Lionel HO...

and they've developed a new track system.  curious to see what it will look like in action.

Lets see: their own track system and their own control system. Sounds like they will be going after the Christmas trade. I cannot see any H.O. modelers being interested.

They have DCC built in as well. 

Couple any of these sets with one of Room Top Railways HO/OO ceiling layouts and the LionChief remote is ideal.

Nick

C W Burfle posted:

Lets see: their own track system and their own control system. Sounds like they will be going after the Christmas trade. I cannot see any H.O. modelers being interested.

These are basically HO Polar Express (which didn't sell well) sets with different decorations.  The locomotive pilot doesn't look like it'll be "de-Polarized" and there's no rivet detail on the passenger cars.  The detail level's nowhere near what the majority of the HO crowd expects.

I suspect Lionel is simply trying to recoup some of the HO PE tooling costs.  Like the HO PE, they'll probably be blown out by some of the big dealers next year.

Plus $22.99 for four pieces of 9" straight or 20" radius curved track?  Yikes!  Kato's HO Unitrack is only $13.50 or four pieces of 9.75" straight or 19.25" radius curves

Rusty

fastrack "magnelock" certainly seems interesting.   I just hope it's quieter than normal fastrack.

That is the history of Lionel. Over priced of the others as ( not sure this time but ) they have someone else make it and they have to make a profit but I bet as in the past it will be short lived. 

Yes, to be honest when Mth makes HO they at least make it D.Cc ready so if someone does want to convert it, however Lionel has made there own "knock off" ez track which may start a few wars between them and other companies, like bachmann may get into legal arguments due to the track having similar properties to eztrack.

Price point is too high for the beginner market that Bachmann owns in HO and equipment lacks the detail for the seasoned modeller so they have made a product that puts them into new product purgatory. And why make your own track? There are plenty of established and excellent track systems out in HO, why try to compete there. Im sorry Lionel but this latest venture into HO will again be a flop

RDGCO.Productions posted:

Yes, to be honest when Mth makes HO they at least make it D.Cc ready so if someone does want to convert it, however Lionel has made there own "knock off" ez track which may start a few wars between them and other companies, like bachmann may get into legal arguments due to the track having similar properties to eztrack.

Lionel indicates the track will be held together by magnets, Bachmann's EZ track uses fairly large molded in clips.  Atlas and Life-Like use different types of molded in clips than Bachmann.  Kato uses a removable clip with rail joiner.  All MSRP less than Lionel's HO track.  There will be no legal challenges regarding track.

The HO LionChief is supposed to have DCC code in it already, that's about the only thing it has going for it.   Still, it all boils down to the lack of detail on the equipment across the board.  The usual HO modelers will avoid these sets.  Look for them to be "blown out" in a year.

Rusty

Lionel and the HO market.  Lessee, is this the fourth or fifth attempt in their history?  

I believe it might have something to do with the PE licensing ?....   Just a guess.

Well are they getting into HO or trying to get people into Lionel...  or maybe they don't know but hope to make more money.

Severn posted:

Well are they getting into HO or trying to get people into Lionel...  or maybe they don't know but hope to make more money.

Well, the problem is is that Lionel is making ho equipment that has no relations to other Ho manufacturers. For example, you can pair up equipment from all different manufactors of ho, like you can have a BLI engine with a Intermountain engine and there won't be a problem. The problem with them is that there asking a whole new system, and whole new track type that when children's parents buy for there kids thinking they'll be able to use it with there other stuff, they'll complain it can't hook to Bachman or Kato track. In such, the whole idea is a bust because if you can't sell it to kids who can't use it with other equipment, dn you can't seek it to more experienced modelers who know what there doing, there's no point of making it. I don't honk Lionel Ho will even make it to 2020 at this point.

Some great thoughts and responses here, the funny ones, especially. Lionel has the name. Don't think that that is not uppermost in the minds of the pinheads at Lionel (to borrow a funny but derogatory term from David Letterman).

My son is into HO and because dad's a Lionel guy he wanted some HO by Lionel. Lionel HO (50s stuff- whether used well, hardly at all, still new in boxes or mostly "in need of TLC" goes for way too much on the Bay or private purchases, etc. The name often means more than the inherent designs and flaws, sad to say. New Lionel HO may outperform a lot of expectations when it comes to dollars spent by people who are not train nuts, like us...

Virginian65 posted:

New Lionel HO may outperform a lot of expectations when it comes to dollars spent by people who are not train nuts, like us...

I guess that's why the previous HO Polar Express was being blown in September out at super bargain prices by several big dealers.

This was one of them: https://ogrforum.com/...ress-super-sale-deal

I expect these new sets will suffer a similar fate.  Not everything Lionel touches turns to gold.  Remember Mega-Tracks way back in 2017?

Rusty

RDGCO.Productions posted:

they'll complain it can't hook to Bachman or Kato track. 

I wasn't aware that Bachmann or Kato track systems were compatible with each other either...

Rusty Traque posted:

Virginian65 posted:

New Lionel HO may outperform a lot of expectations when it comes to dollars spent by people who are not train nuts, like us...

I guess that's why the previous HO Polar Express was being blown in September out at super bargain prices by several big dealers.

This was one of them: https://ogrforum.com/...ress-super-sale-deal

I expect these new sets will suffer a similar fate.  Not everything Lionel touches turns to gold.  Remember Mega-Tracks way back in 2017?

Rusty

The Lionel PE failed because it wasn’t a set. Ala carte hurt the sales of this as well as being $$$. 

SantaFe158 posted:

RDGCO.Productions posted:

they'll complain it can't hook to Bachman or Kato track. 

I wasn't aware that Bachmann or Kato track systems were compatible with each other either...

They aren't compatible with each other.

Stuart

I wasn't aware that Bachmann or Kato track systems were compatible with each other either...

In "N" gauge Kato makes adaptor tracks to join with standard Atlas style snap track.

If you go to the store and buy a Bachmann HO thomas & friends set -- which I've done.   You get an engine, some cars, a loop of track and  DC controller -- a figurine too.  No sounds -- well maybe these days a little bit of sound but no DCC control that I'm aware of.  

Here you get similar but railsounds, and the lionchief remote -- and the catalog says you can control it with DCC or DC as well...

And it's plug compatible with standard DCC controllers (although you'll lose the lionchief remote)... if you decide it might be fun to do that which some of us do find to be fun.

The bachmann stuff -- which I like -- doesn't really work for little kids as well as one hopes -- it's hard to put the track together (even though it's "easy" -- getting the track joiners right is a chore) and the engine/cars fall apart in little hands.

So to me this offering seems promising -- the track seems like it could be easier to put together,  the sounds should be nice,  the controls are a bit better out of the box -- and more flexible overall as it includes the DCC option, and maybe the engine/care are a little more sturdy, built a little more solidly for small hands.

It's appealing to me at least at face value.

e bachmann stuff -- which I like -- doesn't really work for little kids as well as one hopes -- it's hard to put the track together (even though it's "easy" -- getting the track joiners right is a chore) and the engine/cars fall apart in little hands.

I know what you mean. When we had a pile of that track, we found it tricky to get the joiners right. And once they were damaged, the joiners were hard to replace.
My experience with N gauge Kato Unitrack was much better. The joiners are molded into a plastic base. The base seems to guide the track into the joiner. And if one becomes damaged, they snap out. Plus you can get insulated joiners.

If you go to the store and buy a Bachmann HO thomas & friends set -- which I've done.   You get an engine, some cars, a loop of track and  DC controller -- a figurine too.  No sounds -- well maybe these days a little bit of sound but no DCC control that I'm aware of.  

How do the prices compare?

New HO track system?  Athearn packages their starter sets with nickel silver EZ Track by Bachman and is priced competitively with other manufacturers sets.

C W Burfle posted:

If you go to the store and buy a Bachmann HO thomas & friends set -- which I've done.   You get an engine, some cars, a loop of track and  DC controller -- a figurine too.  No sounds -- well maybe these days a little bit of sound but no DCC control that I'm aware of.  

How do the prices compare?

Bachmann's HO Thomas sets range from $175.00 to $235.00 MSRP.

Rusty

http://www.jrjunction.com/cgi-...=action&key=5351

LOCOMOTIVE FEATURES: See-through cab windows Factory installed Celcon handrails 5-pole motor with precision-machined flywheels and multi-link drive train for trouble free operation DCC Ready 8 and 9 pin plugs Illuminated front and rear headlights Nickel plated, blackened machined wheels Wheels with RP25 contours operate on all brands of track Replacement parts available including motor brushes FREIGHT CARS FEATURES: Weighted for optimum performance 50' Boxcar includes operational sliding door 50' Gondola includes removable container load Machined RP25 profile 33" solid nickel silver metal wheels TRAIN SET FEATURES: Fully-assembled and ready-to-run out of the box Painted and printed for realistic decoration Highly detailed, injection molded body McHenry operating scale knuckle couplers Athearn TrainPak power supply Three freight cars with a matching caboose EMD GP38-2 or GP50 locomotive 36" x 45" oval of Bachmann E-Z Track with gray roadbed.

If you want to move to DCC you have to buy the base and remote.  They are not exactly cheap.  And it's entirely clear when you buy these starter sets that's what you want to do -- because you don't know about it.    Then you when you learn about it, and look into the DCC base pricing -- it seems pricey.  And it's complicated -- complicated enough you figure the kids will shred the stuff into bits.  So it's not a good entry path for little kids -- it's not set up that way.   What you have are adults buying this stuff, not the kids. 

So, I think Lionel is trying something there -- and I credit it them with that.  But will it work in the market place.  well we don't know for sure, I agree...

It remains to be seen how well magnets hold MagneLock track (Notice it's not called FasTrack?) together under use, particularly on uneven surfaces or if it gets bumped and what means there is to transfer power from section to section.  Right now, I can't think of anyone from Brio on up who uses magnets to hold track together.

As to the trains themselves, what happens if someone wants another locomotive?  The four sets are the same thing in different flavors, each tied to their own remote.  If someone goes out and buys a Bachmann, MRC/Model Power or Athearn locomotive, they're going to have to by something to power it, unless they use the BlueTooth feature and buy a Bachmann EZ app locomotive, which runs around $235-$245 MSRP per locomotive.

There's a whole world of other HO trains out there at various price points.  Here there are no extras except for straight and curved track.  

Rusty

So I've wondered the same thing -- and one of the ideas that came to me was this:  maybe they'd license the flyer chief to other manufacturers.  Just a thought but I can't quite see why they'd be against it -- since as everyone has noted. HO is this huge existing market place they are not taking over.  You know the DCC controller folks could probably do it "easy" -- and that'd be a nice but simple addition for them that would allow for more options.

Severn posted:

So I've wondered the same thing -- and one of the ideas that came to me was this:  maybe they'd license the flyer chief to other manufacturers.  Just a thought but I can't quite see why they'd be against it -- since as everyone has noted. HO is this huge existing market place they are not taking over.  You know the DCC controller folks could probably do it "easy" -- and that'd be a nice but simple addition for them that would allow for more options.

Lionel hasn't licensed the "Chief" operating systems in to anyone and isn't likely to, let alone in an area of the market where they would face the most competition.

Rusty

I can't second guess them, but it would make some sense to me at least.  That's my free advice to them then.  I hope they take my wise council.

IMHO, Big Mistake.  They will get clobbered.  Somebody will get fired.

Next year they will announce waffle irons and garage door openers.

I believe this could be a good move (good product) to get young people started in the hobby. I got started in 1953 with a Lionel O-27 starter set. The loco and cars lacked added on detail, but that was fine: less for little hands to break off. The track certainly looked nothing like real track, but I was 6 years old and didn't care. The drawback was the tubular track was hard for little hands to assemble, and the wires and clip-on were a hassle. The transformer controls were easy: speed lever, whistle lever, and direction button. I loved that train set.

I can see the same thing here - track easy to assemble for youngster, Dad, or both, simple control big enough for little hands, and cars which appear to be able to take rough handling. As long as it is rugged enough to be played with by youngsters, I think this might get beginners into the hobby. I would buy it for my grandson (if I had one) and have fun.

An update to my previous reply. I was planning to get one of these sets for my two nephews, until I started reading some of the reviews from parents/grandparents who gave these as Christmas gifts. The quality of the delivered product seems deplorable. Biggest culprit was the controller. The fact that there is a cell phone AP which seems to work is a work around. Second was the conductivity of the track.

So I still believe this was a great idea with terrible execution. If Lionel will spend some time on QC (quickly) I believe this could help the hobby. But..."It ain't no fun if the trains don't run"

" I started reading some of the reviews from parents/grandparents who gave these as Christmas gifts. "

I assume you mean Amazon.  I have found that a significant number of reviews of toy trains and airplanes on Amazon contain comments by (1) people who refuse to read or cannot follow instructions (more common than one might think) and (2)people who represent a segment of the population who have no talent for mechanical/electronic devices.  That is, the problems are mostly user error.  Thus I take these comments with a grain of salt.  I have six LionChief controllers over the last five years,  and have had zero problems with any of them over the years. I would be particularly skeptical about problems of that sort reported on a public website.

Good information - thank you. I want my nephews to have a good experience.

You're welcome. That's not to say there are no manufacturing or shipping induced problems in the hobby.  If you can, buy from a local retailer who will stand behind the product and exchange or fix any defective merchandise.  Price may be higher than Amazon, but headaches are likely to be better dealt with.  That said, Amazon takes back problem merchandise readily, so if you don't mind the hassle, Amazon can work out well.  Particularly if you are not experienced in the hobby, a local retailer who specializes in trains can be a godsend.