Lionel Legacy PRR L1 2-8-2 Mikado (from 2022 Vol. 2 catalog)

Here’s what I’m talking about Re: colors …

It looks like something “tuscan-ish” on the roof and maybe freight car red on the tender?

rplst8, Many thanks for starting this thread.

I read somewhere that the reds on  cab roofs and tender decks were different shades on Pennsy engines but unfortunately neglected to copy the source.  Perhaps a member more knowledgeable on these matters can chime in.

Just an FYI,  I emailed Ryan Kunkle of Lionel if the PRR L1 as well as the Strasburg #89 will have the swinging bell feature. This is what he replied with:

Mark,

Also to note. The" not shown" in the catalog 1627 ,has the red roof and tender dog house in images on dealer preorder pages.

I think that's the one I prefer.

I recall the discussion over the two different reds. Imo, even if it's accurate it looks terrible.

I wish Lionel could go back to the matching darker oxide red of the Legacy m1 and first run k4.

And don't forget the numbers used by other MFG's..

Williams #843 prewar version w/doghouse overhang

MTH #520 Postwar version w/doghouse overhang & Ps2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwFXrFvFH4Y

3rd Rail Prewar version #1164 Prewar w/doghouse overhang

3rd Rail Postwar version #762 w/ Doghouse overhang

http://www.3rdrail.com/images/PRRL1-PU.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6umTMXpuNo

Many L1's were equipped with cab signals, the electronics of which were located in a wooden box mounted to the right side running board in front of the reversing gear, but aft of the smoke-box.......

So, what is the wooden box on the left side running board of #1369 with the train antenna? I wonder if the electronic gear was relocated to the other side to avoid interference with the train antenna function, or whether this box contained elements of the antenna electronics?

I also agree that the shades of red between the cab roof and the tender deck is strange but possibly they wanted a brighter shade of red with higher contrast on the tender deck for safety reasons.....especially at night for personnel servicing the tender????

I do hope that the red is the right red in both places, meaning that the catalog art is not the correct one. Are they supposed to be the same color red?

Re: cab roof and tender deck painting, here you go.  Be sure to read the whole thing.

In June 1942 some engines had their pilot beam mounted marker lights move to the smokebox using oblong multi-lens marker lights.  Not sure if any of the Lionel models have this configuration.

PRR stopped using classification lights in 1940, so if the engine has both classification lights on the smoke box and marker lights on the pilot beam, that configuration would put it between 1922 to 1940.

You can thank Ed Rappe for the data (hope I got it right).

@SusieQ posted:

Many L1's were equipped with cab signals, the electronics of which were located in a wooden box mounted to the right side running board in front of the reversing gear, but aft of the smoke-box.......

So, what is the wooden box on the left side running board of #1369 with the train antenna? I wonder if the electronic gear was relocated to the other side to avoid interference with the train antenna function, or whether this box contained elements of the antenna electronics?

The boxes were steel with straps to hold the access doors closed.  The box on #1369 is the Trainphone equipment box, which was standard on all PRR locomotives equipped with Trainphone.  The Lionel box looks too small to me, relative to what it should be.  See the prototype #1369 photo referenced by Norm Charbonneau in Pennsy Power II.

Here is a photo of O-scale Trainphone (on left) and cab signal (on right) equipment boxes on the running board, to the right of the cab, on my Weaver RS-3.

@Bob posted:

Re: cab roof and tender deck painting, here you go.  Be sure to read the whole thing.

Great info.  Thanks.

How many prior models/releases have been done of the L1 with postwar modifications? I know 3rd Rail has done them, but I don't know who else. I am not a Pennsy afficionado and never took notice of the different smokebox configurations in general (except for the M1a and M1b), but I'd like to have some Pennsy power on my layout.

If postwar modified L1 models are uncommon I may order one of those, a quick search showed a few prewar L1s for sale but I did not see any postwar modified, so I am curious what others typically see.

@Bob posted:

Re: cab roof and tender deck painting, here you go.  Be sure to read the whole thing.

This is awesome, thanks! So the roof would have been darker, with equal parts freight car color and black, and the tender top deck just freight car color.

That said, the red on the Warren G. harding funeral set K4s is BRIGHT red. It’s not freight car color.

I’ll take some pictures and post them next to MTH and other examples I have.

For those who might be interested, I checked the cab numbers of the PRR engines to see when they were retired.  All made it to post-WWII so either configuration would work for those numbers.  In the catalog, the pictures of 1343 and 1627 are post-WWII, the other three are pre-1946.  Keep in mind some pre-1946 configured engines remained that way to the end of PRR steam in 1957, but I can't find that information.

Lehigh and New England bought four in 1941, so their engines would be pre-WWII and the catalog picture looks correct.  Not sure what mods they did after they bought them.

Detroit, Toledo, and Ironton bought their two in 1948, so again the catalog picture is correct.

The Santa Fe bought their three in 1945 so the dynamo is correct but I don't see any marker lights in the catalog picture.

Looks like Lionel did a good job on their research for these.

@RickO posted:

I recall the discussion over the two different reds. Imo, even if it's accurate it looks terrible.

I wish Lionel could go back to the matching darker oxide red of the Legacy m1 and first run k4.

Agreed. This looked the best from a visual appearance. MTH models had the same shade of paint on cab roof and tender deck (there's was a little brighter, but the concept holds).

I think the engines at RRMPA have same shade on cab roof and tender deck. I will have to look from the catwalk next time I go.

The PRRT&HS have an extensive modeling division - they would be good to ask. For those who are invested - I recommend contacting the Chairman of their modeling committee. His contact info can be found in page 2 of their latest newsletter which is publicly available through their website.

@0-Gauge CJ posted:

How many prior models/releases have been done of the L1 with postwar modifications? I know 3rd Rail has done them, but I don't know who else. I am not a Pennsy afficionado and never took notice of the different smokebox configurations in general (except for the M1a and M1b), but I'd like to have some Pennsy power on my layout.

If postwar modified L1 models are uncommon I may order one of those, a quick search showed a few prewar L1s for sale but I did not see any postwar modified, so I am curious what others typically see.

I’m really excited about the L1, but I’m much more into the pre-war style headlight location. That said, it’s going to be hard not to order one in the post-war configuration too.

The PRRTH&S did a great review of the BLI PRR L1's (both pre and post war) - they compare to the prototype details between pre and post war versions. The article provides great info on the prototypes - very informative for this thread.

See pages 6-14 of this newsletter.

@rplst8 posted:

I’m really excited about the L1, but I’m much more into the pre-war style headlight location. That said, it’s going to be hard not to order one in the post-war configuration too.

The only thing more exciting would be  those Mth L3 and L4 mohawks...with legacy😉

I could sure go for one of each  of the L1s too, but then that ruins the concept of a sub $1000 Lionel loco purchase😃

Since we're fussing about L1s details, everyone should be aware that the tenders on all but the Santa Fe version are incorrect.  As Ed Rappe pointed out in this thread , MTH (and thus Lionel, since this is MTH tooling) re-used the short tender from the MTH I1s Decapod, rather than tool the correct tender for the L1s.  This is common in the diecast world, where tooling is expensive.  MTH re-used the tender from the PRR Q2 for their J1, Lionel re-used the tender from the PRR S1 on the T1, etc.

The bell and bracket also sit too tall (look at prototype photos).  Precision Scale sells brass castings for the correct PRR bell and bracket with air ringer mechanism.  Weaver got these details right on their H10s and L1s models.  So did 3rd Rail on their L1s and K-Line on their K4s.  Williams L1s and 3rd Rail I1s Decapods have big tall bells that can be removed and replaced by the Precision Scale parts.

@RickO posted:

I recall the discussion over the two different reds. Imo, even if it's accurate it looks terrible.

I wish Lionel could go back to the matching darker oxide red of the Legacy m1 and first run k4.

@Prr7688 posted:

Agreed. This looked the best from a visual appearance. MTH models had the same shade of paint on cab roof and tender deck (there's was a little brighter, but the concept holds).

I am technically not a rivet counter, but I do want my trains to have the correct paint schemes for my era.  Unfortunately, there were not a lot of color photos from the 40s/early 50s.  From what I have read, the engine cab roof and tender deck are not the same color.  I think MTH got it wrong and Lionel got it right.

Earlier in another topic I said there was nothing in this catalog for me.  However, the post-WWII version of the L1 is growing on me and should look good next to my 3rd Rail L1.

Thanks for posting the link to that thread Bob! I was a bit surprised to read that there were only 100 3rd Rails made. I feel pretty lucky to own one.

@RickO posted:

The only thing more exciting would be  those Mth L3 and L4 mohawks...with legacy😉

There's only one Mountain that has my heart and it's not a Mohawk. :-)

I could sure go for one of each  of the L1s too, but then that ruins the concept of a sub $1000 Lionel loco purchase😃

Ok, I guess I'll just run shorter trains.

@Bob posted:

Since we're fussing about L1s details, everyone should be aware that the tenders on all but the Santa Fe version are incorrect.  As Ed Rappe pointed out in this thread , MTH (and thus Lionel, since this is MTH tooling) re-used the short tender from the MTH I1s Decapod, rather than tool the correct tender for the L1s.  This is common in the diecast world, where tooling is expensive.  MTH re-used the tender from the PRR Q2 for their J1, Lionel re-used the tender from the PRR S1 on the T1, etc.

The bell and bracket also sit too tall (look at prototype photos).  Precision Scale sells brass castings for the correct PRR bell and bracket with air ringer mechanism.  Weaver got these details right on their H10s and L1s models.  So did 3rd Rail on their L1s and K-Line on their K4s.  Williams L1s and 3rd Rail I1s Decapods have big tall bells that can be removed and replaced by the Precision Scale parts.

The tenders may be incorrect, but without seeing them side by side it's hard to say how far off. It definitely doesn't look like the same tender to me, and even the two releases of the MTH L1s look to have slightly different tenders.

The paint colors will be different.  We all complained about the H10's a few years ago.  Lionel said that in real life they were different shades.  The tenders had more of a rust inhibiting red than the top of the engine.  Is that true I do not know.  But what you see, is probably what you will get.  You'll get use to it!

@rplst8 posted:

The tenders may be incorrect, but without seeing them side by side it's hard to say how far off. It definitely doesn't look like the same tender to me, and even the two releases of the MTH L1s look to have slightly different tenders.

The middle image (MTH catalog) shows a correct Weaver tender.  MTH often showed catalog images of Weaver PRR locomotives with MTH anaconda tethers.  The actual 20-3180-1 model had a tender identical to the bottom image.  See this listing:

https://www.trainz.com/product...riant=39262073946234

Thanks for clarifying those photos and posting the thread, Bob.

I've been eying the Weaver L1s for awhile since they seem to go around for reasonable money and I thought I'd upgrade it to ERR, but I think I still want to go for the new LEGACY model instead.

Tender-wise, it doesn't bug me too much. The Pennsylvania Railroad apparently mixed and matched tenders on their steam roster frequently (I say as I have a Lionel LEGACY B6sb with the square Atlantic tender sitting next to me).

I recall hearing at a Prototype Modelers Meet that the PRR steel steam engine roofs were painted engine color.

@rplst8 posted:

I’m really excited about the L1, but I’m much more into the pre-war style headlight location. That said, it’s going to be hard not to order one in the post-war configuration too.

I like the prewar version as well, but I can't really justify ordering more than one, if at all.

Brass Model

Question about the Train phone in general with regards to equipment with it, #1369 has it, but does that mean that they may or may not have a caboose with it as well on the same train? I had only read briefly about it on another post a bit ago. I don't remember if I had picked up the PRR caboose with it or not as that would have been a few years ago when that was offered. Just trying to understand if they would be paired together or not I guess.

I am surprised no one questioned why Lionel is not doing an Interstate RR version especially since Norfolk Southern thought enough of the rr to do an Interstate heritage unit. The Interstate bought 2 LS-1s after WWII. Here is my MTH L-1 from 2007.

@rplst8 posted:

I realize this topic is suppose to be about the Lionel model's, but since we are talking about the various tenders here are some images of my 3rd Rail.

The Lionel model has differences but looks pretty good to me.  Hard to compare due to angle.

Plus, 3rd Rail painted the tender deck red but the cab roof black.

What I would like on all the different models is an operating front coupler for switching.

Looks like Ryan and Dave said this will have the kinematic drawbar feature, so that's another plus for this locomotive!

On the no. 520 model in the set, they said it it WILL have the prewar look, but with the doghouse tender. Honestly, I think I'd prefer that look the most, even though the price of the set is a bit high.

Back on the subject of tender models, it could be that the sans-doghouse models might be closer to correct.

@Norm Charbonneau’s mention of the 1369 shots in Pennsy Power and Pennsy Power II got me looking. On page 39 of PP II, 8155 is pictured with a 90F66 tender that has straight (not angled) coal bunker sides.

@Mikado 4501 posted:

On the no. 520 model in the set, they said it it WILL have the prewar look, but with the doghouse tender. Honestly, I think I'd prefer that look the most, even though the price of the set is a bit high.

I would be highly interested in this as a custom run. Prewar look, red cab roof/tender deck, and doghouse tender.

I'm assuming it will have a Kadee mount on the tender but it would be cool if they could put one on the locomotive pilot too. It would probably be a pain to tool up though. Maybe I'll get lucky and the decorative scale dummy coupler on the pilot can get a grab on an 805. I really want to doublehead these engines since Legacy does such a good job at it and they should sound awesome.

I think this is the right place to ask about it, perhaps to point me into the right direction. I am not modeling any specific era, im just looking at what appeals me the most, but I want to make sure i got a clear undertanding of what may be proper. Im not too sure what considers pre war vs post war other than the headlight or what position is the headlight suppose to be at. They have some with the headlight infront of the dynamo, red cab roof and tender deck, but no dog house. They also have another variant that had the dynamo infront of the headlight, with a black cab roof and tender deck but with a dog house on the tender. I would like to get one where the headlight was infront of the dynamo, red roof and deck, but with the dog house, but it doesnt seem to be the case. What would be the next best option and why? Also it shows the 1369 has the experimental trainphone antenna on the loco but i cant find any records of this loco having the antenna or any pics of it online.  Does anyone have any info on this loco? One more, the cumberland valley wayfreight set describes a great scene, but i cannot find any pics or  info of the cumberland valley branch or the train that lionel modeled that was mentioned in the catalog. Does anyone have info on that as well?

@Allan Loczy posted:

I would like to get one where the headlight was infront of the dynamo, red roof and deck, but with the dog house, but it doesnt seem to be the case.

See my post above - I would like to see a custom run of this configuration. If there's enough traction I think we could get 40 orders.

Also it shows the 1369 has the experimental trainphone antenna on the loco but i cant find any records of this loco having the antenna or any pics of it online.  Does anyone have any info on this loco?

Pennsy Power records the trainphone on 1369 - here is a link to that page on the free online version.