Lionel announces new HO scale Polar Express set

It'll be interesting to see what the final product looks like.

I'm guessing the images of the locomotive are of the Flyer PE Berk and the cars Photoshopped O27 "baby" Madisons.

Rusty

They obviously just announced this, so there are no real details or product specifications yet. It appears by the announcement to be separate sale items: The locomotive, the 3-pack and a couple more cars. No mention of there being a complete set. No mention of new tooling either, so one might assume as this point, Lionel has gained access or rights to some HO scale tooling.

But since Lionel appears to have the license on Polar Express - I haven't seen any other company offering it - this makes sense for Lionel. The HO market is by far the biggest in the train hobby, and if the Polar Express license is exclusive to Lionel, why not tap into that market.

I'm sure many will say "well, why doesn't Lionel make 'this (name your product wish)' in O scale before they dabble in HO scale?" I don't understand everything Lionel does either. For example, it's always been maintained USA production would raise list prices considerably... at least 30%. And yet the new LionScale cars are priced less than a traditional car produced overseas. Hmm. Okay, the former Weaver tooling maybe was a bargain. The traditional tooling has long been paid for. Oh well, it's not my company.

Regardless, Polar Express has been a profitable item for Lionel. They said the first O-gauge PE set was the biggest selling set in the entire history of Lionel. That be true, why wouldn't they want to maximize profits on the license by doing an HO set.

Anything Lionel does to stay profitable and on a sound footing, benefits ALL of us regardless of our specific interests in Lionel products.

But since Lionel appears to have the license on Polar Express - I haven't seen any other company offering it - this makes sense for Lionel. The HO market is by far the biggest in the train hobby, and if the Polar Express license is exclusive to Lionel, why not tap into that market.

Well, they certainly must have a license now.

But this does not necessarily mean that they have had a license all along. Back when my kids were younger, and Shining Time Station / Thomas the Tank Engine were very popular, Lionel brought out a "G" gauge Thomas set with Anne and Clarabelle. Apparently they did not have a license to make Thomas stuff in other gauges, because another company brought out HO Thomas trains, and there were no "O" gauge ones.

JIM_1939 mentioned (over on the HI-RAIL O27 and Traditional 3-Rail O gauge list) that the HO community will reject this.  The HO hard core rivet counters and those who fringe on that most likely will reject it.  But, then, the product is probably not being marketed towards them.  I was at the NMRA show in Indy yesterday (Saturday) and saw the set.  It looks nice. I liked the cars more than the engine, but I'm a Berkshire purist.  I think the set will sell well.  

Steve

RideTheRails posted:

JIM_1939 mentioned (over on the HI-RAIL O27 and Traditional 3-Rail O gauge list) that the HO community will reject this.  The HO hard core rivet counters and those who fringe on that most likely will reject it.  But, then, the product is probably not being marketed towards them.  I was at the NMRA show in Indy yesterday (Saturday) and saw the set.  It looks nice. I liked the cars more than the engine, but I'm a Berkshire purist.  I think the set will sell well.  

Steve

Not just the hard core or fringe, probably a lot of "Joe Average" modelers also.  There are folks (like myself) that have absolutely no interest in buying Polar Express models, regardless of scale.  I've got the DVD, that's enough for me.

It's been stated that Lionel may further reenter the HO market based on the HO Polar Express sales. 

Seems odd to base a marketing strategy for what is primarily a scale fidelity market on what is basically a novelty product.  If they jump in to "serious" HO, they'll be competing against the likes of Athearn, Atlas, Bachmann, Bowser, Broadway Limited, Exact Rail, Scale Rail, Rapido, Walthers and others across various price points.

Rusty

I for one will buy the Ho polar express and run it on my layout during the Christmas season. It should be a great item.

Besides it is not a model of the  real PM 1225, It is a model of the engine depicted in the movie. 

Thank you Lionel for thinking outside the box. 

If the price point on the loco isn't totally rediculous, I think the HO Polar Express will do well. Many people over on the Bachmann forums have been asking for it for a long time. There is a fairly large HO market, that is not made up of 'rivet counters', that will like it. But, as MTH found out the hard way, they will not pay a premium for a non-DCC control system. DCC is just too embedded in the HO market.

I know they mentioned bluetooth and both Android and iOS apps. Is this a new app that takes the place of the Lion Chief controller (directly paired with the train and not requiring additional equipment)? Or is this something like the BlueTrain app connecting to TMCC via a bluetooth adapter?

Seems to me that the market this would be geared twords would be more receptive to a boxed set. Not a bunch of piece together items.  Maybe the add on cars sure, but the loco and basic passenger cars are separate.  Seems to me if they had a nice boxed set it could sit next to the o gauge and g gauge PE sets in the retail stores. I have 2 of the S gauge sets, I likely won't pop for the HO set, but I wish Lionel success with it - and like everyone else, I was surprised to hear them jump into it.  

Ben

Rusty Traque posted:

It'll be interesting to see what the final product looks like.

I'm guessing the images of the locomotive are of the Flyer PE Berk and the cars Photoshopped O27 "baby" Madisons.

Rusty

The tender trucks look HO. having the CAD drawings would enable them to scale down everything and create an engine via 3D printing. What is noteworthy is that there is an included DCC decoder to crossover LionChief to DCC.

I am wondering if one still has the Polar Express Railsounds with Tom Hanks voice announcements when using DCC.

Len2 posted:

If the price point on the loco isn't totally rediculous, I think the HO Polar Express will do well. Many people over on the Bachmann forums have been asking for it for a long time. There is a fairly large HO market, that is not made up of 'rivet counters', that will like it. But, as MTH found out the hard way, they will not pay a premium for a non-DCC control system. DCC is just too embedded in the HO market.

$249.99 MSRP with DCC decoder and LionChief remote control

No smoke?

DCC isnt embedded in the HO market, it is the standard of command control systems for everyone but 3 Rail O. 3 Railers are the only ones who have control systems that are not built to a national/international standard and are not universally compatible. 

Matt Makens posted:

DCC isnt embedded in the HO market, it is the standard of command control systems for everyone but 3 Rail O. 3 Railers are the only ones who have control systems that are not built to a national/international standard and are not universally compatible. 

So, including DCC can tap into a large market as well as the ease of LionChief control. HO is what keeps my local shop open.

Wonder if the engine and/or the supplied power supply will be able to handle the add on cars.  This was quite an issue with the early O PE and the S PE. 

I dont understand why MTH and Lionel insist on entering a a deeply entrenched market and try to change it. Build your product to fit the market you are entering, stick with whats standard

Matt Makens posted:

I dont understand why MTH and Lionel insist on entering a a deeply entrenched market and try to change it. Build your product to fit the market you are entering, stick with whats standard

They are..or at least in this case, Lionel is.  The loco comes with a DCC decoder, so it will operate out of the box on an existing layout that has DCC.  Also based on the description, you can also remove and plug in any decoder you desire.   It also comes with LionChief, so it can be run with a remote on a simple layout, without extra wiring, as well.

Finally you can run it without a remote directly from your transformer, like a good old MRC, etc..

A truly universal locomotive, out of the box.   They are not stupid, and know that giving only one way (LionChief) to run this loco would not go over very well.

I think it's cool and a good step forward in the command control paradigm.   

Despite the stereotypes in the huge train hobby, not every HO enthusiast is a rivet counting purist, and not every O gauge enthusiast is a tin plate toy no-scale operator.   We're all over the place.

Again, I think this is a neat way to introduce a new HO loco.   Ease of use for the  runner who wants a remote, but doesn't have nor want DCC. Yet, is able to run DCC for those of us who have invested in it. An finally, set up a small loop around a tree or whatever, and simply turn the dial on a transformer.   it all works, out of the box.

Matt Makens posted:

I dont understand why MTH and Lionel insist on entering a a deeply entrenched market and try to change it. Build your product to fit the market you are entering, stick with whats standard

Maybe because the HO market is the largest in model railroading?

NotInWI posted:

Seems to me that the market this would be geared twords would be more receptive to a boxed set. Not a bunch of piece together items.  Maybe the add on cars sure, but the loco and basic passenger cars are separate.  Seems to me if they had a nice boxed set it could sit next to the o gauge and g gauge PE sets in the retail stores. I have 2 of the S gauge sets, I likely won't pop for the HO set, but I wish Lionel success with it - and like everyone else, I was surprised to hear them jump into it.  

Ben

If the production observation looks like the picture and not the "real train" that may curtail sales.  The two most visually relating train items to the book/movie are the Engine and the Observation end, the "O" Observation is a flop. The "S" set seems to be much more accurate so that non train folks walk up to it and immediately say "Polar Express!"

Will the HO set really have the "Polar Express" lettering wrong rather than in the correct location????

Figure $200-225 street price which is actually pretty reasonable/competitive for a DCC and sound equipped loco in HO.

For those that haven't seen the Youtube interview by James Wright. Fast forward to 10:56 for the Lionel PE segment to see and hear it.

Lionel tried to enter the HO  market more than once and failed. They dont seem to understand the market, HO scalers don't want their "proprietary" control systems especially since what they already have is better. It has nothing to do with the size of the HO market but everything to do with Lionel's and MTH's attitude that HO will change for their stuff and it wont.

Matt Makens posted:

Lionel tried to enter the HO  market more than once and failed. They dont seem to understand the market, HO scalers don't want their "proprietary" control systems especially since what they already have is better. It has nothing to do with the size of the HO market but everything to do with Lionel's and MTH's attitude that HO will change for their stuff and it wont.

Maybe that's why the Polar Express' LionChief appears to have DCC code loaded in...  And will also have a 9-pin DCC socket included. (Verify contents on the box, of course...)

In the video, it looks like they were controlling the sample with an NCE DCC controller.

Rusty

A point to consider is that HO modelers, even the most rabid rivet counters amongst them , often have children or grandchildren.  The ability to put this loco on their layout, and hand an inexpensive, simple remote control (that comes with the loco at no additional charge) to a child or friend is a potential selling point.  If the loco will operate using the remote on a DCC layout, that would be ideal for those wishing to share their layout with a child but without putting an expensive and complex DCC remote in their hands.

It will run on DC or DCC with a transformer, DCC controller, or the Lionel handheld remote. The remote apparently uses Bluetooth so that means that you can also use a smart device and an app to control it as well. The Lionel electronics plug into a standard 9 pin DCC plug which means you can put a standard DCC sound decoder in if you like. This is the perfect approach IMHO. Kudos to Lionel.

brianel_k-lineguy posted:

But since Lionel appears to have the license on Polar Express - I haven't seen any other company offering it - this makes sense for Lionel. ts.

Lionel does have the sole license. It was publicized when they got it, and that happened years ago, now. In addition to appropriate financial considerations made by Lionel to the owners of the name, of course it makes sense that Lionel would have been favored, given the fame and marketability of the Lionel name.

jonnyspeed posted:

It will run on DC or DCC with a transformer, DCC controller, or the Lionel handheld remote. The remote apparently uses Bluetooth so that means that you can also use a smart device and an app to control it as well. The Lionel electronics plug into a standard 9 pin DCC plug which means you can put a standard DCC sound decoder in if you like. This is the perfect approach IMHO. Kudos to Lionel.

Kudos are due to you Jonathan, and also Rusty Traque,  for the DCC testing and feedback from the "S" Gauge product line back a few years ago.  I used the core operating DCC code from the Flyer line to port into this product - and thus saved a lot of development time. 

I also followed the 9pin DCC connector standard for folks who want their own DCC flavored decoder.  Easy to pop  out the Lionel DCC, and plug in the DCC decoder of choice.  You will lose the BLE radio though, and certainly the BLE radio makes room for a lot of future growth in the product lines - as folks noticed.  Exciting times ahead!

SantaFeFan posted:

jonnyspeed posted:

It will run on DC or DCC with a transformer, DCC controller, or the Lionel handheld remote. The remote apparently uses Bluetooth so that means that you can also use a smart device and an app to control it as well. The Lionel electronics plug into a standard 9 pin DCC plug which means you can put a standard DCC sound decoder in if you like. This is the perfect approach IMHO. Kudos to Lionel.

Kudos are due to you Jonathan, and also Rusty Traque,  for the DCC testing and feedback from the "S" Gauge product line back a few years ago.  I used the core operating DCC code from the Flyer line to port into this product - and thus saved a lot of development time. 

I also followed the 9pin DCC connector standard for folks who want their own DCC flavored decoder.  Easy to pop  out the Lionel DCC, and plug in the DCC decoder of choice.  You will lose the BLE radio though, and certainly the BLE radio makes room for a lot of future growth in the product lines - as folks noticed.  Exciting times ahead!

You are too kind Jon. I'm just glad to see you are still there innovating behind the scenes!

Jon is this a sign that if the top brass wishes the engine control electronics could be standard across all lionel scales. If so we could operate any lionel engine,legacy,lionchief plus with what ever remote we desire. Legacy remote,lionchief remotes,dcc systems,transformer. This would mean someday your engines could be controled with the esu mobile control smartphone type handheld if so desired. That would be really great. Legacy is very user friendly now,but the esu remote looks even more user friendly and it is android. Perhaps it would work well with the lcs Icab app down loaded on it. After all it is a smartphone adroid type controller with train friendly controls built in. Just asking. I realize it is hard to please all crowds, but this is a step in the right direction. Thanks for bringing this to market. I will be getting one. 

Lionelzwl2012 posted:

Jon is this a sign that if the top brass wishes the engine control electronics could be standard across all lionel scales. If so we could operate any lionel engine,legacy,lionchief plus with what ever remote we desire. Legacy remote,lionchief remotes,dcc systems,transformer. This would mean someday your engines could be controled with the esu mobile control smartphone type handheld if so desired. That would be really great. Legacy is very user friendly now,but the esu remote looks even more user friendly and it is android. Perhaps it would work well with the lcs Icab app down loaded on it. After all it is a smartphone adroid type controller with train friendly controls built in. Just asking. I realize it is hard to please all crowds, but this is a step in the right direction. Thanks for bringing this to market. I will be getting one. 

I'm thinking BLE, Battery, and 2 Rail.  :-)

I misunderstood, so it will run DC, DCC and Lionchief Remote and with a new BT App. I like it, very well thought out to give all the options for control and not have to choose. I like htat you kep-t the detail down that will keep it within a reasonable price point for Christmas buyers. Kudos lionel and integrating all the control systems into one unit and giving the customer the option to change it if they like.

My bet is they are having Bachmann manufacture the engines.  At the price point with DCC/Sound, this very much looks like the Bachmann Berkshires.  I don't know how else they could meet that price point with new tooling.  Me second bet is this is simply Lionel maximizing their investment for the PE license and stretching it to another market.  I don't see it as them reentering the HO market at this point

Plastic boiler and no smoke, nobody mentions.

big-daddy-george posted:

Plastic boiler and no smoke, nobody mentions.

Most serious HO folks don't want smoke. It looks even less realistic than it does in 'O', leaves a film on the track that makes cleaning required more often, and the heat from the smoke unit can deform plastic loco shells. The plastic shell in itself isn't an issue, most of them are these days. And they're easier to detail than a cast metal shell.

A lot of excitement generated by this announcement and pre-order emails lining my inbox.  I'm happy for the HO enthusiast, but it isn't anything I'm interested in. PE set is what got me interested in O gauge and I have all but one of the add on cars, PE freight set, Polar RR rolling stock and engine, a PE coffee cup, all the added people, conductors hat (look silly as hell in the thing!), so I am all in - uncle. Don't have the room for the stuff I do own. I had HO trains growing up but never O gauge. I like the heft of the O gauge trains.

Still, wishing Lionel good luck with this as growth in any area of the hobby seems like a good thing.

Jon -- question.  You said "I also followed the 9pin DCC connector standard for folks who want their own DCC flavored decoder.  Easy to pop  out the Lionel DCC, and plug in the DCC decoder of choice.  You will lose the BLE radio though, and certainly the BLE radio makes room for a lot of future growth in the product lines - as folks noticed.  Exciting times ahead!"

So is the blue tooth connection sending DCC commands to the decoder?   Or is it a secret sauce stuff?

Len2 posted:

big-daddy-george posted:

Plastic boiler and no smoke, nobody mentions.

Most serious HO folks don't want smoke. It looks even less realistic than it does in 'O', leaves a film on the track that makes cleaning required more often, and the heat from the smoke unit can deform plastic loco shells. The plastic shell in itself isn't an issue, most of them are these days. And they're easier to detail than a cast metal shell.

You should talk to BLI and MTH before making those comments. I have been told exactly the opposite and have talked with many HO modelers that want smoke at shows.

"and the heat from the smoke unit can deform plastic loco shells"

I'm far from an expert in this area but a few days ago I just happened to run into the brand ESU which is known for its "LokSound" technology.   They also market some HO engines. 

They are or seem to be only european models but at least some seem to have metal shells & smoke units (possible then why they are metal).

http://www.esu.eu/en/products/engineering-edition/

And then some of these seem to be available through internet sales sources. ( for example:  http://www.eurorailhobbies.com...N=29&ER=&NA=) -- there may be other ways to get them for the interested.

Caveats: I don't own any, never seen them run or held one in my hand even ... just informational.

jonnyspeed posted:

Len2 posted:

big-daddy-george posted:

Plastic boiler and no smoke, nobody mentions.

Most serious HO folks don't want smoke. It looks even less realistic than it does in 'O', leaves a film on the track that makes cleaning required more often, and the heat from the smoke unit can deform plastic loco shells. The plastic shell in itself isn't an issue, most of them are these days. And they're easier to detail than a cast metal shell.

You should talk to BLI and MTH before making those comments. I have been told exactly the opposite and have talked with many HO modelers that want smoke at shows.

I've talked with many HO folks in the 15 years my repair shop was open, both at my shop and helping out in the hobby shop I was colocated with. BLI was out of the price range of 85% of our customers, and the MTH HO was 'special order only' because of it's price. The majority of HO locos with smoke had plastic boilers, and those boilers did get hot and sag over time from the smoke units heat. And most of the folks who insisted on a smoking HO loco ended up regretting that decisions, because the film the smoke leaves on the track does greatly increase the need for cleaning the track.

Here are a few pics of the polar express items.....  I took these at the nmra convention