Lionel Prices

Turtle7,

It seems to be the norm for manufactures to charge outrageous prices.

What happened to allowing children into this great hobby? 

I know there are a thousand excuses, but I say Bull!

If, overseas costs are cheaper than here in the good Ole' U.S. of A., then why such higher prices?

In addition to the high prices, the goodies malfunction immediately after being operated for a short time and sometimes right out of the box.
Ralph

If the prices are too high, you have a choice.....don't buy the product!!! Lionel charges what they want to because they know that there is a segment of the O gauge public that will buy their products no matter what the cost!!!!.................rogerw. 

i've done the math and compared to 1940 prices, adjusting for inflation, and NOT accounting for the labor involved in making a much easier plastic vs metal car, catalog prices are just about twice what they were 75 years ago.

 

didn't i see a Lionel factory employee picture years ago with a UAW union logo on it?

Turtle7, well now you went and done it.   I happen to agree with you, but do you have any idea the level of consternation you're stirring up among the "Lionel can do no wrong" crowd... simply by making such a sacrilegious inquiry like this??? 

 

I swear... it's like there's an unwritten rule in the Terms of Service, whereby nobody should ask logical questions nor make thought-provoking market analysis if they observe anything that seems amiss... without being labeled a whiner or complainer by some folks here.  (That's their problem by the way, not yours. ) 

 

This ought to be an interesting thread (if it doesn't get deleted).

 

David

Even at $80.00, you purchased it, because you COLLECT modern-era 6400 series cars, hence Lionel's pricing. 

Lionels prices are out to lunch,2000 bucks for a articulated engine, might as well buy 3rd rail as that is about their price or do what I am.  Buy the older lionel with just tmcc like the Joshua lionel cowen series challenger like I did for 900 and up grade with electric rr cruise m and the puffing smoke unit that gun rail john sells.  Got the same engine as the 2000 buck lionel with the same features for 1/2 the money.

You would think that the people who complain/inquire about Lionel prices would have learned by now. This conversation always comes up when Lionel releases a new catalog. But the crazy part is....the same people who complain about the prices are the same people who will go and purchase the product at MSRP. Why complain when you are going to buy the product anyway? As I said before.....believe it or not.....you have the final choice....to buy or not to buy. I'm not a big Lionel fan, but if its something that I want regardless of the price, I will purchase it and NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT THE PRICE!!

Manufacturers charge what they think we are willing to pay. You can buy a Chinese-made toaster or blender that has a motor, heating element or some other construction that is far more complex than the average freight car for a fraction of the price. We are an addictive market with too much of a "gotta have it" mentality for our own good. I'll bet a majority of us have far more equipment than we can run on our layouts, and I doubt much of it is being bought for display purposes either. Let's face it. They got us by the you-know-what. 

The manufacturers charge what they feel people will pay! That's the bottom line.

Lionel has the name associated with it, so you pay more for Lionel. 

 

However Lionel is not the only company to raise prices. Have you looked at Williams by Bachmann? They have gone up almost 150% in the past year, and they don't have command control. 

 

Lee Fritz

German you are correct, especially your last sentence!!!

Ralph

Nobody has a gun to anybody's head forcing him or her to buy these products.  I really don't understand the problem.  Plus there are alternatives.    

 

It's not that I think Lionel can do no wrong.  But I do doubt any of the O gauge manufacturers are making a killing - I suspect it's more like they are trying to make enough of a profit to justify staying in this market.  But however they come up with their prices, nobody is forced to buy their products or pay their prices.  They are in a competitive market and they are staying alive - more power to them all, however they do it!

LOL, Menards can get their boxcars to the USA for $20 to $25, Lionel wants $70 to $80 for their traditional type boxcar. Lionel is laughing all the way to the bank, good for them, apparently there are plenty of folks that will buy em at that price.

 

   Bill T.

First, I agree with David.   I have a saying "If you can get it($$$), then get it($$$$)".  Lionel is not forcing anyone to buy there products at there prices.  It you believe Lionel is overcharging for Train gear, buy from another train company.   But I agree that Lionel is on the high end when it comes to price.    MTH is always more bang for your buck.  But I believe that will change at some point.

I have quite a bit of Lionel's high end stuff but have never paid close to retail for it. I follow the FSOT forum and secondary markets like eBay. I have a lot of cars that listed for $60, $70 and up that I paid $25-$50 for per car. As for getting kids into the hobby Lionel created the Lion Chief line for just that purpose. And pricing is based on market science. The idea that Lionel is gouging its consumers is silly. They leave that to the cable, wireless and utility companies where we really DO have no choice. IMO, Lionel by far makes the overall best quality rolling stock for the money. You get what you pay for.

Then don't buy the stuff...

 

 

Scott,

 

I respectfully disagree that Lionel makes the best products, all the time.  But I agree regarding buying used train gear as an option to buying retail.

Better then that, Menard's has thrown out the window the reasons given in every argument I've heard over the past few years legitimizing current high prices.

Joe

A dollar in 1953 had the same buying power as $8.91 today.

 

Bureau of labor statistics cpi calculator

 

A high-end O gauge set with a berkshire engine sold for $69.50 in 1953. That's $619.37 in today's dollars.

 

So, is the price of the boxcar really out of line?

you over paid.

 

6-82739

It's all very simple.  Others have alluded to it or outright said it already in this thread.

 

If you don't like a price, don't buy an item.  This is a hobby.  It's not food or gasoline.  You don't HAVE to have something in a hobby.  Despite all the sentimental value of our trains, any of the companies are just that, a company.  Their job is to make money for themselves and the investors. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

"We" have the ultimate power.  It's called don't buy something you feel is too expensive.

 

 

 

Pricing is nuts simply because people pay it.  With our aging demographic Lionel will have 2 choices: bring pricing down to realistic levels or go the way of the dodo.   Personally, I do not pay a premium for the color of the box nor name printed on it. I just purchase on the secondary market or not at all.

-Greg

I think when we go back and write the recent history of O gauge trains we will find that low cost items disappeared from the market with the consolidation of Sanda Kan and Kader and the economic crisis of 2008.  Kader drastically cutback the financially challenged Sanda Kan's client list and presumably raised prices. Then Lionel dropped K-Line by Lionel, MTH Rugged Rails quietly disappeared for the most part.  The economic crisis led to train manufacturers focusing on higher end models where there was still disposable income for toy trains, while in the lower end disposable income had dried up.

 

I think the reason for the high prices is the new technology. When Hewlett Packard was asked why ink is so expensive they cited the technology that lets you print hundreds of pages with less than four ketchup packets of ink. New technology captures the attention of the market and opens pocket books.  How many conventional new issues are there these days?  Even Lion Chief is new technology for O gauge even though radio control has been used for G scale for years. MTH will soon follow suit with its own radio control.

 

 

Its interesting this should come up now.  Tonight I sat down and calculated the price paid to catalog price. I've bought a WBB 43262 4 car reproduction set from Trainworld on special at 27% of catalog price. Two other WBB Golden Memories items I picked up for 46% of catalog.  But generally most of my items were for about 70-80% of catalog price.

 

I like looking for set breakups from dealers or on eBay. I've picked up a new basic Lionel gondola for as little as $12. In recent years Lionel has offered a decent 0-8-0 and a FT diesel in their sets.

 

Still, there are some items that are unreachable at good prices.  I was looking at the 2012 Signature Catalog and the Standard O Scale Pacifics.  For a Alton Limited or Blue Comet Pacific it was over $1000.  I doubt that level of detail or finish will appear in a Lion Chief Plus Pacific. 

 

I've noticed that Lion Chief Plus engines often are listed in the catalog for exactly the same dollar amount as a Lion Chief set.  

In This current Lionel catalog there are few things I will spend money on, I will get a few of the double door 86' boxcars because I think I really like them, however retirement is coming and I will need to watch the bucks and also paying six hundred plus for a diesel will never happen. 

Toy trains have always been a luxury purchase - a Lionel or American Flyer train under the Christmas tree was a significant purchase, especially when dealers had to sell trains at list price.  Up until the mid 1950s, fair trade laws allowed manufacturers to dictate the retail price of goods; even after fair trade laws were struck down, toy trains sold at discounted prices were a major purchase decision.

Well guess I'm the exception to the rule RogerW and a few others I do not buy there high price items I'm happy buying stuff someone decides they don't need a few years later for about 1/2 the price I really can't see the price for some of this stuff that is out there I teed off bachmann once by asking why they didn't put realistic MFSR pricing in there catalog on there forum when they know just about every dealer reduces the price about 25 - 33% as  they know they can't get there crazy prices that was about 4 or 5 years ago. ( yes they deleted that post the next day ) but it was the truth then and still is in most cases today about Williams. But the point I'm trying to make is lionel is so outragouses on there prices they could do the same reduction in most cases I'm sure they said they where moving overseas to cut cost well we didsn't see no cost savings in fact all we have seen every year since is price jumps sometimes large ones  It is getting to the point there going to price them selves out when the collect wakes up and see's they are being taken advantage of until then they will keep doing it 

This is the problem with all these "pricing" threads.

 

"I know this has been discussed " ad nauseum"-but, hopefully someone from Lionel will read our concerns with a logical/understanding mind"

 

Turtle, you ask Lionel to read with a "logical/understanding mind"… 

 

It would GREATLY help them to respond if you only YOU had just provided the same courtesy as you are requesting of them.

 

OK, you say the price is too high, fair enough.

 

Then you must provide some of the following:

 

What should the price be?

How did you come to this "price" that you will pay, be specific please.

How many will you buy at that price?

How much should the dealer make?

         

The point of your thread would be much more relevant then just stating the price is too high.

 

BTW, you not alone in this almost everyone that has complained about the price being too high has failed in this same vain. It is very difficult to take the thread seriously if you don’t provide some facts to support your claim.

 

I look forward to your answers so as to move the discussion to more thoughtful dialogue.

 

Charlie

 

 

in 1953 a 6464 boxcar sold for $5.50.

 

$5.50 x 8.91 = $49

 

so, yes.

 

 

Yea…I agree with Charlie.These trains cost a fortune because they cost a fortune to make.We all have a choice.We don't have to pay the prices if we don't want to.I buy most of my trains from the secondary market,Lionel can ask $500.00 for a box car for all I care. Nick.

I like Lionel but they are offering overpriced Chinese junk.

Like a lot of other things guys this is a hobby, and hobbies require that cash after all the bills have been paid.I agree with a lot that has been said here. It is buyer beware. There are not too many items that come out that I absolutely have have to have.

 

When there is, I shop for those items, I'll probably check most of the OGR retailers. It is very seldom that I pay retail for trains or anything else for that matter.

 

If not there, then I buy 2nd hand or just wait for someone to sell the item after it has been out for a while. Will I ever own a $2,000 engine? Probably not for a few reasons.

First, I can have just as much enjoyment running what I already have or items of much lesser value. Second, I work too hard for my $$$ to plop down 2 grand for an engine. I would rather buy something for the wife or household and have $$$leftover. 

 

JoeG

 

 

O scale?

WHY WHY WHY.... these pricing threads should be an AUTO DELETE!

OOhh  goody.  There hadn't been an "overpriced Chinese Junk" comment in this thread yet.

 

I almost have BINGO on my card.....

 

As for the math, I believe the raw computation does not take into account the differing quantities in production.  Certainly more little boys were getting Lionel Trains in 1953 than are today (and we the collectors/operators are not making up the difference, aging demographic, etc).  When you make less of something, they cost more per item under mass production.

 

I'm not quite sure why these threads continue to pop up, but I am going to add my thoughts to the pile anyways. It is simple economics. Laws of supply and demand. Choosing a price point where the most profit can be made. Think of it this way (sample numbers, not saying these are accurate). Say the cost of producing an item is $35 for the first 100 made. Then the cost of making the item goes down to say $15 because the cost of design and tooling is covered and now its just materials. So say Lionel can sell 500 of an item for $60. That's a profit of $20500 split between Lionel and the dealers. Now lets say they can sell 350 for $80. That's a profit of $20750 split between Lionel and the dealers. Now as I said these are just numbers for illustrative purposes. But the point is that while they only sell 70% of the cars they could have sold at the lower price, they still make more profit. As a business it is about the bottom line. At some point they will reach a spot where the price goes too high and the profits drop. When they get there, they will adjust the price back down to where they maximize profits. Simple economics.

 

For me personally, I do find the $80 boxcar price a bit high. But it isn't going to stop me from buying. It just causes me to adjust how much I buy to stay within my budget. I get less items for the same money essentially.

 

Anyways, in the end, it is a personal choice. Spend what you want to spend. Buy what you want and can afford to buy. If you believe an item costs too much, then don't buy the item or wait until you find a great deal. But remember that this is a hobby. It is supposed to be fun. Don't forget that.

 

This is like voting. If you didn't vote, you can't complain.

 

Yes Lionel is expensive, you get what you pay for most of the time kinda. Do you NEED it? No. It's just another thing on the shelf eventually.

 

Deal with it or don't pay for stuff new.

But, bigdodgetrain pointed out he purchased poorly.($54.95) Yes, the msrp is more.

I really want a Rolex .... But why is the watch I want $8,000?  Come on guys .... Lionel is in business to make money - end of story .... I bet kids that actually got a model train in the 30's, 40's and 50's were in the minority.  Model trains are toys that require discretionary funds.  

 

For me, I buy when items go on sale OR I will by used.  That seems to be working for me.  My LHS has a once a year big sale a few weeks before Thanksgiving.  This is typically when I buy rolling stock.  Maybe 8 - 10 new cars.  I avg. one new engine a year that my son and I save up for - we only by Legacy engines now. 

I agree with David, we have the ultimate power to buy or not to buy.

 

So that is why I am more into the used market today, lower prices. 

Also don't have to wait and see if something will be made even though it was in a catalog. My opinion of current catalogs is they are wish books! Wish it was made!!

 

Lee Fritz