!!…I mean that sincerely, not being a jerk…..

Pat

Glad to see some MTH stuff live on, for sure. Catalog looks like it will have some cool stuff. I hope I don't want to buy that UP 4-12-2. I always thought those were beefy looking locomotives.

If the MTH tooling purchase wasn't the big announcement, then part of me is wondering if the cover of the catalog indicates we're going to get a new VR style tech in these engines. I've dreamed of that for a long time. How cool would it be to wear goggles that are receiving a live feed from your locomotive cab? The long standing rivalry between Lionel and MTH winding down is big news, for sure. But I guess I was expecting something that changes the hobby. Anyway, I assume the technology isn't there to be able to move a camera 360* and look around though and I feel it would be necessary to look around to see where the heck you're going! I suppose we'll have that stuff one day. Probably before I pay my student loans off!

Last few pages of this thread were kind of a bummer haha I mean some people are psyched about Lionel purchasing MTH tooling. I'm happy they're happy. I just want to run some trains.

@harmonyards posted:

As much energy as you put into these threads ( I have no problem with it) how come we never see you post anything you’ve built, or done on your layout??….I’m just curious is all????……..maybe I’ve missed, but I only ever see you on the great debate threads,…..which, hey if that’s your cup of tea, so be it,….but as enthusiastic as you get, if you build something, to be sure it’d be mind blowing!!…I mean that sincerely, not being a jerk…..

Pat

I have!! I posted threads about my new Lionel MEC Legacy locomotive when it can in. I also posted some pictures of my new 10x5 layout.  I posted pictures of my mix of modern and prewar buildings, my haunted forest with aliens and Bigfoot as well as the Scooby Doo team investigating Lionel’s Animated Haunted House.
I also started the latest Lionel catalog wish thread and the thread on The release date being set for July 15th. I’m sorry you haven’t noticed!

@Madockawando posted:

I have!! I posted threads about my new Lionel MEC Legacy locomotive when it can in. I also posted some pictures of my new 10x5 layout.  I posted pictures of my mix of modern and prewar buildings, my haunted forest with aliens and Bigfoot as well as the Scooby Doo team investigating Lionel’s Animated Haunted House.
I also started the latest Lionel catalog wish thread and the thread on The release date being set for July 15th. I’m sorry you haven’t noticed!

Somehow I’ve missed all of them,….my bad,…continue on with the regular scheduled program….😉

Pat

So far I see nothing "industry changing" or earth shattering in what has been revealed.  Seems like a whole lot of over exaggerating

I’m very excited for the C liners- they look great in NH hunter green! I wonder if Lionel got the big NH electric MTH premier tooling.

@Lou1985 posted:

Uh that's been common knowledge for years. There are plenty of MTH locomotives running around with TMCC in them (I own one myself) and plenty of Lionel locomotives with PS2/PS3 in them (I've converted some for friends).

There is no technical barrier to dropping boards and wiring in a locomotive.

There are tons of Lionel TMCC and Legacy engines that are run off the DCS system. There is no need to retrofit them. Just need to be programmed first into TMCC or Legacy and then added into DCS. I run all of my TMCC, Legacy and MTH engines on the DCS system. That is very common. I have never heard of an MTH engine being run on TMCC or Legacy. I suppose it is theoretically possible if you gut them and install TMCC or Legacy electronics. Doesn't make sense anyway. Why not just buy a TMCC or Legacy engine?

Pat

@irish rifle posted:

There are tons of Lionel TMCC and Legacy engines that are run off the DCS system. There is no need to retrofit them. Just need to be programmed first into TMCC or Legacy and then added into DCS. I run all of my TMCC, Legacy and MTH engines on the DCS system. That is very common. I have never heard of an MTH engine being run on TMCC or Legacy. I suppose it is theoretically possible if you gut them and install TMCC or Legacy electronics. Doesn't make sense anyway. Why not just buy a TMCC or Legacy engine?

Pat

Well a couple things:

TMCC/Legacy locomotives are still run from a TMCC/Legacy base. If you use the MTH cable to connect the TIU to the TMCC/Legacy base the DCS remote will send commands to the TIU, which will in turn send commands to the TMCC/Legacy base to send to TMCC/Legacy locomotives. You still need the Lionel components to make it work.

The MTH locomotive I have that is now TMCC control was a conventional PS1 locomotive when I got it. I added TMCC boards to get command control into it. Many times it's cheaper to purchase an old conventional Lionel or MTH locomotive and upgrade them to TMCC or PS3 than to purchase a new locomotive. Or if someone has only one of the operating systems and really wants that system in a locomotive that is not equipped that way from the factory they can add/change the command system of their choice. The locomotive doesn't care what electronics are in it. A MTH locomotive will operate fine with TMCC electronics fitted in it, and a Lionel locomotive will operate fine with PS3 electronics fitted to it. Just a matter of board swapping or adding command control if you want. It's not rocket science.

I will say Lionel's acquisition of the MTH tooling was smaller news than I thought, but it is good news, and much better than some of the ideas thrown around in this thread (eg, Lionel dropping Legacy in favor of DCS)

I've been thinking it would be nice to get some more smaller steamers beyond the 4-6-0 and I'm very happy to see the 2-8-0's are going up for sale! I was also thinking a 4-12-2 would be cool to have in the roundhouse earlier this year, saw a few options on the second-hand market but glad I waited for a Legacy offering! I honestly expected one of the Legacy diesels to be an Amtrak Genesis since it was hinted at in the thread, but I'm very happy to see it's coming as LC+ 2.0! I really hope they make cars to go with it.

@0-Gauge CJ posted:

I will say Lionel's acquisition of the MTH tooling was smaller news than I thought, but it is good news, and much better than some of the ideas thrown around in this thread (eg, Lionel dropping Legacy in favor of DCS)

I've been thinking it would be nice to get some more smaller steamers beyond the 4-6-0 and I'm very happy to see the 2-8-0's are going up for sale! I was also thinking a 4-12-2 would be cool to have in the roundhouse earlier this year, saw a few options on the second-hand market but glad I waited for a Legacy offering! I honestly expected one of the Legacy diesels to be an Amtrak Genesis since it was hinted at in the thread, but I'm very happy to see it's coming as LC+ 2.0! I really hope they make cars to go with it.

Lionel did say in the livestream that matching cars are coming soon for the Genesis. I’m happy for the O-31 guys getting their Genesis back, but it sure would be nice to have a Scale F59 and a Scale Genesis in production again.

@Lou1985 posted:

Well a couple things:

TMCC/Legacy locomotives are still run from a TMCC/Legacy base. If you use the MTH cable to connect the TIU to the TMCC/Legacy base the DCS remote will send commands to the TIU, which will in turn send commands to the TMCC/Legacy base to send to TMCC/Legacy locomotives. You still need the Lionel components to make it work.

The MTH locomotive I have that is now TMCC control was a conventional PS1 locomotive when I got it. I added TMCC boards to get command control into it. Many times it's cheaper to purchase an old conventional Lionel or MTH locomotive and upgrade them to TMCC or PS3 than to purchase a new locomotive. Or if someone has only one of the operating systems and really wants that system in a locomotive that is not equipped that way from the factory they can add/change the command system of their choice. The locomotive doesn't care what electronics are in it. A MTH locomotive will operate fine with TMCC electronics fitted in it, and a Lionel locomotive will operate fine with PS3 electronics fitted to it. Just a matter of board swapping or adding command control if you want. It's not rocket science.

Paragraph 1 is basic, and syncs with what I stated earlier. That was not the issue I was raising. This is about the operating systems, and the electronics in the engines, not about the manufacturer of the engines. My issue was about running MTH engines equipped with DCS on TMCC or Legacy systems. It can't be done. In fact, that has been a sore spot in the hobby for many years.

What you have described in paragraph 2 is essentially converting a DCS equipped engine into a TMCC or Legacy equipped engine. Such an engine would of course run on a TMCC or Legacy system. I would have no interest in that, and I strongly suspect it would interest very few people, but I get your point that it works for some.

Finally, I did love your line that "The locomotive doesn't care what electronics are in it." Totally agree, but the operating system sure cares a lot about what electronics are in the engine.

Pat   

MTH could license DCS to Lionel (so that PS3 locos could be operated in command mode using Legacy/TMCC). Perhaps this would increase sales of new and future MTH tooling-Lionel locos to those who currently only use DCS, and thus put more money in Mike Wolf's pocket.  Also might increase sales of the new PS3 Atlas locos to current Legacy/TMCC only users and put more money in Mike Wolf's pocket. It will be interesting to see if this happens and peace has truly broken out .  PS3 and DCS are more likely to survive as a currently produced system if they somehow can be operated by Legacy/TMCC which is probably the most commonly used three rail command system, and this dominance is likely to increase in the future.  One command system to control them all?  Not exactly, but we could do better.

@Greg Houser posted:

From the MTH tooling:

-Greg

Exactly what this F-M diesels only guy wanted to see!

@Prr7688 posted:

Hoping Lionel ended up with all of MTH's PRR Steam molds... as well as the PRR electrics.

I could see them sticking with the K4 and E6 mold that they have worked off previously. The MTH mold for the H10 is better though IMO.

Lionel never made an H10. the Last Lionel "H10" was a marketing flop but the loco was a correct H9 with swinging bell!

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Lionel never made an H10. the Last Lionel "H10" was a marketing flop but the loco was a correct H9 with swinging bell!

Not even an H9. It's probably closer to consolidation with a bel paire firebox.

@Landsteiner posted:

MTH could license DCS to Lionel (so that PS3 locos could be operated in command mode using Legacy/TMCC).

They could, but there is no way for the current Legacy system to control DCS equipped locomotives.  The Legacy command base simply doesn’t connect to the center rail.  No amount of licensing will fix that.  Lionel would need to develop a new command base with the right connections and circuitry to make it work.  Or possibly a 900 MHz transceiver to send and receive commands to the TIU.  Another option would be to make an LCS device that is similar to a TIU but connects to the Legacy base to translate commands to DCS and put them on the center rail.  

It will be interesting to see if this happens and peace has truly broken out .

I think peace might only break out if a few folks stop antagonizing those that are heavily invested in MTH/DCS.