lionel vision loco's need your thoughts ASAP

i promise to pass tis along at the meeting!

Good luck, and thank you. Your points are well taken.  Please, campaign for a Veranda Turbine.  Tell them I'll buy two if they need a little encouragement.

On a related note... With the return of the TankTrain cars (in entire train sets as well as 2-pk/3-pk offerings) due in a couple of months, it would be great to have a few of these tankers done up with the Vision Line sond effects.

David

l would like to see a vision line Veranda Turbine

I agree a Milwaukee Road Hiawatha Hudson with Legacy is needed.  I would also go for a Dreyfuss Hudson.  Gotta have whistle smoke though.

Lou,

I think the B&O Trailer Jet is a little too low on the list and should be bumped up into the top 5. But then again, that could be my bias showing...

Just to re-itterate my previous post, I'd like this to be offered as a premium set, not a lower quality RTR set. Also, I'd like to see the 40'/45' trailers instead of the 20'.

Should there be any questions, refer to my signature.

i put that on the top 10 items. i would like to make the first vision set the trailer jet

I'm sure it will look great but will it have wireless tether, fatboy speakers and Lionels latest sounds?

Sunset/3rd Rail has indeed been using some large oval shaped speakers (fat boy?), plus some pretty new sounds from ERR, in their most current offerings. Their later SP GS-4 Daylight steam locomotive models have excellent sound, with the CORRECT deep "steamboat" whistle.

Concerning the "wireless tether", I personally do NOT care for the Lionel infrared drawbar, because it is extremely difficult to shorten its length, for closer coupling of the tender to the engine. Thus, the straight thru tether plug arrangement provided by Sunset/3rd Rail works very well for me, especial since it is under the cab deck plate anyway.

Just my opinions, yours may differ, but I MUCH prefer the higher boiler, appliance, and running gear details.

This might be academic since Lou presumably has been to see Lionel and they have the feedback from this thread, but I'll add another 1 cent's worth anyway.

THE most beautifully detailed model I have is a Sunset 3rd Rail AM-2 cab forward (followed closely by a DMIR Yellowstone). Not only is it a work of art, it runs great, smoke and all, as well as being a visual treat. It is a "to each his own"engine, partly because it looks like a small dog compared to a Lionel RS5 AC-12.

Sadly, these days I find that the detail work on such brass models is not matched by their running performance. I blame the foreign factories; the ones in Korea were once able to produce fine products but EVERY manufacturer has serious QC issues today.

And what's the point of having a display beauty that is a complete disappointment on the rails? There's thread on this forum about Lee Willis' recent experience that illustrates my point.

I think, FWIW, that the Vision Line actually addresses this problem by offering novel operating features, a high (not perfect) level of detail and novelty in terms of which engines are modeled. If that's something of a compromise I'm not only willing to live with it, I want to encourage it.

So I hope whoever Lou saw and spoke to got the message that we want (a) a cab forward with a swinging bell, air horn, steam whistle and a mass of lights as well as sequence control specific to crossing the Donner Pass and (b) a Veranda Turbine that cranks out smoke (from the angled turbine stack) like there's no tomorrow after a REALISTIC start up sequence like their HO Veranda has.

Hey thanks wston1156.  Like everyone here I really love toy trains!  I also really love the Vision Line and the excitement, wonder, and fun that these toys allow me to have!  Because I enjoy the Vision Line so much I really want Lionel to get it right.  While many of their products may not be developed and marketed for the "average" OGR forumite (whom I believe to be a more discerning toy train purchaser...okay maybe a little neurotic), I beleive the Vision Line is.  Therefore I hope someone at Lionel is actually reading this and considering this feedback as they plan for future Vision Line releases. 

As I read each of Hancock52's posts I found myself nodding my head in agreement.  Conversely, as I read Hot Water's I could not stop shaking my head.  Hot Water, you have a wealth of information and experience, but you just don't get the allure of the Vision Line.  I am not sure why you continue to post comments in this thread.  It is not your cup of tea, that is cool, we all get that, so go post about 3rd Rail engines in a 3rd Rail thread.

My point is, there have to be more consumers out there like myself, and Hancock52 and wston1156.  Hopefully Lionel will consider our feedback and make the fun and innovative products that we are clammering for....if they do they will get a lot of my money.

Thanks, and you are absolutely correct that I "don't get the allure of the vision line.". All that "whistle steam" effect and "super fat boy speakers", does NOT overshadow that fact that the whistle might be incorrect. Sorry.

I believe the thread asked for "thoughts" and feedback.  Hot Water is a wealth of knowledge and speaks from many years of experience.  I think he was just giving his take on the "allure" of Lionel's Vision Line from that perspective.  Even Lionel has to look at the reality of producing these "fun and innovative" trains that everyone may be "clammering" for. 

Ugh....from following the postings, looks like the word to Lionel is just what we need.  More steam that's already been made in one way or another.    To each his own I guess.

And how much more would you be willing to pay for all these extra super-cool, el-neato features, or would folks just expect Lionel toss them in for free?

Rusty

To be clear, I was not being sarcastic or facetious when I referred to Hot Water as a wealth of information. 

Edward,

Here is the original post...

HI GUY'S I'm heading to LIONEL this week on club business. Lionel has asked me to get some feedback on what us train guys really want. please be honest. All locomotives will be upgraded with additional details and all the vision/legacy electronics

I interpreted this post as a request from Lionel, working through Lou, to solicit feedback from those consumers that appreciate and purchase Lionel Vision Line toys.  It is an open forum and people are free to hi-jack threads and be as negative as they care to be. If the Vision Line is not your cup of tea and you have no desire to purchase a Vision Line toy then spare us from the negative comments and don't bother posting to this thread.  Is that unreasonable?  Lastly, I do not think nor did I post that everyone is clammering for Vision Line toys.  It is clear that the Vision Line is not for everyone.

Rusy,

What?  Why would anyone assume that a product with more features should cost the same as a product without those features?  That just makes no sense man.   I am sure you have noticed that Vision Line products cost more than other Lionel products.  If you don't appreciate/value the extra super cool el neato features of the Vision Line and/or you don't want to pay the premium to play with these toys then continue to not buy them.  Just because you don't want to spend the money on Vision Line toys does not mean that others won't. 

I will say I love my Lionel legacy steam locomotives but I could care less if the dropped the vision line all together, yes they have neat features but I would like to see those features in their entire scale line.

I would like to see Lionel improve on what they already have instead of adding unproven technology. The things I would like to see added is more and better detail

The Vision line does nothing but to give them the excuse to raise prices on a few select items.

What will be the price on the new vision line big boy due in 2014, $1999.00, $2199.00  $2299.00, MORE!!!! I will not buy at that price point.

Lets share the wealth thru the entire scale line not just the vision line.

I posted about Sunset/3rd Rail already having offered certain steam locomotive models so that ANYONE at Lionel wouldn't waste their time even considering a "one of" model, which had already been produced in brass. 

I think that you must mean "one off" and it's pretty obvious from what has been said already in this thread that scale brass models and Lionel Legacy/Vision models appeal to different markets. The production of brass Challengers and Big Boys, and AC-9's - I could go on and on - doesn't exclude Lionel making their own versions of these prototypes. I hope that they do. 

I agree with the comment made above that Vision steamers have been high priced - especially the initial ATSF Vision offering at over $2,000 that I did not buy. But some of the later Vision models, by which I mean the Genset and Hybrid diesels, were bargains at their pre-order prices. Just try getting one in the aftermarket, which is a situation that suggests to me that Lionel has and will sell out of any Vision model that strikes a chord among collectors.

That leads me to one last point: does anyone know how many units make up a production run of a particular Vision model? That would help us all understand the commercial dynamic behind this. I bet it's no more than two thousand units . . .

I would love a rerun of the K-Line SD75 2-11559 that Lionel shipped t KCCC members after K-line went belly up! A little better sound and operating fans.

Gunny

Good Day Gunny,

Great suggestion!

The Santa Fe SD75M’s would a very welcomed diesel locomotive. Add Legacy Control, RailSounds and a prototypical fuel tank and you have a winner! Put a pair of these together pulling an ATSF Intermodal train and you have a fantastic train.

Regards,

Swafford

Even the BNSF SD75M would be nice! 

I would like a model similar to the Reader #11 a 2-6-2.

Large locos not needed here.

How about a two rail loco that would not break the bank?

Mickey

Alright Lou,

Good luck, but keep in mind......since you started this freight-train-of-a-thread rolling, you better believe every one of us will be expecting the low down from you about what was discussed on your visit!

I`d like to see a Vision Line GG-1..

I would like to see about 10 correct UP passenger cars to go with all the UP power they already have, I am told correct cars have never been offered.

OK Lou, can you tell us what they said?? I appreciate that maybe you can't but I still feel compelled to ask what Lionel made of this.

+1; I appreciate Hot Water comments regarding the fidelity of a product.

While I have a number of 3rd rail engines (Lionel legacy also), I wish they (3rd Rail) could incorporate the numerous Legacy  features along with their excellent detail on their engines; but we know that Lionel will never let that happen.

I agree with you regarding your praise for the Sunset AM-2; keep wanting to pull  the triger on one.

A company called Berlyn Locomotive Works (now defunct) wanted to produce the AM-2 in G scale (brass) but went out of businees before they were able to so. If I remember correctly, it was originally offered for $6,000+ but when I saw the ad again it went to over $8,000.

What problems have you had with it (Am-2); for the most part I have had very good luck with my Sunset engines; only had to return one for repair.

Thank you.

Also always liked the grey boiler version of the DMIR yellowstone that they produced a number of years ago.

I've had no mechanical or electronic problems with my AM-2 or indeed any of Sunset's earlier TMCC steamers, including the DMIR, other than a couple of minor issues that were easily resolved. In one instance I had to have tender electronics replaced but they saw to that very quickly.

It's the more recent models that haven't quite been up to par, and it's clear to me that the problems lie in manufacturer's QC. The steam engines are still beautifully detailed but they simply don't run as smoothly at slow speed as the earlier ones did. The difference in my case is not such as to require return or servicing but it is noticeable. The differences between their sound, smoke and light features and Legacy models is now very apparent.

Good Day Lou,

Can you share with us any news from Lionel?

Regards,

Frank

What do you think Lionel could add to the JLC series?  They're pretty much top notch.

Maybe they could improve the pantograph operation so it could be used by the half dozen or so folks who run at least 072 and operating catenary. (my questimate on the number)

Lou, are you listening to/viewing any of this?

Anyway, JohnsGG1 puts his finger on one issue, which is that there is little that could be done to improve on certain TMCC engines. The JLC GG1 is a prime example because (a) what can you do to make an model based on an electric prototype more interesting as there's a limit to what can be done with the sound effects, (b) although MTH electrics have the option of using catenary power (as does the Lionel Acela, I think) as far as I can tell practically no one uses that option and (c) how would you improve on such nicely detailed die-cast bodywork? This and MTH's CSB&SS Little Joe are my favorite electrics and all I need in that department.

Of course, the JLC precedent has not stopped Lionel issuing the Vision Challenger with whistle smoke, dynamo smoke and an in-boiler speaker.

I still vote in favor of a Vision cab forward and Veranda turbine where despite the features of the previously issued models there's plenty of scope to issue versions with new features. I say nothing about using old tooling/dies (both models were die-cast).